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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Sinful on April 26, 2012, 08:48:59 AM

Title: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 26, 2012, 08:48:59 AM
WARNING - Very long post.

OK, so it has become apparent that Catlevania fans don't much care for game design & difficulty balance. Because then Dracula XX SNES would be more popular then Rondo PC- Engine, Bloodlines more popular then Super Castlevania, Adventure more popular then Legends, and Classic vania games more popular then Metroid vania games.

So yeah, there is no reason why this topic should not be intelligently discussed and flame wars avoided. This is a very deep subject that will open many gamers eyes is they're willing to accept that their fav games have flaws (all of the do).


So what should we start with? First I'll start with something very obvious and that it should help others get an idea of what I mean. Super Castlevania looks like a very well designed game, except that the hit the whip in every direction breaks many of the well placed enemies/level design in the game since you can whip so many through walls & from every angle enemies come from. It's like the designers designed the game without muti-directional whipping, then added it in near the end without enough time to make suitable changes (but if they would of made these changes, I think it would of changed the series way too much, and for the worse). Add in the whip brandish move to make thing seven easier still (I thought Death was way too hard until I remembered this move. Then he was a total joke, lol... Also helped a lot on Dracula).

Now to me, what Bloodlines team did was very smart in many ways. It seems like that team were on fire when they made this game. Plus the fact that the game is somewhat shorter then normal may of helped them focus more on perfecting what little they had. In this game they give you the best of both worlds; Classic vania games and Super Castlevania 4 (which is surprising why it's not more popular? Oh yeah, most people are very bias against Genesis games graphics & sounds. It can never be as good or better then SNES :P). Between the two characters you come pretty close to having enough of the whip angles from part 4. Though if you separate these characters, you get even less, yet a more tightly balanced and designed games as the result. (Man how I wish this game was more popular since fans could have added more unique characters focusing on some other angles, then more levels to make up for it's shorter length).

One thing I always hear Castlevania fans complaining about is what they call stiff controls due to no control over jumps and the flaw of knock backs. These aren't flaws. The game's controls are perfect. You can't overpower the main characters in videogames too much because it only makes tightly designing the games much harder (look at the Metroid vania games. They give you so many moves that it's virtually impossible for the designers to adjust every single thing in the game to every move. It's impossible. Impossible... If you can't accept this, then accept this, it will never be as tightly designed as if done otherwise). This is why some of the best classic are also the simplest. And why so many fan games fail, because their character has to be the ultimate childhood dream fighting machine, with weapons firing off in every direction at the same time & baddies way overpowered too to compensate (have fun balancing this mess). And vania games that don't have control jumps are properly designed with that in mind. Add control and it would break the game. Really wish more people would get stuff like this.

I guess I'll briefly explain briefly about Rondo. That games difficulty seems to be all over the place. That and it's not that hard outside of very few trial and error spots throughout the game. In comparison, Dracula XX is way tighter designed & with an increasing difficulty as the game progresses... Maybe because they didn't have as many levels & split paths to worry about, thus they received much more focus... Sadly most fans don't care about this as long as they have more content.

Also, another reason why people don't seem to like the better designed & balanced vania games is because most people like easy games. IGA knows this too apparently. And why all his games are pretty easy (the hardest metroid vania game wasn't done by him, apparently, + it's the least popular, no surprise). This liking easy games started with the 16-Bit era due to games getting more complex, and it exploded in full force during the 32-Bit era & especially afterwards. Games shouldn't be beatable from the start, and hard games have to be fun enough to stick with it... course it's hard to come up with a fun challenge, so...

Anywho, what I talked about here is also the reason why gaming industry is going downhill. Most gamers don't understand to support great game design & balance, thus all we get is poor game design & no challenge. As long as we have a ton of content & trinkets to keep us busy... yikes, is this why we have downloadable content abuse/scams! :o

So do you guys get what I mean? (I hope I explained things good enough, I suck at explaining) Can you figure out why Adventure is much better designed then Legends for the old Game Boy? And am I wrong with anything?
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on April 26, 2012, 09:01:59 AM
I'm gonna go ahead and move this back to Castlevania General Discussion.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Ahasverus on April 26, 2012, 09:23:21 AM
I agree. Castlevania I was so tightly designed it's mesmerizing today. The series became too much focused on style over substance over he years. not that it's bad otherwise we'd have probably a game similar to Ninja Gaiden (1-2.. I heard about a horrible third one but it was probably  bad dream). I think Castlevania fans are a strange beast. It's not that the pure gameplay is immaculated or intriguing per se I think we're more inmersed in theworld and how it all comes togheter techicalities aside. Still.. now that the aesthetics and stylish side of the series is strong enough I would like to come back to the technical side.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Nagumo on April 26, 2012, 10:22:38 AM
Though game design can make or break games (like Curse of Darkness) it certainly isn't everything. I think the reason why people don't really pay much attention to this is because overall the classic Castlevania games have the same level of design, except for a few that stand out but those are considered to be the awful ones most of the time. For example, I don't lose sleep over the original Castlevania probably having a better difficulty curve than Dracula's Curse despite the latter being one of my favorites.

Some fans already consider the level design to be sufficient and don't care too much about things like challenge and just want to emerge themselves into the game's world. Despite good game design should be celebrated when it appears, like how Ecclesia improved on the enemy placement and made it feel more satisfying to me to play through areas, it all depends on what we seek in games and what we consider to be good design. So I think it's a bit snobistic to say that "The older games are better because they have better balance and more challenge." while ignoring other qualites of the games you are comparing them to.
   
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Ahasverus on April 26, 2012, 11:00:22 AM
So I think it's a bit snobistic to say that "The older games are better because they have better balance and more challenge." while ignoring other qualites of the games you are comparing them to.
 
But we're not saying that. It's just that this main core of Castlevania has faded with the years(ecclesia being a grat exception and lok howit seems to be the most beloved of the DSones). Also it's great to see that attention to detail in older games when everythin was designed around gameplay.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: thernz on April 26, 2012, 12:18:16 PM
How does Dracula XX have better game design than Rondo when DXX has no thought put into its mechanics or level design?
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 26, 2012, 12:21:02 PM
How does Dracula XX have better game design than Rondo when DXX has no thought put into its mechanics or level design?

I could ask you the very same thing.... you start first.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Nagumo on April 26, 2012, 12:26:03 PM
But we're not saying that. 

Also, another reason why people don't seem to like the better designed & balanced vania games is because most people like easy games. ... 


To be clear, I understand why one would want good design, I just wasn't agreeing how good design should always be X and X because people care about different things in games.     
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Dremn on April 26, 2012, 12:29:40 PM
The only point I don't agree with in your argument is your stance on Dracula X:
Quote
In comparison, Dracula XX is way tighter designed & with an increasing difficulty as the game progresses... Maybe because they didn't have as many levels & split paths to worry about, thus they received much more focus... Sadly most fans don't care about this as long as they have more content.
There were far too many moments in Dracula X that made it more broken than Rondo. In most cases you had to be at the VERY edge of platforms in order to make jumps, and the broken collision with enemies guaranteed you taking twice the damage than you should. The overall feel of the gameplay felt "tighter," but there are still a lot of design decisions that hinder the overall flow of the game. It's not a BAD Castlevania game, but it's definitely not one of the better ones.

I think Castlevania 1, 3, Bloodlines, Belmont's Revenge, and ReBirth have some near perfect level design. IV was just a really fun game in general, everything about it felt good. It's understandable why people who appreciated the aforementioned games don't like it as much, but there hasn't been a Castlevania game that has felt that good since. That's just a personal feeling anyway. I would rather much have games that were more similar to Rondo, Bloodlines, and ReBirth. X68000/Chronicles gets a special mention too.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: thernz on April 26, 2012, 12:32:38 PM
all of the mechanics in rondo that were transferred to dxx are completely moot in the context of dxx. the dxx richter moves too slowly for the enemies, and the collision is awful. the level design is completely haphazard with no regard for intelligent or engaging enemy placement. none of the setpieces are well-designed, especially for the later levels. if anything, the only interest in dxx are floating platforms, but those completely ruin the pace and slow down things even more. besides new enemies, there is nothing to drive the player forward because the environments largely offer nothing new or exciting for the level design. cv1 and rondo have obvious themes running in the level design. dxx on the other hand is completely superfluous and is more like a series of disconnected rooms than coherently designed levels. there is no coherency on a macro-level in regards to level structure.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 26, 2012, 02:19:03 PM
is nothing to drive the player forward because the environments largely offer nothing new or exciting for the level design. cv1 and rondo have obvious themes running in the level design. dxx on the other hand is completely superfluous and is more like a series of disconnected rooms than coherently designed levels. there is no coherency on a macro-level in regards to level structure.

I was waiting for this reply. Style over substance. Sorry, this is off topic. But it's the #1 reason why people are fooled into believing Rondo is the better designed game. I don't care what the game looks like for this topic. All I want to know is about enemy placement, level layout, and how they balance and interact with the character. And this is where Rondo seems to fail for me in comparison to XX.

Some examples now fro Rondo; My that river raft sure looks beautiful, too bad from a gameplay perspective it's totally useless; My that section with swinging skeletons sure looks genius, too bad you can just skip past that whole section and make em all disappear by touching the door out of there; The only thing challenging in the ship level is maybe them birds... not really, and that's level 6 of 8.  :o Not looking good. Though Death seemed pretty tuff until I figured it out (sure wish I had Super Simon's brandish move at first); Dracula is the last boss? You sure fooled me; and for the rest, just play the game and see how the difficulty bounces up and down like crazy, with all these uniques enemies just placed all over the place with not much rhyme or reason but just because they look kick but and unique. And in the end, when you find everything, I doubt this game will challenge you anymore... But oooou, look at them pretty graphics & CD quality sound... yeah, this is fine too for replay, but off topic.

Now some quick example of why XX is genius; to save both hostages requires more skill, not just finding them or by luck. ie. Having to have the key (why basically handed to you) on you makes the level harder since you can't use sub-weapons fro the first half, then the second half too if your clever enough to figure this out. Tell me this is not brilliant. If you think it's only annoying, you've got much to learn still + you also have to make sure you don't fall in a certain area to even stand a chance to rescue them + the alternate routes are harder too. Sure many will complain because this is too challenging & that they want to see the entire game right away, but it's great replay incentive, what's the rush & what's wrong with that? And back then many people didn't have many games on backlog like nowadays + if you like a game very much, don't you want it to give you more replay incentives?; why is Richter's speed brought into this conversation? Don't worry about it, the game is balanced around the speed set just fine (maybe they knocked it down because it made the game too easy or didn't fit well enough with what they designed?); Sure the levels don't go all crazy and on inclines like Rondo and what not, but they sure are tighter designed for a more controlled difficulty; enemies were balanced to be more of a treat then when they weren't much of or at all in Rondo + placed better of course; Now this game has a last boss worthy of being last boss; I didn't see any problems with hit detection when I played through this game, and if there is something that surprised you, remember it for next time, it's that simple (what, you want me to complain about why you can't duck over high axe tosses in Rondo too, even though it looks like I should be good? Come on, the hit-box was more then likely done this way intentionally + balanced the game according to what it is).


And sure, to me style in videogames is very important too. VG Maps and Spriters resource are probably the best websites in my view. There is nothing more the a well drawn map & sprite to make me more gaga... but let's not talk about this, please. Or how Super Castlevania 4 is still my fav or what not.  Yeah, yeah sure, whatever, I like Castlevania games too.



To be clear, I understand why one would want good design, I just wasn't agreeing how good design should always be X and X because people care about different things in games.     

I guess I'm not smart enough to fully figure this out as to what you might mean?... I think I brought this difficulty thing up because it has a great impact on game design. Sure there should be both hard and easy games to suit each mood (I know my moods changed from hard to easy games quite a few times already), but do all games have to be easy nowadays? Or better yet, do all Castlevania games have to be easy & broken nowadays? Why can't I wish for one more old school challenge style Castlevania in the very simple classic style with the same classic Konami genius design? (This means made in-house by Konami & no whip that has more angles then Bloodlines & no more then the classic sub-weapons for other weapons... though I could do without the knife and clock just like how Bloodlines was smart enough to say no too.. anybody use these things anyway?... oh, and no more backtracking. I find it kills the repaly big time + it's boring).
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Abnormal Freak on April 26, 2012, 02:29:54 PM
Despite my enjoyment of DXX, the level designs and enemy placements are fuckin' sloppy and there's never really any good place but one to use the backflip—and the SNES team messed up the controls on that. In terms of level design, both aesthetically and functionally, there's not a whole lot interesting going on with the game.

Is it more difficult than Rondo? Yeah. Mostly because it plays so much differently you have to get used to the way it does things and not play it as you would Rondo (e.g., you can't whip the werewolf when he's spinning toward you to knock him back). Some of the jumps are kinda tricky. But the game is ugly (speaking the designs, not the art which is great) and the designs not exactly the most fun or intriguing.

Rondo, on the other hand, never feels that way. It feels like a complete game, and reaching secret areas and alternate paths is so much more thought-out and rewarding. There are several places which to use the backflip which come in handy. Take away all the nifty extras that enhance the gameplay in small ways and the core design structure is a million times better than DXX—but with all those extras and pretty graphics and great tunes, the game is made all the more fun, because presentation means A LOT.

So yeah, bro. I was kinda with you until you implied that DXX should be more liked than Rondo for "TRUE GAMING ENTHUSIASTS WHO LIKE A CHALLENGE," lol.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Abnormal Freak on April 26, 2012, 02:33:54 PM
Also, so many of the baddies in DXX can be killed by standing behind a block on the floor or throwing holy water from up above. These areas which ought to be tight pinches are easy as can be and you can just step back and attack. Real awesome designing there. :o Sure, IV has many such instances, but the game is just so much more satisfying and fun to play. I wish it did have classic mechanics, though, or it could have used a bit of an overhaul in game design to utilize the whip more, but it's still the most awesomest in da seriez.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 26, 2012, 02:52:17 PM
Look man, who said anything about being hardcore to beat XX? I'm pretty sure just about anybody can beat XX with just average skills. I assure my skills are average at best, and I'm not always in the mood to play the hardest games (why I'm leaving the x68000 version off for a bit longer).

But you also don't see how lame Rondo is designed? Well then whatever, I'm in my own little world until someone says otherwise.

So how about Adventure being far superior in game design & balance in comparison to Legends, which I consider typical portable trash of that era with no sign of Konami genius to be seen anywhere (wonder is this game was used to train new guys like how it happened with the second PS2 Contra game?). People agree with this or not?
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: thernz on April 26, 2012, 03:04:39 PM
I was waiting for this reply. Style over substance. Sorry, this is off topic. But it's the #1 reason why people are fooled into believing Rondo is the better designed game. I don't care what the game looks like for this topic. All I want to know is about enemy placement, level layout, and how they balance and interact with the character. And this is where Rondo seems to fail for me in comparison to XX.
You know, when I said consistent themes and all that jazz, I was referring to the flow and rhythm of those levels where, for instance, CVI's level layouts were largely permutations of an idea. Both CVI and Rondo are better paced as well. There's a lot more emphasis on creating rhythm and harmony in those games with their enemy placement than DXX ever tried.

DXX just ends up being confused. There are rarely any instances of enemy placement being used in unique ways such as enemies  interrelating with one another beyond the typical molds already used in previous Castlevanias. You're just going from one obstacle to another, with no build up or progression. Compare this with Rondo where if often sends out an enemy at you then mixes it up more and more, using the environment. Rondo just explores a lot of intriguing possibilities in how it uses enemy placement, and Dracula XX simply rarely does.

A lot of it just consists of this flatness from one enemy to the next in drab hallways.

Now, Rondo doesn't have the tightest design, but it supplants it with an environment that seems whole, with all its branches, secrets, and inter-connectivity that make exploring those places interesting in a way Castlevania never touched before.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Dracula9 on April 26, 2012, 03:07:49 PM
DXX is IMHO a clunky and considerably slower-paced game than Rondo.

Richter moves very slowly. If this was intentional then I'm shocked at it. But since even the Skeleton Apes are able to keep up with Richter easily, it's fair for me to say that Richter moves too slowly for one to really enjoy movement like Rondo.

The same applies to the backflip. I don't even know why it was retained in DXX since there aren't any real places that would make its use ingenious. There aren't any puzzles or clever hidden items to get to by backflipping over a gap too long to jump over, which ruins the point of the backflip. There aren't many places like that in Rondo, I'll admit, but there were some legitimately unique secrets/items that got easier to reach by using the backflip. Case and point, the giant heart in the Stage 3' Cemetery. It CAN be walked over, but utilizing the backflip for it creates, however momentary, a change of pace in the game's flow. The backflip could also be useful for dodging Drac's fireballs in Rondo. Trying that in DXX will result in a very likely death, or an immense feeling of luck and success if you can land on a platform. The dying part tends to happen more, at least for me last time I plated DXX.

There's also DXX's non-standard platforming aspects, or lack thereof as the case may be. The giant pendulums in Rondo's Clock Tower? Gone. Replaced by simple horizontal gears. Still a good platform aspect, but considerably less challenging to nail than the pendulums. You don't have to time your jump and landing as precisely on a static platform.

I also am bothered by you using hostage rescue to give DXX some light. Rondo has four hostages to rescue. DXX has two. Rondo requires the key to be held and used just as well as DXX, but there's a lot more challenge in maintaining the key in Rondo and not dying. The Behemoth has more holes to knock you into, half of which don't even take you to the right place.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Flame on April 26, 2012, 03:15:23 PM
Quote
Now some quick example of why XX is genius; to save both hostages requires more skill, not just finding them or by luck. ie. Having to have the key (why basically handed to you) on you makes the level harder since you can't use sub-weapons fro the first half, then the second half too if your clever enough to figure this out. Tell me this is not brilliant.

Rondo uses Keys too. have you... Even played Rondo? Or at least saved the Hostages?

Also, whats so bad about style? Why cant I have style AND substance? You dont have to be a graphics whore to want a good looking and aesthetically pleasing game. part of the game design is the aesthetic. It has to LOOK appealing, and in terms of Castlevania, the stage progression has to follow some kind of cohesive pattern.

And yeah, I still feel that level design wise, Rondo just feels better. XX just feels... bad?

The pacing also. Rondo is just better paced and the gameplay flows more smoothly, controls and mechanics notwithstanding.

Why dony you give us your views on why Rondo is so bad? I see you using XX examples, and asking us to explain Rondo, but what about some Rondo Examples?
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: thernz on April 26, 2012, 03:24:21 PM
I actually liked the raft ride too, because of how it mixed up the mechanics a bit. It wasn't just graphical fluff. Richter was given a much more limited space, and the inclination and rockiness of the level made you approach things in a different matter.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: knightmere on April 26, 2012, 03:28:53 PM
DXX is a pretty bad port but it does have a nice challenge level, mostly due to cheap enemy placement and the fact that Richter controls like shit.  The only level that has interesting design is level one if only because of the cool flame effects that are actually better than any effects in Rondo.  The soundtrack is pretty good with a few tracks sounding even better, (bloody tears, bloodlines, cemetary) however sporting fewer tracks altogether.  I think just about all of the boss fights are tougher as well.  Its definitely not the worst game in the series, but a balanced one it is not.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Abnormal Freak on April 26, 2012, 03:50:50 PM
I can't understand anyone saying Rondo has poor design or that it's lacking in some way. IMO, it's one of the better- and tightly-designed games inf the series.

One thing I like about it so much is you have to use strategy. Some enemies require moving in for attack but then stepping way the hell back. You have to time your attacks and movements. DXX only has the spear guards and red knights, and lacks all the other such enemies.

Legends is a good game but it's my least favorite of the Classicvanias. But it's funny you would put that down while praising DXX, because they're both by the same director and Legends feels slightly less sloppy and more tightly controlled and designed than DXX, showing that the director learned a few things since his last game.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: X on April 26, 2012, 06:17:26 PM
Rondo and CV: DX... I like 'em both. They each have certain strengths and weaknesses that make them stand out from one another. I first played Castlevania: Dracula X and did not hear about Rondo until some years later when I was exposed to the internet. CV: DX was and is still hard as shit for me. Rondo is similar but far and few I've found. In terms of Richter, I don't notice any real difference in the way he controls. Both are the same to me but I can tell that in CV: DX Richter does seem more heavier (Gravity wise) And that his attacks on enemies feel more solid then in Rondo. Despite that many here feel his back-flip is wasted in CV: DX I've found it to be a helpful strategy for the first stage boss fight. I also find that Richter's speed and how fast he progresses in the levels to be more realistic as the sprite implies. In Rondo his sprite animation is moving too slow while the level is passing by fast and this is clearly seen when looking at his feet. Rondo's levels do look better in terms of progression and transition, but I find that the coloration is more a kin to the NES games. I liked the way CV: DX's stages looked because it reminds me a little of SCV IV, but again they are flawed in the fact that they are disjointed from one another. Although not all the stages seem that way.
    I do find that in CV: DX, the lack of music tracks, stages, two of the four main characters and a non-playable Maria to be a bit of a cop out. However to me it feels complete, even the choice selections for the stages I find are better and you don't feel you're running all over the place time and again. One of the music tracks in Rondo, despite being of CD quality doesn't really play out well at all. That track is of course Vampire Killer. It has this...gap; An annoying pause that ruins the flow of the song which was (thank god) fixed and made better in CV: DX. Another thing that I don't get about Rondo is that you cannot complete all of the stages until after you've beaten Dracula. Why was this? I have absolutely no idea. It was only one stage that held no real meaning to it and was essentially a recycled area using the tiles from the Haunted ship and the dungeon stages. At least in the DXC they fixed that and made it more interesting; turning it into a unique stage all on it's own. But Dracula's stage is and should be the final one and this is where I found Rondo's design to go wrong. Both are great in some areas while both suck in others, but I still like them both and still play them both from time to time. This is simply how I feel about the two games and in no way do they reflect the opinions of everyone else here, FYI.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: VladCT on April 26, 2012, 06:38:38 PM
If there's one glaring flaw in DXX it's the throne room's design. There was a safe spot in which you can just duck most of Dracula's (first form) attacks and spam the Axe whenever he's in range.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 26, 2012, 08:01:47 PM
Wow, there is so much talk about how the game looks and stuff. Man, this thread is all over the place.. Well it does confirm that everybody assumes Rondo is well designed by looks, large scope of game, and popularity alone... why not, SotN is a massive disaster in game design and balance, but you won't hear a peep about that either. IT's GTREAT!!... Listen, forget about how a game looks completely. And most importantly, forget how much more you love certain Castlevanias so much. Sigh, Rondo's major popularity is killing me here. Everybody feels they have to defend it in every category but from a perspective of gameplay & difficulty balance... well not really, some are mentioning a few things about it... now I got to look over this mess and find out these parts...

OK, lets see if I can answer some questions? I'm not gonna use quotes because it's a major pain since I can't open Quotes in new tabs (it's how I do it, then copy and paste it all in one post... is it that hard to implement this feature? Would greatly appreciate it :));

- Yes I played Rondo (own the PSP game), but there aren't any parts where you need to hold the key for too long or where secondary weapons would come in very handy... I can only think of for the very brief moment in the clocktower where it would make taking the first bird thingy out less risky with my crap skills I have at the moment... forget if it'd be very handy for the second bird type thing there? After that you can use the key and forget about it. Woo, 2 enemies! In XX you can't use it for an entire level, and in that vertical part near Maria's door where you have to go up and having all these skulls appearing, a sub weapon like an Axe would come in very handy. Plus if I die with the key in Rondo, oh well, I'll try again via level select. But do have fun starting the game over in XX (personally I just keep going for both games, either path if fine by me + more replay incentive is OK by me).
- to the one that said XX is bad designed because you have to go all the way to the edge to make certain jumps. You've been watching the Angry videogame nerd, haven't you? Well, if you understand that guy, he will go out of his way for material as long as it's funny. So don't take him too seriously, it's just a show, remember that. And there tons of games that make you go all the way to the edge to make jumps. Even in Rondo (it's how I was able to reach the giant heart in the cemetery). Plus you don't have to go to the very edge to make jumps in XX, you do have enough extra room to prevent risking falling off.
- The backflip stuff. You know, I barely use this move in both games (though I use it more in Rondo, I think?). Yes I noticed there is more of a delay in XX, but it still gets me out of trouble with them spear guys. You just have smaller reaction time, is all... I also seem to pull this move off all the time in Rondo by accident, not sure if the same applies in XX?
- Who cares if you don't enjoy Ritchie's walking speed. This is a topic about game balance, not which game you like more. Yes I know most love Rondo over XX by leaps and bounds. No more reminders, please... plus really, both games control very similarly, complain about XX controls is pretty much just like complain about Rondo's controls... I think we should drop Ritchie's controls from this topic, no?
- all you have do do in the raft ride is face left and constantly jump and whip. Then when you see a bird with the sign, prepare to leap right. Wow, this level is so in-depth!  :o ... Come on, it's just style over substance like most of the game, again. Nothing wrong with this, I love style in my games (why I mostly don't like modern 3D games, no style), dare I say more then gameplay?  :o It's just that if the gameplay is really poor, I'll just stick with VG Maps and spriters resource... Luckily I don't have this problem with Rondo at all.
- Also, Abnormal Freak said; Also, so many of the baddies in DXX can be killed by standing behind a block on the floor or throwing holy water from up above. These areas which ought to be tight pinches are easy as can be and you can just step back and attack. Real awesome designing there. :o You mean this can't be done from a safe distance and/or through walls with sub weapons in all other classic Castlevania games?  :o  ... well, with the whip in Super Castlevania 4, you don't have worry about subweapons making the game much easier, since the whip in this game can reach enemies from a safe distance too for most of the game... man Abnormal Freak, you just made the classic Castlevania series look like total sh*t from a design perspective.. hey, do a challenge for Rondo next!!.
- oh, and Legfends and XX was directed by the same guy!!!!  :o Wow, that guy must of had an army of numb nuts when he made Legends. Because man, that game is the perfect example of a solid zero when it comes to Castlevania game design, and luckily no other 2D Castlevania comes close to that low standard from what I played.

Well, I've been playing some Rondo today, gonna try and squeeze some XX if I can today also... because it seems you guys don't want to let go of this Rondo VS XX topic anytime soon?

If there's one glaring flaw in DXX it's the throne room's design. There was a safe spot in which you can just duck most of Dracula's (first form) attacks and spam the Axe whenever he's in range.

Hey, that's how I beat Dracula too!!! But psst. Your supposed to keep it a secret, Dracula XX is unbeatable as they say.  ;)(Man, the axe has got to be the best weapon in any classic vania game to make up for no Super Simon whip in every direction ability)
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Nagumo on April 27, 2012, 03:35:39 AM
I guess I'm not smart enough to fully figure this out as to what you might mean?... I think I brought this difficulty thing up because it has a great impact on game design. Sure there should be both hard and easy games to suit each mood (I know my moods changed from hard to easy games quite a few times already), but do all games have to be easy nowadays? Or better yet, do all Castlevania games have to be easy & broken nowadays? Why can't I wish for one more old school challenge style Castlevania in the very simple classic style with the same classic Konami genius design? (This means made in-house by Konami & no whip that has more angles then Bloodlines & no more then the classic sub-weapons for other weapons... though I could do without the knife and clock just like how Bloodlines was smart enough to say no too.. anybody use these things anyway?... oh, and no more backtracking. I find it kills the repaly big time + it's boring).

Well, I'm not saying all games should be easy either and not that wanting more challenge is a bad thing. I can really like a challenge as well. I was just disagreeing with challenge = superior game design. But it was kind of off-topic, so please carry on. Also, not sure if you were being humble or just snarky with that first sentence.         
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 27, 2012, 05:03:04 AM
Anyways, I played some XX before bed yesterday (well, earlier today... what am i doing up so early? Oh yeah, gots to hit the gym... too many days playing vanias got me lazy >_>), and I have to say I really wasn't in the mood to play that game + it was really pissing me off. I just wanted to go back to playing easy, beautiful, wonderfull, cover girl Rondo... So I endured the pain of dieing more then I liked (man, I barely took much time off from this and it's kicking my butt so bad already?! + when I die too much I almost always take a break from said game), course I sucked too much to make it to the ruins level because I died and lost the key, which I don't' mind because last time I made it to it I just gave up. Least this way I knew I could beat the game for sure. And eventually did (thank you axes... course when I didn't have 'em due to sucking, I had a harder time). And I'm glad I gave it another playthrough just now after two back to back playthrough of Rondo because I can see what everyones problem is with this one is more... the game doesn't feel like it has near as much polish in many areas all across. Doesn't feel much like an official game. Pretty basic stuff. But it's because it's so much more basic that they were able to nail the tighter design & balance for XX. It feels like a very controlled experiment in comparison to Rondo's "let's toss them all into the cage and see what happens?" + XX didn't have to come up with much new things, like enemies, and maybe just took what they felt would worked best with what they had? (Would really like to see some beta of both these games or any other Konami game to see how they g about polishing a game? Hey, there is that Euro Bloodlines Beta, the one Mr.P's realm described as the official Euro final of Bloodlines, lol. I mean, how could he get this wrong, it's pretty obvious it's unfinished since one entire level section has zero enemies... yay, back to playing Bloodlines again!.. What, gym? >_>;; )

And the other thing nobody seems to be making any comments on is just difficulty alone. XX seems to get harder with each level. Even harder to get the best ending (that ruins level is a pain + I don't see it much either). In Rondo, the difficulty spikes back and forth between all levels, and between all areas of one level (it's not uncommon for me to find the hardest part of a level the start then the middle or end). Yeah, playing through Rondo is still more fun. But XX is still the better designed around difficulty then Rondo. And this is all I'm talking about design AND difficulty. How can there be any possible rebuttal to this with these two games? I don't see it, but if it's there, I'd love to be proven wrong. Being wrong and not knowing it is terrible & learning is fun... well, when the topic is something I love, that is. I don't care which is more fun design wise. I don't. I want you guys to see this other perspective. I want you guys to see that XX is not total design flaw all across the board as everybody makes it seem. Open your eyes, and don't let hate cloud your judgement. Because if I let this happen, I'd never of played Super Castlevania 4 & Rondo enough for them to grow on me, not to mention a ton of other games that are now my biggest favourites. Too many people nowadays make quick assumptions based on first impressions, what they hear from others, and/or let other factor bias other opinions (like this game is too hard and cheap, it must be flawed! Roar!!!! And what's this, poo-e graphics, why it's levels are designed wrong too! Snarl!!!! That's it, I can't recommend this game to anyone. I know what I'm talking about), instead of playing a game enough for themselves and using a clear unbiased mind to figure things out if it's how everybody says it is? (And from experience, most don't have a clue what their talking about game review wise, or otherwise)





Oh, and the backflip in XX is pretty useless to me I just found out, since another tactic I use to avoid the spearmen charge is just jumping back. I compared the two and found out I'm more successfull with jumps... for some reason I can't always pull this move off under pressure yet, as the timing is much tighter... but at least because of this I don't ever pull the move off accidentally like in Rondo (and no, this is not a flaw in Rondo, it's me sucking & not knowing how to play the game good enough.... see, this is one example where a reviewer would jump on to bitch about if the game rubbed him the wrong way. Like that having to go to the very edge to make jumps or poor Ritchie walking too slow. Let's be smarter then this).

Well, I'm not saying all games should be easy either and not that wanting more challenge is a bad thing. I can really like a challenge as well. I was just disagreeing with challenge = superior game design. But it was kind of off-topic, so please carry on. Also, not sure if you were being humble or just snarky with that first sentence.       

Really? You don't think it's harder to design + balance well a harder game then an easier game? I think it is. Especially if you can keep at a hard game for long enough that you can eventually beat it without taking any damage and/or that much trouble (Mario 3 was really hard when I first started playing it, now it's a joke no matter how long of a break I take). Now that's pretty good game design to me (hard, yet possible to perfect... which XX is much more in then Rondo). Setting up a very nice and long learning curve should be the only challenge when making a hard game. Making a hard game that requires too much luck and impossible to do perfect makes it end up more towards the bad game design aspect, in my opinion of course.

With that first sentence I was being stupid. As in I really didn't know (is this mean humble?). Then I replied with a guess... Stupid me also had to look up snarky (though I had a good idea as to what it could mean, I had to make sure). So no, I wasn't being critical, cutting, or testy (you may of answered correct, but I sure wasn't smart enough to figure it out... undertanding & explaining in this language is my weak point).
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Abnormal Freak on April 27, 2012, 06:55:01 AM
The people who have posted in this thread and have said DXX is very flawed DO NOT belong to a crowd mentality. :p Your posts continually come off as condescending so it's really not enjoyable to try and have a dialog with you.

I've been playing and enjoying DXX for 14 years. I love that game. But I also say it's terribly flawed and sloppily designed. It's hard to describe to you what I mean. You see awesome design, I see platforms and enemy placement that 50% of the time has very little rhyme or reason.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Dracula9 on April 27, 2012, 07:04:06 AM
Quote
Who cares if you don't enjoy Ritchie's walking speed. This is a topic about game balance, not which game you like more. Yes I know most love Rondo over XX by leaps and bounds. No more reminders, please... plus really, both games control very similarly, complain about XX controls is pretty much just like complain about Rondo's controls... I think we should drop Ritchie's controls from this topic, no?

I don't think we should drop them at all. Since you keep bringing to point the non-graphical aspects of the games, I think Richter's control differences are a key aspect against your "DXX is better than Rondo" argument. Granted, everyone's going to have their own opinion, but DXX controls and Rondo controls are more different than they are alike. I'll point out a few I've noticed.

-Richter's backflip. Yes, I'm going back to this again. The reaction time to perform it in DXX is noticably less than in Rondo. The backflip itself is also slower. While it does come in handy in evading Spear Guards and the like, it's superior in Rondo.

-DXX, if I remember correctly, lacks the "double-tap-forward-whip-extenstion" that's in Rondo. While not something that's so terrible it ruins the whole game, it does, for me at least, draw a bit away from DXX's overall appeal. That extension comes in handy in the most simple things, like smacking a raven a second earlier than without, or taking out that goddamned Super Fleaman.

-DXX's enemy placement is cheap, pure and simple. There's also a considerable lack of situationally-unique enemies; the swinger-skeletons(yes I know you can just run past them. That they're there at all will add a change in the normal expectations of skeleons.), the Heavy Armors, which only appear on the Ghost Ship IIRC, the Skeleton Gunmen, which require a tad more thinking to kill, even for something like chucking an axe at them, because of their range and distance, etc., etc. Cheap enemy placement does create its own unique difficulty, I will give you that, but it's a challenge level based on poor production and game design. It doesn't mean as much as enemies that strategcally create an obstruction or otherwise draw the game on a bit more, such as the Skull Heads that appear in the Chapel and try and force you to stay on the platforms.

-DXX's lesser number of hostages. I've mentioned this already, but I'll explain more. You said a few posts back that DXX gave challenge, wit, skill, etc., to locate and rescue them, yet you totally ignored the wit and skill involved in getting the girls in Rondo. For example, the Cemetery rescue, Iris, who requires nothing more than a simple breaking of four blocks. But they need to be broken in a specific order and they may even go unnoticed until the player can't go back for them. It doesn't have to be excessively complicated to be well-executed. There's also Tera in the Mountain Range, who needs a frog enemy to follow you without being killed to a post. Not killing the frog, killing what enemies do show up, and not dying are a simple and working combination. THEN you have to go BACK to get to her. Backtracking works just as well as smacking a pillar in DXX's Atlantean stage, if not more so.

Now, I'll give a few things in Rondo's defense as opposed to DXX's offense;

-Rondo has the option of a second character. You say that DXX has a higher replay value for you, but Rondo having two playable characters provides two totally different ways to play the game, even more than two if you take into account the alternate-level possibilities.

-Rondo has certain little things that DXX doesn't, or did it better than DXX. Take Stage 1's bucket room, for instance. Different, and to get all the items takes a bit of thinking. There's also the Dungeon stage in Rondo and that whole second section with the Ogre guy throwing boulders around. That portion is unique in its own right and doesn't even lead to the boss. A nice perk from the dark, warm dungeon colors. Note that I did not use graphics as a main reason, but as a follow-up to a main reason.

You said that English is hard for you to interpret, what language do you speak normally?


@Abnormal Freak - Don't misunderstand me pointing out DXX's flaws, or some of or all of the others doing so, as us pushing a crowd mentality that DXX sucks. I actually enjoy DXX very much. I just happen to, on a gameplay level, prefer Rondo more. DXX takes that cake for me in stage graphics and certain song tracks. And please don't call our posts condescending just because we're pointing out what we view as flaws in a game.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: The Silverlord on April 27, 2012, 07:55:23 AM
And the other thing nobody seems to be making any comments on is just difficulty alone.

I'd say XX/Vampire's Kiss has the harder difficulty.

I like the speed of Richter, he feels more solid and there's good 'feedback' in his whip hits.  It’s a really tight and technical undertaking, requiring careful management of hearts/item crushes, and taking utmost care to duck and take hits in the right spots, or you’ll plummet to your doom.

But there is trouble with hit detection and Richter can take a multi-hit barrage if you err with something so simple in killing a bat.  You’re kept on your toes. 

But Rondo is right up there with CV IV in the immersion/design stakes and just for pure enjoyment value.  You can relax a bit more and still try and aim for a good 1LC (1 life clear).
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 27, 2012, 09:50:49 AM
@ Dracula9;
- I've already said I don't find much use for XX backflip and prefer to use jump instead. So yes, move is useless.
- yes, the extend whip does add more depth (as does a more working backflip)
- yes, XX has way less enemy variety then Rondo. Well of course. Were talking CD massive CD storage VS tiny cart space. But then again, XX don't have as many levels/areas as Rondo either, so less enemies don't look so bad (basically half the areas & half the enemies. This seem about right to me?). Them amour guys in the ship level require skill? Hmm, I did not know that, I thought it just required patience?... Oh no, you mean the guys with guns? I just walk up to or jump at them and hit them. What's so though or deep about that?... I don't think enemy placement in XX is that cheap, but rather strategically placed to pace the game more accordingly. I mean, wow, wasn't that how it was done during the Nintendo days too? Isn't Ninja Gaiden series considered a masterpiece due to same enemy placements? Oh no, wrong again, that game has enough style for people to put up with it's difficult.. er, I mean, cheapness.
- wait, wait, wait, you have to get a frog to save the mountain hostage? Are we talking about Chronicles for PSP too now? That game changed the games balance around quite a bit... I find it harder, plus the 3D look doesn't appeal tome nearly as much as the 2D one. Thus I play the unlocked original & PC-Engine version via emulation. And I don't recall having to have a frog following me? I just went there, then went back... how does figuring out which switch to hit and what order have to do with hero VS enemy balance? It don't, it's part of a puzzle design... let's get back to physical challenge.
- your right, Rondo does provide more replay with two characters. It's just not related to challenge and difficulty design... in fact playing as her tosses most of that out the window... but it's still fun and extra replay. Right on that... Yes, lot's of level variety to keep things fresh too, but it's a different kind of replay, not related more well designed challenge... Look, you want me to say Rondo is more replayable then XX? I will, because so far it does seem pretty fun to come to due to great variety + I can always handicap myslef/aim for goals... But I won't know for sure which one will win in the end? Only time will tell.
- Romanian is my first language (it's a latin language, like french, only with a very different accent... thus it's a backwards language in comparison to english... plus I sometimes like finish things with "no?" :D)

I'd say XX/Vampire's Kiss has the harder difficulty.

I like the speed of Richter, he feels more solid and there's good 'feedback' in his whip hits.  It's a really tight and technical undertaking, requiring careful management of hearts/item crushes, and taking utmost care to duck and take hits in the right spots, or you'll plummet to your doom.

Yay, I feel much more sane now, thank you Silverlord, thank you very much.

there is trouble with hit detection and Richter can take a multi-hit barrage if you err with something so simple in killing a bat.  You’re kept on your toes. 

Don't forget also that Ritchie in Rondo can also fall victim to multiple hits due to very short invincibility time. So, Rondo is a poorly designed game too by other too then?... YAY!!!




You see awesome design, I see platforms and enemy placement that 50% of the time has very little rhyme or reason.

That's weird, that's how I see Rondo?
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: TheouAegis on April 27, 2012, 12:07:38 PM
I love CV3 for its design and level cohesion (although some stages beg to be questioned). But the Holy Water broke it. Drac was the only boss you couldn't use it on and most enemies couldn't get past it. And if you got the Triple Multiplier, it was way overpowered. But now it's become obsolete and I think that's wrong too. I mean, I like how half the spells in OoE were basically Holy Waters but the damage was low enough to not make them broken.  But I really do miss the long-burning blue flame of holiness. :(

I read this topic until halfway down page 2 then got bored and posted this.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Abnormal Freak on April 27, 2012, 01:44:33 PM
@Abnormal Freak - Don't misunderstand me pointing out DXX's flaws, or some of or all of the others doing so, as us pushing a crowd mentality that DXX sucks. I actually enjoy DXX very much. I just happen to, on a gameplay level, prefer Rondo more. DXX takes that cake for me in stage graphics and certain song tracks. And please don't call our posts condescending just because we're pointing out what we view as flaws in a game.

You misread. :p
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Dracula9 on April 27, 2012, 02:05:10 PM
You're getting snippy when there's no need to, Sinful. Make no mistake, I love DXX, but it has its faults and I'll always notice them. It's like watching a movie that's a remake of another movie. If you saw the original first, you'll compare the newer to the older. Same concept, but in DXX vs. Rondo. Rondo I like more because it's faster-paced but not over too quickly. I love games that play like that.

DXX I enjoy when I'm in the mood for a grind that's not necessarily long, but so ridiculously difficult that it feels like a long game. It's great for when I want something that'll make me shout profanities at a poorly-timed jump, or at an enemy being a cheap bastard and knocking me into a pit. Things like that.

As for a SNES cartridge not being able to support as many enemies as a CD-while this is completely true in the issue of available space, there are plenty of games for the SNES that can support many different enemies, techniques, etc. Just look at the Final Fantasies for the SNES. If a game can support hundreds of enemies and spells, I'd imagine it can support a skeleton swinging from a tree branch or a giant purple skull in a graveyard. There's also SCVIV(yep, totally went there), LTTP, the Kombats, Chrono Trigger, SoM, I could go on.

Actually, let me back a few of those up. I don't want to just name off games without my reasoning for them.

-The Mortal Kombats. Dozens of different characters with their own unique movesets. The movesets and their key combinations are widespread as it is. Add the AI into the mix and it skyrockets. I'd also like the mention Killer Instinct, mainly for its c-c-c-combo breaker system. It's a small little thing that opens up even more probabilities for the game.

-SoM, Trigger, Breath of Fire, FF4-6, basically ANY RPG game for the SNES has a vast amount of data in play. Obviously these vary from game to game, but there's the attack damage counters, spells and techniques, enemy types, the probability of a give enemy type to show up, the random battle probability where it applies, the Final Fantasy classic of stronger monsters appearing on the map after point X in the game, enemy and boss AI, different character classes, etc. There's a lot going on.

-LTTP. First off, I love this game. Anyways, it has roughly twelve major dungeons, each of which has its own unique boss and item, which requires more and more backtracking to acquire with each new dungeon. There's a shitload of stuff to do around the world, from Rupee-earning sidequests and minigames to secret powerups and items, and don't even get me started on the damn Heart Containers. There's also the aspect of two totally different worlds to explore, and the ability to shift between them. There's a good plenty of actions going in in LTTP and I would presume that they take some considerable space to pull off.

Anyway, the point is, while the SNES cartridge might not have the same disk space as a TG-16 CD, that by no means gives the SNES the inability to support enemy variety or other aspects of a given game(DXX in this particular case). It all boils down to what the producers, directors, whatever, choose to put into the game. There's the issues of time constraints, development hell, the possibility of staff loss due to everyday injury, sickness, etc., release dates getting ever-closer, public announcements and advertising, any meetings with carriers and advertisers that may happen, bug and beta testing to the moon and back, etc. All of these things can truly make or break what a game contains(see Soul Reaver). While I can't and won't try to say for certain whether these forced some cutbacks in DXX, I can say that it's NOT the SNES cartridge's fault for the game lacking what is does.

Also, Romanian? Nice language. I wish I knew it.

You misread. :p

I had a feeling I did. It was one of those "one-or-the-other" risks. I just took the wrong one. It happens. :P
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 27, 2012, 06:18:12 PM
@ Dracula9

- Sorry for being snippy, but it's to much fun to joke around and poke fun in a light hearted way. If this offends, I understand, but come, I mean no harm, and it helps me keep sane + puts a smile on my face. Life never has to be taken to seriously otherwise you'll age much faster, have more health problems, and end up a nervous wreck. ... Anywho, your talking about likes and dislikes again, forget about this sort of talk. Think design and difficulty (ie. I'm surprised no mentioned the beautifully designed and balanced bridge in Rondo's last level yet as a rebuttal? Is this not amazing design that's beautifully balanced?... Oh wait, don't tell me this is cheap too!!! * head explodes*)

- so you think getting knocked back into a pit is a flaw? And you think the knockback in classic vania games are flawed too then, right? Wrong, is what I think. And maybe this is why many can't seem to agree with me on this topic? These aren't flaws, they are done intentionally. If they didn't have they knockback affect, they would of had to of come up with another way of making the game more challenging (ie. the Japanese version of C1 added the ability to remove knockbacks to make the game easier instead of removing it completely. Konami is then well aware of it, yet refuses to remove it due to them liking to balance the game around it  ;)), thus changing the game too much and possibly make it less fun then what we know classic vania games to be? This is why I don't ever wish or another Super Castlevania whip anywhere you want game that everybody seems to want (so yeah, no wonder no one can see it my way in this topic). You see, to balance Super C4 with that whip would change classic vania way too much, and probably for the worse, if not better? If for the better, it would probably be too different to be Castlevania? ie. would you want Super C4 without the ability to attack through walls? I sure wouldn't... hey, what do you guys think about no control jumps? I actually prefer them over control (SC4) and slight control (Rondo/XX). I think this simplicity is beautiful and still provides enough depth, if not more (but the beauty is in simplicity while still being deep. Remember this, as it's the key to the best and tightest designed games). But you know what, I bet you any money most see this as nothing but a flaw/step backwards and can't appreciate how well it works in games like Bloodlines (Man, if people see so many things as a step backwards, why are they still playing 2D games, etc, etc?).

- yes, many games can support more enemies variety, etc. But for XX they decided for a lot of that space to got to graphics. Which most don't like anyways. Bad move? I think so, but that's were your space went (and maybe some bad compression too?). When you look at Super C4, you'll see a lot of tiny blocks repeated over and over a thousand times. Plus Super C4 doesn't seem to use more colours then 80 on screen (like most first gen SNES games + most SNES games still don't come close to reaching 250 colours on screen during gameplay. Just like most Genesis don't come very close to 64. But this is what everybody believes :rollseyes:), so I'd imagine that saves a ton of image space too?... also sound can take up a ton of space too... But yes, you do have the right concern for this having been handled poorly, but I assure you they probably aimed to please in the graphics and sound area since most wanted that around that time. Ironically, most see this as a much worse looking game then even Super C4. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Doesn't it just blow you brain up?...  FF games are totally different games and make for a poor comparison to XX. The only game you mentioned close to XX is Super C4. The rest are RPGs.

- I'm not gonna break down how all them games you mentioned were able to save on so much space, yet cram so much. It's pretty obvious to me though, as I think about space all the time... hey, did you know Bloodlines was the same size as Super C4 (8 Mbit), yet still seems to have less then that game too? Wrack your brains around this one. :D ... hey, here is a quick example. Look at Donkey Kong Country series for SNES. Very in-depth graphics, right? Well, notice there aren't that many levels theme, and how they repeat over and over? This is one example on saving space. If you want more info, start a new topic on it and many should be able to answer you more... if not, PM me and I'll jump in the topic to see what I can do?

- yeah, you can tell Romanian is a nice language without knowing it? But then I guess if you know a language, it wouldn't sound bad at all then?


So yeah, tell me what you guys think about the jumps in the classic vania game + the knockbacks and their relation to game/difficulty design. As talking about this may reveal a lot? Because it seems we need to break down things to the very core?



@ Abnormal Freak

Hey, I have to ask. You apparently love XX, yet there isn't one area of the game you seem fond of (graphics, design/difficulty balance, player controls, etc. etc.). So, why7 Do you love this game? Are you like the Nintendo Nerd and actually like playing shitty games more the good games? What's your angle? And who's baby is that? I'll buy it.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 27, 2012, 07:48:41 PM
Man, you guys aren't even trying to rebuttal me properly. I just realized while playing the X68000 game on Chronicles that every Castlevania game has saves, and that I forgot that passwords are a type of saves too (because I never use them). So when I said that you had to start the game over in XX from dying with the key, I was wrong. If you write down the password, you can just start the level over np (I assume the game keeps track of the key? If not, you can just start from previous level. Still not near as bad as starting over).


Anyways, I played the remake version of X68000 on Chronicles, and realized that it didn't have knock backs. :o Will, this upset me greatly. So I went back to the original. And man, you guys don't want to play this game because it's a BROKEN CHEAP BUTT MESS!!!! (kidding  ;D) But seriously, that's what I wanted to think when I got the the raft ride and couldn't get past it using the same tactics as the remake. I kept getting knocked back into the drink!  >:( Luckily I decided to use a continue and press on and see what's there to learn to pass that? And wouldn't you know it that there was another very affective solution to beating that part? Jumping was the key. Wow, what a very well designed section and I to think I never would of known it had I not played the un-stripped down version.

So yeah, if you guys think XX is cheap, don't play this game in it's original form (maybe even remake too?). And for that matter, forget about playing many NES games too (Castlevania included). Start with the SNES/Genesis and forward (Sega themselves designed some geniusly balanced games Pico Drive. I think you'll greatly approve ;)).


Well, after using a second continue on the third level, I called it quits for today. What a fun game. :) (Though I've had enough for today >_>)
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Abnormal Freak on April 27, 2012, 11:03:22 PM
The X68000 game is awesome, and unlike XX, it's very solidly designed. There's nothing cheap about it. :p It offers a challenge that's legitimate.

And DXX really isn't difficult; I don't know why it seems to have gotten a reputation for being hard.

What I like about DXX are a lot of things. It isn't a terrible game, just flawed. The platforms and level designs (structurally speaking) may often times be poorly planned out, but it's still fun to hop all around them, and likewise hitting enemies despite their oftentimes haphazard placement. The graphical style is pretty even if sometimes there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of content or depth. (Compare the spaciousness and detail of SCVIV's library and note how DXX has nothing close to that level of immersion.)

The music kicks ass, but that's because the original game's score kicks ass—and I personally don't think any of the SNES versions are better than the redbook originals, but they're awesome SNES arrangements regardless, and the new tunes of the game are great also.

Its controls aren't broken by any means—it still essentially controls the same way as Rondo—it just feels less finely tuned than the PC Engine game does.

And in the end, it's Castlevania, and not just any Castlevania but one of the old style ("Classicvania"). I love ALL of those games and I don't think anybody could ever make one which dissatisfies me greatly. The Adventure ReBirth is one of the most fun newer games I've played in the last few years, and I'd love to see more old style games in the series. I enjoy the "Metroidvanias" too, especially SOTN which is one of the best in the series, but most of the rest just leave me feeling kind of empty in the long run, even if I enjoy playing them. They ain't the old mostly-linear, action platforming style, which I enjoy the most.

If ever anyone were to make an open-ended Metroidvania with Classicvania controls and a fucking whip-cracking Belmont as the protagonist, I'd be all over that. Bring back the sometimes difficult but satisfyingly fun jumps, the knock-backs, the subweapons, ditch the RPG system (leveling up, equipping) and floaty controls—just have a lovely castle with mega-pretty graphics, great tunes, fantastic level designs not seen since SOTN, have the old style of gameplay, and make it for a console, and I'd be in paradise.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 28, 2012, 07:19:53 AM
Yes! Someone read one of my supper long posts and enabled opening quotes in knew tabs! Thank you mystery mod!

The X68000 game is awesome, and unlike XX, it's very solidly designed. There's nothing cheap about it. :p It offers a challenge that's legitimate.

Yes, it does seem very well designed, but have you read some of the reviews on Game FAQ's? I recall some guy saying "That's not smart design, that's stupid design!" ... lol, so I took it out of context. ;D It was in regards to enemies taking too much damage to increase difficulty in original mode, which he does have a point. But he's still blindly raged on the game not to give original mode the chance it deserves and see it's beauty... Plus I see nothing wrong with developers increasing damage enemies hand out if the game is designed well enough to be possible to complete with no damage at all... besides, this is how the NES Castlevania games were done too.

And DXX really isn't difficult; I don't know why it seems to have gotten a reputation for being hard.

I agree too very much. It's one of the very few classic Castlevania games I've beat. (Yes, I haven't beat many at all >_>) It's an example of people being blinded by rage towards hating this game as to not give it the chance it deserves. And because of that they never seen that the game wasn't that hard at all and they fell into the trap of labling the game lame because it's too hard along with whatever else bothers them. :P

What I like about DXX are a lot of things. It isn't a terrible game, just flawed. The platforms and level designs (structurally speaking) may often times be poorly planned out, but it's still fun to hop all around them, and likewise hitting enemies despite their oftentimes haphazard placement. The graphical style is pretty even if sometimes there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of content or depth. (Compare the spaciousness and detail of SCVIV's library and note how DXX has nothing close to that level of immersion.)

The music kicks ass, but that's because the original game's score kicks ass—and I personally don't think any of the SNES versions are better than the redbook originals, but they're awesome SNES arrangements regardless, and the new tunes of the game are great also.

Its controls aren't broken by any means—it still essentially controls the same way as Rondo—it just feels less finely tuned than the PC Engine game does.

And in the end, it's Castlevania, and not just any Castlevania but one of the old style ("Classicvania"). I love ALL of those games and I don't think anybody could ever make one which dissatisfies me greatly. The Adventure ReBirth is one of the most fun newer games I've played in the last few years, and I'd love to see more old style games in the series. I enjoy the "Metroidvanias" too, especially SOTN which is one of the best in the series, but most of the rest just leave me feeling kind of empty in the long run, even if I enjoy playing them. They ain't the old mostly-linear, action platforming style, which I enjoy the most.

If ever anyone were to make an open-ended Metroidvania with Classicvania controls and a fucking whip-cracking Belmont as the protagonist, I'd be all over that. Bring back the sometimes difficult but satisfyingly fun jumps, the knock-backs, the subweapons, ditch the RPG system (leveling up, equipping) and floaty controls—just have a lovely castle with mega-pretty graphics, great tunes, fantastic level designs not seen since SOTN, have the old style of gameplay, and make it for a console, and I'd be in paradise.

Wow, I agree with everything except that I really don't like Legends at all. It doesn't have any signs of classic Castlevania in just about every category. So, so far to me I don't count that with the classic Castlevania games... But you also said that's your least fav vania game, so    we're still in agreement, I guess?

Rebirth I just messed around with yesterday for a bit, and I too am blown away. Which is very surprising because I wasn't that impressed with Gradius Rebirth, and the very little I've played of Contra Rebirth (up to the third stage)... Though I still could be wrong about the other Rebirth games as I still need to play them more? But by comparison, this so far seems like the best handled Rebirth by far... I should check out what everybody else thinks about it? (I love reading about others thoughts... even though I mostly don't agree ;D)








So wow again, we can see eye to eye on everything else, but not this topic?
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on April 28, 2012, 07:24:45 AM
The "Arrange" mode of Castlevania Chronicles PS1 has no knockbacks.  It's essentially an "Easy Mode" with a fresh coat of paint on a few graphics.
If you play the "Original Mode", you get the knockbacks back.

I'm fond of the graphical style and comic book color palette that DraculaXX used.
I'm fond of the options in terms of locales and characters that Rondo used.

Ideally, I'd like a hybrid with items from both games, but that ain't happening unless someone hacks DraculaXX into having Rondo-styles changes (and that's tough because I believe DraculaXX uses some strange cart compression from what I have heard).

Rondo's great for what it had to work with.  the PC-Engine is nice with its CD and all but it wasn't a true 16-bit machine (from what I've read).  I think if they could have ported the Rondo game to SNES they probably would have, but probably had issues with porting things so they just went and made a new version.

I'm not arguing for either side of this... debate (?), I am fond of both games.  I got my SNES Cart and my DraculaXChronicles PSP game and my Wii Virtual Console Rondo.  I'm happy. :D
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 28, 2012, 08:19:29 AM
Rondo's great for what it had to work with.  the PC-Engine is nice with its CD and all but it wasn't a true 16-bit machine (from what I've read).  I think if they could have ported the Rondo game to SNES they probably would have, but probably had issues with porting things so they just went and made a new version.

Yeah, the issues was probably "It's not worth the extra cartridge space cash for something that might not sell too well?" But again, I'm much happier with a new classic vania game instead (there aren't that many classic vania games. If it wasn't for XX, I would of been starving way more... but of course you fans that prefer Metroid vania games don't see this of a problem though).

And yes, XX could have been done better without a doubt. And they certainly could have better managed the cartridge space they had better too (not compression wise)... so wait, if the compression technique is really complex, do you think it's possible due to them having a tough time making it fit? (this of course was always a problem during the cart days too for everybody anyways)


Oh, and trust me on this. The PC-Engine alone might not of been up to scratch to match with true 16-Bit SNES, but the Super CD PC Engine that Rondo runs off of most certainly should be, if not more capable. Heck, the first time I seen pics of Rondo, I though it looked like an Arcade game, so I though it must of ran off some powerful computer (PC-Engine CD also sounding like a PC to me). Man, was I shocked when I found out it was a Turbo Graphics! :o Plus the main problem with the PC-Engine alone was the RAM problem. So most Hue Card games had to be designed to stream data off it instantly or almost instantly. But the Super CD Card eliminates this as a major problem big time.


To me, they could have very easily helped to solve Rondo's problem by adding more enemies (& other tricks Castlevania games used to make the games harder) for a higher difficulty level or loop(s). Why doesn't Rondo have an extra difficulty level? All other Castlevania games around that time did? Heck, you can't even handicap yourself with by not upgrading your whip. :( Sigh, wish they weren't only focused on style so much. ... Does the PSP game have an extra difficulty level(s)? (Though I think the game seems harder then the original as is already)
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Abnormal Freak on April 28, 2012, 02:50:44 PM
Actually, I forgot about Haunted Castle when I called Legends my least favorite CV. :p Ive gotten pretty far and intend to beat it, but that's such a difficult task because, well...it's not fun enough to make me wanna play well. :/

Contra ReBirth is awesome. Give it a shot.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: RichterB on April 29, 2012, 04:06:55 PM
Dracula XX--couldn't resist jumping in for a sec.

This entry is high up there on my favorite Castlevanias and, like Sinful, I found it superior to Rondo.

To be clear, XX doesn't have as big of a "scope" as Rondo, but it's a tighter "game" with more traditional challenges like CV 1-4. The Dracula fight is one of the hardest (and most unique) in the series until you learn the correct attack strategy; but even then it requires precision. And "precision" in the name of the game. This game has a learning curve like the older Castlevanias, where you have to plan ahead on jumps and attacks. It feels more satisfying when you get all the timing and enemy placement down. And finding and getting through the alternate routes is rewarding.There are fewer hostages, but they're harder to save and it means more to save them, since not only the ending, but stage progression and boss choices alter. Most importantly, there's no "turning back" like in Rondo without starting from the beginning. In other words, there are consequences. My biggest problem with Rondo is that it is so forgiving and loose. The way the alternate paths are arranged feels like you're cheating the game--kind of like warp zones in Mario. Like when you find Dogether in the swamp level in Rondo, it just makes for an abrupt ending to a level that's hardly had time to develop. A lot of the levels just seem so rushed to me. IE: Compare Rondo's pirate ship to Castlevania III's.

People often complain about the progression of levels in XX, but Rondo makes the same sins, if they even can be called that. The screen transition thing: Rondo's Chapel, for just one example, loops you to the right side of the screen when you are traveling left if you go through the exit instead of the chain elevator at the top/end of the stage.

A few random notes on XX:

*The cross item crash is more tasteful and useful--zigzagging tons of boomerang-crosses across the screen.

*It has a drawn map like the older Castlevanias, as opposed to Rondo's blackened squares and lines, creating a more natural sense of progress.

*Death is a lot harder and more at home at the top of the clock tower.

*Sunken Water Temple is one of my favorite stages in the series.

*Unique visual art style, too, that's sort of like water colors, and it doesn't rely as much on old-fashioned "blocks/tiles/black backgrounds," making it more organic.

*There are neat visual effects, as well, like 3D gears and transparent/warping flames.

*The soundtrack, while it largely borrows from Rondo, is a much better mix with richer sounds.

Sinful, Contra Rebirth is OK, but it's not as tight as some of the older Contras; particularly in design (you can't get extra guys). Contra 4 for DS is the better game for recent entries. I have a high opinion of Castlevania The Adventure Rebirth. Play it on Hard Mode for the best results of strategic game design.

The Castlevania Chronicles PS1 game, either mode, it's a mixed bag for me. There are things I like, but I certainly don't find myself saying I love this entry.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: BingleGod on April 29, 2012, 05:04:49 PM
When people complain about DracX's levels' progression, it's not coming from a perspective of uniqueness but frequency. Which is to say, yes, Rondo -- and others, such as Bloodlines (e.g. Tower of Pisa) -- has inexplicable transitions, but DracX does it more often, and this is augmented by the stages' smaller sizes and poor development of settings. Look at this map of stage 3. (http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/Castlevania-DraculaX-Stage3.png) There are about four thematic decisions, here (castle wall/inner quarters/underground waterway/upper arcade), but the transitions offer no unity in either graphic or level design. This is why I don't buy the argument that DracX's more illustrative map is the deciding factor in describing player process. The map is a reductive abstraction; what really matters are the specifics of the levels themselves, because they are the spaces that you are interacting with on a performative basis.

Sidenotes:
- Why is Death more at home at the top of the clock tower? Because a few of KCET's Metrovania titles had a similar placement? I'll take a Death fight that happens in a special spot over one that's been done a few times since.
- DracX's background art may be qualified as "more organic", but this isn't an intrinisic boon. Why can Rondo's deliberately drawn graphics can be reduced to a "reliance"?
- While defining "richness" in a sonic context is subjective, I think there is a general agreement on its musical implications. In this popular sense, you're probably wrong about DracX's mix having "richer sounds." It has the same problems with equalization that so many other SNES titles do.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 29, 2012, 07:10:00 PM
RichterB, you have no respect! :o HOW DO I GIVE THE MAN RESPECT!!!! This man is beautiful. As he brought up many other good points I thought about too! (I need to give a few other this too if it's within my powers to do so)

Dracula XX--couldn't resist jumping in for a sec.

This entry is high up there on my favorite Castlevanias and, like Sinful, I found it superior to Rondo.

To be clear, XX doesn't have as big of a "scope" as Rondo, but it's a tighter "game" with more traditional challenges like CV 1-4. The Dracula fight is one of the hardest (and most unique) in the series until you learn the correct attack strategy; but even then it requires precision. And "precision" in the name of the game. This game has a learning curve like the older Castlevanias, where you have to plan ahead on jumps and attacks. It feels more satisfying when you get all the timing and enemy placement down. And finding and getting through the alternate routes is rewarding.There are fewer hostages, but they're harder to save and it means more to save them, since not only the ending, but stage progression and boss choices alter. Most importantly, there's no "turning back" like in Rondo without starting from the beginning. In other words, there are consequences. My biggest problem with Rondo is that it is so forgiving and loose. The way the alternate paths are arranged feels like you're cheating the game--kind of like warp zones in Mario. Like when you find Dogether in the swamp level in Rondo, it just makes for an abrupt ending to a level that's hardly had time to develop. A lot of the levels just seem so rushed to me. IE: Compare Rondo's pirate ship to Castlevania III's.

Yeah, when you when you find Dogether in the swamp, that really upsets me as the alternate levels so far seem to be my more preferred levels? And this just cuts a massive chunk of the level! Same with level 2'. Once you go on that ship for the alternate level, WHAM! You've just missed out on half of a level for a mini game. :( Same thing with the raft ride. :( Dang, all the alternate levels are bogus now. Sigh. :( ... The only level I really enjoy from the regular route is "Stage 2: Entrance To Castlevania." ... "Stage 4: Inner Halls Of Castlevania" is my least fav level. It looks so bland and the same throughout. :P ... I think my most fav level is "Stage 5': Hidden Docks" So nice, long, varied (even though is repeats backgrounds), challenge seems to be among the best in this game so far (it's like this is this game's loop 2?), and it's got my fav tune playing! Only too bad you have to of beaten the game to reach it (I just wiped my files to start over and got reminded of this >:().

People often complain about the progression of levels in XX, but Rondo makes the same sins, if they even can be called that. The screen transition thing: Rondo's Chapel, for just one example, loops you to the right side of the screen when you are traveling left if you go through the exit instead of the chain elevator at the top/end of the stage.

Man, even Super Castlevania has some weird transition. Like you exiting to the left after the rotating room, and end up going right in a totally different area next (the spinning like being in a barrel room... and how does room fit in with the rest of the level? It doesn't. They just had a special affect and needed it to add it somewhere).

And yeah, that and that whole chapel is like that, as none of the drops line up at all properly... I also wish when you drop in the earliest part that there were some enemies. But I'll forgive it since it may of been due to technical reason? ie. it could be a load screen for all I know? Luckily I attempt to think about things before I bash, unlike most. ie. "Why isn't the Super Castlevania whip in all the other Castlevania games? This is stupid. There is no reason why it shouldn't. The game sucks. I'm not even gonna bother to give it a chance anymore. >:( Besides, it's on a poo system like the Genesis. :D With Poo graphics and sounds. :P Thank goodness I was raised with only a SNES and I know best. 8) Derp, derp. :P" ... But I'm only human and screw up too sadly like everybody else. :rollseyes:


*It has a drawn map like the older Castlevanias, as opposed to Rondo's blackened squares and lines, creating a more natural sense of progress.

Man, this is one of the biggest problems I have with gaming; When they don't add a decent map. >:( Why the heck doesn't Rondo have it! :o They done everything else style over substance, why not this too? It's robs it of soooooo much imagination. :( They even did a lame job at fixing this for the PSP release version. :( So yeah, the maps in games like XX, SC4 (well, before they got lazier with the in the castle map at least), and CIII are some of my most favourite things about these games without a doubt. ie. Super Mario World 2 to me sucks because of it's stupid, very stupid, attempt at a map. Don't matter that the gameplay is sound. It's ruined to me. ... Same with all the more recent Mario games. After all these years they can't top what was done in Mario 3 & 4? Jerks  >:(... this is why I hate Miyamoto for being only concerned with gameplay. >:(

*Sunken Water Temple is one of my favorite stages in the series.

Mine too! Let's be best friends! :D

*The soundtrack, while it largely borrows from Rondo, is a much better mix with richer sounds.

I went back and forth on this one. Haven't paid enough attention to it yet. But I do recall the first time I played level five in the SNES game. I was blown away by that tune (I was in awe for quite some time. And it was all that was on my mind.... I didn't even care that I was so busy to properly pay attention to them jumping flees as they were murdering me over and over, because that song left me in pure bliss :))... and then when I played the Turbo game, I was was kinda let down by that tune, then I thought it might of sounded better? ... so yeah, my whole comparisons on which game sounds better was based of one track. ;D Besides, i find you don't know your fav tunes until you listen to an entire album enough. and I haven't done this yet. :rollseyes:

One thing is for sure, is that I miss all the non-red book and tunes of gaming before... with the only exception here and there being CD gaming for the PC-Engine CD and Sega CD (basically olden days stuff, when gaming music sounded like gaming and not like an opera).

But it's nice to hear from someone who doesn't only or mostly like the Rondo soundtrack just because it's on CD and has to be superior. Thus this kinda of talk will help others from being brainwashed that the CD tracks has to be the best too and marching in a straight line like a number or brainless soldier.
 
Sinful, Contra Rebirth is OK, but it's not as tight as some of the older Contras; particularly in design (you can't get extra guys). Contra 4 for DS is the better game for recent entries. I have a high opinion of Castlevania The Adventure Rebirth. Play it on Hard Mode for the best results of strategic game design.

The Castlevania Chronicles PS1 game, either mode, it's a mixed bag for me. There are things I like, but I certainly don't find myself saying I love this entry.

Yeah, from playing the first 3 Contra levels of Rebirth in comparison to the classic games, something felt terribly off. But I never fully trust first impressions. I have Contra DS as well (only my brother has the DS these days). The problem I found with this one was the very small DS D-pad. So I barely payed it because of it. But I hear great things about it in comparison to the classics and Rebirth one... Hard mode for Castlevania Rebirth?! That's a great idea! lol (But it just seems like a really great game and would be a same to not make the great experience last for as long as possible).

Castlevania Chronicles PS1 game is a mixed bag for you for in either mode! :o I'll just pretend I didn't hear that for the sake of entering the game with my best mood mode on as to give the game the best chance it deserves, just in case it may end up being one of my fav?

When people complain about DracX's levels' progression, it's not coming from a perspective of uniqueness but frequency. Which is to say, yes, Rondo -- and others, such as Bloodlines (e.g. Tower of Pisa) -- has inexplicable transitions, but DracX does it more often, and this is augmented by the stages' smaller sizes and poor development of settings. Look at this map of stage 3. (http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/Castlevania-DraculaX-Stage3.png) There are about four thematic decisions, here (castle wall/inner quarters/underground waterway/upper arcade), but the transitions offer no unity in either graphic or level design. This is why I don't buy the argument that DracX's more illustrative map is the deciding factor in describing player process. The map is a reductive abstraction; what really matters are the specifics of the levels themselves, because they are the spaces that you are interacting with on a performative basis.

Hmm, why can't you see the big bright side to this? It adds a ton of variety to the levels + this game has a map to strengthen it's levels' progression. So I don't see level progression as a problem at all in this game. ... You mean to tell me you love that boring looking Stage 4: Inner Halls Of Castlevania in Rondo for always looking like the same bland level throughout?
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: BingleGod on April 29, 2012, 09:07:21 PM
Quote from: Sinful
Hmm, why can't you see the big bright side to this? It adds a ton of variety to the levels + this game has a map to strengthen it's levels' progression. So I don't see level progression as a problem at all in this game. ... You mean to tell me you love that boring looking Stage 4: Inner Halls Of Castlevania in Rondo for always looking like the same bland level throughout?

You are using one example from another game and acting like it's proof of cognitive dissonance. I do agree that Rondo's inner halls are fairly tepid and the most uninteresting of the game where visuals are concerned (even if may be argued that this drab monotony is relevant to the prison theme), but this doesn't translate to congratulations for DracX. I think it's a mistake to see DracX's schizophrenia and claim it as a victory for variety; to me, that is overlooking nuance in anticipation of a preconceived, preferential conclusion. It takes more vision and talent to start an idea and see it through permutations than it does to throw spots of disparate ideas together and call the result cohesive through virtue of it all being in the same bag. But, even with that being said, Castlevania is full of transitions that are minimal yet successful; Rondo, for example, moves from a chapel to a cave quite effortlessly just through the barrier of a doorway, a continuation of a similar palette, and having most of the stage be set against darkness.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: RichterB on April 29, 2012, 11:47:49 PM
Sinful:

Glad to be of service. Hey, Dracula XX is not flawless, but like I said, it's definitely one of my favorites, and I find its quirks charming. As far as the music, check out the difference in the stage 1 themes and the water temple/pirate ship levels; I don't know how, but the SNES has a few extra layers in bass and percussion.

...And I have no idea why Death feels more at home on a Clock Tower to me...but he does. lol. In all fairness, I did play XX before Rondo. But I'm one of the later old-school gamer generations who came up with the original trilogy and IV. And when I experienced Dracula XX, that's around the time I realized I am definitely more than a casual fan of the series. Then again, I really enjoy the first two GB games--that includes the original Adventure--and feel to this day that the Nintendo 64 entries were the proper direction for the series in 3D. (Now, I remember being excited for Rondo, and seeing tons of interesting screens over the years; but it just didn't live up to the "popular line" that XX was a cheap knockoff when I did play it. It's the game I keep trying to come back to to be excited, but it comes off very "casual," and more flash, less substance--like you can feel the transformation toward the more inane gameplay of the Castleroids. I just found Rondo feeling a little ragtag itself, despite my love for its attempt to capture the multi-paths of CVIII, and some of its nice stage visual themes. The boat ride is something that is very "throwaway." Cool, *especially* in the 3DCG PSP version, but pretty pointless in terms of gameplay. It could have been more involved, like, say, Stage 2 of Super Ghouls N Ghosts on SNES. I mean, I know XX seems quirky, but the repeating boss rooms you suddenly pop into in Rondo certainly don't match level motifs more often than not. If we're being so particular, isn't that frequent occurrence in Rondo a bit jarring?

And I know Castlevania IV has game-breaking mechanics that make it a bit more casual...and yet, I find it more satisfying than Rondo, as well. CV-IV is high up there for me. It and XX are an amazingly entertaining yin and yang for SNES. Basically, in no order, II, III, IV, XX, Bloodlines, 64/LoD, Adventure, Adventure Rebirth, and Belmont's Revenge are my favorites. Presently, if pressed, I'd say that III, IV, and XX are fighting for spots in the top 3, with Bloodlines and Belmont's Revenge probably close behind.

I don't mean to turn you off to CV Chronicles. It's solid, all and all. It just didn't thrill me, overall. It's grown on me a little...but it was a little bland in some regards. I will say that Arrange Mode is a lot easier than Original Mode, which I've finally gone back to after a while. I think the challenge of Original Mode is more satisfying. There are some stages that take some serious trial and error, but they don't have as much fun in doing so as some other Classicvania entries. (Obviously, Arrange Mode's revised music and sprites are more appealing, though).

The thing about Adventure Rebirth, and few people mention this, is that the level designs change depending on the difficulty setting!!! Therefore, the genius in the game design (which involves elements along the lines of Dracula XX) only shine through in Hard Mode, IMO.

Contra Rebirth is still a fun romp, but it doesn't feel like they totally understood the franchise as much as they did Castlevania in the Rebirth line. Looking past the glaring issue of earning extra lives (which is the whole point of blasting as many baddies as you can), Level 3 has some major hit/platform detection issues. Nevertheless, I find it amusing. Contra 4 DS is a little "familiar," but it hits all the right buttons of the 16-bit era of Contra nearly pitch-perfect. There is supposedly 2 new Contras in the works.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 30, 2012, 02:36:27 AM
Man, RichterB, you speak with such elegance or lack of a better word. You should of jumped in this topic a long time ago and put an end to it long ago. :D I mean dang, how do you even begin to rebuttal what you've just said? I'm speechless myself, and you've made me look up to you and your tastes in the classic vania games you've listed as your fav very much now. Since I'm new to this series, I've still got a lot to learn as to what I'll like best in the end?

It's the game I keep trying to come back to to be excited, but it comes off very "casual," and more flash, less substance--like you can feel the transformation toward the more inane gameplay of the Castleroids.

It's funny that you mention this, because I just had this thought that the Castleroids sucked because they followed Rondo instead of the other games in the series. Since for some reason I have it in my head that Rondo is one of IGA's favourite, if not most fav, classic vania game... oh, and I guess SotN is a sequel to Rondo too or something too?... So yeah, strange to hear you say it, but yeah, it's exactly the feeling I get too.

and feel to this day that the Nintendo 64 entries were the proper direction for the series in 3D.

I've heard this from elsewhere too. But now that you say it, I'm much more convinced.

Never tried these games, but when I do, which one should I start with and what character for the best experience? (Well, the whip guy for sure for the first game I'd imagine, but he has to be unlocked in the second I think?)

Then again, I really enjoy the first two GB games--that includes the original Adventure--

I don't see at all why Adventure warrents so much hate at all outside of a bit of difficulty which seems pretty reasonable to me? Especially considering it's length. It's like people really don't want to put any effort into gaming anymore?

I don't mean to turn you off to CV Chronicles. It's solid, all and all. It just didn't thrill me, overall. It's grown on me a little...but it was a little bland in some regards.

Nah, actually I just played for a very brief bit more just before this post. Made it past the second half of stage 3 (the crystal part), and into stage 4. And it's in this stage that I seen... well let's just say something felt off? I need to play more and see what happens and make sure.

Oh, and no worries about turning me off. It's all good.

The thing about Adventure Rebirth, and few people mention this, is that the level designs change depending on the difficulty setting!!! Therefore, the genius in the game design (which involves elements along the lines of Dracula XX) only shine through in Hard Mode, IMO.

No way!!! So they Incorporated what they learned from working on Gradius Rebirth back into the vania series. Excellent! :D

You see, this all started in the Gradius series (part 2 Arcade is the earliest I know of for sure) to change some level layouts on the second loop. For Gradius Rebirth they apparently took it to the next level by changing it for up to 3 or so loops. So a total of 3 or 4 times per level. :o Pretty cool idea if you ask me. I'm really excited for this game now... I'm thinking if I should save it for last to play and beat now? :-\

Contra Rebirth is still a fun romp, but it doesn't feel like they totally understood the franchise

Exactly what I was thinking too. You see, after playing all the games in a classic series, I find it becomes very easy to tell what fits with the series and what doesn't. And after playing a ton of classic Contra, then going to Rebirth, I could tell right away something was off and that the ream didn't fully understand the series. Just like how Castlevania Legends totally missed the boat for the classic vania games.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Puwexil on April 30, 2012, 05:43:01 AM
As the same issues are being discussed here, with even some of the same people repeating the same old points, I might as well link to a (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,3482.msg68005.html#msg68005) few (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,3482.msg68058.html#msg68058) posts (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,3482.msg68075.html#msg68075) I made pertaining to Dracula X a year ago. I haven't changed my assessment of either it or Rondo; one continues to amaze me with its thoughtless dime-a-dozen design while the other remains stunning in how effortless it makes it all seem. Guess which is which.

One particular thing that needs to be addressed is how Rondo is being treated as "casual" and toned-down in difficulty in the eyes of some, to its detriment. This is a fallacy more than anything. The game is able to create an illusion of a low difficulty level because it's simply the high point of the entire series in terms of the player's capabilities versus what the enemies are able to do to match it. Traditionally, stage-based Castlevania had stacked the odds against the player from the outset, and a slight advantage remained for the game even after fully powering up with whip enhancements and the like. The other extreme is of course the feeling of ultimate player empowerment the exploration-based games utilize, where enemies in the worst cases are lucky to even be able to move before being summarily dispatched by the superhuman, nimble protagonist. Neither approach does a game any good when taken too far.

This is, then, at the crux of Rondo's success in terms of mechanics, where the relationship between Richter and his foes is carefully maintained to be as balanced as possible, divergent from what came before and after. He occupies a middle-ground in terms of mobility, being able to hop across stairs and utilize maneuvers designed to help him out of tight spots and cover for player error, like the subtle whip-lengthening strike, backflipping, turning and whipping backwards in mid-air, and walking backwards. Yet Richter's still confined to exclusively horizontal attacks with the whip, and he's not fully able to control his momentum while jumping like later protagonists. He represents a character that is exactly as agile and maneuverable as he needs to be to take on the enemies on even terms, neither being overmatched or overpowering them himself.

None of this would matter if the enemies weren't designed to counter accordingly, but that's where Rondo's beauty lies. The creatures faced in the game are proactive and aggressive, tailored to hound Richter relentlessly. There is much more focus on personal duels between similarly-abled opponents, usually some form of humanoids. This brings the best out of the game's mechanics, effortlessly making even flat planes exciting to traverse simply because the enemies that inhabit the stages are fun to take on. They are not beefy stonewalls taking hits until they simply expire, but reactive, intelligent combatants. Gargoyles are dodge-prone, the gravekeepers and sword lords teach you to maintain space between zoning enemies, while enemies that come at you from odd angles are combined for effect, like the merman pit with peeping eyes in the second stage. This is a game designed to keep you on your toes through a constantly shifting and evolving cast of foes, placed in the levels with consideration and most importantly, sparingly. The shielded knights are memorable as much because there are only a scant few of them in the game as they are because they are fun to battle.

That was a preamble to examining how Dracula X approaches things, naturally. To summarize, it misuses Rondo's brilliant cast to a great degree. For one thing, it only utilizes a fraction of the enemies, and the more stale, usual ones at that. This robs the game of the strength Rondo displayed in handling humanoid enemies, with nothing to replace it. Secondly, it's extremely in love with certain enemy types, namely medusa heads and spear guards, with which it oversaturates the levels simply because it has no idea what else to do with them. The result is a slog through a monotonous setting filled with monotonous opposition. The lack of memorable uniques hurts the game on a mechanical and atmospheric level. It's as bad about repeating a pattern as the worst-derided exploration games, which is just baffling considering the source material they worked with.

In short, Rondo is a terrific exhibit of balancing the game around the mutual abilities of the player and his enemies, while Dracula X showcases a mismanagement of the same basic building blocks that results in a game that leans on the difficult side, for all the wrong reasons. It's not well-considered at all in design, and championing it for that is empty praise at best.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on April 30, 2012, 02:48:23 PM
I already mentioned that XX has half the levels then Rondo, thus having half the enemies is just about right. And it shouldn't feel like there aren't enough enemies. It only feels like that because you played Rondo know that that game had more enemies. Go play all the other 2D classic vania games and you'll see XX has just about the right amount of enemies.

An yeah, thanks for reminding me of this other problem with Rondo and how XX fixes them. You fight too many enemies solo in Rondo. Boring. ... How so you ask? OK, let's at the last level. It starts out beautifully with one of the best designed Castlevania levels ever, the bridge. This bridge is genius because it's unpredictable and thus you have to use more then one tactic to succeed flawlessly + this scene is nice enough to toss more then one enemy at you + they can pile up too. From here on things start to get boring. Inside you can just quickly climb up the stair and be done with it. The next area you quickly climb down and deal with two enemies total separately and be done with it (you can grab the hidden health too, and deal with one stupid water thing too if you want). Next you climb up almost top the top and deal with zero challenge from them stupid water things, and come up with the only somewhat genius part here. The climbing of this platform that raises yet spins forcing you to keep jumping with the game tossing one medusa head at you at a time. Too bad this this only happens once and for only a brief moment, thus can be easily maneuvered despite it's genius. Next! Boring Alert! Boring Alert! (Plus what you seem to find is this games strength :o) You fight a ton of these boring sword guys solo one at a time back to back. Same boring tactic over and over and over and over and over. Sigh. (oou, but you can backflip!) What where they thinking? And what were you thinking for calling this genius? It's boring and very repetitive. ... oh, and don't even mention them bone dogs as being paired with then sword guys, because it's like they aren't even there (plus you deal with them separate anyways).

You see, this is where XX improves things. They start pairing enemies and situations again like the old Castlevania game instead of fighting and handling everything one at a time. I don't care if that stupid gargoyle thing can dodge, eventually I'll hit him if he somehow eludes me. If I want a one on one fighting game, I'll play a fighting game with much better AI. Not Castlevania game with dirt stupid AI.

And yes, this post may sound harsh, but it's because it's so obvious is why it sounds harsh & I had to make it as obvious as possible in hopes that it would sink in for once. How can this not be seen? Are the only people defending it fans of the Castleroid games? Yes, I can see how these guys wouldn't understand classic vania games, but for fans of classic vania game not to recognize their own kind? :o Well, that pretty baffling.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: thernz on April 30, 2012, 03:44:38 PM
At the very least, Rondo's AI isn't undermined by the level design. Whereas in Dracula XX, there's an instance where you can exploit the red axe armor just by normal gameplay,

(http://i.imgur.com/Ups5f.png)

Because of the way the armor was coded, he will never hurl axes at you in this range. Because of the wall, he'll never reach you. He'll just keep on wailing his axe while you idle about.

Dracula XX also has this strange design choice. You can't kill bats until they're in flight. That means you can't take out bats while they're hanging. They're invincible. I'm not sure how anyone could justify that. It's completely dissonant from the rest of the game. Why can't you hit an enemy until they're in a certain state when you're in range and all that jazz?

(http://i.imgur.com/0RaSi.png)

That particular bat doesn't even activate by the player's distance. It gets triggered by the player jumping, which is pretty cheap in Castlevania considering the amount of commitment a player has when they jump. That combined with the illogicality of not being able to attack the bat just screams bad and cheap design to me.

Gotta also adore the random pillars in the cavern. Just there. Not supporting anything. Not serving any use as a pillar. Just there, because hey, let's put pillars.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Puwexil on April 30, 2012, 03:47:24 PM
I already mentioned that XX has half the levels then Rondo, thus having half the enemies is just about right. And it shouldn't feel like there aren't enough enemies. It only feels like that because you played Rondo know that that game had more enemies. Go play all the other 2D classic vania games and you'll see XX has just about the right amount of enemies.

What does the number of stages in the game have to do with anything in relation to the enemies featured therein and how they're utilized? The point, here, is that Dracula X uses a truncated Rondo cast, to supremely routine, workmanlike results, without an ounce of imagination or creativity. They had such good reference material in creating an alternate take on the game for a different platform, but chose to go about it in the most boring way possible, leaving out much of what gave the original its identity. Had they replaced the omissions with something else that worked, it would've been alright, but they didn't. Dracula X has next to no original ideas to call its own, and the scant few it does are usually misguided in practice.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: RichterB on April 30, 2012, 11:15:42 PM
I'm going to treat this as a dialogue rather than an argument, if possible. Yes, this conversation has been held before in other manifestations. I don't intend to "win" anything, I just am going to throw out some thoughts to chew on.

WARNING: Wall of text, incoming [As is popular to say these days]

I played Rondo last night: the pirate ship level, level 1, level 2', and the swamp. I wanted a quick Castlevania play and I wanted to see if I've judged the game wrong. Unfortunately, I came up with that same disappointment, wanting to love it and have a lot of fun with its scope, but coming up feeling somehow bored. First thing I noticed was there is a good deal of one-on-one, like a fighter, like Sinful said. For the first time, I realized one of my issues with Rondo--it has some of that halt-the-pace "arena fighting" that the post-N64 3D Castlevanias are so fond of. Rather than having a lot of traps and death pits in a forward-moving, thinking-on-your-feet rhythm, you end up walking into a corridor/room, stopping, and going one-on-one; and often, the AI isn't even interesting enough to warrant it. You can kind of muscle your way through. Now, level specific...

Level 1: To be frank, you walk forward a short distance, go up a one-screen staircase, walk forward a short distance, go down a one-screen staircase. During this, you will run into, what, 5 bone apes that are sitting ducks, and two skeleton ninja-types who don't offer much more in their environment. From here, you can choose to go forward and go on a one-one-one fighter battle with golems in what is essentially a long, repeating corridor. Or, you can go left to the secret passage. That secret passage, after one poltergeist, drops you down into a basement (?) that lets you choose left or right. Given stage progression, it's pretty obvious to go right; but if you go left, you can have a pointless battle with a plant. And the statues, who point which way to go, have a nice laugh at you. That's pretty random, and not much of a punishment if it was supposed to be. Meanwhile, you go right, and the stage is over. You're suddenly on a water-bucket ride to the boss. Maybe that basement was an underground aqueduct? The level is short and essentially disposable, even for an intro stage, and the short cut makes it even shorter and easier.

The whole idea of the first official level having a split path seems confused game design, as they've given you a choice before they've even established a rhythm to the core level design. The intro cut-scene level where you have a chat with Death already established whipping and jumping to an extent, but a linear chariot doesn't exactly set up the core level design of the game, before it can introduce its multi-path hook. So, rather than a complete surprise, the option of an extra path, which is easy enough to stumble upon, becomes less significant as a change-up/curve ball. The stage design of Dracula XX takes more advantage of showing you the ropes while not holding you by the hand, establishing a core rhythm. And, it takes advantage of the brilliant setting originally presented in Rondo, by having you interact with more burned-out buildings and structures. It feels like this town has been totally besieged. Again with the core design, the enemies take full advantage of their environment to try to knock you in precarious spots, making you think fast and ahead to strategically survive.

Level 2': This has been one of my favorite stages in the past (daylight near Drac's entrance!), but I noticed a few things when I step back. First, we have air-floating candles. Rondo is not guiltless! (As for those Dracula XX pillars in the cave--I thought it was a creative (if convenient) atmosphere where Dracula's Castle has its foundations build into the earth…or maybe it’s part of an ancient ruin site. It plays with the imagination). Anyway, once again, the split path comes very early, and it's almost forced upon you when the floor breaks if you're not paying attention, because it has you eying your enemy so much in a one-on-one battle.

It hit me that this stage may have been the inspiration for the infamous stage 3 of Dracula XX with the medusa pillars. Here's why that is better, IMO, though. Here, when you fall, if you die on the moat ride, you return to before you fell, erasing the consequence of your inexperience. In Dracula XX, the consequence is you fail to save the girls, and you have to fight Annette herself on the clock tower. You have the curiosity to continue forward, and then later realize your mistake and start again on a new code or with a password. And speaking of the medusa pillars, as tricky as they are, they feel both more fair and more interesting of a problem to solve to me in their patterns than the merman that start popping up in droves, and you basically have to stay on the front of the boat and whip quickly, and hope they don't get you in a chain of knockbacks. Both scenarios can be considered cheap, but to not acknowledge they are of the same basic ilk would be unfair.

By the way, speaking of consequences, the reward for surviving the medusa heads gives you a chance to rescue both girls by holding onto that key, which allows you to succeed in the game in one true path you work to discover and overcome.

Swamp level: Like I said before, I don't like the abrupt ending of the Dogether path, even though it's a fascinating gameplay mechanic in theory. And what's with the mid-boss on, like, the second screen of the level, and the secret passage before that, which gives you the power to annihilate it. It makes a pretty sight, but even without the secret bonus equipment, this purple skull thing goes down way too easily.

Pirate ship/ghost ship: The introduction is classic in nature, but seems a bit off somehow in the way you can muscle through it. The skull heads from the water are neat, but don't match the motif as well as the water skulls used in XX's Sunken Temple, which were put instead in Rondo's Clocktower to, IMO, lesser effect. This level's shortcut doesn't give you much difference, except a chance at an extra life by whacking what appears to be a mechanical engine(?!) That seems out of place and very quirky--more than needed. The duels with the skeleton archers and such a just little tired—padding-like. And then we get that "cheap, cheap, cheap" painting enemy. Really funny, ripping me up like that. An item crash has something to say about that. The whole thing doesn't seem fair either way to me. That part irks me.

Dracula XX may not have all the enemies or bosses of Rondo, but it does have some new ones of its own that are pretty nice. The Cerberus is a nice change-up for an opening boss; the underground swamp cave Necromancer is totally cool with its ability to slow you down, summon skeletons, and toss graves around (or use them as shields); and the tragic Annette boss is more involved than Rondo's Carmilla with its mobile magic eyes, and even inspired a turn of events for the PSP revision of Rondo.

Now, Sinful, as far as Adventure Rebirth and the Nintendo 64 games...

Adventure Rebirth has probably been the only recent Castlevania game that really lived up to the name (as I see it) and made me hopeful for the series. That said, while it does a lot with what little resources were likely allocated toward it, and is very clever in its own right, it's not necessarily as impactful as its 16-bit brethren. You can play it whenever you want, but I don't know that there's a rush, considering it was the last Classicvania-style game released. As I said, I think the game's genius really shows in Hard Mode--where it is really a struggle for survival the way the enemies are placed and the obstacles are designed, and you have to use every resource available
(click to show/hide)
--whereas the other modes are just average, maybe even casual CV romps. (Thanks for the Gradius history lesson. I wasn't aware of that, as I have only casually followed that Konami series for some reason).

The Nintendo 64 games are basically a case of games that came around at the wrong time. People wanted SotN on N64, or a 3D equivalent. The Nintendo 64 games are instead a 3D blend of Castlevania IV and II with late 90's survival horror-ish and/or Tomb Raider-ish elements. (And given that those latter two have things in common with Castlevanias of the past, it's a clever mix to move the series forward while still being true to it). It's especially nice that these are the only two 3D Castlevanias that don't rely on the fixed camera, hack-n-slash arena fighter formula for primary level design.

Castlevania 64 or CV64 (just called Castlevania on the box) was first, followed shortly after by Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness (LoD). Basically, the creators (no longer major forces behind Castlevania these days) had a big vision--bigger than either of these games based on interviews and beta versions. However, the time crunch caught them. CV64 was a complete game, but only roughly half of what their vision was actually made it into the product. So, through one means or another, they were allowed a few more months after CV64 was released to continue working on the game--for a revised expansion of CV64, if you will. Even then, the final result was seemingly only maybe 85-90% of what they wanted based those on earlier interviews/betas (swinging across gaps like IV and Bloodlines, shown in a pilot-promo video, was still left on the cutting room floor, for example, even though some of the latches to connect to were left "visually" in the game on some areas).
 
The released results, however, remain rather compelling despite being a bit rough around the edges, and each gives a distinctive, engaging experience dripping with CV “mood.” I haven't played LoD since it came out and I beat its first character's quest on a rental, but I still own and play CV64, so I'm going to give you a limited assessment partially from memory and recent research. I'll just spell out the basic contrasts of these games, similar to what you'd find on the back of a box, but not give away specific spoilers. (BTW, I still plan to track down a copy of LoD in the future, unless it’s released in some sort of collection or as an official download).

Now, CV64 and LoD share some levels, but like Rondo and Dracula XX, they have completely different layouts, goals, and/or enemies/bosses. For those levels they share, the differences become a personal preference, as the freshness of the alterations are welcome, but the differences often make you miss one game's level layout or the other. On the other hand, each game, depending on the character you use, gives you new levels/routes with totally unique themes/locations. That gives it a bit of a CVIII feel at times. (So, in essence, this variety makes you want to play both games for the full experience. LoD is more than a simple remake of CV64, and vice-versa).

Other differences include the cast of characters [and their outfits] and the story. CV64 has 2 characters, LoD has 4. LoD's main [starter] werewolf-ish character serves as a prequel chapter to the story of CV64, and manages to fit well into the CV world. LoD worked to hone the camera a bit more, and it added more power-ups and such for game balance--it skews the game a bit easier, though, IIRC.

As you noted, the main whip character, a personal favorite, has to be unlocked in LoD, whereas you can choose him from the start in CV64. It's my opinion that CV64 should be played first; although, keep in mind that it's a little rougher around the edges than LoD. I think you'd like CV64 to start with given your tastes here so far, as it's a little harder, it has a whip character to start with, and some of its levels are superior to their remade versions in terms of old-school philosophy. ***Level 2 of CV64 is a near-perfect translation of 2D Classicvania in 3D, which no other game post-N64 era has gotten close to, IMO.*** It's followed up by a 3rd level that is a fan favorite, showing off the potential for growth/depth for CV in 3D.

Honestly, these games were way ahead of their time (if I gave my list of "why," it'd have some spoilers, so I won't). But maybe they were a bit too ambitious for their platform. I don't know that they're better than the best of the 2D games, but they show the amazing potential that Castlevania in 3D could possibly equal or surpass those if built from these games as a starting point. Unfortunately, because they have such a controversial history, Konami has all but buried them, and each of the succeeding 3D games tried to build off of other combo-based formulas like Devil May Cry and God of War to far more mixed, and dare I say, series-compromising results.

The reason I'm not around here much is that the recent turn of events in the series has pretty much alienated me, and the lack of good news upsets me. The series ultimately hit a dead end with the repetitive Castleroids (some of which were better than others and deserve some credit), and then the 3D series was so mismanaged post-N64 that it ended in a reboot, Lords of Shadow, that re-imagines Castlevania so much, and uses 3D in such an amorphous, trend-heavy way, that it's like the series doesn't believe in itself anymore. It’s like it feels it has to keep the barest surface elements and largely follow popular design trends to be like other popular games to make Castlevania relevant. Mixing games like God of War, Shadow of the Colossus, Uncharted, and movies like Lord of the Rings, Van Helsing, and Underworld doesn’t add up to Castlevania, IMO.
 
In general summation: CV64 and LoD=huge strides in right direction; PS2 Lament of Innocence = one step forward, three steps backward; PS2/XBOX Curse of Darkness equals one step forward, one step to the side, and three steps backward; Wii's Judgment equals three steps to the side; PS3/XBOX360 Lords of Shadow equals one step forward, three steps to the side, three steps backward. Any improvements in the recent 3D games always seem to come at the cost of the series' identity and/or gameplay; it's just sad to me. And because it sold decently, Lords of Shadow is the series’ near-future identity now. :'( (Maybe they'll totally rework the sequel's art direction, gameplay, level design, and story...but I doubt it'll be able to change significantly enough. I bought LoS at full price, even though I had very, very shaky feelings about it, and while amusing in its own right, it confirmed my greatest fears for the franchise).

Right now, in the least, I'm hoping that Bloodlines, Dracula XX, and the two N64 games come to Wii Virtual Console (along with Contra: Hard Corps, since we mentioned Contra). But even all of that is questionable.

PS: Sinful, which Castlevanias have you played?

PPS: Yeah, I have "no respect." Ha-ha! I just realized what you meant by that a page back. (This Respect Option--however it works--is new since I was last really active here. But, hey, anybody who gives XX any credit over Rondo isn't going to be super popular). Regardless, thank you.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 01, 2012, 03:51:55 AM
At the very least, Rondo's AI isn't undermined by the level design. Whereas in Dracula XX, there's an instance where you can exploit the red axe armor just by normal gameplay,

(http://i.imgur.com/Ups5f.png)

Because of the way the armor was coded, he will never hurl axes at you in this range. Because of the wall, he'll never reach you. He'll just keep on wailing his axe while you idle about.

Dracula XX also has this strange design choice. You can't kill bats until they're in flight. That means you can't take out bats while they're hanging. They're invincible. I'm not sure how anyone could justify that. It's completely dissonant from the rest of the game. Why can't you hit an enemy until they're in a certain state when you're in range and all that jazz?

First you complain for being able to use cheap tactics, then you complain because you can't? Are you for real?

And in regards to finding cheap tactics, this is something that applies to all video games. You want me to go on a field day listing you all the ones for Rondo? How about me telling Ritchier B how to more easily defeat the very cheap for one shot killing you painting for starter? (Funny, they complain about XX being cheap and not this and other examples in Rondo? Yeah, it all comes down to favoritism bias these days sadly :(); to easily kill this enemy without using item crash, just go to the very right before climbing that slight platform rise, turn around, and each time he comes just jump and whip. He's defenseless. As he won't come nearer, as he'll just come and leaver, and repeat his pathetic attack again & again to no avail.  ;D


Anywho, I read Ritcher B reply first, then this one (haven't even read the last paragraph thernz wrote) which made me hurry to put in a very quick reply. But I'm in a hurry, to leave this morning. When I come back I'll reply to Ritcher B (who I must keep in touch with this guy at all costs, lol) and then read & finish the other guys' posts.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Puwexil on May 01, 2012, 05:05:58 AM
For some reason there's this willful ignorance going on about the merit of atmosphere, ambiance, and worldbuilding in regards to the design of both Rondo and Dracula X. Take that whole critique about Rondo's opening stage (http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/TG16/Castlevania-RondoOfBlood%28J%29-Stage1-VillageRuins.png), for instance. You want to know why it's good? I'll tell you why: because it creates a convincing setting that it reinforces through intelligent enemy placement and a sensible layout, lending it a tremendous sense of place. You'll note how the street level stays consistent throughout to the very end as it would in a settled city area, how the theme of a town being razed is strengthened by enemies crashing through windows of the houses they've pillaged, how the water seen on the upper levels flows into an underground pool where an oversized plant makes its dwelling (this is especially fantastic), how the platforms you use to reach the alternate boss are actually buckets part of a water-drawing system, working in unison with the aqueduct connecting to the lake (said aqueduct being the setting of the following stage). A lone poltergeist occupies an abandoned house, signifying the flight and demise of the townspeople.

This relatively brief length of the game practically constitutes a whole world unto itself, and is so satisfying to experience every time that it's kind of impossible for me to undermine its worth in terms of mechanics (which are sound; see for example the pleasant rhythmical flow of the section in the upper levels where you react to surprise enemy attacks while counteracting thrown barrels with axes). It's very inventive, and very interesting.

Dracula X's counterpart stage (http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/Castlevania-DraculaX-Stage1.png) takes the same basic concept and proceeds to do nothing with it. There are no eyecatches, nothing going on in the level design or enemy selection to suggest that this is more than a rudimentary stage in a video game. Its internal logic is wonky to the point of being distracting, in how after climbing up an extended indoor section, and some hop-and-skip on rooftops (I guess? Not much to go on there, visually), it follows that up with solid ground, on street level again. I don't think towns work like that! The proper stage section is then concluded with the Behemoth chase, lifted from Rondo, in which it was foreshadowed by showing its menacing eyes lurking about in the darkness, and then having it crash through a wall with great impact. In Dracula X, it materializes out of thin air, and is hilariously beheaded at the end for no real reason, other than that's what happened in Rondo. Only there, its head fell off because its rotting carcass slammed against a solid brick wall. That was wonderfully morbid and made sense, yet Dracula X somehow manages to waste the effect. That's really the underlying relationship it has with Rondo: imitation without purpose or logic.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 01, 2012, 08:04:12 AM
That particular bat doesn't even activate by the player's distance. It gets triggered by the player jumping, which is pretty cheap in Castlevania considering the amount of commitment a player has when they jump. That combined with the illogicality of not being able to attack the bat just screams bad and cheap design to me.

You don't see that this is well design? Well, that's why you have no understanding on this topic.

You want cheap, look at that painting in Rondo. It's only there to one shot first timers. Afterwards it's waste of time because it's too poorly designed to do anything afterwards. Why do you think I came up with that tactic? Because that enemy seemed to me to have a limit in it's range, meaning he can't reach you if you are on the right side of the screen.  So all that is left is for you to  get just within reach and keeping kitting him.

To me it seems you don't want good game design that challenges you, you want game design that pretends to be challenging and yet is easy to defeat.

Gotta also adore the random pillars in the cavern. Just there. Not supporting anything. Not serving any use as a pillar. Just there, because hey, let's put pillars.

What I see here is substance over style. Something that has been forgotten about in Castlevania and in gaming in general. The cure is to go back to NES gaming. :)

What does the number of stages in the game have to do with anything in relation to the enemies featured therein and how they're utilized? The point, here, is that Dracula X uses a truncated Rondo cast, to supremely routine, workmanlike results, without an ounce of imagination or creativity. They had such good reference material in creating an alternate take on the game for a different platform, but chose to go about it in the most boring way possible, leaving out much of what gave the original its identity. Had they replaced the omissions with something else that worked, it would've been alright, but they didn't. Dracula X has next to no original ideas to call its own, and the scant few it does are usually misguided in practice.

Well, the less level space you have, you'd figure the less enemies you'd need... no?

You know it's weird, when you add both Rondo's and XX's maps together, in my mind it would seem that Rondo doubles XX. Yet when you play through both of them, it feels like XX doubles Rondo in length. Especially if you stick only to the second route and for your first playthrough, because of the warp world method Richter B was talking about that drastically cuts the length of the levels. Yet among one of Rondo's most praise comes from these multiple routes, but most of them are shortcuts. I can only think of 3 levels that have a true second paths through (3,4,5').

The proper stage section is then concluded with the Behemoth chase, lifted from Rondo, in which it was foreshadowed by showing its menacing eyes lurking about in the darkness, and then having it crash through a wall with great impact. In Dracula X, it materializes out of thin air, and is hilariously beheaded at the end for no real reason, other than that's what happened in Rondo. Only there, its head fell off because its rotting carcass slammed against a solid brick wall. That was wonderfully morbid and made sense,

lol, the bull hits a wall and explodes. Yeah, that makes sense. :D

it follows that up with solid ground, on street level again. I don't think towns work like that!

Look, each time the scene's change in XX, it doesn't mean the next scene it right next to the last one. You know that, right?... Besides, this just shows the XX team concentrated on substance over style by worrying of design more then how it all fit together. The Rondo team concentrated on style first and tried to make substance work somehow in the end... and failed.

(Thanks for the Gradius history lesson. I wasn't aware of that, as I have only casually followed that Konami series for some reason).

Yeah, at first the Gradius series  and Konami shmups in general I didn't get what all the fuss was about? But I pushed myself to give these games at least enough playtime/chance, and then all of a sudden it clicked with me and everything made sense. It's so far my fav shooter series by far until I discover something better... I most prefer part 2,3, 4 for the Arcade, and Gradius Gaiden for PS1... I think they dumbed down the Gradius 3 port for SNES big time. So because of this the fun doesn't last forever, unlike the other games I mentioned in the series.

The Nintendo 64 games...

Wow, what you wrote from here and onwards blew me away in amasemnet. Plus shows that you really know your games & Castlevania series very well. And why I hope you don't leave this place forever and to be sure you drop in every now and then.

PS: Sinful, which Castlevanias have you played?

Well, I have access to all the Castlevania thanks to emulation until I get the rest that I don't have. So I've at least played all the classic Castlevania games. But only beat part 4, Rondo, and XX. Bloodlines I played the most so far but still haven't beat, lol. But that's also because I've been switching between 3 versions and messing around with the difficulty too between all to and not using any passwords. But I'm in no rush to beat it. I'm having to much fun playing it over and over as is... but now I'm gonna stick with the more balanced/tuned/harder US version of this game... same with Castlevania III, which I played the US version for the first time yesterday (played a translated rom before), and found out that I much prefer the extra game balance added. The tunes as fine as is for this one too. And besides, I love seeing big differences between different versions... too bad Super Castlevania doesn't have any differences game balance wise between regions or that Rondo had a US release with fixed up difficulty.



And yeah, I'm not one for following the major crowds either. I always seem to find I like stuff many others don't, and I don't mind it at all this way.ie. instead of liking Metalica, I absolutely love Megadeth. And though I sometimes feel that Megadeth deserves much more fame, I fell that if they do get it, their music may suffer much more? So I'm happy the way things are for them... only for gaming it doesn't work so well, because games have taken such a wrong direction these days because people support so much crap. And with how much games cost to make today, companies will not take any risks anymore, and like you said, why Castlevania it following what's hip instead of doing it's own thing. :( ... Man, the majority are always wrong. :( Notice any relation?



... I'm just remembering a friend of mine who like Castlevania told me that he loves the PS2 versions, especially the second PS2 game, way better then the classic games. Tries to convince me by showing me YouTube videos and what not, but man, them game don't interest me at all, lol.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on May 01, 2012, 09:20:57 AM
I'll chime in with Stage 1 'cuz people seem to be missing the obvious:

Rondo of Blood's Stage 1 is layed out practically identically to Simon's Quest's (CVII) town stages.  The reason the enemies are placed in those locations makes perfect sense and gives the player a sense of nostalgia if they're a fan and have played Simon's Quest.  The new touches show the modern stuff done in between Simon's Time and Richter's time (the newer building in the 'park' street where the stone warriors are, the water-bucket well system that ties to the aqueduct, etc.).  Also, in an odd twist of events, the entrance to Dracula's Castle is right outside of this town, even though the sign says "Aljiba" (CV2's Aljiba was not really near the castle, maybe the castle was raised on top of Laruba Mansion and the graveyard and swamp were remodeled into a street and entrance?).  Also, the entrance is the same as the entrance from Super Castlevania IV, though in the SNES, Simon had no enemies at all near there, haha.

One of the reasons Rondo seems to win here is the huge chunk of nostalgia being thrown at you in a lot of its stages.

DraculaXX's Stage 1 is layed out practically identically to Dracula's Curse's (CVIII) stage.  They even put the same rotoblock platforms with medusaheads and the same bats on the building wall (only the building is just 'building on fire' instead of the inside of the church).  Only instead of a lonely graveyard, you've got a developed street (same as Rondo's park and buildings) on fire, and you're chased by Behemos (who chases you in a completely different area in Rondo).

If there are people out there judging gameplay based on either of these stages, I encourage you to take a step back and consider why these stages are designed the way they are: It's quite possible that the developers are giving you as a player a sense of familiarity.  The minute I was trudging through DraculaXX I'm like "Hah, CVIII comes back yay!" and in Rondo "Wow Aljiba is being ransacked by evil!", etc.

They built the stage, then populated it with enemies they thought would fit.  It's like two artists drawing inspiration from two different sources but using the same set of paints.

Gameplay-wise, I wish the DXX Backflip had more usage and that it was activated in the same gameplay manner as Rondo (in DraculaXX it's considerably slower and doesn't seem to be as high, and Richter 'slips' more after it), that Richter's invincibility window after damage wasn't so unforgiving, and that some enemy placements would have been a little bit more intelligent.  I like the gameplay for Rondo more, but only for Richter's movement.  Hell you can't even moonwalk in DraculaXX (even though there were very few instances where one would use that move).
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Puwexil on May 01, 2012, 09:50:33 AM
You know it's weird, when you add both Rondo's and XX's maps together, in my mind it would seem that Rondo doubles XX. Yet when you play through both of them, it feels like XX doubles Rondo in length.

Dracula X feels longer than Rondo with less stages because its stages are much longer. Most of Rondo's content is spread out over multiple paths, and divergent routes; a single playthrough does not encapsulate the entirety of it. This leads to a brisk pace, with the game never overstaying its welcome while whisking you from one setpiece to the next. Dracula X drags its non-eventful stages for too long and never deviates from a set pattern. Stages just come to screeching halt, and boredom is imminent in the interim.

lol, the bull hits a wall and explodes. Yeah, that makes sense. :D

Everything explodes in these games. It's a visual effect. Do you expect literal realism? The point is that Rondo's Behemoth follows an internal logic, maintaining reasonable cause-and-effect. It grants the moment visceral feedback that is not present in the Dracula X incarnation.

Look, each time the scene's change in XX, it doesn't mean the next scene it right next to the last one. You know that, right?... Besides, this just shows the XX team concentrated on substance over style by worrying of design more then how it all fit together. The Rondo team concentrated on style first and tried to make substance work somehow in the end... and failed.

Patently untrue. Omissions of flow can be overlooked inbetween stages (though Rondo usually goes the extra mile and makes even these transitions work), but within a singular level, I expect things to occupy space and lead to each other in a way that does not contradict itself. It wrecks the believability of the world on a base level that directly affects enjoyment of the setting - a very important part of these games. If thought is not put into the level design, you might as well roll out honest props instead of a pretend-world.

You know, this is a really interesting topic to discuss, but it could probably do without all the snide insinuations and casual rudeness.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: thernz on May 01, 2012, 10:05:05 AM
First you complain for being able to use cheap tactics, then you complain because you can't? Are you for real?
I can't see why a game can't have both cheap and exploitable spots. Both are flaws of design. It's not like it's the same level design over and over again. Each segment should be individual valued on its own.

I'm not sure how using an axe is cheap either.

You don't see that this is well design? Well, that's why you have no understanding on this topic.

You want cheap, look at that painting in Rondo. It's only there to one shot first timers. Afterwards it's waste of time because it's too poorly designed to do anything afterwards. Why do you think I came up with that tactic? Because that enemy seemed to me to have a limit in it's range, meaning he can't reach you if you are on the right side of the screen.  So all that is left is for you to  get just within reach and keeping kitting him.

To me it seems you don't want good game design that challenges you, you want game design that pretends to be challenging and yet is easy to defeat.
It's a design paradigm in Castlevania for the bats to activate by distance. By having the bat activated by a jump, the bat becomes both cheap and exploitable. For first time players, they'll have no idea how to hit the bat, because axes will go right through it (Which how is that good design? I think you should let the player kill enemies if they're in range. You can defeat bats  that way in every other Castlevania).

So with that narrow spacing, the player is unable to react properly This is the same kind of cheap you say the painting purports, because it demands the player be familiar with this particular scenario before they can tackle it the right way. But then, you can also just keep walking left, go out of the intended flow, and the bat never activates. I'm not sure how it's challenge rather than simple memorization. This is more of a general complaint about the bat's invincibility though.

The painting isn't really that cheap. Its start up gives you ample time to prepare, and it gives appropriate feedback. It's pretty obvious that with each recoil it's going faster.

What I see here is substance over style. Something that has been forgotten about in Castlevania and in gaming in general. The cure is to go back to NES gaming. :)
Didn't you riff on Rondo for having a less stylistic map than Dracula XX? I don't see why you're calling me out on style over substance, when it was a side remark, when the rest of my arguments were about enemy placement and AI. You yourself said, "Super Mario World 2 to me sucks because of it's stupid, very stupid, attempt at a map."
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Flame on May 01, 2012, 10:50:59 AM
Quote
The cure is to go back to NES gaming.
Oh I see how it is. You're one of THOSE people.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Soulsteal on May 01, 2012, 12:09:55 PM
Well, in Classicvania's use sub-weapons, you need to plan your attacks, Holy Water lingers and can take care of Fleamen, Axe is helpful for those annoying Crows in level 3 of CV1, the Cross is helpful for most bosses and Bone Towers, and the throwing knife, USELESS. The game was "Realistic", you dont jump incredibly high, you jump at a normal human height, Humans cannot control jumps, you cannot whip incredibly fast IRL, it takes a second to fire up, if you got punched in the face by a demon, you would be sent flying, Konami tried to make the game challenging, but only if you didnt pay attention to the games limits, taking alot of damage is something you should get used to, again, if you got punched in the face by a Demon, it would leave you with a broken skulll, brain damage, a numb face and 2 black eyes.

So that is why Classicvanias are usually turned down by people just getting into the series.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 01, 2012, 02:01:32 PM
Oh I see how it is. You're one of THOSE people.

What people?

You want to know why this is a cure? Because games now a days give players too much freedom and abilities to much more easily dispose of enemies. And because this everybody now expects every game their hero posses all kinds of powers and controls to dispose of their enemies. ie. People complain that Metal Slug could have been better if he could aim shots in every direction like in the Contra series (Videogame Nerd made this comment about Terminator CD too). So now every game has to be like Contra? What's next? Bionic Commando sucks because the control suck due to not having a jump ability? This is why people say classic Castlevania games have bad controls, because it has knock backs and no control over jumps. These aren't bad controls, they are just fine, because the game was designed with these controls in mind. You don't think the developers know that if a Medusa head hits you on a platform that you'll plunge to your death? Yes they do, and it's not a game flaw.

Another thing is keeping things simple equals much tighter game design. The more variables you throw in, the harder it becomes to balance the game. Look at Final Fantasy Tactics and what a balance mess it is because of all the abilities that game showers you with. There is no way in hell that game could have ever been properly balanced from the mess it is. So yeah, next time you think the classic Castlevania games have bad controls for being too simple, remember that the game and gaming is much better for it.

Thus, people need to go back to NES gaming to have a better understanding of what makes games good. Because everybody it blind to style over substance only nowadays, and back then it wasn't as one sided as it is now + limited technology forced developers to help keep things simple too. ;)
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 01, 2012, 04:36:14 PM
You know, this is a really interesting topic to discuss, but it could probably do without all the snide insinuations and casual rudeness.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot about this mention (just came back to me while I was offline). And yeah, if I upset anyone in anyway, I truly apologize. ... I think I should lay of this topic for a bit and let others see where they take it for a change?... I'll go punish myself by playing some Ron... er, Dracula XX SNES. ... Then sometime later I should eventually look into punishing myself further with some Castlevania 64. Woohoo!!!... er, I mean, boohoo. :'(




To the person that quoted my Mario World 2 world map thingy; Yes, all substance and no style greatly upsets me too. I already mentioned this... and if it wasn't for Rondo's style, I don't think I'd be  playing it anymore? Nor anyone else for that matter.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Abnormal Freak on May 01, 2012, 04:52:00 PM
and if it wasn't for Rondo's style, I don't think I'd be  playing it anymore? Nor anyone else for that matter.

This right here is the very problem of your whole argument, why you come off as so snide. It's like you're implying that everyone who enjoys games in a way opposite to you are in Stupidville and that the only reason they like a game is because of a reason unrelated to the core basics of gameplay; in the case of Rondo, being "style over substance." No matter how many times and ways people will defend the legitimately fun and creative design aspects of Rondo, you'll brush that off as meaningless—"the player is blinded by style/nostalgia/popular opinion, LOL!" That attitude has been rampant in every one of your posts since the very first.

In my opinion, Rondo is both style AND substance—and most importantly, substance over style. It's designed exceptionally well and is super fun to play—but there's no reason to go into detail about why it's designed so well because others have already done so, and apparently to you their case means nada.

As for Yoshi's Island...it's the greatest damn game ever. ;) Another example of both great style and substance but being substance over style because the gameplay and ingenuity is just so creative and entertaining. What does it matter that its map is basic and pretty? It's meant to be a level selection, not a map proper—and raging that "OHHHHH I HATE THAT GAME AND MIYAMOTO GODDAMN HIM FOR NOT HAVING A REAL MAP! >:(" is totally silly.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on May 01, 2012, 05:06:06 PM
Sinful: For the love of all the gods in the world... it's "Could Have", not "could have".
I wanna read your points and this continuously obstructs me from doing so properly.

I enjoy my retro games and "Nintendo Hard" gameplay and all, but DraculaXX has some serious setbacks that a little tweaking of the engine could have polished.
That's the word... it's presented well but its gameplay lacks polish, which, is another minus point considering Rondo's gameplay mechanics feel slightly better polished.  Considering that DraculaXX came out later, it's kind of "no we're not gonna look at all at what the Rondo team did, we're gonna do our own thing".

At least, that's what it seems like.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: BingleGod on May 01, 2012, 08:49:46 PM
Quote from: Sinful
Thus, people need to go back to NES gaming to have a better understanding of what makes games good. Because everybody it blind to style over substance only nowadays, and back then it wasn't as one sided as it is now + limited technology forced developers to help keep things simple too. ;)

This is close to being boring, unsupported retro-fetishism. I think the issue of challenge is more complicated than just saying that designers should look to the past, as if all the answers are there. This ignores the reality that the majority of difficult games from more than two decades ago were difficult because of poor design that attempted to augment playtime through piling on player failure; it also ignores that, as people who grew up playing videogames, most of us have gotten better at playing them, and this makes interaction with new games easier. Also, it suggests that a game isn't good unless it pressures the player to fail, which is an idea that's around only because most videogames have, in part, been about explicit competition. I think you and other members of the forum have probably arrived at a point of fundamental disagreement for what you look for in videogames -- what your preferences are, and what you can overlook in favor of accomplishments elsewhere. DraculaX isn't so inventively challenging of a game to draw me -- it's fairly plain in level design --, and RoB has enough creativity in its stage design and overall aesthetic that I'm not bothered by not dying everywhere.

To the person that quoted my Mario World 2 world map thingy; Yes, all substance and no style greatly upsets me too.

What does this have to do with Yoshi's Island? It's an exceptionally designed platformer. Your comment's pretty ironic, given that it was, supposedly, Miyamoto's reaction to what he saw as shiny shallowness in Donkey Kong Country.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 02, 2012, 08:59:11 AM
Sinful: For the love of all the gods in the world... it's "Could Have", not "could have".
I wanna read your points and this continuously obstructs me from doing so properly.

lol, I just got reminded by someone posting a Keanu Reeves pic that my second language is from the same Romania as these games are portrayed in... and man, that movie really used some really old dialect of Romanian as I could barely pick up what they were saying. Had to ask my mom why they talked so funny when she gave me that answer... So I guess they really put in some effort to making that movie historically correct in how they talked back then... but to be honest, there really are quiet a few accents of Romanian, and you can spot from what part of Romania they're in from just the way they talk or something along them lines?... OK, where were we.

@Abnormal Freak;
- oh, Yoshi's Island is a great game, it's just that I'm too stupid to appreciate it because I can't get over it's lame style of not having a map (them maps as a child filled me with so much imagination and expanded to that world better then anything). Nothing is wrong with the game, it's what's wrong with me.
- and yes, I believe that if Rondo didn't have that much style it wouldn't be as popular or at all. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it's what I believe.
- yes, in your opinion Rondo does have enough style and substance, and maybe for a game it does? But to me, and for it being a Castlevania game, it does not. And it's quite upsetting to me that people see more substance in Rondo then in XX, and hence why we are discussing this right now
- and yes, from the things people brought up to rebuttal me, it always seemed to have been rebuttal that the game does have enough style, when I mostly asked for substance... yet I gave up and decided to tag along discussing about style too. Because I gave up...


@Jorge D. Fuentes;
- first, thanks for correcting my poor English writting skills. I'll try to keep that in mind (just don't get to upset when I forget >_>)....
- second, you seem to also be upset that XX is not a Rondo port? It's something I never fully understand? I love XX for been more it's own game then Rondo port... especially considering they fixed the thing I found most wrong with it.

@BingleGod
- I only read the first and last paragraph... and that's enough for me to see that you don't see my thoughts at all... Whatever, it's all good, as I don't see yours either. .... what the heck, I'll read the rest... oops, it's just as I thought, we don't see eye to eye at all and had to stop reading.... What the heck, I'll read the rest >_>... ah, here we go, you don't like XX, and thus you can't see it's beauty (+ you have the right to not prefer certain gameplay, and/or whatever else too). It's OK, I couldn't stand all Konami Shmups at one point either, especially the Gradius series. But I gave in and pushed myself to keep playing them to see if I can figure it's fame out? Then it hit me big time. This game series, Gradius, is one of the most amazing & well designed games I've ever played in my life. Thank goodness I didn't let my hate bias toward it overcome me looking at it with an open mind as best as I could allow, and instead of not seeing the games genius design, it instead hit me like a transport truck. And now I see the series as vastly under rated & misunderstood, and too bad it's dead :(... luckily I found more Konami goodness in Contra, and now classic Castlevania... which sadly is also misunderstood and now dead too. :(



And looks guys, if I'm doing a poor job at this, and especially upsetting people. I'll stop. I don't want to cause any trouble or hurt anyones feelings. Besides, if I'm doing a bad job explaining myself, what's the point?... and I feel I've said more then enough, anyways... I also thought Richter B's thoughts would of, er, would have ;) shut this debate big time too... the guy spoke English language like and angle, and mannerism to boot too! :o Not to mention the way he described the series, it seemed to me like he really did understand them from a design and balance perspective better then anyone... ... But again, my thoughts on this, so you don't have to agree.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: thernz on May 02, 2012, 11:41:08 AM
i wish dxx was more like cv1
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on May 02, 2012, 02:20:31 PM
It's not "I wish DraculaXX were more like Rondo".  It's "I wish DraculaXX would have been designed better".
Even if I never played Rondo, that won't stop the minor problems around DraculaXX's stage design and mechanics from existing.

And I still love DraculaXX and will play my copy whenever.  I can love a game whilst simultaneously realizing its shortcomings.  It's what separates an objective gamer and a fanboy.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Abnormal Freak on May 02, 2012, 03:11:43 PM
Ansd I still love DraculaXX and will play my copy whenever.  I can love a game whilst simultaneously realizing its shortcomings.  It's what separates an objective gamer and a fanboy.

Pretty much. Kinda baffles me that someone would question how someone could like something if they criticize it.

I myself played DXX long before I got around to Rondo. Even at the time without the original game to compare it to (and being only 13), I thought, "Man, this game could have used some work." It's not perfect, but it IS a heckuva lotta fun. I think it might've been a better game had the designers worked entirely from scratch; there's original content like the wizard boss that's totally awesome.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Esco on May 02, 2012, 03:18:38 PM
Touhouvania (the 2nd game primarily): it's what castlevania should be like nowadays. Except with more stages & maybe 3 playable characters.  8)
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Abnormal Freak on May 02, 2012, 03:25:05 PM
Whatsavania?
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: VladCT on May 02, 2012, 03:42:23 PM
Koumajou Densetsu. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KoumajouDensetsu)
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: thernz on May 02, 2012, 03:45:34 PM
The first one is pretty terrible, but the second is decent. But both kinda have the sort of level design you see in later titles, except those titles had that type of level design because they were exploration-based.

But these games are linear.


So it's weird.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Esco on May 02, 2012, 06:15:13 PM
The first one is pretty terrible, but the second is decent. But both kinda have the sort of level design you see in later titles, except those titles had that type of level design because they were exploration-based.

But these games are linear.


So it's weird.

I'm amazed that ANYONE can call the second title just descent, lol. It has amazing hi-res graphics, the music is great, enemy placement is terrific, and the sounds fit perfect. The various difficulty settings give it descent replay value, it is a high paced game, which at first may make some parts seem unfair. But as you practice more and more, you can actually blow thru even the extra stage without taking a hit (though it WILL take a lot of practice). The voice acting is actually done by a PAID PROFESSIONAL (an extreme rarity in fan games), and although the story is a bit nonsensical, it adds an overall happy mood to the game.

Best of all it's not just challenging... but fun. And the majority of people who have played it agree. I get much more of a rush from this, than I did playing any of the sloooooooooooooow recent castlevania games.

But that's just my opinion; to each his/her own.  8)
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: RichterB on May 02, 2012, 06:47:54 PM
I got my SNES out of storage, got it up and running (wasn't sure if it still worked due to some cracking/yellowing), and played Dracula XX myself for the first time in about 4 or 5 years. As has been said, it has its flaws and quirks, and I know that. (As was noted earlier, though, I never noticed the bat glitch before where you can't hit them when they're perched. Yet, while unfortunate, that doesn't really prove to be much of a problem. The much more dangerous crows thankfully can be hit prior to flight). Also, I was reminded by Jorge that Rondo's level 1 is inspired by CVII and XX is inspired by CVIII. Despite that fact, I've never really felt any particular nostalgia for either, and just judge them on how they come across when I play them (described earlier in thread). Since some were mentioning their first impression of XX, I'll give mine...

I was told to stay away from this game when it first came out, since it wasn't like the SNES' CVIV. I may have had a slight inkling that there was this game called Rondo it was based on (and later saw pics here and elsewhere), but what struck me firsthand were three things: 1.) It wasn't like IV; 2.) It was the most stylish-looking 2D Castlevania I had played, with an attractive color palette and anime-like elements such as item crashes and a non-Barbarian yet still rugged Belmont; 3.) It didn't matter that it wasn't like IV, because it was so completely engrossing and fun, it's music leading the way before the action even starts. (As an aside, as excited as I was to play Rondo based on what was documented on this excellent website and Mr. P's Castlevania Lore, in practice, it just didn't float my boat. For a while, I did think that maybe XX had cheated me by not having a ghost ship, etc--until I played said levels, and found out they just didn't have the same "feel.")

Anyway, I'll post some specific reactions to what I played last night in a second, but I just want to say that overall, this XX game remains a joy. I can respect and casually enjoy what Rondo tries in scope, design, themes, and innovations, even if I've pointed out my perception of its shortcomings, but XX is just a lot more instinctively fun with its focus on classic action-platforming.

Random observations/thoughts from play-through:

*Love the title screen, with the Dracula laugh, the blood-slashed X in the logo, and matching dagger cursor.

*The original stage clear music of XX, ending with the fade out, is pretty heroic and inspiring.

*I've said it before, but the lack of traditional block structures and heavy outlines makes for a more artsy aesthetic.

*The Medusa pillar segment of stage 3 is still a nail-biter, but playing it again, as long as you play strategically, it's really all about execution on the player's part. There's very little cheap about it. I don't know if that should even be a part of future arguments/discussions.

*The designers show some clever mercy in the stage 3 boss battle. Knowing that you have to sacrifice range sub-weapons for the key, they put a meat on the opposite end of the room as long as you manage to maneuver around the boss. It's not truly necessary, but from a perspective that some players may have barely survived the Medusa pillar section, it provides additional game balance depending on the experience of the player.

*You know, about exploiting some enemies in their placements: There's enough volume of enemies in an XX stage that it makes it a strategic advantage to take out a few bone pillars on a floor above by whip-jumping, or taking out a few knights with a kneeling whip. (Kind of like using the back whip ability in Adventure Rebirth). This is especially so when you get into the gauntlet of trying to survive with that key. And sometimes they're designed as rewards. The dungeon stage has one such instance where you come down on a red axe knight from a rising/falling chained platform. First, you have to time the bat approach right. Then, you have multiple options. Face him straight quickly (which is dangerous), or you can jump over him as he charges toward the spike pit at your back. At this point, you can seek cover on higher ground down the passage to whip him (a reward exploit for your quick-thinking), or just turn after the jump to face him straight and repeat until successful.

*I like the arrangement of the crumbling platforms/bridge in the beginning of stage 2, where the starting music builds just as the lighting changes, and then you've got those mermen that kind of force you to realize the usefulness of sub-weapons.

*The stage 2 bat boss. Interesting thing here. It was a minor part of the boss remix in Rondo. Here it gets its own centerpiece fight with new programming. In this one, it harkens back to some of the bat bosses of III and IV, but takes it in a different direction. And not only against spear masters and for platforming shortcuts, but this boss still utilizes the optional/delayed backflip ability well (see battle): Castlevania Dracula X (SNES) Boss 2 Phantom Bat - No Damage, No Sub Weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p225GCQL4Nk#)

*About the screen transitions; I'm usually so absorbed by the action, music, and atmosphere, I don't notice them. I still wasn't really bothered by them, honestly. They are sharp, but it should be noted that in 2D games, there is no guarantee that the transition is truly left to right or vice-versa. In some cases, the character may be moving into the screen or into the background (through a transition corridor, for example) which can't always be conveyed as easily as in 3D. I'm not going to crucify it for this, and it's not the only game that does it, anyway. Especially when some of the stages can be so beautiful in their flow or elements. The dungeon, which is underground, has a vertical section with gears and pulleys, presumably used to help mine/carve the cave at some point. Those linked buckets can carry you up (much like the praised water buckets of Rondo's stage 1, but much more integrated into the central gameplay with obstacle/enemy placement and platforming).

The gorgeous, rewarding Sunken City stage appears as a surprise after this dingy cave-dungeon-mine. The stage (5') has you traveling deeper into the sunken city's bowels, where you can see what appears to be algae staining and the like on the pillars; then you enter a temple that starts to collapse into the water from your weight, before climbing up until you reach a series of raised aqueducts. But even disregarding this, or interpreting it another way, that's what I absolutely love about 2D games and early 3D games. They're largely direct, hand's off, and you can insert your imagination into the narrative of the stage flow/art as you traverse it visually and aurally. To that point, the Sunken City remixes and embellishes Rondo's ghost ship theme so that it truly brings out the fanciful woodwind and marimba-like percussion sounds of trickling/cascading water. (It's more than just cut-and-paste). Its tempo is slightly upped (roughly a 5 second difference between them to get to the first solo), heightening the journey to escape this enchanting but dangerously unstable area. When I mention embellishments, while many are subtle, the most significant here is the staccato notes that close off the aforementioned woodwind solo in Dracula X, which doesn't exist in the Rondo version, and really adds to the song's new usage in XX, flowing right back into the opening like undulating water (SEE 1:15-1:17). Castlevania Dracula X OST Picture of the Ghost Ship (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvD3mNhyRwE#)

Well, that's all I've got. You know what I take issue with? Why wasn't XX a part of the Dracula X Chronicles? :P

PS: Those professional-ish fan-games, or whatever they are, seem much too flat and unimaginative in level design, IMO.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: BingleGod on May 02, 2012, 08:35:17 PM
Quote from: RichterB
*I've said it before, but the lack of traditional block structures and heavy outlines makes for a more artsy aesthetic.

This doesn't actually mean anything, descriptively speaking.

Quote
*About the screen transitions; I'm usually so absorbed by the action, music, and atmosphere, I don't notice them. I still wasn't really bothered by them, honestly. They are sharp, but it should be noted that in 2D games, there is no guarantee that the transition is truly left to right or vice-versa.

Conveyed dimension isn't the only factor in critiques of the transitions, though. Look at that map from stage 3 that I posted (or others) and note how formally inexplicable the room-to-room switches are. It's weird that you'd say that you're too absorbed by "atmosphere" to notice this sloppiness when one of the primary contributors to the atmosphere in these games is the background art and thematic progression. At this point, to be honest, much of your reading of the game sounds like willful ignorance, where you are so caught up in a kind of hyper-subjectivity that analysis becomes a matter of personal imaginative logic (this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I don't think it has much utility in critical dialogue). I can only give videogames a break up to a certain point in their internal rationale, so turning these points into a matter of mental eye-squinting & head-tilting doesn't do a lot to convince me.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: RichterB on May 02, 2012, 10:26:45 PM
BingleGod, I find the individual motif's attractive and absorbing in ambiance (and the lack of traditional brick patterns adds to that a bit)--giving me a lot in a short amount of space. As we all know from Curse of Darkness, we don't want to be traveling an unabridged Dracula's Castle, which causes the eyes to glaze over even if it remains all but entirely consistent from room to room. On that note, XX Stage 3: You start on an outside wall; enter through a window or some such passage, then travel downward into a sewer, creep back upstairs into a formal hall, enter one of Dracula's weirdo rooms and/or perhaps a ruined section (like, say, Rondo's giant candle room), and then enter some sort of observation room and/or courtyard from that corridor. Castles have a lot of different rooms in short order, especially Dracula's castle in Castlevania lore. (Rondo's stage 2 goes from blue to red [brick] in one screen, and then to white with pillars within a few more screens, and I don't take issue with that). Moreover, that logic is no more kooky than Rondo's own stage 3: Going from an upstairs chapel supported by odd pillars into a cavern of giant candles, which you're heading and exit right to left, and you return left to right in a room of wood and brick that ends in a giant Greek statue in a place that started as a Christian symbol-filled chapel. That's a bit of a clever mosaic in of itself, I'd think.

Sometimes, there doesn't seem to be constructive critical dialogue back equal to the semi-condescending tone I seem to be getting here. Honestly, my attempts at critical dialogue, where I talked some stage-by-stage material in Rondo were largely brushed over. Granted, on the legitimate counter for Stage 1, it was noted that A.) the XX rooftops convert back to ground level (but that's no big jump of logic in a town on fire, IMO, or given some of the transitions of other CVs, including some I've mentioned) and B.) that both Rondo and XX's first stages are built on nostalgia for different games, which, while interesting, I didn't find significant. But it didn't address some of the fundamental points, like about establishing a core design before the curve ball.

But I am not interested in a prolonged "Vs," where we get people saying "you don't know anything." I merely came to speak my piece from my experience and observations so that everything wouldn't be so historically one-sided, which I have done. And as I basically said before, it's not about convincing, because that's impossible on the internet. I don't want people to say Rondo or XX is "the best." I just want to bring up the possibility that Rondo may be overrated, XX may be underrated, neither are perfect, and both are interesting entries that provide different strokes for different folks. (And as such, you can make a legitimate decision as to which you enjoy without being called out as an uneducated goof). Regardless, the best I can hope for is a fair read here, and that's it.

Really, I'm far more concerned about Castlevania making a "true comeback" as a franchise all its own. But that's a waiting game where only playing will bring believing.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 03, 2012, 02:24:28 AM
Hey, Richter B, I just noticed my popularity jumped to a knew high just now. From +2 to negative 11. So I don't have to envy you anymore. :D

But wow, what was I thinking trying to convince Rondo fans that XX has done something better it? There no way I'd ever win a discussion going against the biggest talked about Castlevania games out there, Rondo & SotN. And your were right, you can't be popular liking XX. :D (should change it to my fav game)

It's too bad really... and it's sad too. Rondo was the first step Castlevania took towards series grave, and SotN closed the casket to the series permanently. Ever since gaming started getting too complicated for it's own good & along with prettier graphics (ie. way more money and time is being spent on game graphics then gameplay these days), people also started not to care about gaming design & balance anymore either. And games presenting any kind of challenge went out the window too. Again, SotN proves this (as well as the mad decline/death of shmups, on top of other examples), as people are more then happy enough with just style over substance + no challenge gaming (I know, I've been there and done that). And it's thanks to the majority of today's gamers and gaming journalists that we're in such a slump. Most gamers don't know better, and journalists only add to the confusion with them themselves not knowing either.ie. "Oh yes, Rondo & SotN are top of their class and set the standard for other Castlevanias to try and match." :rollseyes: So yeah, whatever. I tried to explain to you guys some basics about gaming design and balance, or at least get you guys to go at it figuring it out for yourselves, but you guys just don't want to understand it like it makes the games you cherish so dear look bad or something. I mean, I'm baffled that no one understood when I said that if you add too many variables into an experiment, the harder it becomes to keep track of everything. This is all very basic stuff you learn in High School or possibly even earlier? So how come you guys can't add this same logic to videogames too? (ie. add all them superpowers to Alucard, and look at what a mess we have) And I can't get any more basic then this...  Richter B is as smart as I though, because what the heck am I doing trying to convince internet for? It's mission impossible.



So anyways, Richter B, I loved what you wrote for your XX playthrough. Made me go back and to make sure I get to that underground shrine type level. Failed twice, lol... the first time I just beat the game anyways. But the second time I failed (because I tried to time and hit them bone guys and skeletons above me through the wall as you did, but couldn't get the timing right) I restarted and finally succeeded (by just going through the level as normal). And when I got to that level, I finally made it to the boss this time... only to give up on him, lol. Besides, I already beat the game... About this level, it not only looks really good + reminds me of Castlevania 3 in that section before the boss, but man, is this level ever really well designed. It was also nice to see them fish men guys being used very well for once in a Castlevania game too.


Well, time to go talk about some other stuff related to Castlevania or not...
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: VladCT on May 03, 2012, 02:55:53 AM
Honestly, I think the reason why your rep took a big hit is because a lot of your posts come off as rude and obnoxious while having a tinge of arrogance.
To put it bluntly, it's not that they hate DXX with a burning passion, it's just that you're annoying.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: The Silverlord on May 03, 2012, 03:39:40 AM
I think that prison/cave level (stage 4) always stood out for me in Dracula X.
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/Castlevania-DraculaX-Stage4.png (http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/Castlevania-DraculaX-Stage4.png)

It appears to be very good graphically in terms of its large detailed tile sets; a well-hewn rocky floor and stalactite-festooned ceiling framing a background of some prison cells.  Are we down in Dracula’s larder?  First impressions are: this is quite good.  You can quibble that it’s too bright for a cave (and has an entirely different feel to the likes of the Castlevania IV caves), and that the place should look more bleak in general.  But taken on its own merits—and the game’s comic-book, anime-like presentation—it’s quite interesting.  If you’re going to rescue Marie or Annette then this is the place, surely?

However, as you continue, it reveals itself to have one of the worst map designs in terms of flow and progression, and it practically shatters any immersion in the level itself.  Now, platform and enemy-wise it’s not too shabby at all.  Skeletons are in the right place, lobbing bones down at you.  A red knight causes consternation as you jump down to a lower platform, bats and fleamen infuriate, and vigilance is required as ghosts materialise throughout the tricky vertical section.  Level design in terms of platforms and enemies is good, and let’s be fair and honest there, there’s a good bit of challenge.  No problem.

But look at the overall sense of flow and progression in the stage.

At the start, you’ll go up stairs and just simply appear in the next section.  Where’d that staircase go?  When you arrive in the next section, there’s a wall appeared behind you.  It happens again later, and then again at the final boss you’ll simply begin in the minotaur’s arena.  The level is not seamless in its transition, it does not connect former locale to next, and you wonder what’s coming next.  You begin to focus on the programming elements more, why they did that, you look more at the walls themselves (in disbelief), the backgrounds and colours of level.  Instead of focussing on Richter’s plight, you find yourself looking beyond at the game itself.  And hence, those beautifully elaborate tile sets become almost redundant because I'm questioning the layout of level.

Now, that may sound like bollocks.  Maybe it’s just me.  But had Richter been ‘auto-walked’ into the new sections, or seen climbing those stairs into the next area, I don’t think there would have been so much of an issue.  It’s not to say the other design elements of the stage are poor, they’re actually good, but overall the level suffers for the lack of transitions.  It’s a small thing but has such as effect on player immersion.

DraculaXX has the challenge, no question, it even has feel/style, but it just doesn’t feel like a well-rounded product.  It's the small things.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Puwexil on May 03, 2012, 04:03:45 AM
Sinful, the pervading issue here isn't really an uncompromisable "us vs. them" scenario, which you seem to have convinced yourself is what's taking place. There might be fundamental differences in thinking and opinion between the people here about the subject, but putting on airs of condescending superiority and eye-rolling dismissal at every turn isn't really making a case for people to take what you say seriously, and it puts a damper on even considering continuing any kind of constructive dialogue with you. Talking about video games doesn't have to be such a scathingly personal experience.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: The Silverlord on May 03, 2012, 04:17:23 AM
people are more then happy enough with just style over substance + no challenge gaming

Get yourself an Xbox360 and download Trials Evolution, or play Geometry Wars 2.  Simple and brilliant challenging gaming for the modern age.  I thought I was good at games until I tried Trials.

Also, go play the likes of PC-Engine Salamander or SNES Parodius and try and re-evaluate the style over substance stance a little.  Soften up!  These two flow with pure Konami perfection.  All things need not be Gradius IV loop 3 level of hardness! :)
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: VladCT on May 03, 2012, 04:19:17 AM
Get yourself an Xbox360 and download Trials Evolution, or play Geometry Wars 2.  Simple and brilliant challenging gaming for the modern age.  I thought I was good at games until I tried Trials.
Don't forget Dark Souls if you want an example of extreme difficulty without actually being unfair.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on May 03, 2012, 07:12:55 AM
As The Silverlord said (and quite beautifully, too), it's the little things.
Had there been an open wall instead of a closed wall.
Had there been some kind of stair indicator or door in the background.
Etc. etc.

I love DraculaXX but I cannot help but feel that at times it feels like it needs polish.
For the record, one of the things I love about the game are its backgrounds and color sets.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sumac on May 03, 2012, 08:58:06 AM
As far as I can say (since it was quite a time since I played ROB and CVDX) I liked CVDX level design more than in ROB. It was more interesting and challenging.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on May 03, 2012, 09:48:57 AM
I think I can agree with that to some respect.
I'm also more fond of the DraculaXX Clocktower.  Interestingly enough, the Clocktower seems to be opposite the castle, much like in Castlevania III (even though that game has two clocktowers).

I think in general the game has lots of stuff taken from CVIII.  It's quirky in that way.
The stage where you fight the werewolf (Stage 5), at its beginning, has the same layout as Castlevania III's Block 9, complete with the hunchbacks and tower.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 03, 2012, 03:57:08 PM
i wish dxx was more like cv1

It is. Where do you think XX got that idea to activate that bat from a jump only? Remember that? You complained about it in XX... There also seems to be quite a few scenes lifted from Castlevania 1 in XX too. Add that the controls are pretty much C1 too outside of some control in your jumps,  item crush and backflip move. And it's a wonder as to why you would ask such a question? The only reason I could think of is that you would want XX to be harder, or cheaper as so many put it, as to match Castlevania 1 more? But this doesn't make sense either? :-\




But anywho, I just played through Castlevania Rebirth on Hard, and also noticed something else in the options for "Original" and "Normal." Well, I quickly figured this one out, and man, am I glad this option was thought of. What this option does is give you control of jumps (Normal) or not just like the NES Castlevania game (Original). So this should please fans of both jump types... in regards to my playthrough on hard? Well, I got owned big time. I didn't even reach the level one boss. >_>:: (Richter B hears this, he'll hang his head in shame at me)


I'm also glad Rebirth kept things very simple control wise. Maybe this is why they nailed the design and difficulty balance so well for this Rebirth game in comparison to the others? I mean, Contra's controls are much more complex with an insane amount of firepower aimable in every direction. For this type of game getting the design and balance right is much harder. So it's no surprise to me that they didn't quite nail the Contra series feel with that Rebirth game.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: thernz on May 03, 2012, 04:34:24 PM
But they don't.
Castlevania: Stage 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LvfHnD9IjI#)
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Flame on May 03, 2012, 05:27:43 PM
Quote
It is. Where do you think XX got that idea to activate that bat from a jump only? Remember that?
You're kidding right?
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 04, 2012, 01:03:09 AM
You're kidding right?

But I'm not. I played Castlevania yesterday (which is a very rare occurrence... still trying to warm up to this one), and I came across a bat (that's right, one bat. Just like how in XX not all bats activate by jumps) that would not activate even though I was practically underneath him and almost touching him. Then I remembered a post here in regards to this happening in XX. So I backed away a tad, turned around, jumped, watched him activate, and whipped him (just like I easily did the same to that one bat in XX)... So I don't know what to say about that, other the fact that I was right in assuming that some of you guys are only going out of your ways to find faults in XX, yet blind to the fact that other Castlevania games that do the same thing (this is not very wrong to assume. It happens all the time in every category of life). I mean come on, people say XX is cheap, then what are the NES Castlevania games? To me these are much harder games, thus I assume cheaper too? (I really don't fully get what you guys find cheap about XX that I've not seen in other Castlevania game. So you guys want to take offense, whatever, be my guests)

Well, it shouldn't be too hard to spot this bat, since I never made it past Frankenstein (only made it to him twice... shows how much I played this game... yup. Twice... it's too hard, er, I mean cheap... not enough style for my taste either... but I'm sure to warm up to it sooner or later? After all, it's a Castlevania game in the same vein as XX & all others I love, so why not?)
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 04, 2012, 03:36:27 AM
Yes!! I did it!!! I beat Frankenstein in Castlevania 1!!

Took me a few tries to get there with triple holy water, but when I finally did, I died ???... but then I tried again, and succeeded! ;)

The part I died the most at was the underground section. Because I was being a perfectionist here and wanted to make sure I got at least all the big heart candles & take no damage (so something went wrong and I committed suicide). But man, there seems to be so many tinny random parts happening in NES Castlevania that really help keep you on your toes and never a dull day (such a simple game, yet still so deep. Got to love it) + in combination with my mind drifting off after a couple of failures in a row every now and then, and there you go. I was stuck there for awhile.

But thinking about my last bout with Frankenstein yesterday, I really couldn't see why I wouldn't have been able to muscle my way through with a full health bar? But good luck with that with them two Dragon Bones before the boss... actually I hadn't even bothered to see how easy it would of been to develop a pattern for them Dragon Bones and Frankenstein + his little buddy... but I never ever tried the triple holy water trick on any boss before, and after reading about it so much, I just had to try it myself. Guess I'll try passing Frankenstein without the holy water next?...



And has anybody found that jump activated bat yet? Here's a clue, it's in level 2 and it's pretty obvious/can't be missed. In fact, you have to jump to proceed to get any further too.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: The Silverlord on May 04, 2012, 04:07:24 AM
Good job Sinful.  Frankenstein's monster and Igor are tough to beat!  I always tend to end up with the dagger, but it's a good skirmish.  Igor is a devil.

And Castlevania 1 is tough.  Hardest parts I always thought were top of Stage 3 (sub-stage 9) with those damnable crows and bone pillars hurling fire at you, followed by a tricky Mummy fight where I always end up whipping furiously like a madman to just get them before they get you.  No tactics, just balls-to-the-wall button tapping.

Stage 6 (sub-stage 17) clock tower with the fleamen is also a nightmare.  That's just: get out . . . get out of there as quickly as possible!
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 04, 2012, 04:36:38 AM
Thanks for the compliment and advice for stage 6, The Silverlord.

And yeah, that's exactly how I handle the Mummy fight too, lol.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Puwexil on May 04, 2012, 05:18:23 AM
And has anybody found that jump activated bat yet? Here's a clue, it's in level 2 and it's pretty obvious/can't be missed. In fact, you have to jump to proceed to get any further too.

You're talking about the one after the crushing spike traps, right? Here's the thing, though: it's not activated by the player jumping. It's proximity-based just like all the other ceiling-mounted bats in the game. The only reason why it seems like it's an exception to the rule is because it's located significantly higher up in relation to Simon's position, in comparison to the other bats. Thus, simply approaching it by walking is not enough to catch its attention because you're not in its line of sight.

The whole bit is essentially a trap to lure players into colliding with the bat, considering you have to jump over the blocks on the floor to proceed. If you do that close to the bat, it will notice and crash into you. However, should you try jumping farther away, with the bat still visible on the screen, it doesn't move a muscle. You can then approach carefully and test out the limits of its range of observation, and deal with it from a comfortable distance. Its programming is still identical to the other bats in the game, but its placement creates a new kind of obstacle to overcome.

The bat(s) in Dracula X sound like they're (unintentionally?) programmed to be invincible while idle, which combined with legitimate activation-by-jumping is a pretty grave flaw in both the mechanical design and the credibility of the setting. Unless they're literal Phantom Bats, oops.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 04, 2012, 07:49:48 AM
Puwexil, i can't believe you went there...

First, what makes you think the same does not apply to the XX version? That your simply not in it's programed line of sight. And that in fact it's not the jump activating the bat, but you entering it's programed line of sight. Why can't you see this? I'll tell you why, because your biased. And it's OK, I'm bias too many times, we all are and it can't be helped. But please, for this topic, put a bit more effort to suppress that bias.

If you suppress that bias, you might see that the reason the bats in XX were made invincible is due to balance. And you need not look past the first level to see this in action. The first level section gives you access to an axe. The second section is a vertical section with bats and skeletons. The skeletons can be taken out with the axe no problem (still have to watch out for them thrown bones), and the bats too if they weren't invincible. And if that was the case, you guys would be all jumping in shouting "Foul! Bad design, bad design!"

If you look at Castlevania III in level 1 the same situation exists. Except that they don't give you the axe. Design still good.

Now back to Castlevania 1's bat. What does it matter how it's technically activated because chances are that you'd still have to jump to trigger it. Why? Because only one sub weapon can reach it while it's inactive, the axe. And that axe is not available up to this point in this level from what I remember? So the only way to have an axe at this point is if a) you didn't lose it from level 1 and die up to that point, or b) you get it by chance from an enemy. Now if your new to this game, I'm willing to bet more often then not you don't have the axe. And it your not, your skilled enough to handle it regardless.

Now to go back to XX again. In XX where these bats that need jumping to get activated, in level 4 (http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/Castlevania-DraculaX-Stage4'.png) (think VGMaps has it incorrectly as 4', but I could be wrong?). If you look carefully at that section you will see that jumping is a big mechanic of this section. Jump on the platfrom and stay too long and you'll drop to a lower section and be forced to backtrack though mud with mud zombies & bats (not very nice. But it's not instant death and a full recovery can still be made and it's well designed lower section too). Now to avoid the first bat, you can still make use of solid ground too if you want to be more cautious (not to mention falling in lands you near very near to get back to where you were). But for the last bat, just after the staircase going up to the next level, you don't have this solid ground luxury, and you'd have to backtrack the most if you fall. This is not cheap (they also place a meat there) and the difficulty if very reasonable (no instant deaths, etc.), thus this is very well designed and planned gameplay. This is good design & difficulty balance. If the bats were hitable during inactivity, this great design would of lost quiet a bit of impact. Just like Richter B told me to play Castlevania Rebirth on Hard to really appreciate it's design.


In the end, XX should appeal much more to fans of classic Castlevania fans, then say Rondo which should appeal more to Castleroid fans (I think, as the gameplay style of enemies is closer). XX has very much in common with the NES games. In XX I see several gameplay ideas lifted from the NES games almost exactly. So for me to hear someone say they wish XX was more like Castlevania 1 is pretty baffling. The only thing I can think of XX having that the NES games have outside of more forgiving difficulty is the multipliers. Which greatly aid with some excellently overpowered weaponry to make some real though spots a real breeze... I too sometimes debate if leaving these out of game like Bloodlines and XX was a good move? Balance wise it was a good move for Bloodlines at least (I think?), plus they were replaced somewhat. ie. In Bloodlines you get an extra whip power-up that lasts until you get hit + can carry hearts into the next level. In XX/Rondo, you get the crush moves + can carry hearts into next level... To me just being able to carry hearts into the next level is good enough incentive to not die + I feel more powered up, just like I did with the multipliers. They both work well, and they both give you the feeling of becoming more powerful, so and I'm not sure which I prefer more yet? But it's much more of a pain to die with a x3 then just losing your hearts for me. And when your new to a Castlevania game, like me, you'll always be dieing. So playing these games for me this early on, it's sometimes just best for me to forget about the multipliers until I'm more familiar with the levels. So for this I guess I could say prefer the hearts carryover more for now...
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Puwexil on May 04, 2012, 09:00:34 AM
First, what makes you think the same does not apply to the XX version? That your simply not in it's programed line of sight. And that in fact it's not the jump activating the bat, but you entering it's programed line of sight. Why can't you see this?

Because there's just no way you're not in its line of sight in Dracula X. Refer to Thernz's post (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,4845.msg101252.html#msg101252) if you don't remember. Richter and the bat are horizontally level as well as physically close to each other, and considering how the bats behave in these games, it should react. In Castlevania, the bat is suspended high above and doesn't care about Simon if he scurries along the surface of the floor. Only when he jumps and puts himself on a similar horizontal plane to the bat does it notice him. It's again about the presence of logic in the world design and enemy behaviour that other good Castlevanias display, and Dracula X sorely lacks.

The skeletons can be taken out with the axe no problem (still have to watch out for them thrown bones), and the bats too if they weren't invincible. And if that was the case, you guys would be all jumping in shouting "Foul! Bad design, bad design!"

Actually, that would be preferable, because then they wouldn't take a blow at immersion right in the second screen of the game. I see no reason to fault a game for providing the player with the optional tools to overcome and potentially subvert problematic level design, either. Dracula X's problems in mechanical terms stem from the kind of design that's transparently difficult, emphasizing attrition more than genuinely clever design, anyway, so anything that helps in that regard and breaks the monotony is welcome.

Now back to Castlevania 1's bat. What does it matter how it's technically activated because chances are that you'd still have to jump to trigger it.

It matters because by the time the player reaches this particular bat, he's faced two others already. They're met on even, horizontal planes, and attack as the player draws near. This is how the game teaches the player about bat behaviour, by first introducing an enemy, and then reaffirming the formula with a second one. By the time the third one -- the subject of the debate here -- is met, the player has a feel for how the bats operate in the game. A set of rules have been established for the player to put to practical use in contending with the enemies.

The third bat, then, does not instantly rush the player. By trusting the game's design to be consistent and to follow its own rules, one can surmise that this is not because of a flaw in the programming, but because something about this bat is different, somehow, most likely affected by its surroundings and placement in the stage. The player may arrive at the conclusion consciously or subconsciously, but all signs point out to the reason being its high altitude in relation to Simon. This, of course, leads to the application of previously-amassed Bat Knowledge ("they swoop down when they see me coming from the side") in solving the little trap, by luring the bat to abandon its lofty porch from a position where the player can either counter or evade it, i.e. not directly under it, where the blocks lie. It's all consistent with the game's inner logic, and rewards observation and careful play, a dead fit for a game like Castlevania that's so deliberately and restrainedly paced.

Dracula X breaks its own rules by having a bat be suddenly immune to all other disturbances other than jumping. It doesn't make sense in relation to the rest of the game and offers no way for the player to prepare for the unpleasant surprise. Invincible bats is a ridiculous feature to begin with, but this pushes it into plain faulty, schizophrenic design.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sumac on May 04, 2012, 09:33:04 AM
Quote
And Castlevania 1 is tough.  Hardest parts I always thought were top of Stage 3 (sub-stage 9) with those damnable crows and bone pillars hurling fire at you, followed by a tricky Mummy fight where I always end up whipping furiously like a madman to just get them before they get you.  No tactics, just balls-to-the-wall button tapping.
Stage 3 is quite easy, comparing to the next level. Mummy fight is very easy, if you use boumerangs.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 04, 2012, 10:38:13 AM
@Puwexil

Hook, line, and sinker. You bite, and I can't believe you did. After all that I said about the game's clever design, on top of going into good depth about the design around the bats, none of it mattered you at all. You can't see one ounce of good in XX. You 100% hate XX.

I already figured it out that the bat is triggered by horizontal and vertical length in XX as in the other Castlevania games, and not by jumps as you say. I just wanted to see what you'd say next in regards to how much you hate XX?

The evidence in this is the very first stage again. Walk up the stairs to see that the bats get activated roughly around the same vertical stair walking distance (not jumping) as the bats you see in level 4' (and VGMaps was right, it is 4'). Only since the hero is walking up the stairs, it's not right to assume that the height of the hitbox is on the same spot of the sprite as the walking Belmont. So since the bats in level 4' get activated at roughly the same vertical height as in level 1, they must be a just hair higher of the hero's standing position hitbox in level 4'. I mean, why would the programmers create new code for just this when they can raise the bat a hair higher to achieve the same affect? So you see, jumps never trigger the bats, it's you getting in their line of sight.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Puwexil on May 04, 2012, 11:26:14 AM
You can't see one ounce of good in XX. You 100% hate XX.

I like Akihiro Yamada's art for it. But I mean, of course I "hate" it, as much I can a piece of entertainment. Practically all I talk about regarding the game is how it comes up short in any one area of its design. I don't even have to go especially looking for points of criticism about it, when they're so central to the end product. With that general disposition, you'd think it was pretty easy to deduce my overall feelings on it. This thread is just a venue for articulating why I find it bad and promoting more discussion about it.

I played around a bit with that bat in stage 4'. I can't comprehend which part of it stands out as good, considered design, and I don't believe it works by proximity as the other bats in the game do. They react to Richter when he's situated around the same altitude as with this bat, but this one does nothing, even if you walk right up to it so it's practically rubbing pixels with Richter's head. It's just not programmed to respond, which betrays what the game has taught you previously. You can even try jumping when the bat is off-screen, and that kicks it into action right away. I wouldn't really consider that being in its line of sight when such a thing does not even exist in the moment.

I also caught one other quirk I'd forgotten, where Richter's horizontal momentum during a jump vanishes if he ends up above the top of the screen, which is unavoidable in some sections. Platforming-related ones, at that. Not cool.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 04, 2012, 12:50:28 PM
You have to explain that last point to me again. How about an example in the game too?


And in regards to the bat thing. The bat does not get triggered by horizontal or vertical alone, as both points have to be past a certain point to trigger it. This is why you can't trigger the bat in both Castlevania games (1 & XX) because you are still too low below it. Just like it won't trigger if you are at the right height but not close enough on the horizontal plane. But if both requirements of vertical and horizontal are meet, the bat will fly at you. Thus in conclusion from a programing point of view, it's not the jump that trigger it, it's meeting both those requirements.

So from a game programing standpoint, both games work exactly the same so to speak... But again, why are we talking about this again and for so long. In the end it still comes down to, I found a bat that you have to jump to trigger in Castlevania 1 just like the one that was complained about in XX. Then instead of giving me credit for this discovery, or sorry for being wrong, or something, we change the subject as a sort of middle finger of "nah, nah, you still don't win, XX still sucks. I can't except nothing else" jibberish.

I read some of your posts in the old topic of is "XX worth it" or something that you pointed out to me. Got to page 2 or 3? (Will read the rest later) And wow, there isn't much doubt in my mind now + now that you mentions, zero doubt. You don't like XX at all. ... So is it wrong of me to kindly ask you not to participate in this topic anymore? I mean, isn't what your doing trolling?

...  yeah, and you don't have to explain that last thing anymore if you don't want to. I'm sure I'll figure it out. Bye.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Puwexil on May 04, 2012, 01:13:50 PM
You have to explain that last point to me again. How about an example in the game too?

If you're on an elevation close to the top of the screen, and make a jump forward that at that height propels Richter outside of view -- into the void above the screen -- his forward momentum simply stops as he enters the unseen. Sensible design ought to dictate that he continue his arc, but he'll just fall like a rock straight down once he reappears. It's notable in the part of stage 3 (http://vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/Castlevania-DraculaX-Stage3.png) right after the rafts; if you calculate the trajectory of the jump in your mind and leap before the very edge of the platform, you could potentially be cheated into an unpredictable death at the hands of this odd feature, due to the actual distance traveled being cut short. Even outside of dramatic results like that, it feels very strange and cumbersome when it does turn up.

I don't think placing something in a negative light constitutes trolling in any way. Aren't differing viewpoints the root of meaningful conversation? I continue to participate in this discussion because it interests me and hopefully I can put forth arguments other people might find in turn interesting to read or respond to. Isn't it the same for you, and everyone else? Asking someone to outright leave just because you don't agree with them, however cordially, is not very becoming.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Sinful on May 05, 2012, 04:09:45 AM
No, your right, everyone else is entitled to their opinion. But this has to do with what I already talked about before (too much bias clouding proper judgment). You've already made your mind about XX completely. To me you're like a brick wall. No matter what I say to the brick wall. The brick wall will not change. So in other words, in a more Castlevania like example, you've chosen to be as blind as a bat, is what I see here (yes, I could still be wrong, yada, yada). So to me, not matter what I say to you, it won't matter as it won't change your perspective on XX at all. So I'm just wasting my time on you. Your wasting my time, and as well as everyone else time (well, not Rondo fans, they're cheering you on, no doubt). To me it's like your only here to but down XX at all costs, even at changing the subject matter. I mean look at the bat argument. I made a very good point that proved that thernz was blind to only finding faults about XX, and thus not noticing that the same faults his finding about XX exist in other Castlevania games. Namely Castlevania 1, the one he so said he wanted XX to be more like, ironically, when it is in fact the most like Castlevania 1, as well as other classic Castlevania games. Rondo is surprisingly the only classic mainstream game to be the least like classic Castlevania game, in fact. As it's crossing more into Castleroid territory (oh, and what do you know, your fav Castlevania game happens to be SotN. Why am I not surprised? :)). So to me, anyone who wishes Castlevania to be more like classic Castlevania games, and has wrongfully accused and writting of XX as garbage, is a hypocrite. Because they are in turn making fun of classic Castlevania too now. (But is your fav Castlevania game is SotN and it's like, your just supporting your own kind. Weak game design and no challenge. Hip, hip, hooray!)

Let me explain my last point about classic vania fans making fun of their own kind due to blind hatred better. Let's looks at that thernz post with pics again;

At the very least, Rondo's AI isn't undermined by the level design. Whereas in Dracula XX, there's an instance where you can exploit the red axe armor just by normal gameplay,

(http://i.imgur.com/Ups5f.png)

Because of the way the armor was coded, he will never hurl axes at you in this range. Because of the wall, he'll never reach you. He'll just keep on wailing his axe while you idle about.

Dracula XX also has this strange design choice. You can't kill bats until they're in flight. That means you can't take out bats while they're hanging. They're invincible. I'm not sure how anyone could justify that. It's completely dissonant from the rest of the game. Why can't you hit an enemy until they're in a certain state when you're in range and all that jazz?

(http://i.imgur.com/0RaSi.png)

That particular bat doesn't even activate by the player's distance. It gets triggered by the player jumping, which is pretty cheap in Castlevania considering the amount of commitment a player has when they jump. That combined with the illogicality of not being able to attack the bat just screams bad and cheap design to me.

Gotta also adore the random pillars in the cavern. Just there. Not supporting anything. Not serving any use as a pillar. Just there, because hey, let's put pillars.

Look at the first pic with the red armour guy. You think I can't find another exact, if not very similar, situation in other classic Castlevania games, and especially Rondo too? I think I can, just like I found that bat that needed to be activated by a jump, (which I just ran into by chance, lol).

Now let's look at that invincible above the screen wall thing that you said so cheaply killed you. I'll rebuttal this with a very similar Rondo problem. The painting. That painting the very first time I played, and i guarantee this happens to most first timers, very cheaply robbed me of my life the very first time without warning. How was I supposed to know that I at full health could be brought down just like that? And me who's no total stranger to Castlevania games at that too, as I've never seen anything like that in Castlevania before. Normally when I face a new enemy, I expect to take at least a few hits before I get a feel for it's pattern to stand a better chance. Because yes, Castlevania games are in most part about trial and error. Play a bit, die, learn from it, advance further. If this is too cheap for you, these games are not for you. Leave them to us who do enjoy them. As I'll let you enjoy your Castleroid games which I find very hard to stomach due to very poor balance and game design.

Now let's stay back with this jump thing you said. I don't recall this thing ever taking my life? I mean, maybe it's because I know that if I hit a wall above me while making a horizontal leap, I'd know from past Castlevania games or other games in general that that might not work? So maybe knowing this, I subconsciously applied the off screen to act the same as a wall above me. And if not, and I died from my wrong judgment. Oh well, toss it to trial and error, just like all other thing gaming or Castlevania related. I'm not gonna cry about, or cry about it much, and either take a beak to cool of if needed until ready again (which I do very often mind you, then come back fresh minded), or press on if I'm still in the mood or very much so in the mood.

What else was I gonna say?... Oh yes, I recall reading from the other similar topic to this were you bashed XX, that you said something along the lines of "Placing Medusa heads everywhere isn't genius design, as anybody can think of adding them anywhere and make it seem like genius design. As Medusa heads makes the game either way hard. So the designers just added them in because they couldn't think of anything better." Or to that sort. Well what, you think I can't come up with a similar rebuttal about any other Castlevania games, or especially Rondo, the game in question? I think I can. In fact, I already talked about it, so I might as well repeat it. Them Armour Lords as the very last line of defense in Rondo before the last two bosses. They to be can be viewed as the exact same thing. The designers where out of any good ideas as to what to do with the awesome looking level they've created, as they've burned themselves out with that overly genius bridge idea at the start of the level big time. That's why the game after that is so ho hum, and climaxing in boredom/bad game design with a ton of Sword Armour things back to back to fight one on one endlessly with no rhyme or reason or even good placement (the last one is placed the poorest as to remove almost all dodging required). For no other reason then maybe that they look badass enough to be the last line of defense? (Yay, style is the name of this game folks) Add a ton of health too, to elude the players that they are indeed formidable, and voila. Stupid design at it's best... While at least I can see the Medusa heads in XX as placed pretty strategically, I can't say the same with the Sword guys who do nothing more to me then waste my time with their numbers and absurd amount of health. I mean, what's so darn genius about attacking and dodging in the exact same manner on a flat playing field a thousand times over and over?

And if you want to talk about Medusa heads, they were put to much better use in XX too if you ask me. Start of level 3 in XX sticks in my mind at the moment. And in XX as far as I can recall they're placed strategically and none cheaply too. Versus Rondo's where at least in one case (level 5' Hidden Docks) they can knock you to your death..., not to mention in this area there are multiple jumps where you have to be at just about the very edge of a platform or plunge to your death (Another complaint that was mentioned about XX, but in XX you don't have to be at the very edge with plenty more room to make jumps, and no death penalty either).

You know, now that I think of it? Rondo difficulty relies way more on cheap tactics the first time through, but once overcome, the game provides almost zero challenge afterwards. Unlike XX, which provides not as cheap but well designed & tested challenge. As after learning the game enough, it still provide a nice challenge due to well design... I think I've just open and shut this case with this last paragraph. Thank you, you have been a great audience. Don't forget to vote on you way out. And always remember to have a good laugh. ;) (As the world, and internet especially, is just too silly to take seriously).
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Flame on May 05, 2012, 10:29:00 AM
I honestly never died to the painting. When it became apparent that it was the miniboss and it would attack me, I never let it touch me.

Only once did it get me, and just because I wanted to see what would happen if it caught me.
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: thernz on May 05, 2012, 01:42:52 PM
no pls find bat you can walk directly under, but does not care because you are not a jumping stallion
Title: Re: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.
Post by: Puwexil on May 05, 2012, 02:55:07 PM
Sinful, it's honestly depressing to see you try and recklessly generalize people into convenient little labels based purely on circumstantial logic. I haven't even mentioned Symphony in this thread, but somehow a completely irrelevant thing like my being fond of it discredits the opinions and arguments I've conveyed here about matters altogether separate. Don't resort to baseless strawmen, please. Disliking Dracula X is not synonymous to hating other stage-based Castlevanias, nor does liking Rondo translate to an absolute love of games post-Symphony. They're all individual games, with their own successes and failures.

Secondly, I've "made up my mind" about Dracula X not because of some irrational hatred I bear towards it, but for the simple reason of not finding it a very well made video game. I don't continue to talk about it because I want to hound the people who actually do like it, such as yourself, but because there's merit and value in evaluating its design from all possible standpoints. In that vein, I haven't stooped to ignoring counterarguments from opposing viewpoints; they just have to be actually convincing to sway me. It's nothing to get ruffled about or take personally. Just because I dislike a particular thing doesn't mean I hate hearing opinions that speak for it, or vice versa. Rondo's perceived flaws have been brought up here a bunch, but since I don't particularly agree with most of the related reasoning, the game remains favourable in my eyes. I don't think any lesser of people who arrive at a different conclusion.

You can agree to disagree, but I wish it was done in a way that wasn't so explicitly confrontational and abrasive.