Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Flame on June 11, 2012, 05:16:48 AM
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PoR. supposed to be the direct sequel to Bloodlines. Failed miserably in that regard, since in the end it was just another metroidvania with the most contrived method ever for trying to do what Bloodlines did, which was "Travel around Europe" instead using paintings, therefore taking you to that painting's dimension.
still, PoR had some good ideas.
The dealio with the whip draining the life of any non Belmont user was a bit silly- (since the Morrises were yknow, descended from Belmonts, therefore making it only that regardless of heritage it just hates anyone who isnt named "Belmont) but could work if done proper, the idea of the whip having a memory of it's users is pretty interesting too, and ties into the semi sentience it seems to have as implied in LoI and AoS, although rather than making the whip's memory an excuse to shoehorn in Richter again, perhaps a battle with the FIRST Belmont? A battle against Leon? Defeat the clan founder and therefore the whip would acknowledge Johnny boy.
Or rather, why not just the memory of it's last user? John Morris sr. died from overusing the whip without defeating the memory of it's previous owner, why not make him whip's memory? I mean youve already got Eric's ghost around, (and for the record I just didnt get the cowboy design, nothing about it really made me think "Eric Lecarde") so why not?
For that matter, as much as I totally love Charlotte, she felt kind of pointless, lacking anything to actually connect her to the Belnades, despite being a token female magic user, and a mention by IGA that she is.
I would much rather doing away with the desu twins and throwing in a male (or female, no problem with that,) heir to the Lecarde family. Perhaps using the spear that was specifically made for them by Alucard and is supposed to be an important plot item that complements the Vampire Killer Whip and yet gets no real specific mention outside of Bloodlines and a cameo in SoTN's Saturn port.
One of the issues I see with PoR was the gimmick of two characters together. therefore classing them into melee user and magic user.
Plot could use work too. What if Nazi's storm the castle, perhaps to spend the night, and accidentally revive Dracula, eschewing Brawner all together. or, make Brawner a subordinate of Dracula's a la Orlock/Olrox, who perhaps slaughters the group to revive Dracula through their blood.
Theres a million things that could be done to make PoR so much better.
what do you guys think? any ideas? Thoughts?
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Delete it from reality forever.
As a less harsh variant:
- hire a normal artist, that will draw characters not as generic anime heroes
- hire a normal writer, that will actually write adequate dialogues without "No Problem" shit.
- hire a normal level designer, that will make Dracula's Castle look like Dracula's Castle and not as big empty stone building.
- take away second set of portraits or make them completely new stages, instead of lazy and ugly rehashes of the first set.
- leave Dracula battle as bad ending (or not so good ending) only.
- give more importance to Brauner as a villain, so he will look like a main villain of the game.
- give more lines to Reaper and sisters.
- make Wind more important to the story and replace monk with some sympathetic character.
- more puzzles based around dual system, less importance to the double jump.
- more bosses based around dual system, like Reaper.
- better designs for every location.
- enemies that become harder as player become stronger.
- less quests or at least more actually interesting quests.
- take away subweapon upgrade system. It's unneeded.
Maybe some few more things, but that is what I would do in the first place.
The story of the POR is good as it is, actually, but it need completely different approach, to not only sound good in paper, but to be good in reality.
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The dealio with the whip draining the life of any non Belmont user was a bit silly- (since the Morrises were yknow, descended from Belmonts, therefore making it only that regardless of heritage it just hates anyone who isnt named "Belmont) but could work if done proper
Perhaps what they were trying to get across is that the blood has to be less "diluted"--of closer heritage to the Belmonts of old than a Morris has (maybe the Morrises have been marrying more widely over different ethnic groups across Europe and the Belmonts stuck closer to the regions around Wallachia so their heritage is less diverse).
For that matter, as much as I totally love Charlotte, she felt kind of pointless, lacking anything to actually connect her to the Belnades, despite being a token female magic user, and a mention by IGA that she is.
Seems like he just kinda shoehorned that in there despite it not really being mentioned in the game that I recall. If I were a storyline bigwig on the CV dev team, I'd actually be wary of attaching every female magic user in the CV universe to the name Belnades. It sort of lends itself to a less believable universe (and CV has enough of those issues as it is with Drac coming back seemingly every 3 months, among other things). If magic exists in one's storyline, surely there should be more female practitioners of it roaming around than just those of the Belnades clan. It gives the CV world a more diverse feel if you see some other ones peppered throughout the games.
What if Nazi's storm the castle, perhaps to spend the night, and accidentally revive Dracula, eschewing Brawner all together.
No offense, but that seems a little cliche to me. It seems like there's a lot of fiction out there about the Nazis messing with the occult and reviving ancient evils and such. That might've been more expected for PoR than the plot we ended up getting.
Also, without Brauner, one would need a new excuse for teleporting to weird otherworldly locales rather than magical portraits, but I suppose that could be arranged.
or, make Brawner a subordinate of Dracula's a la Orlock/Olrox, who perhaps slaughters the group to revive Dracula through their blood.
I feel like I'm being overly critical, but I think Brauner not being in league with Drac was a bit more interesting a plot point than having him be a random minion trying to revive Drac. Dracula's had a lot of those over the years--random cultists, Shaft, Camilla, Bartley, etc. so it's more expected for me than some other vampire hiding out in his castle.
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No offense, but that seems a little cliche to me. It seems like there's a lot of fiction out there about the Nazis messing with the occult and reviving ancient evils and such.
There is a very good reason. Simply because, you know, they did try and do that for real. They were heavily tied to the occult, looking for ancient powerful artifacts, and attempting communications with aliens.
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Also, without Brauner, one would need a new excuse for teleporting to weird otherworldly locales rather than magical portraits, but I suppose that could be arranged.
Well we could yknow, actually have the protagonist actually travel around europe like in bloodlines, and not be stuck in a castle with a faux Europe travel.
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They had to make 'em portraits because Brauner was an artist. Also because he had to 'trap Dracula's Power by drawing his keep' or some other such nonsense.
Instead, they should have made Brauner an artist when he was alive, but upon vampification, he would dabble in the occult. You can take the idea that perhaps he was part of the Nazi movement and, upon his vamp, just started to heavily focus upon sorcery (something he may have been asked to research at the end of his life, when he was in the Third Reich). Then, make the portraits actual portals into locales in the world (not just Europe, as Egypt is technically a transcontinental country). The whole "Art" thing was shoehorned anyway.
And the four extra portraits were clearly palette swaps. They ran out of room but wanted content. I do not think they could've done new stages, but it would've been nice to revisit Bloodlines locales (maybe even do so with slightly-altered original graphics from the Genesis). I would've loved to have seen the Munitions Factory, the Palace of Versailles, or the Atlantis Shrine.
There was no need to have Eric OR John killed. John should have been severely weakened, and possibly could've taken the place of "Wind" and Eric could've been placed in the shop instead of Vincent. Perhaps Eric could've set up shop near Dracula's Castle as a look-out, with the Spear being used as a warding-away tool to keep monsters away.
Ah... the wasted potential...
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There is a very good reason. Simply because, you know, they did try and do that for real. They were heavily tied to the occult, looking for ancient powerful artifacts, and attempting communications with aliens.
If there were going to factor in Nazi Germany then the year would need to be earlier then 1944. During this time Germany was on the run from the allies in western Europe, and the Soviets in the east. It wouldn't make any sense for them to be plundering any castles at this time because their resources were already exhausted in a losing war effort and a gradual retreat back into Germany.
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There is a very good reason. Simply because, you know, they did try and do that for real. They were heavily tied to the occult, looking for ancient powerful artifacts, and attempting communications with aliens.
I know, but that doesn't mean it isn't played out in fiction by now.
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Much as I love it and the fact that it's my first Castlevania, I'm not a blind to the fact that it's flawed.
The anime look wasn't exactly a bad idea (the anime look was what actually caught my eye at the store), but in comparison to something like Namco's Tales series, it looks weak, and the overly CG opening didn't win me over either. A better artist would've been nice.
I know people complain about the writing, but I think that might be the fault of both the genre and the fact that Castlevania isn't exactly known for compelling writing and also that this is a sequel to a 1994 Genesis game where 80% of the plot was in the manual. It's actually one of the reasons I want Bloodlines to get the Chronicles treatment.
There's also the old saying: Show, don't tell. Show flashbacks between the characters or something like that.
The enemy variety annoys me too. If it supposed to be a sequel to Bloodlines, then why are most of the enemies from Rondo? We get it Konami, you love Rondo of Blood. But please, focus on something else. Speaking of which, there was a Richter and Maria tag mode but no John and Eric mode? For shame Konami.
The last four areas being palette swaps reeks of rushed development (and/or a lacking budget, as many rushed cases are). In my ideas for a re-release those areas would be substituted with places like sunken ships and jungles, or alternate painting entrances. Oh well.
The tag team gameplay also needed some work. Sure, the partners and dual crushes were there, but outside of a team jump that was quickly outdated by the double jump, it almost seemed like an afterthought, or they were afraid to fully implement the system. Here's an idea: why not have places where Jonathan and Charlotte are split apart and have to rendezvous at another section, or have one carry something important and fragile with the other to act as an escort? (Nitro anyone?)
There was no need to have Eric OR John killed. John should have been severely weakened, and possibly could've taken the place of "Wind" and Eric could've been placed in the shop instead of Vincent. Perhaps Eric could've set up shop near Dracula's Castle as a look-out, with the Spear being used as a warding-away tool to keep monsters away.
I remember reading at the Castlevania Wiki that the original plan was to have John as the hero, which would explain why father and son have such similar names... Wish I could confirm if this is the case though.
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If there were going to factor in Nazi Germany then the year would need to be earlier then 1944. During this time Germany was on the run from the allies in western Europe, and the Soviets in the east. It wouldn't make any sense for them to be plundering any castles at this time because their resources were already exhausted in a losing war effort and a gradual retreat back into Germany.
No shit. Just go back a couple of years. Problem solved.
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No shit. Just go back a couple of years. Problem solved.
Even still, making Nazis the enemies would've been too obvious and unoriginal. Brauner was actually an interesting villain, just the overall story and writing was awful. Not only that Konami would probably not be able to sell the game in Germany, which could've been a reason why they opted not to reference them in some way.
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I could not disagree more.
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They could have still referenced the world situation somehow. AoS had the dead soldiers, DoS the opening and the Lost Villiage. Oh and this
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20100826232221%2Fcastlevania%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F1%2F16%2FJonathan_-_CHD.PNG%2F490px-Jonathan_-_CHD.PNG&hash=bd0cbc632982f1b3eb128765dc5091a731a82a7e)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20100826232330%2Fcastlevania%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F8%2F89%2FCharlotte_-_CHD.PNG%2F344px-Charlotte_-_CHD.PNG&hash=6355f7e3f2682b3689b61b099704f0c418a63bd6)
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I could not disagree more.
The development team agreed. Too bad they made the script read like something out of shitty anime.
They could have still referenced the world situation somehow. AoS had the dead soldiers, DoS the opening and the Lost Villiage. Oh and this
The war was briefly referenced in the Intro I believe. Or maybe it was the box or manual. I don't have the box anymore and I don't feel like digging around for my cartridge. I'm sure someone else could verify.
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Or they were just lazy and oblivious; shitting out whatever required the least work. We all know story never came first with the IGA produced games, but if anything, this was the ONE to do just that. The potential was limitless. Instead we got a cash in story, with cash in gameplay, and cash in execution. A horrible game in nearly every aspect.
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No offense, but that seems a little cliche to me. It seems like there's a lot of fiction out there about the Nazis messing with the occult and reviving ancient evils and such. That might've been more expected for PoR than the plot we ended up getting.
Cliche, for the fact that it's an idea that's been done, maybe, but you can say, within the CV series, the whole "Dracula being resurrected by a cult" or "yet another Belmont faces against Dracula" is just as cliche. Hell, it would be as cliche as every take on Dracula(despite the little things that make them different/unique), every take on possession, ghosts, the whole "god is really an alien and mankind was an experiment", and the "Wait! I was dead all along!" type story. There's nothing wrong with a simple, shared base idea, it's how it's executed that makes it worthwhile. You could have five titles that, simply put, are about heroes rescuing princesses, but the meat of the game and what transpires are all very different from each other. Take an example the movie Inception. Some might think it was orignal, the idea to enter the dreams of other people to influence them and such. It WAS done prior to that, though, in the movie Dreamscape. The only thing is, Inception did it's own thing and did it well. Base concept's pretty damn close, nonetheless(using dream interaction to influence the sleeping person, or help them psychologically to deal with issues, or even KILL them). It's the spin you put on it that makes it unique.
I think people wanted the whole "Nazi occultisim" because, seemingly, there WAS a group that DID dabble in the such. Were the conjuring demons? No, but it WAs still something that went on, and the mysteries of such intrigues people and imaginations run wild. It's similar to the whole "secret history" theme of various stories(Castlevania included). That there's this shadow of events that happens under our noses, kept from the history books, covered up by the governments of the world to keep us in ignorance(in CV's case, for the greater good). Whether it's been done before, so what. It's been done, will be done again, and so on and so on. CV could've put it's own unique spin on it, and that would've been one I would've love to see.
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I'm aware that CV already uses tons of cliches (probably to be expected given that the story doesn't really come first in the games). I'm merely advocating cutting down the number of them as far as possible while still maintaining the traditional feel of the series.
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Delete it from reality forever.
As a less harsh variant:
- make it into a completely different game
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-Dial down the super happy tone of the artwork and dialogue a few hundred notches.
-Replace Richter and Maria with John and Eric. (Too many throwbacks to Rondo, not enough to Bloodlines.)
-Actual globetrotting rather than painting stuff. (Why wasn't OoE's map system used here?)
-Make Eric look anywhere near what he's like in Bloodlines.
-Co-op play. (The boss rush mode doesn't count.)
-Have sprite artists consult with each other for some kind of consistency in artwork. (You could say this for all the DS games though.)
-More references to WWII than just a blurb in the introduction.
-Make Brauner look like something other than Olrox MK II.
-Take out that fucking Keremet boss.
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They could always adapt "Bloodbath" as an alternate ending.
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- make it into a completely different game
That's not what I had proposed. I think the core of the game could be the same, but there should very many improvements here and there. It's shouldn't be remade as completely different game, but changed in multiple aspects to make it more dark, serious, interesting and "Castlevaniaish".
And no Nazis. POR story could perfectly work without them and they involvement is one of the most tired cliches, when it comes to the supernatural stories happening during WWII.
-Make Brauner look like something other than Olrox MK II.
Wasn't he already looking pretty much like modernized version of Olrox?
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That's not what I had proposed.
Oh, I know. I was proposing it. :3
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Wasn't he already looking pretty much like modernized version of Olrox?
that's the problem
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that's the problem
Their both based off of Nosferatu, the German version of Dracula.
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Their both based off of Nosferatu, the German version of Dracula.
I find it amusing that a lot of the Castlevania titles are similar to the full title of that film:
Nosferatu: A Symphony of Horror
An interesting fact: Nosferatu was nearly physically obliterated from the face of the planet for copyright reasons. There are only a handful of prints left, and none of them are original.
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Their both based off of Nosferatu, the German version of Dracula.
Olrox, I'm guess, was meant to be "Orlok", which IS Nosferatu.
And I agree, I didn't care for Brauner looking like Graf Orlok. I remember when he was first announced, but before we got to see what he looked like, someone mentioned that when they heard his name, they imagined him to have a beard. I would've preferred a different look, myself. One with hair. I recall Brauner was inspired by Victor Brauner, a surealist painter. Actually, they could've worked more of that into the story. Victor Brauner was a Romanian Jew, and considering what was going on in the time, and CV's Brauner hate of war because his daughters were killed, it could add more Brauner's rage.
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Their both based off of Nosferatu, the German version of Dracula.
Again, that's the problem. His design is totally unoriginal and is just a knockoff of Olrox, who is supposed to be Orlock.
Why couldnt they just give him an original design? I mean, Walter came out just fine... So what happened there? Ill blame whoever was in charge of the character designs... I didnt really like Johnathan's either. Seemed... too anime... Dunno how to explain it.
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If the game must have puzzles, please more than 2 or 3. I clearly remember that the duo abilities are used one or twice for puzzles in the game and it is reaaaally too anecdotic.
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The development team agreed. Too bad they made the script read like something out of shitty anime.
The war was briefly referenced in the Intro I believe. Or maybe it was the box or manual. I don't have the box anymore and I don't feel like digging around for my cartridge. I'm sure someone else could verify.
I meant like in game, like in gameplay, not just the intro. Again AoS had the dead soldiers and DoS the intro sequence in the city and the cars
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re-write the plot, Brauner Kidnapping Eric's daughters didn't really amount to much and the whole whip draining life thing was total Bullshit, also Dracula was shoe-horned in as opposed to playing an actual part of the plot (like most of the metroidvanias)
I suggest a new plot...
- Jonathan is there to avenge his father's Death from the Hands of Dracula (like his father)
- Eric was Killed by Brauner, Serves more to the plot other than quests
- Charolette has a better reason for being there other than just tagging along.
- Dracula works behind the scenes, and actual evidence will be shown in game
- Brauner takes advantage of the situation and has Nazi Zombies
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Biggest thing: Make the portraits into actual "Classicvania" levels with death pits and such like Bloodlines, and expand the castle's size to please both crowds.
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Take advantage of the timeframe. One of the things that made Bloodlines so great was that you could easily tell the time period by looking at John's clothing and some of the levels, like the munitions factory.
There was hardly anything like that in Portrait of Ruin, aside from a few enemies using guns and the circus levels being implied to have been torn apart by the war.
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Olrox, I'm guess, was meant to be "Orlok", which IS Nosferatu.
IIRC, that WAS his name in the Japanese version.
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I really wonder why they changed it, when both Dracula and Orlock are public domain. Which is yknow, why they can even use Dracula and Orlock's names and likenesses.
But back on topic; yeah one of my favorite parts of Bloodlines was John's era appropriate clothing, and the nods to actual places in that actual timeframe in the world.
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I really wonder why they changed it, when both Dracula and Orlock are public domain. Which is yknow, why they can even use Dracula and Orlock's names and likenesses.
I always thought it was just due to bad 90s translations. I mean, especially during that era of PS1, some Japanese games had some really goofed up translations. Orlok became "Olrox" and Konami of the West figured they'd just stick with it for continuity sake. I mean, we've stuck with Trevor all these years. It's not like Konami of the West suddenly decided to stick closer to the Japanese intent and renamed him Ralph. I actually don't mind Olrox, though. It's the CV spin on Orlok, making him obviously inspired, but at the same time, somewhat unique. Kinda like Elizabeth Bartley, inspired by Elizabeth Bathory, but still her own character as well.
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Fair enough I suppose.
Funfact: The Dracula novel was public domain in the U.S. since it's publication, due to Stoker apparently not following proper copyright procedures. Everywhere else it became public domain 50 years after Stoker died, in 1962.
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Interesting. Useless, but interesting. Love this sort of stuff.
As for the translation practices of the past, let us not forget that this same game graced us with the Malachi/Ctulhu name switch AND the completely "made up cause we were bored LotR geeks" LotR references. I think when I did my own translations there was like exactly one LotR sword in the entire inventory of the Japanese version of the game.
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Fair enough I suppose.
Funfact: The Dracula novel was public domain in the U.S. since it's publication, due to Stoker apparently not following proper copyright procedures. Everywhere else it became public domain 50 years after Stoker died, in 1962.
This is why Murnau called his vampire Orlok in Nosferatu. He couldn't use the name Dracula, even if Orlok is indeed Dracula.
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And he still got sued and Stoker's Estate still won the suit. So apparently that didn't quite work out, now did it?
He got lucky though- that pirated versions of the film survived long past the destruction order, enough to become public domain.
In short, the very existence of the film was saved by Pirates who made copies of it.
CHALK ANOTHER POINT UP FOR PIRATING! *cue you are a pirate song*
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Here's my opinion:
They should have made Brauner a unappreciated human artist who dabbling in dark magic with the intent of enhancing his artistic talent, but ended up turning himself into a vampire who now desires to wipe out humanity for not appreciating his artwork (cheesy I know). Decides to use his art and now found power to steal Dracula's power.
The sisters should just be two of his victims (no need to save them).
Death should still be trying to eliminate Brauner.
Get rid of that whole whip draining away the life of non-Belmonts who wield the whip.
Neither Jonatan nor Eric should be dead. We don't need the priest. It would start out with John and Eric investigating the fact that Dracula's castle has reappeared and seems active. Tehy hit a snag and realize they can't do it and decide to regroup at the entrance when John's son Jonathan shows up with Charlotte. Jonathan and Charlotte decide to finish what John and Eric originally set out to do. At which point, John and Eric decide to stay at the entrance and provide support anyway they can. John provides quests (more interesting than the ones we are familiar with) ending with acquisition of the vampire killer (no power unlocking needed) while Eric sets up shop. Both of them offer advice from time to time.
The Vampire killer whip is the most powerful weapon of the game for Jonathan.
Death will not be in a set boss room because we will be constantly searching for Brauner. During your first encounter with Death, he simply tells you not to interfere with his mission (which is to get rid of Brauner and revive Dracula, the true master of the castle. He doesn't tell you this though). In every subsequent encounter, he will fight you and if you can't defeat him fast enough, he will run away. If you don't defeat Death before fighting Brauner, you will have to fight Dracula and Death at the together in the throne room after Brauner.
This is my vision of how the game should be.
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I think that PoR story was good, poorly...idk...implemented(?), but good
They should have made Brauner a unappreciated human artist who dabbling in dark magic with the intent of enhancing his artistic talent, but ended up turning himself into a vampire who now desires to wipe out humanity for not appreciating his artwork (cheesy I know). Decides to use his art and now found power to steal Dracula's power.
Ummm...this is waaaaaaay worse than his actual story