Castlevania Dungeon Forums

The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: CaptainCalabaza on September 19, 2012, 08:07:10 PM

Title: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: CaptainCalabaza on September 19, 2012, 08:07:10 PM
i dont buy it. how about you guys ?
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Phoenix7786 on September 19, 2012, 08:14:32 PM
Everyone has an origin story they don't like, whether it's Sonia's origin on the Gameboy, Leon's origin on LoI, or Gabriel's on the PS3/Xbox360.

However these topics can always make good discussion fuel! And welcome to the 'Dungeon!
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: crisis on September 19, 2012, 08:39:54 PM
What do you mean you don't "buy" it? Explain yourself.

Quote
However these topics can always make good discussion fuel!

only if the OP decides to make a good argument in his/her initial post.. or else people should be making topics with the title "mathias was a bad friend, agree?" and just saying "topic" in their post lol
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: CaptainCalabaza on September 19, 2012, 08:58:10 PM
a thousand year feud over a girl ? really ? the cause of dracula's vampirism is a freakin' stone ? character design that looks like world of warcraft rejects ? yet another girly looking protagonist ? whats RIGHT about it ? dont get me wrong, i enjoyed the game ( especially that little Pumpkin guy ), but i dont see it as a good starting point for an age - old conflict storywise.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Kale on September 20, 2012, 12:28:35 AM
a thousand year feud over a girl ? really ?

Same can be said for Helen of Troy! BAM!
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: X on September 20, 2012, 09:48:07 AM
Quote
Same can be said for Helen of Troy! BAM!

Except the Trojan war only went on for a decade whereas CV has been going on for a thousand years with some century breaks in between.

LoI was alright for what it was and I rather enjoyed playing through it. But the only detail that skewed the rest of the series from then-on was Dracula's origins. IGA should not have touched that subject with an 90 foot poll. And yes some of the characters should have had better designs. Leon didn't look too bad but his 'bed hair' was out of place in that time period. Instead he should have sported a short hair or long braided hair. Also his over sized gauntlet. Not practical in any way and not very attractive to look at. Giving him a wrist buckler would have a wiser choice. Sara's look was very European so high marks for that, however her face did not match at all with the official art style. It was way too Asian-looking and even today just thinking about it makes me cringe slightly. If Sara is a European noble woman then she should not have been made to look Asian in the first place. As for the ebony and crimson stones... This game came out after the first Harry Potter film so I personally think this inspired IGA somewhat to include a brief mention of the Philosopher stone, and thus the Ebony and Crimson stones were born out of this. But originally Dracula never had the Crimson stone. instead he wore the classic bloodstone. IGA just merged the two so know the bloodstone is the Crimson stone. But even if Dracula has both stones he really doesn't need them. He acquired his power all on his own where as IGA's Dracula needed help in order to acquire the power  :rollseyes:

Again LoI was a good game to play but some of it's aesthetics could use a bit of polishing and the Dracula origin story itself was a big screw up.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Sumac on September 20, 2012, 12:11:06 PM
Quote
a thousand year feud over a girl ? really ? the cause of dracula's vampirism is a freakin' stone ? character design that looks like world of warcraft rejects ? yet another girly looking protagonist ? whats RIGHT about it ? dont get me wrong, i enjoyed the game ( especially that little Pumpkin guy ), but i dont see it as a good starting point for an age - old conflict storywise.
Personally I more or less OK with LOI as origin story. It could have been done better, in particular without Castlevania cliche story of "two friends - one become evil", that was used several times through the series by that point. Origin deserved to stand out from the rest of the series. Instead, it's using already tired plot-device and couldn't even execute it decently. For the player "big revelation" of Mathias being the culprit behind Leon's trouble was literally nothing. Unlike Leon, who supposedly knew Mathias for a long time, player was familiar with him for a few sentences in the intro and manual, so he didn't had any reason to care about Mathias or anything. Yeah, some guy, who was mentioned in the intro of the game is the main villain...big deal!!
And thanks to the "brand new plot device (Ah, Sarcasm)" and the way intro accentuated Mathias importance, it was obvious that Mathias will turn out the main bad guy, even for the people who didn't know about the series, I believe.

As for the reason of the feud...well, I think it was a good reason to start personal conflict between Mathias and Leon, but not the thousand-year long war between Dracula and Belmonts. As we can assume, Leon was hellbent to get Mathias who went into hiding. So, hellbent that he purposely trained his son (or daughter?) to become a new owner of the Vampire Killer and "hunt the Night". Now, this is where this story starts to get a little off for me.

I am understand Leon's desire to avenge his beloved, but I'm not OK with him, basically, taking away a chance for a normal life from his descendants and sending them to the war that litterally had nothing to do with them. If, there was a story, where Mathias commits horrible atrocities before CV3 and child or grand child of Leon, decided on HIS OWN to hunt Mathias, not to avenge would-be-bride of they father who they didn't really have much reasons to care for, but because Mathias was just potentially dangerous to the humanity (as he later proved) than I will be perfectly OK with LOI setup. But by now, LOI origin looks really melodramatic and somewhat incomplete. At least to me.

And in the current timeline, Leon ultimately comes as no less insane than Mathias himself. One decided to mock god out of spite and for that ruined life of his best friend, the other - threw life of his children into trash and put them into constant danger. And both did it because of the same reason. Now, do I spot a bit too many similarities between the two?

Of course, maybe it was IGA's grand plan all along and then I will be totally on board with this idea, since its ultimately very ironic and ingenious that the greatest threat to the humanity and the greatest hope of it, were both born by madness, caused essentially by the same reason. If it was the plan, than I will take all my usual IGAbashing back, though I doubt it. And even if it was the core idea, it was still rather poorly conveyed.

As for designs - I don't have absolutely nothing against them. I think LOI characters are one of the best works of Kojima in the series.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Nagumo on September 20, 2012, 12:39:54 PM
I always viewed the incident that occured between Mathias and Leon as negligible as far the Belmonts feud against Dracula is concerned. It's not like Leon's motivation directly affects that of later Belmonts anyway. Dracula threatens the world and they are the only capable to destroy him. You could say IGA retconned this to be their motivation when he wrote the story for LoI, but it makes far more sense if this was only a secondary reason at best. So I don't think it's correct to think that what Mathias did to Leon is THE reason why the Belmonts fight against Dracula. It's more like a prelude than an actual cause, I think.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Thomas Belmont on September 20, 2012, 02:24:39 PM
A couple of things that really disappointed me, from what I can remember, are that the Vampire Killer was just given to Leon by Rinaldo and the game didn't mention much about Matthias'/Dracula's and Death's first encounter. Dracula controls Death because he has a magical stone? Pretty lackluster, in my opinion.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheCruelAngel on September 20, 2012, 02:47:23 PM
I personally haven't beatin' LoI yet, so cut me a little slack on this opinion but here are my 2 cents.

Dracula has had a few "origin" stories and interpretations over the years (Judas, Vlad who condemns and rejects God, etc.) and for the CV lore I appreciate Iga trying to do his own thing for it, kind of have everything mesh better with his idea of how the continuity and timeline played out. However, I was also perfectly fine imagining Dracula was a 15th century prince of Wallachia who rejected God and died, only to come back and blanket the world in darkness and evil, powered by nothing but spite and hatred.

I think that makes for an awesome setup, since from what I'm reading stones are the key to Dracula's power in LoI? I don't know, I agree with some of the sentiment here and that it leaves me wanting more. Heck, the origin of Dracula in the LoS timeline seems better (again haven't finished it yet, kinda slow at this stuff guys!), though I still prefer my Wallachian prince.  :P

IMO, I think LoI should of focused on Leon dedicating his lineage to hunting evil/night/vampires in general instead of this grudge match against Mathias. I mean, if the grudge is over a girl, his one true love or whatever, then how realistic would it be to assume Leon would propagate his line to train the next in line for no other reason than grudge? No love there folks, just pure breeding for war, and I think that's unfair to the lady that would eventually bear Leon's children.

Thinking about it...it really does paint Leon in a negative light...maybe Iga should of thought about the post game consequences for his characters in this universe. Though, some have said this already I think Kojima's work in LoI is indeed some of her best as well. I especially love her crusader Leon outfit.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: darkwzrd4 on September 20, 2012, 03:44:52 PM
I'm with most of you.  This should NOT have been the origin of Dracula.  In my opinion, Mathias should not have existed as the antagonist.  Instead, it should have just been everything minus the Mathias and Death things. 
The End

That is what LoI should have been.  An origin of the Vampire Killer whip the Belmonts use.  As far as their war against Dracula, it could be said the they have the skills needed and Leon started a tradition to training in case such a threat ever emerged.  The only reason they fight Dracula is that he is a threat to the world and they have the skills and power to fight him so they do.  No blood feud.  Just plain and simple good versus evil.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheouAegis on September 20, 2012, 04:53:24 PM
Well if you look at the timeline and compare it to history (some historical differences aside), LOI's isn't all that bad as you guys make it out to be.

Mathias becomes Dracula... 400 YEARS LATER. Leon's vendetta has nothing to do with how he raises his kids, as it's never his kids nor his grandkids who fight Dracula. By the time Trevor meets Dracula, Leon's been worm food for over three centuries.

If you look at the history of Wallachia, it's a family feud, but a powerful alchemist like Mathias could easily forge himself a new identity and try to rule Wallachia (Vlad Tepes), only to be constantly harassed by the legitimate heirs (Grant, et al).

The Crimson Stone makes perfect sense as a faux-Philosopher's Stone. Mathias would give his most powerful minions a stone that they think are imbuing them with more power, but really the crystals are drawing out each monster's latent strengths and storing that power inside. When the monsters die, Mathias would hope to retrieve the crystals (brought to him conveniently by Leon's descendants) and harness the powers stored in each one.

The whole alchemist Dracula story makes perfect sense, since an alchemist as adept at the art as Mathias after 400 years would be condemned by the Church as a sorceror. Dracula doesn't summon demons when he dies, he transmutates. He's an alchemist through and through. How is he brought back to life? Alchemy. Why do humans keep wanting to bring him back? He's one of the greatest alchemical minds in history. He knows the secrets of alchemy long since discarded by the Church as heresy.

As for why Dracula looks different from incarnation to incarnation, read H.P. Lovecraft's "The Thing on the Doorstep".
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Inccubus on September 20, 2012, 06:03:39 PM
I always viewed the incident that occured between Mathias and Leon as negligible as far the Belmonts feud against Dracula is concerned. It's not like Leon's motivation directly affects that of later Belmonts anyway. Dracula threatens the world and they are the only capable to destroy him. You could say IGA retconned this to be their motivation when he wrote the story for LoI, but it makes far more sense if this was only a secondary reason at best. So I don't think it's correct to think that what Mathias did to Leon is THE reason why the Belmonts fight against Dracula. It's more like a prelude than an actual cause, I think.

This. And seriously people, don't underestimate the loss of a beloved as motivation for just about anything in the heart of a human being.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: crisis on September 20, 2012, 06:28:02 PM
Too further clarify TheouAegis' post, lettuce examine the established canon details of games prior to IGA's involvment:

4rom CVIII,
Quote
15th century Europe. During the Dark Ages, there was a man who was feared by all. A man who has stopped being human. His name was
Count Vlad Tepes, otherwise known as Dracula. His territory was located at the outskirts of Transylvania, at the Wallachia territory, where he
used a taboo art to resurrect an evil deity. The deity granted him power
and in exchange, he summoned several apparitions from the spirit
world in order to scorch and massacre the entire nation of Wallachia with darkness.
Adventure Time with Chris & Drac,
Quote
Transylvania, a small country in Europe, is associated even today with a demon's legend. With his powerful evil power, the legacy of
Count Dracula has been dreaded by the people. However, no matter how many times Dracula comes back, he never manages to fully
change the world into darkness as he is always put away by Simon, a descendant of the Belmont clan. However, the devil Dracula has
existed long before his first confrontation. Not as the devil Dracula, but as an evil sorcerer.
Count Dracula was a fanatical demon worshipper,
who built a dark castle at the outskirts of Transylvania and conducted evil rituals every night. He has summoned several demons from the
other world to serve him and he himself has been trying to get eternal life by becoming a demon king possesing evil powers. With each
day, Count Dracula's evil powers became more frigtening, as he spread fear and terror to the people of the village. Until one day, a man
stood up. It was Christopher, an ancestor of the Belmont family. Christopher rushed to the dark castle. Many demons and traps layed out
are waiting for him at the castle. Will he be able to defeat the transformed devil, Count Dracula, as expected?


Stake those bolded tidbits into account, and they match perfectly with the events that took place in Lament. Mathias, descending from a family of alchemists, used his family's knowledge & own skills to summon Death, the evil deity that was first mentioned in CVIII.

Quote from: CVIII Manual
The deity granted him power..
Quote from: LoI Script
Death: This power... I offer to the king who wields the Crimson Stone!

Quote from: Mathias
I needed a powerful vampire's soul. That is all.
Quote from: PoR Timeline
The Belmont Clan, inheriting the burden of finding Mathias, continue to hunt down vampires.
For this reason, all members of the Belmont Clan are bestowed with the title, Vampire Hunter.
Feared for their powers, they are shunned by society. To further their troubles, each slain
vampire only adds to the growing power of Dracula
.


The developers behind CVA decided to take it a step further, by making him into something that goes WAY beyond Vlad III's origins,
Quote from: CVA Manual
he himself has been trying to get eternal life by becoming a demon king possesing evil powers..
Quote from: Mathias
IF limited life is God's decree, then I shall defy it!! And within that eternity, I shall curse Him forevermore!
Quote from: CVA Manual
the devil Dracula has existed long before his first confrontation. Not as the devil Dracula, but as an evil sorcerer.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/c0mbat/iga2-2.png)
(note that IGA says Dracula was living quite peacefully during that unknown period, yet CVA's manual says he was busy summoning demons. This may seem contradictory, but this just means Dracula was going uninterrupted for an extended period of time, no Belmonts/other heroes tracking him down. Besides, it wasn't until he met Lisa, Elisabetha's "incarnation," that things for him started to unravel, so to speak (laughs)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/c0mbat/int_zps8b2effdf.png)


So, as you can see, Lament of Incense' Dracula origin jives quite well with the established canon of the CV universe, and I think people just have their own preconceived notions on what Dracula SHOULD be, rather than what he was ESTABLISHED to be since the very beginning, so they react negatively to what IGA/game content/other developers have done. In the CV universe, he was never Voivode of Transylvania and waged war against the Turks. Konami wanted him to be something more than what history gave us.


also,
Quote
And seriously people, don't underestimate the loss of a beloved as motivation for just about anything in the heart of a human being.
This is 100% true. "mathias lost his wife, what a baby." Mathias was stricten with grief & was bedridden for quite some time. His life was devoted to God, he though He could do no wrong to him. I'm sure his anger was building as he felt powerless in his bed, after all he's done in God's name, he felt betrayed.

If you were to lose a loved one, be it significant other, child, etc. I wonder how YOU would react. You probably wouldn't go to work/school/wherever the next day, you'd be in an entirely different state of mind. Like Mathias.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Lelygax on September 20, 2012, 06:39:21 PM
Well in my opinion they dont fight Dracula because of this, I think that the first kid of Leon trained because of that, but after they other descendents have forgotten why they do that and simple continues to fight monsters, lets remember that in CV3 that the Belmonts returned to Wallachia, before that they have been banned because they feared they super-human powers. The major error starts here: Why in LoI they didnt shows NOTHING about this "super strength", they only show things about the whip.

Quote
If you were to lose a loved one, be it significant other, child, etc. I wonder how YOU would react. You probably wouldn't go to work/school/wherever the next day, you'd be in an entirely different state of mind. Like Mathias.

Since my grandmother died my faith in God has fallen considerably, since she started to sleep minutes before of I leaving the hospital and never awaked again (Yes, she didnt are sleeping, she died). The only thing that I asked for God is to her get better, and that what I received. Mixing that with things that happened before only worsened my case. So yes, Mathias motive not is impossible in our world, its more easy than you thought.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: X on September 20, 2012, 06:45:59 PM
Quote
In the CV universe, he was never Voivode of Transylvania and waged war against the Turks. Konami wanted him to be something more than what history gave us.

Konami never gave us the "Mathias is Dracula" origin. That was all IGA. What Konami DID give us was the classic Hammer films Dracula of the silver screen. A much better hardcore villain then Mathias IMO.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: crisis on September 20, 2012, 06:52:08 PM
Last time I checked, IGA is an employee of Konami. So whatever IGA does, Konami does & vice-versa.
IGA can't go and start his own company and make a game starring Mathias, because Mathias is Konami property. Y'know, just like how Keiji Inafune can't make his own MegaMan games, since MM is Capcom property despite Inafune being the "father" of MM.


As with classic Hammer film Dracula, you're just talking visually. And he retained that look in Poultry of Ruin
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Lelygax on September 20, 2012, 06:56:12 PM
 Wait, so thats why they did choose that name to CV Hammer?
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheCruelAngel on September 20, 2012, 10:04:43 PM
Crisis, you blew my mind. Bravo.

After your thorough, citated and just amazing response, I definitely see it as the way you and TheouAegis described. Just amazing.

Inccubus, I think one of the reasons I fancied Vlad cursing God and becoming Dracula is based on the notion of unfathomable loss. I take a lot of that interpretation with Coppula's Dracula and that it was his anger and sorrow was just so great he became one beyond God's and death's domain. So I definitely wasn't discounting that. And that's more to what I was referring to when I say I was a little disappointed to hear Dracula's origin is based more on a stone versus the culmination of his own personal anguish and sorrow (though it's still intrinsically tied together, so that's still awesome).

I never realized how much the accompanying text from the previous games really set up LoI to be a good birthplace to set into motion the creation of Dracula. Bravo to Iga for making that work yet keeping with his guns that Trevor dealt with Dracula first. Definitely a man who understood Castlevania's universe and how to work within it while adding his own flair.

Like I said in the disclaimer earlier, I haven't beaten LoI yet and these are my impressions from the information I've read here at the Dungeon, so thanks for being gentle.  ;D Though maybe I'll go and boot it up and try playing it some more tonight...
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Sumac on September 21, 2012, 07:04:38 AM
Quote
If you were to lose a loved one, be it significant other, child, etc. I wonder how YOU would react. You probably wouldn't go to work/school/wherever the next day, you'd be in an entirely different state of mind. Like Mathias.
With approach in mind, its ultimately makes Leon as insane as Mathias himself.

Quote
A couple of things that really disappointed me, from what I can remember, are that the Vampire Killer was just given to Leon by Rinaldo and the game didn't mention much about Matthias'/Dracula's and Death's first encounter.
That should have been somewhat discussed in the game. While the overall plot kind of works, this all "Mathias is culprit" thing comes of as rushed and out of nowhere in the actual game.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: uzo on September 21, 2012, 10:50:23 AM
Well in my opinion they dont fight Dracula because of this, I think that the first kid of Leon trained because of that, but after they other descendents have forgotten why they do that and simple continues to fight monsters,

That is incorrect I believe. Juste Belmont vaguely mentions the events of LoI in passing. Likely a lead up hint for the LoI/AoS production plan.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Lelygax on September 21, 2012, 12:07:36 PM
That is incorrect I believe. Juste Belmont vaguely mentions the events of LoI in passing. Likely a lead up hint for the LoI/AoS production plan.
Seriously? So I must have overlooked that. can you show us this dialogue please? Because Im really curous about that now, I've played this game various times, but I think that maybe I stopped to give attention to the text without noticing that.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: crisis on September 21, 2012, 03:48:48 PM
Quote
Inccubus, I think one of the reasons I fancied Vlad cursing God and becoming Dracula is based on the notion of unfathomable loss. I take a lot of that interpretation with Coppula's Dracula and that it was his anger and sorrow was just so great he became one beyond God's and death's domain. So I definitely wasn't discounting that. And that's more to what I was referring to when I say I was a little disappointed to hear Dracula's origin is based more on a stone versus the culmination of his own personal anguish and sorrow (though it's still intrinsically tied together, so that's still awesome).

Yeah, I like Dracula's origin in the Coppola movie, too (which coincidentally has parallels with Lament. I gotta feeling IGA's a fan as well)

Bram Stoker's Dracula - Prologue (extended) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BlnxN0JZMg#)
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: X on September 21, 2012, 08:13:07 PM
       ^^^
Now THAT is much better Dracula origin then LoI's was. Far more powerful in delivery and not needing any alchemical stones to acquire the power either. Dracula did it all on his own. and that extended scene adds more clear dialog too. Good find.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: GuyStarwind on September 21, 2012, 09:57:32 PM
I love the LoI story. I personally feel it's one of the better CV stories. I will say some of the more important info is (to quote a trope) "all in the manual" but I feel it's one of those CV games that the title fits perfectly with the events of the game. Let's face it every character in the game is an innocent lamenting over someone or something.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Lelygax on September 22, 2012, 10:25:02 AM
Let's face it every character in the game is an innocent lamenting over someone or something.
Everyone except Mathias, he is only lamenting, but not innocently since the others are just pawns playing in his game.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheouAegis on September 22, 2012, 10:52:26 AM
On the topic of Belmonts having "speical powers", I don't think Akumajou Densetsu specifically states they have a special power. Not just keeping in line with the Church conspiracy theory (see my post about Dracula's alchemy), but in general practice, if the Belmonts were performing exorcisms and vampire slayings without the Church's consent, they were heretics and would have be excommunicated. And if the Vatican's army and any other army for that matter was unable to defeat vampires and demons with the apparent ease that the Belmonts had, then rumors would spread that the clan has special powers, when really they were just good at what they did. It's like glorifying and aggrandizing the Spartans, or how magicians were once believed to be in league with Satan.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Inccubus on September 22, 2012, 10:55:50 AM
Yeah, I like Dracula's origin in the Coppola movie, too (which coincidentally has parallels with Lament. I gotta feeling IGA's a fan as well)

Bram Stoker's Dracula - Prologue (extended) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BlnxN0JZMg#)

Holy shit, awesome! Never knew there was an extended version of that scene. I think that would fit CV as an origin story a hell of a lot better than how it was executed in LoI. Not dissing LoI, but I think they tried to do too much in that one game and kind of softened Dracula's character too much. I think it would have been better to have done LoI exclusively as an origin for the Vampire Killer & how the Belmonts became vampire hunters. Then they could have followed up with a remake of CV3 that expands the story to include a flashback of Dracula's established theatrical origin. It would have been epic, and it could have been worked into the story without much issue at all.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheouAegis on September 22, 2012, 11:09:51 AM
Back on the issue of Leon's story...

Where did the other Belmont hunters come from? Who was Trevor's great-great-great-great-great-grandfather? And who was his grandfather? And the grandfather of him? If they were all descendants of Leon, then who was Leon's wife? Or did he birth a child out of wedlock? It's 99% certain that Sara wasn't the mother of his children.

And where does LoI take place, even? It's easy enough to say it takes place in England because Leon's surname is Belmont, but as has been argued time and again, that's the European/US version and in the original Japanese version it's Belmonde, suggesting France. Trantoul is French, so that lends credence to the France origin. Buuut. Mathias and his wife are of Swedish descent. Walter and Joachim are German. Rinaldo is either Italian or Italian-German (or German-Italian). The German possibility of Rinaldo would make sense because it kinda explains why he's familiar with Walter. HOWEVER, Rinaldo's daughter has a French name. So it makes things confusing. I'm leaning toward French origin story where a German vampire invaded (Germans love invading France, so it makes sense) France and a French knight stopped him.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: GuyStarwind on September 22, 2012, 12:46:19 PM
Everyone except Mathias, he is only lamenting, but not innocently since the others are just pawns playing in his game.
I would say he was innocent at the start(before the game starts) when his wife died but during the events of LoI he wasn't so innocent.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Lelygax on September 22, 2012, 12:59:22 PM
Yes, that is what I meant, during the game.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Sumac on September 22, 2012, 02:26:51 PM
Quote
Where did the other Belmont hunters come from? Who was Trevor's great-great-great-great-great-grandfather? And who was his grandfather? And the grandfather of him? If they were all descendants of Leon, then who was Leon's wife? Or did he birth a child out of wedlock? It's 99% certain that Sara wasn't the mother of his children.
Those are the reasons (amongst the others) that I have with the old CV timeline. Those question so simple to answer and they are kind of important to the overall timeline, yet, they were never answered.

Quote
And where does LoI take place, even?
Some generic mish-mash incarnation of Europe, I assume.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Lelygax on September 22, 2012, 02:39:21 PM
 If they do a game about that it would be cool, but PLEASE, dont mention the damn DMC (Demon Castle War, not Devil May Cry), they hyped so much this DMC thing that now its almost impossible to they do a game that will be true to our expectatives.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: VladCT on September 22, 2012, 03:22:52 PM
If they do a game about that it would be cool, but PLEASE, dont mention the damn DMC (Demon Castle War, not Devil May Cry), they hyped so much this DMC thing that now its almost impossible to they do a game that will be true to our expectatives.
Dude, that one's abbreviated as DCW, not DMC.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Lelygax on September 22, 2012, 03:27:45 PM
Dude, that one's abbreviated as DCW.

Thanks for pointing that, I dont know how I did this type of error, it only shows how my head isnt okay I think. xD
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: crisis on September 22, 2012, 03:56:22 PM
Quote
And where does LoI take place, even?

somewhere in Romania

Quote
Some generic mish-mash incarnation of Europe, I assume.

this is actually a more accurate description of LoS' locale
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Ratty on September 22, 2012, 05:45:58 PM
Eh, I like LoI pretty well. Everything about it has grown on me over time. I still think LoD is by far the best 3Dvania but LoI is a good game, that includes the story.
I still prefer to think that Castlevania Legends happened though, and that the later Belmonts are all descendants of Dracula by way of Alucard. It adds a whole other dimension to the struggle. Inheriting the weight of the sins of the father, but also the strength to combat him. It's only fitting that Dracula's fate would be bound by his own bloodline.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Lelygax on September 22, 2012, 06:13:14 PM
Eh, I like LoI pretty well. Everything about it has grown on me over time. I still think LoD is by far the best 3Dvania but LoI is a good game, that includes the story.
I still prefer to think that Castlevania Legends happened though, and that the later Belmonts are all descendants of Dracula by way of Alucard. It adds a whole other dimension to the struggle. Inheriting the weight of the sins of the father, but also the strength to combat him. It's only fitting that Dracula's fate would be bound by his own bloodline.

*Soma, Genya Arikado and Julius are in a random place*

Soma: So why did you two called me Genya?
Genya: I need to tell you the truth, my name isnt Genya...
Alucard: ...its Alucard.
Soma: What?!
Alucard: And you are my father.
Soma: What?!!!
Julius: Im impressed that you told the truth to him, but why you called me here?
Alucard: Father, Julius is your grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrand...
*5 minutes later*
...grandson.
Julius & Soma: WHAT?!!!!!!!

lol sorry, I needed to do that nipaah~
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheouAegis on September 23, 2012, 02:05:32 AM
LoI wasn't in Romania. The ending clearly states that Mathias sought refuge in foreign lands. If he was in Romania to begin with, there's not a whole lot foreign about Wallachia.

Fuck I drank too much tonight. I hate being drunk.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: teddyj on September 30, 2012, 07:38:17 AM
Hi, I'm new here. I was just reading through this thread and though I haven't played LoI (only got into CV less then a year ago), I've seen the ending and I've interpret it differently. I did not see desires for revenge in Leon's words but rather concern and love for his friend Mattias as well as love and respect for Sara's last wish. While admitting that he defeated Walter with hatred in his heart, he did it not for revenge but to fulfill her wish: preventing others from suffering the same cursed fate. this is what I believe Leon passed down to his descendents: the desire to protect humanity from the cursed fate (with Dracula being the main focus). Just my two cents.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Lelygax on September 30, 2012, 07:49:10 AM
Hi, I'm new here. I was just reading through this thread and though I haven't played LoI (only got into CV less then a year ago), I've seen the ending and I've interpret it differently. I did not see desires for revenge in Leon's words but rather concern and love for his friend Mattias as well as love and respect for Sara's last wish. While admitting that he defeated Walter with hatred in his heart, he did it not for revenge but to fulfill her wish: preventing others from suffering the same cursed fate. this is what I believe Leon passed down to his descendents: the desire to protect humanity from the cursed fate (with Dracula being the main focus). Just my two cents.
Welcome teddyj, I dont finished LoI so I dont have seen the ending yet, but what you are saying here is really interesting, if someone that already played LoI until the end can kindly confirm that I would be happy, since I dont wanna to see the ending myself and spoil my future gameplay. :)
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: darkwzrd4 on October 01, 2012, 09:06:34 AM
Sorry guys, Leon's motives are of pure hatred.  While he does fight Mathias/Dracula, he does fight his most loyal minion (Death).  After the battle with Death, Leon tells Death to give Mathias a message which is as follows:

"You have become a cursed being and I will never forgive you.  This whip and my kinsmen will destroy you one day .  From this day on, the Belmont clan will hunt the night!!!"

It would seem that Leon's motives are pure revenge.  Though it is possible that over the generations, this personal grudge is forgotten and the motives for fighting Dracula become more selfless.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheouAegis on October 02, 2012, 05:20:45 PM
Or until Leon gets laid and settles down.

Face it, you can't stay bitter for very long when a cute girl is bouncing on your schlong.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Phoenix7786 on October 02, 2012, 06:14:59 PM
That's a, uh, rather interesting way to put it.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: darkwzrd4 on October 02, 2012, 06:41:42 PM
Or until Leon gets laid and settles down.

Face it, you can't stay bitter for very long when a cute girl is bouncing on your schlong.
I doubt it.  Considering that he was completely manipulated and ended up having to sacrifice someone he loved, I doubt he'd just mellow out that easily.  Especially considering that the one who manipulated him is someone he saw as a close friend.

The same could be said of Mathias.  Did he just move on when his wife died?  No.  He concocted that plan just to spite "God".
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Lelygax on October 02, 2012, 07:09:21 PM
I doubt it.  Considering that he was completely manipulated and ended up having to sacrifice someone he loved, I doubt he'd just mellow out that easily.  Especially considering that the one who manipulated him is someone he saw as a close friend.

The same could be said of Mathias.  Did he just move on when his wife died?  No.  He concocted that plan just to spite "God", someone he saw as a close friend.
Sorry but I cant resist this chance nippah~
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: teddyj on October 03, 2012, 07:17:01 AM
Sorry guys, Leon's motives are of pure hatred.  While he does fight Mathias/Dracula, he does fight his most loyal minion (Death).  After the battle with Death, Leon tells Death to give Mathias a message which is as follows:

"You have become a cursed being and I will never forgive you.  This whip and my kinsmen will destroy you one day .  From this day on, the Belmont clan will hunt the night!!!"

It would seem that Leon's motives are pure revenge.  Though it is possible that over the generations, this personal grudge is forgotten and the motives for fighting Dracula become more selfless.

I went a little too far when I said "concern" earlier, but as I said before, I do not see hatred in those lines (and I watched that scene when I made my first post). Anger and disappointment, yes. hatred, no. Leon's desire to avenge Sara ended with Walter's death. The first sentence doesn't even say anything about what happen to Sara and the fact that Leon was used as a pawn, but was focus on what Mathias did to himself. but like I also said before, I interpret the scenes differently.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheouAegis on October 03, 2012, 09:49:33 AM
I think everyone's desire (excdept the one person) to have Leon be all angsty and vindictive points to some personal inner grudges held by some of the people on these forums.  Face the fact: Leon was in his prime on the verge of being able to finally score some hot tail then BAM! He has to kill the girl who was ready to spread'em for him. Forget the revenge aspect, the dude was horny. Even if he was mad and bitter and grief-stricken, he was still horny. It wouldn't have been long before he found some other wench to bed down. It's only human nature. It's the way of gods to hold grudges for generation after generation after generation; it's the way of man to seek solace in a vagina (or man-love, if he's classic Grecian).
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheCruelAngel on October 03, 2012, 10:42:50 AM
Some fanart would have you believe that all the characters are classic Grecian.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Sumac on October 03, 2012, 02:18:27 PM
Quote
I think everyone's desire (excdept the one person) to have Leon be all angsty and vindictive points to some personal inner grudges held by some of the people on these forums. Face the fact: Leon was in his prime on the verge of being able to finally score some hot tail then BAM! He has to kill the girl who was ready to spread'em for him. Forget the revenge aspect, the dude was horny. Even if he was mad and bitter and grief-stricken, he was still horny. It wouldn't have been long before he found some other wench to bed down. It's only human nature. It's the way of gods to hold grudges for generation after generation after generation; it's the way of man to seek solace in a vagina (or man-love, if he's classic Grecian).
I usually don't like to use memes, but I think it's the time, when such action would be appropriate:
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2r7qbsp.jpg)
The first sentence deserved this especially.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Phoenix7786 on October 03, 2012, 02:28:20 PM
I think everyone's desire (excdept the one person) to have Leon be all angsty and vindictive points to some personal inner grudges held by some of the people on these forums.  Face the fact: Leon was in his prime on the verge of being able to finally score some hot tail then BAM! He has to kill the girl who was ready to spread'em for him. Forget the revenge aspect, the dude was horny. Even if he was mad and bitter and grief-stricken, he was still horny. It wouldn't have been long before he found some other wench to bed down. It's only human nature. It's the way of gods to hold grudges for generation after generation after generation; it's the way of man to seek solace in a vagina (or man-love, if he's classic Grecian).

Something tells me you are a fan of Lysistrata XD
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheouAegis on October 04, 2012, 05:32:41 PM
Haters gonna hate. You're all just in denial. I'll get my friend Carl Jung to lecture you all on this.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Phoenix7786 on October 04, 2012, 05:50:04 PM
Freud would like to ask you about your mother first XD
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheCruelAngel on October 05, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
Did someone say Jung Freud?

(http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/206/28095-jung_super.jpg)
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: X on October 05, 2012, 10:19:26 AM
Where did that anime pic come from?? It looks like an adult version of Naru Osaka from Sailor Moon!
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheCruelAngel on October 05, 2012, 10:57:30 AM
Where did that anime pic come from?? It looks like an adult version of Naru Osaka from Sailor Moon!

It comes from Gainax's best work they've ever done, Gunbuster! (Those who disagree have no appreciation for the 80's I tells ya!) The character's name is Jung Freud, hence further derailing the thread with off tangents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunbuster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunbuster)

Spoiler tags for an AMV since some scenes used are spoiler tastic, but they're brief and only if you notice them.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: uzo on October 05, 2012, 11:07:26 AM
Looks like a redhead Haman Karn.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheCruelAngel on October 05, 2012, 11:11:48 AM
Looks like a redhead Haman Karn.

You know Haman but don't know Jung? I don't know how to digest this information...
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Richter Belmondo on October 09, 2012, 09:04:25 AM
I will certainly be hated by all.. but i find the LOS Plot nice !


Just for this Line

You have become a cursed being and I will never forgive you. This whip and my kinsmen will destroy you someday. From this day on, the Belmont Clan will hunt the night.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Ratty on October 09, 2012, 02:26:56 PM
I will certainly be hated by all.. but i find the LOS Plot nice !


Just for this Line

You have become a cursed being and I will never forgive you. This whip and my kinsmen will destroy you someday. From this day on, the Belmont Clan will hunt the night.

"I'll Kill You AND THE NIGHT!"

.
.
.
(Couldn't resist.)
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Flame on October 09, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
I will certainly be hated by all.. but i find the LOS Plot nice !

LoI*
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: GuyStarwind on October 09, 2012, 07:05:42 PM
I will certainly be hated by all.. but i find the LOS Plot nice !


Just for this Line

You have become a cursed being and I will never forgive you. This whip and my kinsmen will destroy you someday. From this day on, the Belmont Clan will hunt the night.

I assume your talking about LoI and not LoS. If so you're not hated by me. I love the plot of LoI sure it could be improved a bit but what plot couldn't
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Richter Belmondo on October 09, 2012, 10:30:28 PM
I assume your talking about LoI and not LoS. If so you're not hated by me. I love the plot of LoI sure it could be improved a bit but what plot couldn't :)
    yep,  talking à bout lament of innocense. Just getting confused with all the news LOS.  I Agree with you, They were many others elements to tell in the story
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheCruelAngel on October 10, 2012, 08:48:45 AM
Yeah, I'd wager you'd be closer to being "hated by all" for enjoying the story in LoS instead.  ;D

Though all would never be possible since I can't imagine hating someone because they enjoyed the story in a game that I didn't enjoy, and I'm sure there are others around who feel the same way. Though I'm sure there are other characters around here who have you believe otherwise.   ;)
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Richter Belmondo on October 10, 2012, 09:17:01 AM
Yeah, I'd wager you'd be closer to being "hated by all" for enjoying the story in LoS instead.  ;D

Though all would never be possible since I can't imagine hating someone because they enjoyed the story in a game that I didn't enjoy, and I'm sure there are others around who feel the same way. Though I'm sure there are other characters around here who have you believe otherwise.   ;)

To be quick ,
i like the main story , with mathias etc... But Leon's design is not very good , the story take place in the middle age , and Leon is perfectly shaved with a sort of hair spray on the head.. no matter
I still prefer the old simon design , much more appropriate
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Mobius on October 10, 2012, 10:36:33 AM
Well, the look of some of the characters notwithstanding, the story itself worked. I was pleasantly surprised by where the plot went, and I really liked how the Vampire Killer was brought into creation. However, the big reveal at the end lacked the proper effect for me. To really sell the betrayal and ultimate tragedy of Leon, Mathias needed to be more involved in the plot. Seriously, over the course of the game I kind of forgot about him. Then he shows up at the end and he's like, "Oh hey Leon." And I'm like, "Oh, hey comrade mentioned in the intro. I was wondering when you actually were going to do something." That definitely made it a tad anticlimactic for me. Overall, the story wasn't bad. It just wasn't presented in the best way it could have been. In all honesty the presentation felt pretty lackluster to me.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: darkwzrd4 on October 10, 2012, 11:26:40 AM
Well, the look of some of the characters notwithstanding, the story itself worked. I was pleasantly surprised by where the plot went, and I really liked how the Vampire Killer was brought into creation. However, the big reveal at the end lacked the proper effect for me. To really sell the betrayal and ultimate tragedy of Leon, Mathias needed to be more involved in the plot. Seriously, over the course of the game I kind of forgot about him. Then he shows up at the end and he's like, "Oh hey Leon." And I'm like, "Oh, hey comrade mentioned in the intro. I was wondering when you actually were going to do something." That definitely made it a tad anticlimactic for me. Overall, the story wasn't bad. It just wasn't presented in the best way it could have been. In all honesty the presentation felt pretty lackluster to me.
Yeah, the idea was good, but the execution sucked. 


My thoughts of how it could have been done better:  They could have had both Mathias and Leon go to Walter's castle together to save Sara.  They would meet Rinaldo and Leon would receive the whip of alchemy.  Mathias would have brought his own specially made alchemy weapon with him.  Once inside the castle, Leon and Mathias would split up only to cross paths every so often at which point they would inform each other of what they've encountered.  In the end, Leon would have to sacrifice Sara to turn the whip of alchemy into the vampire killer.  Mathias would have disappeared by now or faked his death leaving Leon alone.  Once Leon defeats Walter, Mathias walks in and Death gives him Walter's soul.  At which point, Mathias reveals that he was behind everything blah blah blah.....The rest would be the same as the game we know.

What do you think?
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Grimlock78 on October 10, 2012, 11:48:04 AM
That scenario sounds somewhat like Harmony of dissonance but without Maxim being the ACTUAL enemy..just saying :P
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Mobius on October 10, 2012, 12:00:04 PM
Agreed. Igarashi-sama wouldn't have let the plot veer so close to Harmony's setup. However, I personally think it's a better scenario than what we got. In fact, it would really have delivered a payoff with much more resonance if you witnessed Mathias "killed" or giving up his life for you or possibly covering your flank during the final race to the final confrontation. Leon would then have had his friend's death on his conscience at that point, only to discover Mathias had been the mastermind behind everything. THEN it would have been a betrayal with some pathos. However, I feel that if that had been the case it would just have left me really dissatisfied that there was no physical battle with Mathias at the end knowing a sequel was never in the works.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Grimlock78 on October 10, 2012, 12:44:15 PM
Understood. :)
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Richter Belmondo on October 11, 2012, 03:00:05 AM
Agreed. Igarashi-sama wouldn't have let the plot veer so close to Harmony's setup. However, I personally think it's a better scenario than what we got. In fact, it would really have delivered a payoff with much more resonance if you witnessed Mathias "killed" or giving up his life for you or possibly covering your flank during the final race to the final confrontation. Leon would then have had his friend's death on his conscience at that point, only to discover Mathias had been the mastermind behind everything. THEN it would have been a betrayal with some pathos. However, I feel that if that had been the case it would just have left me really dissatisfied that there was no physical battle with Mathias at the end knowing a sequel was never in the works.
Exactly !  :D
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Lelygax on October 11, 2012, 07:02:41 AM
Im back!!!! Nippah~

This sugestions are much more interesting than what they did, what is sad.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Sumac on October 11, 2012, 08:59:45 AM
My idea, for LOI improvement, is that they could have presented events from the past of Mathias and Leon in the form of flashbacks.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Richter Belmondo on October 11, 2012, 09:03:15 AM
My idea, for LOI improvement, is that they could have presented events from the past of Mathias and Leon in the form of flashbacks.
AND a preview of Trevor's Battle !
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheCruelAngel on October 11, 2012, 09:10:21 AM
Another thing about LoI that bugged me (thinking back to parts I actually played) is Joachim. Here was this random vampire I found in a basement or whatever, who got sweet Kojima art, a playable scenario, but no real back story or anything given.

I guess there was some in depth info provided on Konami's JP site (http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Joachim_Armster (http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Joachim_Armster)) but this was never covered in the game. He just kind of went on a tirade, then started attacking me. I felt there could have been more development for this character in particular. But that could just because I liked his design and form of attacks (I had a D&D character who was similar to him too!).

AND a preview of Trevor's Battle !
Kind of like the glimpse of the future that Bardok saw of Goku facing Freeza?
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Grimlock78 on October 11, 2012, 09:22:37 AM
Maybe it should be a secret ending or something.....
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Richter Belmondo on October 11, 2012, 09:36:03 AM
Exactly , but much more like
'' The Belmont Clan will hunt the night !'' * BAM * Player see Trevor , Simon , Richter , wipping squelettons at differents times
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Sumac on October 12, 2012, 10:39:51 AM
Yeah, Joachim was strange - they put a lot of effort and personlaity into characetr who was basically random boss. It looked like there should be more to him.

Actually it goes for pretty much whole LOI cast. They are very colourful bunch of heroes and monsters (mostly monsters) and they had a lot of potential, that wasn't really used.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Ratty on October 12, 2012, 10:55:09 AM
Yeah, Joachim was strange - they put a lot of effort and personlaity into characetr who was basically random boss. It looked like there should be more to him.

Actually it goes for pretty much whole LOI cast. They are very colourful bunch of heroes and monsters (mostly monsters) and they had a lot of potential, that wasn't really used.

Yeah it's too bad they didn't add storysections/cutscenes for him but I guess CG ain't cheap. Would have been neat to see him have conversations in the SOTN textbox style, but then his mode only takes a few hours. Which reminds me I still need to beat the final boss with him so I can unlock Pumpkin Kid.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Sumac on October 13, 2012, 01:12:58 PM
Quote
Yeah it's too bad they didn't add storysections/cutscenes for him but I guess CG ain't cheap.
Cutscenes in LOI used game engine.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Ratty on October 13, 2012, 02:36:02 PM
Cutscenes in LOI used game engine.

Yeah and didn't look the best of it. But the that still took dev time. Perhaps they could have had time for more cutscenes etc. if they'd only had one alternate mode instead of two. But my guess is they knew the game would look better to consumers with 2 alternate characters.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Dark Nemesis on October 14, 2012, 01:58:00 AM
I have started playing it again, i'm about to finish it and i can say that while the scenario doesn't have the best execution, it could have more depth, the game has many details in stages designs, a very good portion of platforming, a good amount of puzzles and a very nice game play mechanic that it could use some improvements. Instead of CoD, i would love to play a LoI 2 or at least CoD could use the platforming and puzzle elements from the first.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Flame on October 14, 2012, 08:05:28 AM
LoI is definitely the best of the two PS2 games. Both in story and just actual gameplay. CoD just feels tacked on. The idea of a sort of devil alchemist who has a portion of Dracula's power being able to use it to defeat him is interesting, but just not fully realized in any way.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Sumac on October 14, 2012, 01:56:03 PM
Quote
But my guess is they knew the game would look better to consumers with 2 alternate characters.
Peronsally, I don't see nothing special in additional characters in Castlevania games. Mostly they feel like an afterthought. I'd prefer if developers spent more time on making main character gameplay better and more interesting, rather then spending their time on bonus characters.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Dark Nemesis on October 15, 2012, 01:40:18 AM
The whole idea for alternate characters, began with Rodo of Blood. I'm sure that most of the people would love to play with alternate characters a game, as i agree that they should also spent more time for the main story, but you see unlike other franchises like Resident Evil, they didn't have time and money. The only exception in the series is LoS.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: TheCruelAngel on October 15, 2012, 05:23:11 AM
And what ever happened to alt costumes? We had them in CV64, it would of been a nice throw back if LoI had some alt costumes as well. I mean hell, even Ms. Kojima made a sweet knight outfit for Leon that would of been awesome to play through with!
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Sumac on October 15, 2012, 08:30:52 AM
Quote
The whole idea for alternate characters, began with Rodo of Blood
It's not exactly like that. Despite all my disliking towards playable Maria, I must say she doesn't feel like an afterthought. The same goes for Eric in Bloodlines (though I don't dilsike him  ;D).
I meant additional characters like Maxim in HOD, Joachim in LOI e.t.c.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: X on October 15, 2012, 10:24:29 AM
What about Grant, Sypha and Alucard from CV 3? While they could be selected during in-game play they were still additional characters.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Dark Nemesis on October 15, 2012, 11:52:14 AM
Sure Joachim looks out of place, since he is just a boss.....unless they have put in him a story, like how he went to fight Walter and got imprisoned, like the sisters mode from PoR. Maxim you just could say that you've played his side, before he was consumed by the Draculas relics power and the Juste story never happened since it was prevented by Maxim, i don't know, i just like to play from the side of some other character the game, but if he doesn't have a story or at least something interesting to offer, then being or not being there is pretty much the same to me.

 Alternate costumes is an interesting idea, but not with silly designs. They could offer you even some kind of new power, but that is for those who like stuff like that i guess.

 Characters from CV3, they didn't required something special to unlock them, they depend on which path you'll chose and beating the area boss, so they weren't something special, they were meant to be playable from start of the game to the end of the game.
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: darkwzrd4 on October 15, 2012, 08:29:34 PM
Sure Joachim looks out of place, since he is just a boss.....unless they have put in him a story, like how he went to fight Walter and got imprisoned, like the sisters mode from PoR. Maxim you just could say that you've played his side, before he was consumed by the Draculas relics power and the Juste story never happened since it was prevented by Maxim, i don't know, i just like to play from the side of some other character the game, but if he doesn't have a story or at least something interesting to offer, then being or not being there is pretty much the same to me.

 Alternate costumes is an interesting idea, but not with silly designs. They could offer you even some kind of new power, but that is for those who like stuff like that i guess.

 Characters from CV3, they didn't required something special to unlock them, they depend on which path you'll chose and beating the area boss, so they weren't something special, they were meant to be playable from start of the game to the end of the game.
I'm with you.  Extra characters are only good when they add something to the overall story like the sisters in PoR. 
Title: Re: the Lament of Innocence origin story.....
Post by: Sumac on October 16, 2012, 01:54:40 PM
CV3 characters were part of the main game, unlike Joachim and others. As for thinking of story for the additional characters...it could be done, but I don't see benefit in it. I'd prefer something that have ties to the main storyline, instead meaningless addition.