Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => Hardcore Gaming 101 => Topic started by: KaZudra on January 30, 2014, 09:48:30 PM
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The Legend of Zelda is 28 years old with many titles in the franchise, but it wasn't until recently when Nintendo officially ties every (canon) title into a single split timeline.
The Zelda franchise has been beloved since day 1 and by god anyone who criticizes this thing is usually burned to the stake by the "hardcore" Zelda fans, but why?
Has The Legend of Zelda gotten stupid? Has Nintendo made some major flaws to hinder the enjoyment of the series? No, but it has gotten really stupid when trying to tie it all together. I'm going to share some reasons why LoZ has gotten pretty silly over the years...
15 generations of Zelda, This one became obvious as Ocarina of time points to Twilight Princess, 100 years in between each other leaving rough 2 to 3 generations in between, you get Grand-daughter Zelda who looks completely identical to her Grandmother except a Brunette and has pretty much all of the same traits, I know the Repetition is a regular thing with Nintendo but come on! when all you hear about this "royal family" is a line of Zelda's who all look alike and occasional nameless Kings, you can't help to think it's getting idiotic, a simple solution is have a few Queen Marys and Prince Johns to expose a larger family so the whole Zelda thing could be seen as Tradition, also would it kill anyone to make these Zeldas look more apart from each other? Skyward Sword did this with a Genuine feel and Fleshed out it's Zelda to make her unique from the others.
The Legend of Zelda should have stayed as a Legend, not a chronicle. To me, this franchise is still much more digestible in the point of view that the player is being told a story, a Legend of a Hero who saves the land, as time passes the player hears more stories from different people on to what happens next. A multiverse approach is also a more technical, more accurate term. Having a single timeline just seems stupid when given that Link 1's adventure had more beneficial items than Link 2, why settle for a master sword when you can get the job done much quicker with the four-sword? it raises the question of who keeps setting up all these dungeons and putting the Master Sword back? Does every Link have a duty to put everything back after every adventure?
The Strongest reason on to how this franchise has gone at least a little bonkers... The Fan-base, oh God the fan-base is cancer!
When a new game releases, They usually buy it on impluse, and the majority argues how it's never as good as Ocarina of Time which is better than sex apparently.
When a fanboy "versus" happens, Link is always decked out with every piece of equipment from every title as if all Links became one, Death-Battle shared some of that.
It's the mixture of overly defending the Franchise while simultaneously bitching about how not perfect it is just so they can say it's perfect later on (Wind Waker).
28 years later, has Nintendo be tarnishing this franchise? Honestly, I won't matter really, Nintendo is neither going to stop making the games nor experiment with the series to a further extent. I love/hate the series as some games I absolutely love and some I find reasons to dislike them, but would it really kill Nintendo to make something new and non-gimmicky happen to the franchise? a Change of Setting, Time Period, Role reversal, or even a game that doesn't feel like you've already done this a few hundred times?
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Short answer: No
Long answer: Nooooooooooooo
Reason? It's a videogame. It doesn't have to follow our universe's laws of genetics, or physics, or science. I could just point to the easy Simpsons retort: "A Wizard did it" to deflect any criticism. The things you're pointing out are so minuscule and yet you're making giant arguments about 'em. It's a game so it doesn't have to make sense.
I've played a game where a cosmic being asks another cosmic being to create stars by rolling things into a ball.
I've played a game where you create the universe only if you pass challenging tests involving cubes tumbling down a long corridor.
I've played a game where everything is trying to kill you, including what appear to be health items.
...games don't have to make perfect sense, they just have to be fun.
The Legend of Zelda games are fun to play.
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I do find some silly-ish things about the recent Zeldas then say the very early ones. And more often the not the sillyness detracts from what the early games portrayed which is unfortunate as the early games are my absolute favorite. I feel that the whole silly business started with OoT. When I first got into that game there was quite a bit of sillys going on that left me scratching my head. It wasn't integral to the story nor did it serve any useful purpose except to offer humor. But Zelda games do not need humor to survive as they are really good games on their own merit. The recently released timeline is also a silly matter as I strongly feel that the first four Zelda titles; LoZ, AoL, AlttP and LA take place in their own separate continuity and OoT reboots the franchise in a new continuity. One of the major sillyness that keeps on cropping up is the reuse of side characters from OoT. That is utterly ridiculous. The only ones who should reappear are Zelda, Link Impa and Ganon. That's it! Everyone else who's a side character, find a game and stay there!
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I wish theyd go back to more of the oldschool roots like in LttP and the original on NES. It started gettin too cutesy and kiddy after that. Still good games all around but they need to change formats to keep goin forward. I mean even tho they tried to age up in TP and even some in SS its not what needs to happen. I mean it needs to go somewhere between Skyrim and Dark Souls and stay there for 5-10 games before they go back to the kiddy cartoony stuff.
Also dont forget 4 swords is free on the nintendo store for the next few days!
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Twilight Princess went the realistic-ish route, and it's just not a memorable entry into the series.
Wind Waker, went the other way and it even got an HD remake, hehehehe.
I think the people want the cartoon Link. :3
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I don't know what games you guys are playing, but the Zelda series I've played all my life has never been what I would call serious even when they go for a more realistic style they still have tons of silliness. In reference to the early games, take into consideration that the game manual back then was part of the experience and they had chibi illustrations.
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none of the original zelda artwork was silly or kiddy. It looked like typical anime from that time period but thats cause it was a japanese game. I dont know how of it could be considered anything but serious tho
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The entire series is roughly based on a loop of a youth (often a literal child) being tasked to save a woman who is usually a deadset clone of her ancestors (disregarding the generation gaps involved, naturally), from a perpetual antagonist who shares the name with a long-dead king; but who is actually a thief (who apparently hasn't stolen much more than a magical geometric entity/item) who is also a pig-man. The youth, who is also of a seemingly eternal bloodline(even though he's always the last of the line), must brave hideous demons, alternate realities that can oftentimes be controlled with a simple household item, and oft-lethal traps and dungeons that older, more experienced, and better-equipped warriors might otherwise avoid. And yet the kid pulls it off every time.
Oh, and one time he turned into a pink bunny, because reasons. We also can't forget that he has a natural affinity for befriending anthromorphic creatures (especially fish-people who sell flippers), and can summon the AFLAC mascot as a method of Fast Travel.
So obviously this series takes place in the far future, and Link is a descendant of Al Gore, and Ganon is Manbearpig trying to forever eliminate the bloodline of his archenemy.
Yeah, I don't really take the Zelda series too seriously. Especially when it can be easily derailed into utter nonsense. All the serious aspects of the series, such as the creation, divine laws, and Goddess mythos (which could be interpreted as its own religion in the same wavelength as Tolkien's mythos), weren't officially created/recognized until the more recent installments.
It's like Jorge said; it's a game. It doesn't have to make sense in a real-world sense, even if it's BASED in a real-world setting.
And every fandom has its ridiculous members. The Zelda franchise is no exception, it just happens to be more vocalized by its more wacky members (subsequently meaning that part gets more attention), as is usually the case. Nothing new there.
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dont forget that all of that happened almost entirely in OoT... cept for the pink bunny part. And thats where the series really stayed afterward. Not only in design but also gameplay. Zelda 1 and 2 and in a lot of ways even LttP were way less cutesy/kiddy specially the first 2. I blame nintendos always gotta be kid friendly and rated E approach from the SNES days and forward for whats happened to ALL of their franchises
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Uh, I'm pretty sure Link has been a child, Zelda a fully grown woman, and Ganon a pigman thief in far more games than just Ocarina. The pink bunny was in Link to the Past (in which Link was around ten or so IIRC), and most everything else I listed has been part of the Zelda formula since the very beginning (barring the reality-changes, Link to the Past also set the bar in that regard with the Moon Pearl and Mirror).
And Nintendo's kept on the E rating because that's what they've been successful with so far. There's really nothing wrong with an E rating (especially since it's not like Nintendo's made any Silent Hills or God of Wars or Resident Evils in its time), either. Nintendo's kind of the Lawful Good of the gaming industries, after all.
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(http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com//wp-content/uploads/multi/2012/06/nintendo_power_zelda.jpg)
(http://www.zeldalegends.net/gallery/categories/The_Adventure_of_Link/Official_Art/Scenes/media/impalink2.jpg)
pretty sure Link wasnt a kid in zelda 1... Young maybe. A kid no
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But Link was only ten in the first Zelda game. Hyrule Historia has the Adventure of link occurring 6 years after the first when Link turns 16.
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Ten counts as a kid, Dale.
And even if the first game gets ruled out, he's around ten in ALTTP, he's a kid in Ocarina and Majora and I think Wind Waker IIRC.
EDIT: Dat old Princess Zelda art, though.
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Link is ten in the original Zelda and 16 in AoL, but in OoT he's far too young in my opinion. Somewhere around five or six I'd wager. Being ten is more realistic in that Link is at the age where he can properly use a sword and shield without being encumbered.
The rabbit aspect in AlttP was due to the Dark World's influence on Link. It reflected the good that was in his heart and thus he became a rabbit. Having the Moon pearl negates this effect. Ganon was a pig-like beast because that's what the Triforce reflected in his heart when he touched it and wished for absolute power. Thus he became the monster we're all familiar with.
Many of these so-called cutesy aspects have reasonable explanations behind them and they don't come out as being all that silly. But when we go into the latter games (OoT +) we have other types of silly elements that don't have the same solid explanations behind them and more often the not, come out as just being silly. Take the character 'Tingle' as one good example of this silliness. He just floats around in inflatable tights and no real solid explanation besides the fact that he's a cartographer. To me that's not what the Zelda series is known for portraying. I'd rather it stick to the classic European fantasy elements that the original games were famous for. Those games started the whole Zelda series and to me personally they properly reflect what The Legend of Zelda is all about.
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I dont care what an official timeline says that was made in 2011... after all the games had been out and they tried to make it all make sense. I dont believe that at the time zelda came out on the NES that Link was intended to be that young. And the artwork from the game goes along with that. In a few more years what if another metroid game comes out and they release a timeline that says Samus was spose to be 13 in the original game. Who would buy that? Same principle here. The original Zelda on NES was a fantasy adventure game firmly set in the standard medieval swords and sorcery setting. The 2nd game followed that pretty closely and expanded on it. It wasnt until LttP and ESPECIALLY OoT that it took the silly kiddy turns that its stuck to since.
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Except Link does look young in the original artwork.
Either that or Hobbit-ish what with the shortness.
I'm willing to say "Young" rather than "Short" since in Zelda II he's nice & teen-sized.
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They're fun to play though! And the kidsy, cutesy things are amusing at least...though not much else usually...and excluding Tingle. LttP is probably my favorite of them all, and I've really enjoyed the retake that game has gotten through A Link Between Worlds.
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Is it odd that I miss the Christian shield?
Also Zelda II freaking rocks 8)
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I dont care what an official timeline says that was made in 2011... after all the games had been out and they tried to make it all make sense. I dont believe that at the time zelda came out on the NES that Link was intended to be that young. And the artwork from the game goes along with that. In a few more years what if another metroid game comes out and they release a timeline that says Samus was spose to be 13 in the original game. Who would buy that? Same principle here. The original Zelda on NES was a fantasy adventure game firmly set in the standard medieval swords and sorcery setting. The 2nd game followed that pretty closely and expanded on it. It wasnt until LttP and ESPECIALLY OoT that it took the silly kiddy turns that its stuck to since.
You're right. How could I have been so blind. He wasn't ten in the first Zelda game he was "about twelve"*. And this information comes from Shigeru Miyamoto no less.
*see Iwata Asks, The legend of Zelda: Ocarina of time 3D, many Characters many Roles where Shigeru Miyamoto states "Link is a boy. In the first game, The Legend of Zelda, he was about 12 years old" http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/zelda-ocarina-of-time/4/1 (http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/zelda-ocarina-of-time/4/1)
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none of the original zelda artwork was silly or kiddy. It looked like typical anime from that time period but thats cause it was a japanese game. I dont know how of it could be considered anything but serious tho
I beg to differ.
http://legendsoflocalization.com/the-legend-of-zelda/manuals/ (http://legendsoflocalization.com/the-legend-of-zelda/manuals/)
http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/link-to-the-past/inst-us/z3manual-45-46.jpg (http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/link-to-the-past/inst-us/z3manual-45-46.jpg)
That snapdragon is frightening!
Look. The various Zelda games have differing levels of seriousness and silliness. I can buy the first two games were more serious, but you're not going to convince anyone that the series was ever intended to be on the same level as other epic high-fantasy works.
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Well, given that Western RPG settings were typically darker than the "typical anime from that time period," I would imagine that a poofy-haired Hobbit-sized elf kid would definitely look silly to people who were used to D&D, Lone Wolf, and stop-motion skeletons in armor.
Of course I wasn't around in the eighties, so if I'm way off base on this, someone kindly knock me on my ass.
EDIT:
In a few more years what if another metroid game comes out and they release a timeline that says Samus was spose to be 13 in the original game. Who would buy that?
Nobody with any sense, because that wouldn't make any. Even her endgame sprite is clearly fully physically developed. Unless she's suddenly got some Yoko Ritona vibe going on, I doubt Nintendo's going to say she was thirteen.
And you're forgetting one very simple thing. Cartoony styles typically tend to make just about anything look child-sized or child-orientented (TYPICALLY). It doesn't matter that that was the anime style of the period (and even if it did, I would just point out the main characters of even earlier animes of that style, such as Astro Boy or Gigantor), Link looks young in that artwork.
The first two didn't have the visual silliness vibes the future installments did, but perhaps that had more to do with hardware limitations rather than design aesthetics?
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Well, given that Western RPG settings were typically darker than the "typical anime from that time period," I would imagine that a poofy-haired Hobbit-sized elf kid would definitely look silly to people who were used to D&D, Lone Wolf, and stop-motion skeletons in armor.
Of course I wasn't around in the eighties, so if I'm way off base on this, someone kindly knock me on my ass.
No asskicking needed, you're correct ;)
The first two didn't have the visual silliness vibes the future installments did, but perhaps that had more to do with hardware limitations rather than design aesthetics?
I think so too. They had the chance to do that kind of silliness in Zelda 3, but I'm glad they didn't. And the game is better for the lacking of it.
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I agree with KaZiZ and several others here. Zelda has gotten rather silly. Only I don't mind the continuity issues brought on by forcing an overarching timeline on games that were never originally meant to have it. It's kinda like the forced continuity Iga brought on the CV series, except that Zelda's continuity is an absolute joke compared to CV's.
Anyway. The silliness issues I have with Zelda begin with Ocarina of Time. I love the first four Zeldas, but from OoT forward, the games just got too kiddy for me. I do think the silliness really started with aLttP, but that game seemed to strike a good balance between goofy interludes and a serious overall tone. OoT had its serious moments, and certain parts - like the Adult Link version of the Hyrule castle square - are borderline creepy, but the game overall seems to be targeted toward a much younger generation than the first four games.
I wonder if this is just my impression, since I grew up with the series and my age compared to the target audience changed as I grew older. I was just a kid when the earlier games came out, but when OoT was launched, I was a teenager who was just beginning to fixate on how good games used to be. But there does seem to be a divide between those gamers who grew up with Zelda's 1-4, and those who were first introduced to the series with OoT. I know there are those gamers who played the first game when it came out and have stuck with the series ever since, but they seem to be much fewer than those who gave up on the series after the early titles. You can say the early games were limited in their silliness by the limitations of the hardware, but early Castlevania games certainly didn't come off as games for kids.
In other news, I picked up A Link Between Worlds tonight and am enjoying it so far, though it seems a little too derivative of aLttP.
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Personally I don't mind the "silliness". It's like Dragon Quest, it doesn't take itself too seriously and I like that.
I actually picked up Skyrim and found it really difficult to enjoy, I've barely even touched it.
If Zelda became some serious gritty fantasy game I think I wouldn't be interested any more.
I still don't see how people can say the first game was more serious though, I mean, the dungeons were shaped like objects, there are hidden caves where the old man gets you to pay for the door you just blew open instead of giving you some nice secret, and an old woman who is too preoccupied with your wealth to give you the info she promised when you pay her. These are all playful maybe even silly gameplay elements, Shigeru Miyamoto himself has said "Until The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Link was a playful and childish character." I just don't see where this whole "Zelda became silly with OoT" thing is coming from.
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That reminds me: this whole thing about Link being 10 or 12 during the original Zelda was added in after the fact. There was nothing indicating his age at the time (at least as far as I knew). In fact, the game's story was very simple, just like that of most games of the time, so if the manual didn't state the character's age, and if you couldn't tell from the graphics, then it was up to your own interpretation. My six-year-old self figured Link was 18 or so when I first saw Zelda.
And by the way, I apologize for bumping this topic. I didn't realize until after my previous post that it was over a week since the last post.
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Shigeru Miyamoto himself has said "Until The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Link was a playful and childish character."
Sounds like Shigeru Miyamoto wasn't paying very close attention to the games he was creating. Maybe it is so in his mind, but in the games themselves it's completely the opposite. In the original four games I see no real evidence that Link is this playful, childish character he is describing. He on a mission to save Hyrule from Ganon at the request of Impa. Maybe that silliness was described in the back story of the characters, but it's not evident in the four games themselves. But OoT on the other hand is when I really started to notice the playful, childish character of Shigeru Miyamoto's Link. And you see it again in Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, Minish Cap, Four Swords, Spirit Tracks, Phantom, Hourglass, Oricle of Ages, Oricle of Seasons, Skyward Sword, and in A Link Between Worlds.
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Wait, so the first four games were all serious...
Does that include this one:
(http://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda04/Photographs/Photograph03.png)
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lol! That was the remake of the original Link's Awakening. The DX version had those photograph images but not when the game first came out (which was the one I was referring to ;)).
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lol! That was the remake of the original Link's Awakening. The DX version had those photograph images but not when the game first came out (which was the one I was referring to ;)).
:rollseyes: There is still plenty of silliness in Links awakening.
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The original Zelda on NES was a fantasy adventure game firmly set in the standard medieval swords and sorcery setting. The 2nd game followed that pretty closely and expanded on it. It wasnt until LttP and ESPECIALLY OoT that it took the silly kiddy turns that its stuck to since.
Actually the first game was originally going to have futuristic sci-fi elements with time travel. Miyamoto apparently revealed this relatively recently http://www.zeldadungeon.net/2012/11/the-triforce-was-originally-meant-to-be-chips/ (http://www.zeldadungeon.net/2012/11/the-triforce-was-originally-meant-to-be-chips/)
You could see some of the designs for futuristic sci-fi Princess Zelda in the Hyrule Historia
http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/47332/features/8-incredible-legend-of-zelda-facts/?page=6 (http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/47332/features/8-incredible-legend-of-zelda-facts/?page=6)
I'm with Jorge, "realism" in games is overrated. Silly fun rocks.
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You could see some of the designs for futuristic sci-fi Princess Zelda in the Hyrule Historia
Actually those designs can still be used. Just on Zelda in a far off future world of Hyrule where they are more technologically advanced then they currently are now.
:rollseyes: There is still plenty of silliness in Links awakening.
Personally I found the silliness to be far overshadowed by the tone that Link's Awakening had set. The whole dream scape was both alien and familiar, with enemies old and new. The story itself was a sad one and haunting at the same time. This becomes especially apparent when you discover the relief inside the southern Face Shrine and have that hauntingly sad tune playing in the background (the official manga plays on this theme of this story even more-so and it really tugs at your heart). The silly moments I find pass by without a second thought in this game, even with the add-on's in the DX version. Link's awakening is perhaps one of the deepest Zelda stories to ever be made and I"m glad it was.
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LA this song is the only song in the series that makes me cry
Ballad of the Windfish on Double Ocarina (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnTnhmwwUYs#)
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lol! That was the remake of the original Link's Awakening. The DX version had those photograph images but not when the game first came out (which was the one I was referring to ;)).
Hippo titties. All further arguments are invalid.