Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => Hardcore Gaming 101 => Topic started by: Dracula9 on April 06, 2014, 12:03:31 AM
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Figured I'd redo this one again. Because why not.
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/dmbhyfdztasml/Final_Fantasy_V_OST_Remastered (https://www.mediafire.com/folder/dmbhyfdztasml/Final_Fantasy_V_OST_Remastered)
Broke my own rule of going in OST list order, because I did my particular favorites first to decide whether I wanted to do it all or not. Oops.
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Incredible, I love FFV.
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Seems to me that some of these are out of tune, or there's a low-volume out-of-tune sound in there.
Also, the amount of Reverb is a bit too much.
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Says you.
Which ones are detuned? I remember the Battle theme was one of those last time I did this, but I ripped a decent chunk of these right from the SPCs. Might be the plugins in that case.
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I do say.
But obviously you don't need to take my advice. I mean, what do I know, right?
You ripped these from the SPC's, you say...
You know, if you're using something like a program (like spc2mid), know that it auto-detunes some/all of the resulting MIDI notes by default unless you uncheck PitchBending option for any one instrument sample remapping. However, when unchecking the Pitchbending you run into the problem that you lose all of the Modulation Envelopes as well, so if, say, a tune has a rocking wailing guitar that shifts pitch, you lose ALL of that.
I will repeat: If you used a ripping program, some or all of your notes are subject to be detuned (they may sound flat or sharp).
Why? The SPC chip programmers would often save the samples off-tune on purpose, and would have duplicate samples of the same instrument in sharp or flat tones or in alternate notes, depending on the need for the sample to be played in certain ways (it's why when you load up the SPC samples, you'd often hear apparent copies of the same samples). For example, if a sample were to be played on high notes, they would often flatten the sound (detune it so that it sounds flat) so that when played a couple of octaves up by being pitch-shifted by the chip software, it would sound in tune.
These were sample and note specific, so when translated to MIDI, you're gonna be using an on-tune (non-detuned, usually) sound to play the same note sequence with the same modulations... and that makes the sound... sound off-tune.
On top of that, sometimes channels that you think are empty really aren't, and have either a low-pitched noise or something else that maybe you're not noticing when playing back the MIDI through another device. It's possible your ears aren't picking it up, but mine are (could be experience or could be my inner pitch). I'm totally picking up one of those tones in the FFV battle theme, though I think what may be happening there is that there are multiple instances of off-key pitches creating a harmonic or an overtone that stands out.
Try this experiment so you can clearly hear what I'm talking about:
-load up your ripping program, and look for an SPC with an easy track... like the FFVI Title Music, and uncheck the "Pitch Shifting" for the instrument that maps to the Church Organ.
-save the file for the first 10 seconds or so (just long enough to play that one first note).
-do it again, but check the "Pitch Shifting" box. Save the MIDI as a different file.
-play the MIDI files back using a tuned instrument sample. You will note that the pitch will be off on one of the files, guaranteed. How much the pitch is off depends on what the developers intended the instrument to be doing.
Look, I've gone and done the work for you:
Original FFVI Intro Organ using Winamp and Alpha-II SPC Player (http://www.mediafire.com/listen/io7b17ugu3svtu0/ff6-101a-snes.wav) - 82.6hz
Pitch-Bending OFF FFVI Intro Organ - Soundfont (http://www.mediafire.com/listen/wpyrl1bkltx7x99/ff6-101a-pboff.wav) - 82.2hz
Pitch-Bending ON FFVI Intro Organ - Soundfont (http://www.mediafire.com/listen/8o6344nmxte73pi/ff6-101a-pbon.wav) - 82.9hz
The original (using Winamp and SPC plugin) is a modest, slightly sharp 82.6. An E2, according to my tuning fork programs, is in between 82.3hz and 82.4hz
One of these is being detuned only by the soundfont I'm using (and only by about 5 cents flat of a pitch, so it's virtually undetectable - at 82.3hz E2).
The other is being detuned by the soundfont as well as the SPC's original Note Modulation Envelope translated into MIDI (it's about 10-15 cents sharp off of the pitch, at 82.9hz, and that's AFTER the 5 cents from the soundfont - so on a perfect instrument, it'd be 20 cents sharp. That's almost one fifth of the tone!).
And that's just one instrument. You have to repeat that for every instrument sample as well as every note, since the higher notes may use the same sample but may modulate it differently.
This is why you can't just 'rip' the SPCs to MIDI outright. You have to have an understanding of what the developers were trying to do with a particular sample at a particular time in a tune, and then adjust the ripped MIDI to either nullify what they did so that it works with the MIDI standard (editing note modulation wheel values), or editing the samples you're using to play back the tunes so that when they are played, the detuning of the sample compensates for the detuning of the Modulation Wheel and they cancel each other out. Both are challenges to overcome.
It's a careful game of reverse-engineering. The note data as well as the sample data have to be analyzed, interpreted, and then a decision has to be made with regards to how to translate it into the new medium.
I give you lots of props for the attempt, but my ears are picking up this stuff and I can guarantee that others will also pick up on it. I know you're hearing it, too. I'm attempting to help you overcome it so that you put out even more high-quality stuff. You can hear how off-tune your track notes are by downloading (if you use Android) DaTuner Lite for your smartphone and just playing the note. The smartphone will listen and will show you how off the note is and the hz and cents (if on iPhone, I don't know what you would download, but I'm sure there's an equivalent).
An example of a glaringly off-tune harmony is in the FFV Battle theme you mentioned. On the third measure, as soon as the build-up is done, there is a synthesized strings section (they're synth strings in the original FFV) playing a 2nd melody to compliment the trumpet's main melody. Those strings are off starting on the first note and probably throughout the whole thing on your version.
And yes, there's a bit too much reverb (notice I said 'a bit too much', not 'way too much'). I'm not sure if you're using it to smoothen out the notes or to hide note imperfections, but it doesn't have to sound like you're in a cave for every tune. A 10% reverb is usually all you need, at best. It sounds like you're using more than that, though.
But yeah, it's only me talking. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.
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Note to self: never make a joke about music around Jorge ever again. Guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.
But yeah, actually;
The SPC chip programmers would often save the samples off-tune on purpose, and would have duplicate samples of the same instrument in sharp or flat tones or in alternate notes, depending on the need for the sample to be played in certain ways (it's why when you load up the SPC samples, you'd often hear apparent copies of the same samples). For example, if a sample were to be played on high notes, they would often flatten the sound (detune it so that it sounds flat) so that when played a couple of octaves up by being pitch-shifted by the chip software, it would sound in tune.
I did not know this; admittedly, I don't know the real intricacies of music theory and all the technicalities like you do. Thanks for the info, liek srsly. You know I'd still be an ape banging bones on rocks and calling it music if you weren't around to teach my ass this shit.
On the note (snicker) of the Pitchbending/Mod envelopes being lost in transit, would it work to do two conversions, one with the pitchbends checked and one without, and then copying over any existing mod-wheel values from one to the other? Or would there be note deficiencies in doing that?
And finally on the subject of the reverb issue; I normally use 15-20% for non-cavernous tunes. For those I use about 20-25% as needed. Some of the different plugins I use don't require any extra reverb, whereas some soundfonts don't allow me to use Fruity Soundfont Player's built-in reverb wheel, so I have to link them to an Insert channel and apply reverb by-channel. More often than not, they have an irritating habit of syncing together for super-reverb, as anyone can obviously tell here. I think I may have gone overboard on Fate in Haze, and I still don't know if I should use cave-level reverb on The Book of Sealings, since it's not really a "cave" tune, but the only room in the game it plays is quite large. I'm iffy there.
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Unrelated but disc one's finished. Maybe. Probably not.
http://www.mediafire.com/?dmbhyfdztasml (http://www.mediafire.com/?dmbhyfdztasml)
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You're still missing quite a few disc 1 tracks there, unless you're actually planning on skipping them.
Also...erm, you might want to ix-nay on the arcasm-say if he didn't take it too well the first time.
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If you're using dll VSTs, a really good reverb one is called "Glaceverb".
It lets you configure a few parameters for the reverb you want, including the dry and wet levels and size of the echo chamber.
Maybe if you use that one instead of the built-in one you may have a little more success tweaking the reverb and tailoring it to your sounds. :D
I have four plugins I have that I think are pretty amazing:
-Glaceverb (for Reverb)
-Nyquist (Equalizer)
-Blood Overdrive (for overdriving/grunging up my guitars)
-BlueCat Flanger (for flanging/wahwah)
Try those out when you have a chance.
EDIT: Forgot to answer the question about using the two tracks.
Ok, so in theory you can do what you're saying about recording a non-PitchBent and a pitchbent version, but you would have to do that with all pertinent instruments, so it adds lots of work. Thing is, the parts that are pitchbent that you do copy are gonna be subject to the detuning. I cannot guarantee the level of success doing this, mainly because every composer and sound engineer for the SNES did things slightly different. Some games are really good and you hardly have to do any work (Nintendo games with the basic sound set like Super Mario World, SimCity, etc. are pretty great, while if you try to do something with DraculaXX or Super Castlevania IV you'll hear the detuning baaaaadly).
Experiment and see what yields the best results. Often you might be better off doing the off-pitchbent version and modulate the sound yourself by adding the events such that they resemble what you're hearing in the pitchbent version, but not really copy/pasting the envelope data.
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You're still missing quite a few disc 1 tracks there, unless you're actually planning on skipping them.
Also...erm, you might want to ix-nay on the arcasm-say if he didn't take it too well the first time.
I'm going by the SPC track listing, which is probably incorrect.
As for Jorge, it's all good. He and I don't butt heads too often, and when we do it's usually over little things like this. If Jorge's really chewing me out, then I probably deserve it (perfect example, that Lords fiasco a while back that resulted in me going AWOL on the boards for a few weeks). Right, mate? :)
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Our friendship level has not been diminished by the content of this thread. :P
I like your work, that's why I help, even if it comes off as harsh at times.
I usually hit back hard when encountered with the 'says you' phrase, though. Hit back hard... with knowledge! :P
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I wouldn't ask anything less. That's why we love ya.
Anyway, reworked the Battle theme. I did it also using FFV's soundfont, just to make sure I had the notes right (also fixed the reverb issue...hopefully), but I've forgotten to copy it, so I can't upload it presently. However, I cheated and skipped ahead and did Battle with Gilgamesh, because I've finally found a series of percussive organs that sound really good together.
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/u06td44nj0850jc/1.7.The_Battle.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/listen/u06td44nj0850jc/1.7.The_Battle.mp3)
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/wckdaik28dt382w/2.03.Battle_with_Gilgamesh.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/listen/wckdaik28dt382w/2.03.Battle_with_Gilgamesh.mp3)
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(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3894388992/hDD463BCA/)
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Got a bunch more done. Disc II tracks finished up until Searching the Light. New tracks are labelled as "2.XX.Name" rather than "1.XX.Name."
https://www.mediafire.com/#dmbhyfdztasml (https://www.mediafire.com/#dmbhyfdztasml)
The Decisive Battle is proving difficult to work with, as it's tricky to get both good-sounding strings AND the intensity of the song to work well together. It's coming along well enough, but it's still being worked on. The Last Battle should be equally troublesome, but once those two are taken care of, the rest of the soundtrack will be a cakewalk. I'm pretty excited about Dear Friends, that track never gets enough love.
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Woot!
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Woot indeed. Soundtrack's done.
https://www.mediafire.com/#dmbhyfdztasml (https://www.mediafire.com/#dmbhyfdztasml)
Good self-birthday present, I think. :rollseyes:
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3suGfhnT2Sg#ws)
& Happy birthday!!