I'm going to avoid the actual point of this thread entirely, but instead note Lightning, who remained a pretty strong female lead through the XIII trilogy (with Sera taking the reigns in XIII-2, but Lightning's role was still pretty strong in terms of dominance/strength; protecting a literal goddess, c'mon, how badass is that?).
It wasn't until LR that she really took over as a genuinely dominant lead,(click to show/hide)
but I guess that can be knocked down since some of her Garbs are pretty sexualized.
I dunno. I feel like every time this topic shows up, the original point of there being a genuine lack of strong female leads in games being lost in a sea of people bickering about how sexualized they are (because really, if a chick's wearing nothing but a strap bikini, but has a really really really good story and role, I'm not really gonna give a shit about how she looks), which leads invariably to yet another argument about how dreadfully hypocritical third-wave feminism is, and those never end well.
Hence why I'm not really chiming in on that note.
I do think it's a bit of an issue with developers nowadays. They are almost completely out of touch with the popular characters that had emerged from the era of the late 80's. Samus is one of the strongest contenders of this awkward reversal from a strong-willed, independent ass-kicker to an obedient housewife with daddy issues. This is also reflected in how Samus looks. Before Metroid Fusion came out Samus' character was portrayed to be a warrior type and her bodily physique reflected that image. Not only was her suit large but so was she! Samus was a quintessential Amazon woman. Now we have this short, skinny, frail woman hiding in said suit. Metroid: Other M did a lot of damage to the character. If Gunpei Yokoi was still alive it's more then likely that the Samus we knew in our youth would still be portrayed to this day. I also believe it's a cultural thing as well, which unfortunately has eked it's way into our favorite heroines. in terms of how they dress--sexy or not--is of no consequence. The saying is; Do not judge a book by it's cover. This is especially true with men and women. Don't look at them from the outside, but let them prove themselves through their actions. From their true source inside themselves. But there are many people out there that stigmatize these scantly-dressed characters as being representatives of sex rather then what a woman should truly represent. And just how should a woman be truly represented on the outside?? Nobody, not even a woman representing all women can make such a perfectly flawed claim. And that's because as a people we are all unique, we are all different, and we are all individuals with our own thoughts and opinions about what it is to be a "proper" person. We cannot speak for the majority but only to ourselves because that's as far as it should ever go. If a game designer wants to have a sexy or plain woman hero in his or her game? Then let it be so.
This is also reflected in how Samus looks. Before Metroid Fusion came out Samus' character was portrayed to be a warrior type and her bodily physique reflected that image. Not only was her suit large but so was she! Samus was a quintessential Amazon woman.
There is a LOT to this topic. I'm not going to give the whole run down, but I do want to touch on a side of it I think hasn't really been brought up yet.
In some kind of weird polarization, theres actually a shit load of 'strong independant female characters' in Japanese media that are basically dressed like strippers. Its especially prevalent in those shows and games where every cast member is a female. You know the intention is to make them all basically each an example of a certain fetish or style for every man to pick out what they'd like to be with the most. Yet some of the character's writing (albeit very shallow at times) can lead to some of those characters having the traits people want strong female characters to have.
It makes you wonder, in regards to Japan specifically, how exactly do they see these things? Why bother writing characters that way if they're just sexual fetish avatars? Or do they see these things differently? Perhaps some sort of detachment from the design?
I don't really have an answer to offer for it. Just highlighting another face of the discussion.
I've often thought about putting something about this entire discussion on my developer's blog, but it's such a huge topic. I wouldn't know where to begin, nor think I have enough info to really come to some sort of useful conclusion or 'solution'.
Uh...were we playing the same games?
Sure, she's pretty tall, and looks to be toned in Super Metroid, but I'm not seeing what you described. The suit made up much of the bulk.
There is a LOT to this topic. I'm not going to give the whole run down, but I do want to touch on a side of it I think hasn't really been brought up yet.
In some kind of weird polarization, theres actually a shit load of 'strong independant female characters' in Japanese media that are basically dressed like strippers. Its especially prevalent in those shows and games where every cast member is a female. You know the intention is to make them all basically each an example of a certain fetish or style for every man to pick out what they'd like to be with the most. Yet some of the character's writing (albeit very shallow at times) can lead to some of those characters having the traits people want strong female characters to have.
It makes you wonder, in regards to Japan specifically, how exactly do they see these things? Why bother writing characters that way if they're just sexual fetish avatars? Or do they see these things differently? Perhaps some sort of detachment from the design?
I don't really have an answer to offer for it. Just highlighting another face of the discussion.
I've often thought about putting something about this entire discussion on my developer's blog, but it's such a huge topic. I wouldn't know where to begin, nor think I have enough info to really come to some sort of useful conclusion or 'solution'.
Is it wrong to hope that more thoughtful games would be created? I personally don't think so.
After all, Other M was made by the same man who had created Samus in the first place
The issue's not as clear cut as it's usually made out to be.
For one, it's only natural to have different sets of standards for men and for women.
And of course, from a historical standpoint, women have never really been associated with strength or aggressiveness.
The opposite is also true, for the same reasons: men don't really have the same presence as women in roles that require more subtle or seductive qualities. It's not that they don't, but it's not of the same kind. Hence the common denotations of 'masculine' and 'feminine' qualities.
You can't pretend that men and women are absolutely identical. So we have to replace them with something, in a sense, better. But how do we know that the new norms we've chosen are better? What do we base ourselves upon? Our culture? No, because we've just said that our cultural views are inaccurate. What, then? Scientific fact? But what's scientific about all this? Does science really have a criterion for what qualities are 'feminine' or 'masculine'? No, it doesn't. So, in essence, we have nothing to base ourselves upon. Strip away our cultural baggage, detach us from our age-old interactions with women, and we really haven't got any idea of what we're doing. We're just throwing shots in the dark.
The 3rd Birthday? I can't really speak about the plot, since it's not exactly very conventional. But I can tell you that the clothing damage that was implemented makes this a very Japanese game, and not in a very good way. I can promise you that clothes don't actually get damaged like that.
And yes, pretty much everything related to clothing damage, breast physics, panty shots, and overall fanservice could go down as misogynistic. But remember that the devs aren't the only perpetrators here: they're only including what their general fanbase would enjoy. Food for thought.
I think that you are generally confusing misogynistic with sexisim and or gender stereotyping though. Misogyny is quite literally the hated or distrust of women. Modern games tend to fall more in the realm of sexisim, and usually there by gender stereotyping.That's very possible. The terms tend to be used interchangeably these days, so I didn't really try to set them apart. If you took every mention of 'misogyny' in my post and replaced it by 'sexism', its meaning wouldn't be drastically changed.
To my knowledge (and I just looked this up) Hiroji Kiyotake was the man behind the Samus Aran character and has had nothing to do with the development of Other M.Yoshio Sakamoto, co-creator of Metroid, was director of Metroid: Other M.
I don't agree with this, nor do I see how it is "natural". Descriptive traits disassociated from literal sex are socially constructed.But that social construction must have come from somewhere, right? It's that simple: from the physical and behavioral differences between men and women, we've naturally learned to derive certain traits that we feel are more likely to be found in one or the other.
I also don't agree with this. This stated belief is an outdated one. It's not uncommon for both men and women to cross both the sex and gender line, especially today. Society is more moving towards a blending of the sexes, and a greying of the traits stereotypically associated with men and women.It's not a belief, it's an observation. The same general attributes are often perceived differently when applied to men or to women. It's what I had described earlier: for example, the 'dominant' and 'independent' attributes will tend to vary in connotation when applied to male or female archetypes.
Also, see my first point with regards to masculine and feminine qualities (ie: they don't actually exist).I disagree. Men and women are physically and behaviorally different, hence they're qualitatively different, hence there exist qualities inherent to one but not to the other, hence specifically masculine and feminine qualities exist. What these qualities are is subject to debate, of course, but not their existence in itself.
Uh, you've basically undone what you've just said in the first two paragraphs. But I guess this is your point? I understand what you're trying to do here, but you're basically contradicting yourself, as you first said this wasn't a clear cut issue. So replacing the norms makes no sense, nor is using a biased system as a basis. Associative personality traits are neutral, neither feminine nor masculine, I don't see what the problem here is. You're learning awfully close to "label" territory, and a fear restrictive mentality that personality traits needs to be defined by masculine or feminine in the first place. Either way, I don't think you've made a point here at all besides creating circular logic.I think you misunderstood me here. Think of my reasoning as a "what if" thought process; I went to the end of it, found a problem, and concluded that the original premise was itself problematic. Here's the point I was trying to get across: claiming that our societal gender norms are entirely inaccurate isn't a feasible solution in the long run, since once we discount our cultural standards as a viable frame of reference, we have no way of validating any new set of norms we could propose. In other words, our cultural norms are, unfortunately, the closest things we have to an objective basis for defining masculinity and feminity; take them away and you'll be, in a sense, left floating in space.
I've been hearing both sides of this same damn argument for years. The thing is, to me at least, the problem lies in people not being able to get over their own insecurities and hangups. It's a weird thing, that people act like a woman character can either be ONLY a sexual object, or ONLY a tough hero, but NEVER both. That sort of thinking implies that a strong, tough woman, can't also be hot and attractive, and, dare I say, even a bit "slutty" if she wants. Before anyone wants to get uppity about what I said, I suggest reading about Wendy O. Williams and watching a few of her concerts.
I've brought this up in another thread on here, but once again, the Japanese "objectify" men as well as women in alot of games. Simon Belmont's appearance in CV Judgement is a prime example. And ya know, it's not mentioned much in this context, but I wanna say something about Zangief from Street Fighter. People complain about female video game characters having giant tits, but, have you ever noticed the ENORMOUS size of the package those developers gave Zangief? I'm afraid it's gonna pop out of his little undies and slap me whenever I play that game. But, ya know, that's TOTALLY different, right?
(http://i.gyazo.com/7c4acb7c5376c3861c2a34a0fe800928.png)
Come on, mang. I ain't even trying to complain about anyone being treated unfairly. I have a happy sex life, don't believe there's some weird conspiracy against men, and don't believe there are armies of evil women coming to chop our nuts off. If my comments came off as sounding butthurt, or full of self-pity, I didn't mean to. Seriously, if ya knew me in real life, you'd know I'm a firm believer in EVERYONE learning to just be comfortable with what gets em off, and I SUPPORT both the male and female bodies being looked at as sexual objects in certain areas, like movies, games, etc. The only thing that gets on my nerves are people being uncomfortable about sexuality, even when it's over-the-top, and i mean people on both sides of the spectrum. Women who want to ban porn grate on my nerves just as equally as fat, fedora wearing neckbeards who think it's someone else's fault that they can't get laid.
In some kind of weird polarization, theres actually a shit load of 'strong independant female characters' in Japanese media that are basically dressed like strippers. Its especially prevalent in those shows and games where every cast member is a female. You know the intention is to make them all basically each an example of a certain fetish or style for every man to pick out what they'd like to be with the most. Yet some of the character's writing (albeit very shallow at times) can lead to some of those characters having the traits people want strong female characters to have.Well, the way i see it, some times, it's about a female character who is strong, but not afraid of her sexuality.
It makes you wonder, in regards to Japan specifically, how exactly do they see these things? Why bother writing characters that way if they're just sexual fetish avatars? Or do they see these things differently? Perhaps some sort of detachment from the design?
I've got nothing against a female being strong and sexy. I just have a hard time believing the character's looks are meant to be more than eye candy when the entire cast of characters is a fetish lineup.No doubt.
Shanoa, that is all.
Independent, Strong, and as Graceful as a swan.
She is like if lightning was well written. and she is a prime example of women in games done right, and she's a japanese character.
Shanoa, that is all.
Independent, Strong, and as Graceful as a swan.
She is like if lightning was well written. and she is a prime example of women in games done right, and she's a japanese character.
Now Let's take Bioware and DA:I
Claims that women are equal than men but resorts to the most one-dimensional writing that even Japanese developers are cringing.
Sophitia