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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Kaneda on September 20, 2014, 01:21:48 PM

Title: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on September 20, 2014, 01:21:48 PM
I'm not speaking in terms of continuity, although that can apply, too. How would you re-shape the Castlevania mythos to your ideal vision? Not as in gameplay, but within the fictional elements themselves.

For me:

*Bring Dracula more in line with Stoker's novel. So make him fit the description, have the same powers, and the same weaknesses. Which means no death by sunlight. I hate that it has become so engrained into the character. Well, he's out during daytime in CV64 if its the right time. But I digress.

*Piggy-backing onto the first bullet, have the games add more to the elements of the novel. He has three vampiresses in his castle. Maybe they're characters within CV story that get turned?

*Get rid of Alucard. The name, not the character. It's corny. Just let him be Adrian Fahrenheit. No Tepes. It's a title, not a surname.

*Elaborate on Frakenstein('s monster). He's in so many of the games, usually in a lab setting, but there's never much in the way of fleshing out the character. Also, address the fact that the Monster is being created centuries before Mary Shelley's novel takes place. Maybe having Dracula's books of alchemy somehow end up in the hands of Victor Frankenstein. Don't know.

*Keep Trevor as the first Belmont.

*Quincey Morris kills Dracula once and for all. He's not a Belmont. His name is spelled correctly.

*Incorporate more traditional vampire remedies/killing methods.

*Do away with the 100 year resurrection gimmick.

*Let SCV4 be a sequel like it is in the West. Simon's story needs proper closure after CV2's ending.

*Let Dracula X be a sequel to Rondo as it gives the impression of being so.

*Explore the origins of other vampires and monsters, i.e., Carmilla, Mummies, Medusa, etc.

*Fix the name translations to their intentional references. Fernandez instead of Belnades, Ricardo instead of Lecarde, Orlock instead of Olrox.

*Bring back and explore the Tower of Colbert. Ever since I first read about it in the VK manual, I've been intrigued. Where is it? What's there? Is it the tower where you confront Dracula?

*Incorporate loyal gypsy slaves of Dracula as villains for the Belmonts to confront. 

*Alucard is a vampire, not a dhampir. Dracula gives his unborn child's body as payment for his own immortality. So Alucard is "born" undead. He has a conscience, he loves and wants to do right, but his darker impulses forever haunt him.

That's all I can think of off-hand. I'll probably add more later. Your thoughts?


P.S. Sorry if this thread already exists. I haven't found one. Redirect me, if necessary.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: theANdROId on September 20, 2014, 05:26:23 PM
Interesting question...I'll have to give it some thought.  You make some good points, though I personally like "Alucard".  Maybe it is a little corny, but not so much that it can't be used.

Didn't someone (in another topic somewhere) say something about the name Alucard not being a Castlevania thing, but from the original story of Dracula?
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: crisis on September 20, 2014, 05:40:52 PM
dracula would be vlad tepes, nobody else

sonia would be reinstated, somewhere

alucard grant & sypha would play a role in curse of darkness

curse of darkness would take place 3 weeks/months after cviii, not 3 years

more insight into the Belmont family, as well as dracula & lisa's relationship

portrait of ruin never happened

or, if it did happen, incorporate more "military-esque" vibe in the story. brauner would be replaced by hitler, since hitler too was an aspiring artist. hitler & the nazis, wanting to gain advantage over the allies, resurrects draculas castle. little known fact is that some of hitler's top officials were into the occult & mysticism

dawn of sorrow never happened

Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: theplottwist on September 20, 2014, 05:58:08 PM
-Make Dracula Vlad Tepes, but still having a connection with the Belmonts (I really have no problem with him being Mathias, but I'd choose for him to be Vlad Tepes for it to coincide more with Bram Stoker).

-Make Vlad Tepes REALLY be more active into Lament of Innocence. Like, really more active as in "Vlad and Leon storm Water's castle together, but it ends up to be a trap set by Vlad himself". Have Vlad be playable.

-Reintroduce Sonia as the first human to face Dracula, but make her die, prompting Trevor to return to Wallachia and go after Dracula himself using the Vampire Killer.

-Reintroduce Haunted Castle's canon into the first Castlevania. Gameplay wise, make Simon travel the country before facing Dracula. (A Haunted Castle/Super Castlevania IV mix).

-Have Simon's revelation about the curse not be brought to him by a "mysterious woman ghost". Make him either notice this alone, introduce a new character or a ghost from a previous character.

-Harmony of Dissonance never happened.

-Richter fails against Dracula imediatelly, not after 6 years, prompting Alucard to come imediatelly. Have SotN be about Richter AND Alucard fighting inside the Castle, but having Alucard face Dracula at the end.

-Introduce Drolta Tzuentes clearly on Bloodlines. Have her be the second-to-last boss.

-I'd still keep Portrait of Ruin, but crisis' idea about Hitler is fucking awesome. Keep this Hitler plot.

-Dawn of Sorrow has Soma die, and a new Dark Lord arise. Have Julius and team deliver a third-age ass-kicking session.

-Have Circle of the Moon reintroduced. The Baldwin are a branch of the Belmonts, and their job is to keep Carmilla at bay using a Vampire Killer replica (The Hunter Whip), parallel to the Belmonts against Dracula. Sometimes, both could overlap. Nathan Graves could be the ancestor of the modern Morrises.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: theplottwist on September 20, 2014, 06:07:31 PM
Interesting question...I'll have to give it some thought.  You make some good points, though I personally like "Alucard".  Maybe it is a little corny, but not so much that it can't be used.

Didn't someone (in another topic somewhere) say something about the name Alucard not being a Castlevania thing, but from the original story of Dracula?

Yeah, "Alucard" comes from "Son of Dracula". If I'm not mistaken, it comes from a novel even before this movie. Konami has no grasps on anything.

Now, thinking about it, Konami has no grasp in almost nothing Castlevania-related! Most of the monsters are public-domain mythology. Dracula himself is not theirs. Many of the characters were based on real world personalities. Castlevania is a bunch of public-domain stuff strung together into an original IP :rollseyes:

EDIT: Sorry for the double-post! Forgot to click "Modify", and clicked "Reply" instead.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: GuyStarwind on September 20, 2014, 06:30:15 PM
Only thing I can think of is have the bad ending in DoS be the canon ending
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: JR on September 21, 2014, 12:35:09 AM
I'd have individual games and their accompanying sequels occupy their own separate timelines, instead of having one great big chronology of, "Drac gets his ass kicked, crawls back to whatever hole he was resurrected from," time and time again. It makes Dracula out to be somewhat of a joke. If it was done this way, you'd lose the long lineage of Belmonts, which would kind of suck, but I digress.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Munchy on September 21, 2014, 02:56:34 AM
-Expand the universe to have more supernatural villains/main baddies than just Dracula. LoS was a start, but that basically just switched Belmont out with Dracula, and Dracula out with Satan.

-Locate some games in other parts of the world to switch it up.

-Do something else with Futurevania (Aria of Sorrow on). There's a cult right? Make them an actual threat. And an actual cult with some scary fucked up people. Have the world shit out some other groups of demons now that Dracula's out of the picture. I dunno.

-I have this idea that Dracula's castle was always fucked up, that the land it was built on was somehow cursed and a perpetual breeding ground for some kind of demonic nonsense, making it an ideal place for necromancers or bad dudes to meet even before there was any kind of settlement there. Some games that take place before Dracula or Walter would be nifty.

-I'd like a game that reuses the dash mechanic from HoD, provided the enemies are just as agile or smart enough to give you a bad time regardless.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Nagumo on September 21, 2014, 05:37:21 AM
I would have CV1, 2, and 3 be its own self-contained trilogy as originally intended by Akamatsu and the other staff. Ralph/Christopher defeats Dracula for the first time and Simon seals him away forever 107 years later. That would require a few holes to be filled up in the IGA canon, which creates a perfect opportunity to come up with new games that actually fit.

Aside from that, I wouldn't change much about the IGAverse itself. Better gender diversity (which is non-existent, hah!) within the Belmont Clan would be nice.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on September 21, 2014, 06:14:55 AM
I'd retcon things around so that the adventure mentioned in Circle of the Moon's backstory was actually Order of Ecclesia. Shanoa would have been Nathan's mother, and both Morris and Nathan's father would be among the villagers with ties to the Belmonts.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on September 21, 2014, 07:35:59 AM
I would have CV1, 2, and 3 be its own self-contained trilogy as originally intended by Akamatsu and the other staff. Ralph/Christopher defeats Dracula for the first time and Simon seals him away forever 107 years later.

I'd never heard about that before. Point of reference?
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Nagumo on September 21, 2014, 08:45:52 AM
 It's a long story (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,6611.0.html).
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Belmontoya on September 21, 2014, 09:48:18 AM
I would change everything after Rondo of Blood.

SOTN would be released without Castlevania in the title and would be it's own timeline. Like Kid Dracula was. IGA would be in charge of these metriod-like games starring Alucard, the son of Dracula.

In place of SOTN, we would be given Castlevania 5 on the playstation that would be an open world game like Simon's Quest (not like metriod) based on the Super Castlevania 4 engine. The game would be made by the same team behind SCV4. In short, Masahiro Ueno and Kazumi Kitaue would be the dominant driving force behind Castlevania for a time, not IGA.

I think if the series would have been set on that path, everything that followed would have been better than what we got.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on September 21, 2014, 11:35:14 AM
Yeah, "Alucard" comes from "Son of Dracula". If I'm not mistaken, it comes from a novel even before this movie. Konami has no grasps on anything.

The idea of a vampire using an anagram of their original name for a new identity most likely originated from Carmilla. She does does it several times throughout the story. It's possible that the screenwriter for Son of Dracula was aware of that novel being an influence on Stoker's own work and made use of a few ideas.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Qwertyvania on September 21, 2014, 12:22:32 PM
These aren't exactly changes, but things that could be expanded on

The period before Trevor in which the Belmonts had been banished

Maybe some new Belmont that had gone to North America around the time of the pilgrims. There could be a vampire or monster of some sort there, and it could give more of a story connecting the Belmonts and the Morris' (is that Morris in plural? :P)

More of a story around the vampire killer being given to the Morris', as well as the Belmonts reclaiming the whip.

The Demon Castle War

Maybe something happens in 2094 when the vampire killer becomes 1,000 years old
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on September 21, 2014, 12:24:30 PM
Lament of Innocence: Lose the whole Dracula/Mathias connection entirely. Have Mathias instead be like Walter; A stepping stone to help strengthen the early Belmont family. To prepare them for when they must face the real Dracula.

Remake a new Legends game with Sonia reinstated. Have a backstory describing Vlad's rise and fall, his betrayal to Mathias (now King Mathias of Hungary), and stealing of the Crimson stone. Vlad loses his wife due to the Turks deceit and this act prompts Vlad to become Dracula. The Japanese backstory of legends would be used rather then the US version. Sonia is Trevor's mother and she trains her son to be the next hero of legend.

CV Resurrection would be made.

Curse of Darkness never happens. There are no devil forge masters nor any time travelers.

SCV4 would be made into a sequel of CV II.

Give CVII's game a further in-depth backstory

CotM would still be a Castlevania gaiden but Nathan Graves would actually be a Belmont descendant thus explaining why he's able to kill Dracula. His hunter whip is similar to the Vampirekiller, but not one and the same.

Only a Belmont by blood decent can slay the Count. No more wannabes.

The Vampirekiller whip is brought back as being a divine weapon of holy power rather then a whip of alchemy. And only a blood descendant of the Belmonts can wield it or it simply won't work.

Give Carmilla a more important Role in the CV universe. As a bloody rival to Dracula.

Death is one of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse and is not in any way a Shinigami.

PoR happens just like;
Quote
or, if it did happen, incorporate more "military-esque" vibe in the story. brauner would be replaced by hitler, since hitler too was an aspiring artist. hitler & the nazis, wanting to gain advantage over the allies, resurrects draculas castle. little known fact is that some of hitler's top officials were into the occult & mysticism
^^^
This.

Bram stoker's Dracula would be incorporated into the CV universe with some slight (but not major) changes.

The backstory of Bloodlines would be explained as to clear up the confusion of the Morris and Lecarde childrens' involvement at the climactic final struggle between Dracula and Quincy Morris.

The whole idea of why the Belmonts cannot touch the whip would be dropped entirely if it cannot be explained in any coherent or rational way.

Make the 1999 game.

Dawn of Sorrow never happens.

Have a far more gender neutral series with female Belmont leads.

Fully explain the 100 year cycle of Dracula's resurrections so as to avoid any further confusion. And also explain in detail about his premature resurrections.

Dracula himself created Castlevania through his own power.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on September 21, 2014, 03:00:43 PM
*Tie in the 64 games with Bloodlines. Renon mentions an approaching war. We know Elizabeth helps spark that conflict, but perhaps Renon has a hand in providing some resources. Chainsaw Frankenstein and the motorcycles the skeletons ride would be technology that he began developing and for whatever reason was not able to put them to use and they ended up falling into humanity's grasp.

*The stock of the whip is the Vampire Killer, not the entire whip. It's a unique weapon among the Belmonts in that it can work as various types of whips. Leather, morning star, etc. The Belmonts could screw on whatever attachment to the stock that fits the situation. It would explain how the Vampire Killer is passed down each generation but doesn't seem to be consistent with the lash. Simon has a leather whip, Richter has a morning star, Schneider goes back to a leather whip. Each warrior would have an attachment unique to their skills and personal preference.   
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: DarkPrinceAlucard on September 21, 2014, 03:36:51 PM
I'm pretty satisfied with what IGA gave us, so I won't have a big list like some of you.

But here are some things I would change

I would have Joachim play a larger role in LOI, maybe as a anti hero you control through parts of the game's story leading up to him taking on Leon and losing and thus passing his power on to the whip or something. Or more likely a unlockable story prequel mode for him that has a actual story and features his exploits to overthrow Walter.

I would make a remake of 2.5D remake CV3 and add the Devil Forgemater element into it as a new addition. Don't care what anyone says I actually liked the Devil Forgemaster concept and If a CV3 remake was ever made I think there could easily fit Issac in their as a boss (hector was said to have left Dracula before the game). And no fucken way it would be much of a problem in my opinion, after playing Resident Evil remake for the gamecube which was a remake for the original RE1 game I can honestly say that a remake with new added story elements can work just fine, in RE1 remake we got crimson heads and the Lisa Trevor additions, both things where not in the original game and worked just well.

I would have Curse of Darkness actually feature Alucard,Grant, and Sypha. I can understand Alcuard not being in it given his supposed sleep up until Symphony, but they could have at least included a secret "Alcuard Tomb" level or something actually showing Alucard asleep within the tomb. And there is no reason at all I see that Sypha and Grant could not be included. I just think that those 3 deserved to AT LEAST be featured in the game, even briefly, instead we didn't even get to hear their name in the game which was lame.

I would have Alcuard make a appearance in Order of Ecclesia, since the game did not take place that far after SOTN I felt it would have been a great idea to have him as a supporting and eventually unlockable character. That way we know what he was up to after the events of SOTN.

I would have never made Portrait of Ruin, did not like that game that much and felt it did not do much to explain WHY the belmonts can not wield the whip anymore.

I would make the 1999 game include a team of Alucard,Julius, and a descendant of Sypha, all of them playable from the get go, I would also have it feature MANY modern elements like cars,motorcycles,televisions,neon lights etc.

Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: darkwzrd4 on September 21, 2014, 05:19:15 PM
1) I'd change LoI. No Mathias. Sara gets kidnapped my Walter. Leon goes to rescue her like in the game. Basically, the only difference is no Mathiasand no Death. Just Leon trying to rescue Sara. Failing to rescue her and using her to complete the whip and slay Walter and vowing that his family will hunt the night to prevent others from suffering the same fate as Sara did. It is simply the origin of the Vampire Killer and the reason why the Belmonts become vampire hunters.

2) Dracula is Dracula. A very powerful and very evil vampire devoid of any humanity or human emotions. Just a prick out to make humanity suffer.

3) Change Alucard's origin. Instead of being conceived in love between Dracula and Lisa. He is the result of Dracula raping a human woman and leaving her human, alive and unknowingly pregnant (simply because Dracula is an evil prick who can't love and enjoys making humans suffer). Despite all this, Lisa loves her Dhampir son she names Adrian, but is murdered by Dracula's underlings on a raid of the town where she lives when Adrian is roughly 16 years old. Hating that he is the result of rape and that Dracula's (his own rapist father) forces murdered his mother (the one person who truly cared about Adrian), he decides that he would use the vampiric powers he has suppressed his whole live to become a vampire hunter and kill his father along with all other vampires (except for himself). At this time, he also begins calling himself Alucard to show that he opposes his father (yes, I know this is corny and that making him a product of rape is going a little too far, but I feel it works.)

4) Although allies, the Belmonts and Alucard don't completely trust each other and simply agree to stay out of each others way.

That's all I got so far.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: GuyStarwind on September 21, 2014, 06:00:32 PM
Speaking of Mathias and LoI I would keep him in but give him more depth. He's kinda a "it's all in the manual" character until the end. Maybe have him tell you things or sell you stuff instead of Rinaldo. Maybe even have him show up in random parts of the castle where he helps you out.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: JR on September 22, 2014, 01:30:30 AM
It's a long story (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,6611.0.html).

Hmm...don't know how I missed that thread, but that's a great idea. The first 3 games occupying their own canon would be something I'd love to see.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Chernabogue on September 22, 2014, 02:14:30 AM
The fanbase? LOLOLOLOLOL
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Tuxedo Mark on September 23, 2014, 08:40:17 PM
While I wouldn't remove any games from the canon (I'm all-inclusive), I think a good personal canon would be:

L -> DC -> A -> BR -> CV -> SQ -> HoDi -> RoB -> SotN -> OoE -> BL -> PoR -> 1999. The End.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 24, 2014, 03:22:28 AM
LOI:
-The Vampire Lord of the Castle's identity remains anonymous until the end of the game but is assumed it's Joachim
-Mathias was this vampire lord all along, Joachim was his puppet.
-Build up more of backstory as to the cruelty of what the vampire Lord is doing to the women he kidnaps.
-At the very end Sara has to die but not before giving birth to a child which is actually Mathias' demon seed (yes he forced Sara) rather than Leon's i.e. the Belmont bloodline is cursed by Mathias (like what Griffith did to Guts/Casca in Berserk) The child is normal but the bloodline is affected, to be revealed centuries later....** (i.e. part of Drac's energy housed within the Belmont bloodline until after 1999_
-Confirm that this Castle is in fact Castlevania, which is why it is encased in eternal night, for eternity (alteast until 1999)
-Make Elisabetha and Lisa the same character, it makes so much more sense. Dracula never loved anyone, he has lost all humanity.
-Mathias makes a pact with a fallen angel in order to obtain the Crimson Stone.
-Explain the existence of the missing two stones (ivory and emerald? who has them, are they used in the whip of alchemy's completion etc)
-Explain how the crimson stone resurrects Dracula (like he never really dies, his soul is just re-absorbed each time)

Legends/ Resurrection:
-Remake it, even if it isn't canon. But make it canon!

CVIII:
-Final Battle takes place in Castlevania. Forget Alucard, Trevor is Sonia's son.

Curse of Darkness:
Hectar is a descendant of Alucard (and some she Demon..)

SCV4:
This is the third and final time Simon faces Dracula. It is not a retelling of CV I

Simon's quest:
-Remake the game in 3d and have it make some god damn sense.
-Change Vrad Graveyard to VLAD Graveyard.
-Fix the endings ffs

POR/ Bloodlines:
-Show Bartley/ Barthory bathing in blood.
-Have the game actually take place around the World during WWII, story direction to be more like bloodlines where players traverse Europe in search of finding clue to slaying evil i.e. Dracula.
-Leave the Morris Family, and the ties back to Bram Stoker's novel intact, I believe it has its place.
-Canonically the Morris clan don't need the VK to slay Drac, but if they do the player gets the good ending, where Jonathan dies.
-Lecarde is Alucard's descendant and he and Johnny Morris are older which explains how they witnessed Quincy's death.
-Explain why the Belmonts can't touch the whip for 2 centuries. (purification prior to Julius destroying Drac)
-Leave Bloodline's original Japanese artwork as is.
-Final battle takes place in Castlevania.

Dracula XX:
This is a direct sequel to Rondo, Maria and Annette are older. Drac comes back fiercer than Rondo.

Sotn/ Alucard:
-Alucard is a byproduct of Dracula forcing his way into a human female (maybe a Belmont's daughter)
Torn between his Vampiric nature/ abilities and his discipline as a Vampire hunter. (or not, maybe just Elisabetha)
-Bad ending, Richter kills everyone and becomes lord of the Castle, Annette becomes his Vampiress.

OOE:
Confirm that the vessel housing Dracula's spirit (glowing red) is in fact the crimson stone.

LOD/ 64:
Canonise, it's awesome

1999/ Sorrow:
-make the 1999 game
-Soma is the by-product of Drac's seed remaining dormant within the bloodline.
-**Female Belmont gives birth to Soma c.2018 who will eventually be called back to the Castle sealed in the Solar eclipse. This curse had always stayed dormant in the Belmont bloodline, because effectively Drac had never been destroyed (due to the crimson stone) which recalls Mathias' violation of Sara.
-Aria happens with the above considered
-Dawn happens, except after the Menace is beaten, Celia absorbs the souls of the Menace and transforms into the real final boss. The final battle takes place in hell. mwuahahahaha.
-Soma gets to fight/ kill Celia if he wears Mina's talisman (the good ending)
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Tuxedo Mark on September 24, 2014, 07:55:48 AM
Morris' (is that Morris in plural? :P)

Morrises.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: GuyStarwind on September 24, 2014, 04:03:48 PM
I would also add more vampires. The 64 games did it right imo. They had vampires as normal enemies that turned into bats, bit you, and could turn you into a vampire (thus getting a game over of course).
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Mystic Myotis on September 24, 2014, 05:47:54 PM
Can I just re-list what I agree with, but with slight tweaks? XD
(click to show/hide)


LoI, as much as I like it, is a total ham-fest that ends with you having more questions than answers. The Ebony and Crimson stones need to be re-worked or at least better explained, as does what exactly Death is. I thought that the way the Vampire Killer was created was interesting but it needed to be executed a bit better.  Joachim and Mathias need to be re-worked.  Joachim's run should function story-wise like a prequel, or he should have more relevance in the main story.  Mathias either needs to be re-written as the King of Hungary who Vlad wrests the stones from, or he needs to outright switch places with Vlad for some reason and have it not be totally contrived.

No romance between Alucard and Sonia.  This doesn't fit with Alucard's belief that his bloodline is cursed and should disappear from the world as is indicated in SotN, and that would be a belief he would have held very deeply around Sonia's time.

CV3 has some bosses that are kind of 'meh' in that they are re-used.  I'd replace these with other figures from the series, maybe leave a reference to Isaac or Magnus in there.

Curse of Darkness needs to be a bit nicer to Trevor and Co.  As much as I like St. Germain, he doesn't really contribute anything to the story; improve that or scrap him.  Work Sypha and Grant into the story instead.  Hector could inquire about Alucard.  Death and Isaac working together should have put Trevor out of commission.  Before and after fighting Dracula, Hector should make parallels between what happened to Rosaly and what happened to Lisa.

The Adventure games don't have bad stories but they, like the Simon games, could use more meat to them.

I actually like HoD's story... but it's aesthetics could use a little work. Can we start by re-designing Juste, poor fellow? He looks out of place amongst the Belmonts.  Give him red hair like his grandfather or brown hair like his descendant at the very least.  The overall palette should be more subdued. As far as actual story goes, Death needs to not appear so much to taunt Juste like a derp and the script in general needs some series re-working.

I like the idea that Richter failed from the get-go and immediately becomes the lord of a false castle, and this surge of dark energy disturbs Alucard.  My only problem is that I can't figure out any way to work Maria into the story without it being... weirdly contrived, unless her character is changed completely (for example, if she is Richter and Annette's child and Alucard meets with them before even entering the castle).  Or, if Maria is an adult from the get-go, that would work.  If there's some 'romance' included and one assumes that the Lecarde clan are the result of it, then the Lecardes are adopted.  Period.  Alucard doesn't want biological children brought into this world.

I'd make CotM canon, but either CotM or HoD needs some story tweaks to make them less... samey.  Overall I think HoD has the stronger plot so I would tweak CotM more, tying it in with OoE and making this the beginning of the Morris clan.

CV64 games could also be made canon but like the other games, they could use some plot tweaks.

Portrait of Ruin needs to be much, much darker in every respect, especially considering that this is the game that takes place around WW2.  One of the two PCs needs to be bolstered emotionally by the other even though they're both cracking under the horror that is Castlevania.  This gives the partner dynamic more strength from a story perspective.  Graphics and character designs need serious tweaking to be in line with the story changes.  Nazis, maybe.  Not Hitler himself though.  So sick of Hitler in video games.

1999.  Make it exist.  FFS, Konami.  >:(

Aria of Sorrow was decent, but I would change some things.  Hammer should be working with Yoko, and be a Danasty descendant even if the surname is lost.  Yoko should meet with Soma more than once to make it more upsetting when she is taken out of commission.  Graham should be a little less obviously evil until he is seen stabbing Yoko, and Arikado should be made more ambiguous to the point where Yoko doesn't know who he is and can't vouch for his character.  Also, change Arikado's name.  It's stupid. Julius needs to be handled better as well; it's weird that he was just wandering around as an exorcist between 1999 and AoS. Did Alucard know he was alive?  Meh...

Dawn of Sorrow.  Make the cult not be completely pathetic.  Have there be other cultists in the game aside from the key members, or explain where all the other cultists went (all the dead in the final boss room, perhaps?).  Cut a lot of the light-hearted banter between characters, make them more focused/down to business or have them talk more about darker aspects, to make the game less derpy. Again, change the art style, and have one of the endings reveal who it was Alucard had looking after Mina.  Do NOT confirm which ending is 'canon.' Make Hammer playable in the bad ending.


In general: in the sorrow games, it's not clear who Alucard is working with, save that he belongs to some sort of organization which make be a government organization and that he trusted one of his associates with Mina's safety.  Hmm... In Curse of Darkness, Hector and Julia are implied to have set up a refuge for people like Hector; people of darkness who reject evil and have nowhere to go.  Between Symphony of the Night and 1999, I would have Alucard find this organization, and he works with them to find the prophesy and then protect the Belmont line until 1999.  This shadow organization would by this point be international and is, imo, a far more interesting group with story potential compared to the 'time travelers who aren't allowed to do anything' group. It also shows that things are not so terrible for defectors like Hector/Alucard as they were in the 1400's, as society has gotten a little less stake-happy over the centuries.

There are some other things but they've slipped my mind for the moment.  I'll throw them in if I remember them.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: James Belmont on September 25, 2014, 07:15:47 AM
- Stop calling him Vlad Tepes. Tepes was an insult coined by his enemies after he died. His name was Vlad Dracula. He even signed it Wladislaus Dragwlya. Anglicized, that's Vladislaus Dracula.

- Let him use his classic powers from the novel some more. Also, no more death by sunlight.

- Part of the plot of the novel involved the band of heroes searching for various coffins Dracula had hidden throughout England and destroying them. How the hell has this not been incorporated into a Castlevania game?

- Don't keep Dracula confined to one room. In keeping with the original novel, it'd be fun to play a game of cat-and-mouse with him.

- Don't be afraid to play with other Gothic characters. Give Frankenstein's Monster more to do, more characterization. Maybe toss in Melmoth the Wanderer, or the three witches from Macbeth.

- Whoever is in charge of designing the visuals needs to watch every Gothic Horror film that Mario Bava ever made. Follow it up with Corman's Poe cycle and the underrated Vincent Price historical horror, Witchfinder General.

- Speaking of Witchfinder General, Matthew Hopkins would be a great character to include in some capacity.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on September 25, 2014, 04:57:30 PM
- Stop calling him Vlad Tepes. Tepes was an insult coined by his enemies after he died. His name was Vlad Dracula. He even signed it Wladislaus Dragwlya. Anglicized, that's Vladislaus Dracula.

- Let him use his classic powers from the novel some more. Also, no more death by sunlight.

- Part of the plot of the novel involved the band of heroes searching for various coffins Dracula had hidden throughout England and destroying them. How the hell has this not been incorporated into a Castlevania game?

- Don't keep Dracula confined to one room. In keeping with the original novel, it'd be fun to play a game of cat-and-mouse with him.

- Don't be afraid to play with other Gothic characters. Give Frankenstein's Monster more to do, more characterization. Maybe toss in Melmoth the Wanderer, or the three witches from Macbeth.

- Whoever is in charge of designing the visuals needs to watch every Gothic Horror film that Mario Bava ever made. Follow it up with Corman's Poe cycle and the underrated Vincent Price historical horror, Witchfinder General.

- Speaking of Witchfinder General, Matthew Hopkins would be a great character to include in some capacity.

Where you have you been all my life?  8)
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on September 27, 2014, 08:02:18 AM
I'm not sure how many people have talked about how Super Castlevania should have stayed a sequel, but I've read the Japanese and Western manuals, and watched the Western intro, and I'm not sure if even the translators meant for it to be a sequel?

Every version of the story seems to paraphrase the story from Castlevania 1's manual, and it even says that Dracula's last appearance was 100 years ago. Everything all seems fine and dandy until it says "once again Simon must defeat Dracula". Does this mean Simon's over 100 in this game? Wouldn't 100 years after Simon's Quest mean a year after Symphony of the Night?

The only explanation I can think of for the "once again" thing is that they're suggesting that Simon's first battle against Dracula has become a legend told again and again, and not necessarily the with the same details each time. But even that sounds like a stretch to me.

The first in particular mentions how CV2 having a sequel would give it some closure, but I don't think it needs it. Of course, that's because I'm probably the only one who considers the bad ending, where Simon beats Dracula but still succumbs to the curse, to be canon.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on September 27, 2014, 09:12:01 AM
Lament of Innocence: Lose the whole Dracula/Mathias connection entirely. Have Mathias instead be like Walter; A stepping stone to help strengthen the early Belmont family. To prepare them for when they must face the real Dracula.

Remake a new Legends game with Sonia reinstated. Have a backstory describing Vlad's rise and fall, his betrayal to Mathias (now King Mathias of Hungary), and stealing of the Crimson stone. Vlad loses his wife due to the Turks deceit and this act prompts Vlad to become Dracula. The Japanese backstory of legends would be used rather then the US version. Sonia is Trevor's mother and she trains her son to be the next hero of legend.

CV Resurrection would be made.

Curse of Darkness never happens. There are no devil forge masters nor any time travelers.

SCV4 would be made into a sequel of CV II.

Give CVII's game a further in-depth backstory

I came up with this last year:
CotM would still be a Castlevania gaiden but Nathan Graves would actually be a Belmont descendant thus explaining why he's able to kill Dracula. His hunter whip is similar to the Vampirekiller, but not one and the same.

Only a Belmont by blood decent can slay the Count. No more wannabes.

The Vampirekiller whip is brought back as being a divine weapon of holy power rather then a whip of alchemy. And only a blood descendant of the Belmonts can wield it or it simply won't work.

Give Carmilla a more important Role in the CV universe. As a bloody rival to Dracula.

Death is one of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse and is not in any way a Shinigami.

PoR happens just like;^^^
This.

Bram stoker's Dracula would be incorporated into the CV universe with some slight (but not major) changes.

The backstory of Bloodlines would be explained as to clear up the confusion of the Morris and Lecarde childrens' involvement at the climactic final struggle between Dracula and Quincy Morris.

The whole idea of why the Belmonts cannot touch the whip would be dropped entirely if it cannot be explained in any coherent or rational way.

Make the 1999 game.

Dawn of Sorrow never happens.

Have a far more gender neutral series with female Belmont leads.

Fully explain the 100 year cycle of Dracula's resurrections so as to avoid any further confusion. And also explain in detail about his premature resurrections.

Dracula himself created Castlevania through his own power.

I totally agree with that bit about Lament and remaking Legends.
(Though I feel the need to remind people that Vlad III Dracula is the man's name so there is no "becoming" Dracula but I'm nitpicking semantics since I get what you mean.)

Here is an idea I came up with for a remake of LoI:
(excerpt from design document)

Vampire Killer: Lament of Innocence (1096 - Demon Castle is Born)

This will be a revision of LoI designed to have it fit better with the original trilogy and Bram Stoker's Dracula. It will be a new origin story for the Belmonts and the Vampire Killer with Mathias completely divorced conceptually from Dracula. Some plot points will be adapted from LoS to help better flesh out the circumstances and motivations of the characters involved in the story. The setting will remain the same but the date will be changed to 1096 so that it falls after the beginning of the first Crusade and jive better with history. Central to the plot will be the relationship between Leon, Mathias and the Church as well as the creation of Vampire Killer, the sub-weapons, the Dark Lord and the Demon Castle itself. Borrowing from LoS, Leon and Mathias will both be members of the Brotherhood of Light which is a secret knighthood founded by the Church. During the course of the game Leon will have a falling out with both Mathias and the Church viewing Sarah's death as a betrayal on both their parts. Speaking of Sarah, she will be reimagined as Leon's wife instead of his bride. They will already have children thus creating more of a bond between Vampire Killer and the Belmont line. This will lead to Leon renouncing the Church and vowing to hunt down all evil whether it be of god or the devil mirroring Dracula's own falling out with the Church centuries to come.

At first only Leon will be playable, with Mathias, Joachim and Pumpkin being unlockable after beating the game once. Leon will use both a sword and the whip of alchemy relying more on the whip as the game progresses. Unlike in previous games, the sub-weapons except for the throwing knife will have to be unlocked by finding them in the hub area of the castle and bringing them back to Rinaldo for him to transmute them into the traditional sub-weapons through alchemy. The necessary relics introduced in SotN will be given to the player by Rinaldo at the beginning of the game who will also explain how they work. Mathias will also use a sword as his main attack but instead of the whip and sub-weapons he will have access to a number of spells instead. His interaction with Rinaldo will be restricted to researching new spells and learning to transmute his sword into stronger forms. He will be the only bonus character to have story elements and he will lead the player to an alternate 'happy ending' depending on decisions made throughout the game.

A new mechanic I may toy with is having randomly generated portions of the castle to actually show that the physical building itself is coming to demonic life.


I feel Castlevania IV should stay what it is, a remake of CV1, if anything I'd say the endings in CV2 should be edited to be less ambiguous and reflect how the series actually played out after it was made. As for the game itself I'd change around the order of a couple of stages, upgrade the sub-weapons, and add a few more gimmicks for the player to do with the whip.


I mentioned this before in another thread...
I want to do a ROM hack of CotM to properly place it in the main timeline instead of being a dimensional gaiden.

1) Dracula will not appear as anything other than a coffin. Specifically the coffin shown at the beginning of the game should be replaced with the one shown in Order of Ecclesia. And the setting will change from Austria to Hungary.

2) Morris Baldwin will be renamed Baldwin Morris and he would be Quincy's grandfather. And Carmilla is replaced with Elizabeth Báthory who takes Baldwin for the same reason Carmilla originally did. Carmilla as a boss will remain unchanged except for any dialogue before the battle will be slightly altered.

3) Hugh Baldwin and Nathan Graves would become Hugh Morris and Nathan Morris respectively. They would now be actual brothers. Hugh is portrayed as resentful of his younger brother for being chosen to inherit Vampire Killer. During the course of the game Nathan tells Hugh about the cost of wielding the Vampire Killer and Hugh reveals that he already knew about it and that he wants to protect Nathan from that burden.

4) Instead of Elizabeth resurrecting Dracula for the umpteenth time, you will interrupt the ceremony and save Baldwin before it can be completed. Elizabeth goes into a rage and uses some of the Dark Lord's power and you fight her as that last boss.

5) The ending is suitably altered and after Elizabeth fades away the castle DOES NOT CRUMBLE. This is Elizabeth's castle in Hungary not Castlevania.
Back outside the castle Baldwin, Hugh, and Nathan appear along with Dracula's remains. Nathan will ask what they should do with Dracula's remains since they are to dangerous to leave behind and Baldwin suggest they take it to an organization he heard about that is searching for a way to destroy the Dark Lord (Ecclesia of course). Hugh tells Nathan he will get stronger to protect him so that he doesn't have to use the Vampire Killer again before he has a son of his own to pass it to (hinting at Quincy being Nathan's son). Nathan suggests they get going so they can all sail back home (hinting they are from the US) and he coughs at the end of his dialogue (hinting the whip is already killing him).
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on September 27, 2014, 11:10:53 AM
@SiFi270: There is the tombstone at the end of CV II that leads many fans of the series wanting (or thinking) SCV4 as a sequel. The tombstones shown in CV II and SCV4 are virtually identical. The best ending in CV II shows Dracula's hand rise up out of the grave indicating that he will return. So it's not just the line in the US intro "Once again Simon Belmont...", it is also the tombstone that lends to this comparison. I wouldn't mind at all if SCV4 was redone just slightly in order for it to fit as canon rather then a retelling of CV1. Besides both Slogra and Gaibon were introduced for the first time in SCV4 and we see them again later on in SotN.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on September 27, 2014, 11:18:59 AM
Super Castlevania IV is a sequel. It was localized to be one for the West and I have no qualms about regarding it as such. It's Japanese counterpart is a remake and I have no problem with stating that either. To use another example, the game Blaster Master is Blaster Master. The Japanese game is Meta Fight. The games are still working from the same base but have their own identities.

As far as I'm concerned, it's better as a sequel. This far down the road it doesn't look like Simon's story will be finished any more than we'll get that 1999 game.

Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on September 27, 2014, 11:20:19 AM
I've already explained why I don't think the ending where Dracula's hand pops out is canon, but the one where Simon dies. I don't blame either of you for not reading the entire post, though. It's pretty long-winded.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on September 27, 2014, 12:25:28 PM
On the contrary, I have read your post. And I've considered that possibility as well. But going per video game tradition, the best ending is almost always the canon one. Which, again, is nothing that hasn't already been said on here.

But still, I think it's a possibility.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on September 27, 2014, 01:21:05 PM
I'm sorry that was rude of me. I was all "you can't have read the whole thing because otherwise you'd agree with me without question".

On the subject, I'd also like to shift part of the timeline forward a little so that Legends takes place in 1476, Dracula's Curse takes place in 1502, Curse of Darkness takes place in 1505, and then everything from then on happens when the timeline says.

ALTHOUGH. There are other games in the series where the bad ending seems to be canon. Off the top of my head, Castlevania 64's bad ending would explain why Dracula's been alone in his castle for years by the start of Bram Stoker's novel: Reinhardt and Carrie defeated Gilles de Rais and his forces, but never figured out that Malus was the real Dracula. This could also mean that Carrie, having accepted the offer to marry him, ended up becoming one of the brides seen in the book.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on September 27, 2014, 01:31:57 PM
I'm sorry that was rude of me.

Not at all.

ALTHOUGH. There are other games in the series where the bad ending seems to be canon. Off the top of my head, Castlevania 64's bad ending would explain why Dracula's been alone in his castle for years by the start of Bram Stoker's novel: Reinhardt and Carrie defeated Gilles de Rais and his forces, but never figured out that Malus was the real Dracula. This could also mean that Carrie, having accepted the offer to marry him, ended up becoming one of the brides seen in the book.

I actually really like that idea. It's always rubbed me the wrong way that the novel informs that Dracula has been there for a long time and the games sort of diminish that by his frequent deaths and revivals. The tie-in with Carrie being a bride is a nice touch, too. She'd have to be older, but it otherwise checks off one of my changes. :)
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on September 27, 2014, 01:35:20 PM
Well of course she'd be older. After all, Malus wanted to marry her then and there, but she convinced him to wait until they'd grown up.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: James Belmont on September 27, 2014, 02:26:27 PM
Where you have you been all my life?  8)
Mostly just a lurker.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on September 27, 2014, 02:40:12 PM
About the "cat and mouse" thing you brought up in an earlier post... in the Bram Stoker novel, Van Helsing says that becoming a vampire gave Dracula a "child brain" (and that certainly fits with his portrayal in the series, where he seemed to be a much better schemer in life than afterwards), and the idea of trying to invade England has only recently occurred to him. Even if he did want to do it sooner, he'd still have to get around the whole "vampire invitation" malarkey, which is the entire reason he hired Jonathan Harker.

As for the sunlight thing... Did sunlight ever explicitly kill him in any game? He disappears as the sun rises in Dracula X and Portrait of Ruin, but by that point he's already been defeated, and the sun's just there to signify that the eternal night, a sign of his influence, is gone.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on September 27, 2014, 03:03:29 PM
SCV4 was not intended to be a sequel.
What the localizers do in a region outside the one a game was created is never canon unless unless it is retconned by the creators in a later game.
The gravestone is an homage, nothing more.
And the endings of CV2 are only evidence that the creators left the game open for a direct sequel.
Remember that at that point in the series most of the aspects of the overall story we take for granted now didn't exist.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on September 27, 2014, 05:30:47 PM
Quote
As for the sunlight thing... Did sunlight ever explicitly kill him in any game? He disappears as the sun rises in Dracula X and Portrait of Ruin, but by that point he's already been defeated, and the sun's just there to signify that the eternal night, a sign of his influence, is gone.

This was also done in SCV4's ending sequence. After you strike the final blow the sun breaks through the window and Dracula burns up into bats. Then after all the bats burn up except for one, the last bat floats to the ground and becomes stone; then disappears. Showing it might be a better visual explanation;

Super Castlevania 4 Ending (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sexB4Oz613Q#)
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on September 27, 2014, 10:47:45 PM
What the localizers do in a region outside the one a game was created is never canon unless unless it is retconned by the creators in a later game.

No one is debating about it being canon. It's not canon. But Konami of America released Super Castlevania IV as a sequel via localization. Japan intended it as a remake and its reflected as such within their own country. I think it's necessary to recognize both intentions for what they are. Whether sequel or remake, it's not canon and makes any conclusion within the overall story moot.  I'd use the same approach for Dracula X(X). Japan has it as a soft sequel, the West has it as a proxy for Rondo. Either way, it's not canon.

And do we have 100% certainty that it wasn't at some point going to be a sequel and then the designers just decided to take it the remake route? The overall design of the game seems so far removed from the original that I have a hard time believing that it wouldn't have been considered sequel material in blueprint. Vampire Killer and Chronicles both strongly resemble their progenitor with variations and additions to give them their own distinction. Haunted Castle doesn't, but how often do arcade games really resemble their console counterparts? I've never read anything saying that the tombstone is meant as an homage, explicit or otherwise.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Super Waffle on September 28, 2014, 02:04:21 AM
http://chichichichipndale.deviantart.com/art/Castlevania-SotN-Beside-Herself-484014433 (http://chichichichipndale.deviantart.com/art/Castlevania-SotN-Beside-Herself-484014433) is now canon.

I have no idea how the games after that would work, but there's that.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on September 28, 2014, 11:21:30 AM
And do we have 100% certainty that it wasn't at some point going to be a sequel and then the designers just decided to take it the remake route? The overall design of the game seems so far removed from the original that I have a hard time believing that it wouldn't have been considered sequel material in blueprint. Vampire Killer and Chronicles both strongly resemble their progenitor with variations and additions to give them their own distinction. Haunted Castle doesn't, but how often do arcade games really resemble their console counterparts? I've never read anything saying that the tombstone is meant as an homage, explicit or otherwise.

No. We don't know if it began as a new game and was left as a remake, but it wouldn't really matter, would it? What they decided on and released is what it is.
As for the state of SCV4 as a sequel in NA, I see the release in Japan as overriding whatever shinanigans were done by the US offices.
For me the original release version of anything trumps any localization.

BTW, how is Akuma-jou Dracula XX a "soft sequel"?
The manual translation is pretty much the same as the US version and it's the same text from the in-game intro.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Nagumo on September 28, 2014, 12:09:21 PM
You have to keep in mind that SCIV status of "remake" was made up to rationalise its position in canon after the fact. Before IGA there was no canon, everybody did whatever they wanted. My personal theory is that the story of the NES games, which formed a small cohesive canon by themselves, was basically finished, with no more holes to fill. CV3 told the origin story and CV2 was the definite conclusion. Therefore, they basically rebooted the storyline with SCIV. Simon and Dracula are back, only the setting is different. That's my personal view of the game.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on September 28, 2014, 01:37:35 PM
As for the state of SCV4 as a sequel in NA, I see the release in Japan as overriding whatever shinanigans were done by the US offices.
For me the original release version of anything trumps any localization.

That's fair enough and I tend to agree with that approach, as well. Especially when it ends up sounding better in its Japanese incarnation. Particularly with regards to their Western manuals. The Contra series immediately jumps to mind.

Poor Metal Gear and Snake's Revenge, reputations soiled by Ultra's manual writers. 
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on September 28, 2014, 11:38:30 PM
The worst localized manual I've ever seen is for Castlevania: The Adventure. There's just too much to quote. (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/manual-gb.htm)
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on September 29, 2014, 01:19:33 AM
Haha! That was a cheesy retro read  :)
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 29, 2014, 02:20:10 AM
The worst localized manual I've ever seen is for Castlevania: The Adventure. There's just too much to quote. (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/manual-gb.htm)

I lol'd at 'madman'... Mudman? :P
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on September 29, 2014, 04:05:56 PM
LONG ASS POST!!

You have to keep in mind that SCIV status of "remake" was made up to rationalise its position in canon after the fact. Before IGA there was no canon, everybody did whatever they wanted. My personal theory is that the story of the NES games, which formed a small cohesive canon by themselves, was basically finished, with no more holes to fill. CV3 told the origin story and CV2 was the definite conclusion. Therefore, they basically rebooted the storyline with SCIV. Simon and Dracula are back, only the setting is different. That's my personal view of the game.

While you *can* take the first three games like that, they most definitely left CV2 open to further sequels and there is no reason to exclude CVtA or it's sequel.

SCV4 is a remake; there is no doubt about it.
But just for clarity, let me explain what certain terms mean to me.
Port: a recreation of a game that was originally on a different platform with the exact same story, setting, and game play with minimal to no changes.
Remake: a revision of an earlier game that retains the majority of the original game play mechanics and retells the same story.
Reboot: a complete reimagining of an existing game series with minimal story elements and varying game play mechanics reused if any at all.

SCV4 was originally titled Akuma-jou Dracula when released in Japan.
It has nearly the same story in it's manual as Akuma-jou Dracula for FDS/FC and Akuma-jou Dracula for MSX.
The only difference being that Christopher Belmont and the details of his battle with Dracula are not mentioned at all.
The majority of the game play mechanics of the original game are still intact with numerous upgrades.
The setting has been greatly expanded with little left to resemble the original.

That fits my definition of a remake and it does not match a port or a reboot.
On a side note, CVX68k falls somewhere in between a port and a remake being partially a port of CV1 and of SCV4 simultaneously.
Then there is Haunted Castle which leans much more towards reboot than any of the other remakes.

Anyway, back to the issue of the original trilogy, there is another way to look at it:
CVtA -> CV1 -> CV2

Analysis:

*Akuma-jou Dracula (FDS/FC) manual states specifically that Dracula is resurrected every 100 years. Then it continues to state that the previous Belmont to defeat Dracula was Christopher.

*Akuma-jou Dracula (MSX) manual matches the story of the FDS/FC version and  further specifies that Dracula was sealed in the Tower of Colbert.

*Dracula 2: Noroi no Fuuin (FDS) manual states the game takes place 7 years after CV1. Simon is only specified to have dies in Ending 2. And I should also note that the original Japanese wording says that the people will pray for a young man like Simon will appear one day to fight evil. That is a very different tone from the localization that sounds like they are talking about a specific young man.

*Dracula Densetsu (GB) here is where the series first began to have problems. The story here states that Christopher is fighting not the Vampire Dracula, but the Sorcerer Dracula. IIRC it was stated in some interview or something that CVtA and CV3 were developed simultaneously. However, CVtA came out first.
The game itself, though fits in very nicely with the story set forth in the manual of CV1 for both FC & MSX. The only thing missing is the Tower of Colbert, which we can only assume is somewhere else and that the sealing takes place after CV2BR.

So there you have a very concise trilogy with no plot holes.
As I mentioned the first problems with first few games happens because of the contradiction between CVtA and CV3.

*Akuma-jou Densetsu (FC) manual and game intro both state that the game takes place in the 15th century. The manual states that the story takes place more than 100 years before Simon Belmont's time. Finally, it states that Dracula is already a vampire which retcons the story in the CVtA manual.

If Dracula became a vampire before the events of CV3 which is implicitly stated to take place more than 100 years before Simon's first battle with him, then he couldn't have been a non-vampire sorcerer 100 years later when he was resurrected in CVtA.
Mind you that all of this is before there was an official timeline or any concrete dates were specified in the games and their associated works.
As of CV3 we know that CV3 takes place the 1400's presumably some time after the real world death of Vlad III Dracula in 1476+.
Because it is stated in every manual to date that Dracula is resurrected every 100 years, CVtA must take place some time around 1576.
Thus, CV1 happens in 1676+ and CV2 7 years later in 1683+

My guess is that CVtA and CV3 were originally going to be two tellings of the same story but CV3 was then placed before CVtA some time during development.
Of course, with little direct evidence from beta versions of the game I can't say that for sure.
Really the only clue to this is that Trevor's real name is Ralph C. Belmont and both games state that Dracula was a human sorcerer before becoming a vampire.
However, the most plot hole free version of an original trilogy is definitely more CV1/CV2/CVtA than CV1/CV2/CV3.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: JR on September 30, 2014, 01:31:29 AM
Eh, this is probably a very unpopular opinion around these parts, but I wouldn't mind Bloodlines/PoR's ties with the Stoker novel to be severed. It's hard for me to imagine both of these occupying the same continuity, just because the CV franchise seems just so much more heavily steeped in fantasy...it makes the novel rather mundane in comparison.

On that note, I could take or leave CV Drac being Vlad Tepes, too. I don't hate the idea, but it doesn't really add much to the series for me, either. Maybe I'm weird?
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: JR on September 30, 2014, 01:34:39 AM
I lol'd at 'madman'... Mudman? :P

Hey...that's a pretty frightful dude you're talking about right there.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Nagumo on September 30, 2014, 02:22:59 AM
Incubus, you should read this thread.

It's a long story (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,6611.0.html).

I suppose the best visualization would be like this:

CV3 --> CV1 --> CV2 [The End]

Or
         
CVA --> CV:BR --> CV1 -->CV2 [The End]   

IGA later retconned this by making Trevor and Christopher two seperate people (see the source in the thread).           
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 30, 2014, 05:03:26 AM
Eh, this is probably a very unpopular opinion around these parts, but I wouldn't mind Bloodlines/PoR's ties with the Stoker novel to be severed. It's hard for me to imagine both of these occupying the same continuity, just because the CV franchise seems just so much more heavily steeped in fantasy...it makes the novel rather mundane in comparison.

On that note, I could take or leave CV Drac being Vlad Tepes, too. I don't hate the idea, but it doesn't really add much to the series for me, either. Maybe I'm weird?
I dislike the idea of removing Stoker's novel tbh. If you do this you may as well retcon Bloodlines, and I like Bloodlines along with its timeline placement. I do however, prefer Iga's idea that Alucard kills Dracula rather than Quincy. I think a manga or prologue would have been nice and sufficed to reaffirm the connection between novel<->game.

I like the idea of Vlad Tepes, but I prefer the idea of Mathias>Vlad. I don't even mind the idea that Mathias(Dracula) and Vlad could have been confused with the same historical figure, or in the CV timeline, just replace Vlad with him instead. He and Leon were like blood brothers, and the longest wars both start and end with blood.

The issue I take with Vlad in reality is that he was considered a national hero, despite his atrocities. People of Rumania still see it this way today, the crew he committed weren't as badly regarded as the western populous believes. Vlad is ruthless, Mathias is ruthless but much more underhanded, malicious and cunning imo.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on September 30, 2014, 01:54:35 PM
It's hard for me to imagine both of these occupying the same continuity, just because the CV franchise seems just so much more heavily steeped in fantasy...it makes the novel rather mundane in comparison.

It's possible that there were more supernatural elements in the novel than those explicitly mentioned. When Jonathan returns the England, the person who finds him says he was rambling about ghosts and witches and suchlike. Stoker also wrote Dracula's Guest, which in terms of supernatural occurences just gets weird. That's speculated to be an early first draft of the book or something along those lines.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on September 30, 2014, 02:19:43 PM
The novel is about Dracula moving to England with the intention of propagating the land with more vampires and taking it under his control. Taken within the context of Castlevania, Dracula seems like a telling of events that would lead to what we recognized as the usual CV story.

It would be like telling the story of how Dracula returns as a vampire and the steps he takes toward ruling Romania again. Castlevania stories always take place after the fact. Dracula's got an army and he's already conquered many lands with many more on the way.   
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on September 30, 2014, 09:24:09 PM
Incubus, you should read this thread.

I suppose the best visualization would be like this:

CV3 --> CV1 --> CV2 [The End]

Or
         
CVA --> CV:BR --> CV1 -->CV2 [The End]   

IGA later retconned this by making Trevor and Christopher two seperate people (see the source in the thread).           

I will. :3
But until then I still maintain that what was actually released in Japan was already trying to make a distinction between Ralph and Christopher from the get go despite their original intentions during development.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on October 01, 2014, 02:05:33 AM
Quote
I do however, prefer Iga's idea that Alucard kills Dracula rather than Quincy.

This would not make any sense from Bloodlines' point of view considering the manual states Quincy to be the one to slay him in 1897. I'm glad IGA never took such an unnecessary step or the CV universe would be even more ambiguous then it currently is. Quincy was made a Belmont by blood in CV Bloodlines' back story therefore he can kill Dracula. The only thing that really needs fleshing out is Quincy's son Jon, and Jon's friend Eric being present at the final confrontation. Alucard does not need to be there.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on October 01, 2014, 02:28:18 AM
That reminds me of another thing I'd change. John and Eric didn't see Quincy die. They'd have to be master stowaways to follow him to Transylvania, and they were, what, two years old?
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 01, 2014, 07:05:34 AM


This would not make any sense from Bloodlines' point of view considering the manual states Quincy to be the one to slay him in 1897. I'm glad IGA never took such an unnecessary step or the CV universe would be even more ambiguous then it currently is. Quincy was made a Belmont by blood in CV Bloodlines' back story therefore he can kill Dracula.

So this is a thread about what people would change about CV's universe...
Really have a zero carefactor what the manual says - this would also potentially change - as we're talking in hypotheticals.

While we're on hypotheticals, Stoker's novel mentions Quincey is not married and never mentions children, so:

Scenario A) Quincey's son, a 2 year old, witnesses the final battle between his father and Dracula alongside another 2 year old, at Castle Dracula by themselves... or

Scenario B) Alucard kills Dracula, Quincy survives for long enough to have offspring after the events of Dracula..

Scenario A makes no sense, retcons the description the author gives to Quincey including the fact he is unmarried with no children. The only thing going for it is to say Quincy already has a child, but this is disregarding what the book states. It really makes no sense to the game's backstory also.

Scenario B retcons the ending for another way Dracula was killed. If Quincey didn't die on the spot killing Dracula, this also means he is able to survive and have offspring, eliminates the need for 2 two year olds being unsupervised in the Transylvanian wilderness and gives an explanation as to how Dracula was killed.

Scenario A changes game and book, scenrario B changes book alone. Pick your poison.

Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on October 01, 2014, 10:19:28 AM
Quote
So this is a thread about what people would change about CV's universe...
Really have a zero carefactor what the manual says - this would also potentially change - as we're talking in hypotheticals.

Sorry about that zangetsu468 but it was not directed at you. IGA has made so many blunders that this would have just been another extra pound added to an already rickety, crumbling bridge. As for options (A) or (B) I had thought out an option (C) a while ago. Similar to (A) Quincy has his kid with him when he goes to England but leaves him with family friends; The Lecarde family. During the pursuit of Dracula, the Count's Gypsies are ordered to kidnap both John and Eric as leverage against the vampire hunters and are brought to the castle, where they witness the final showdown. Unlike IGA I did not need to make such a radical change to the story. It is largely the same and it works without outright interfering with what's already been established. So my poison is option (C).
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 01, 2014, 12:01:04 PM
In the earlier games what is said in the manual is very important since little to no story is presented in the game itself.
As I've said before, the original Japanese manual should always be taken as the "real" version since the localization teams have often added information in often misguided attempts to flesh out the story a bit.

In the case of Bloodlines they added that bit about John and Eric being present at Dracula's defeat which caused a wierd plot hole where there wasn't one to be begin with.
I can only presume that the localizer felt the need to explain how John and Eric would have known about what happened to Quincy and failed to take their ages into consideration.
Given John's lineage as a Belmont and the involvement of the Lecarde family with the Vampire Killer there's no need for a convoluted explanation for John's knowledge of the events surrounding his father's battle with Dracula. Besides the fact that they would have been told to prepare them for their responsibilities, there were 5 surviving eye witnesses most of which were friends of Quincey.

As for the inclusion of the book, Dracula, as part of Castlevania lore, you can already forget about the actual text of the book being cannon to CV.
If a game in the context of Castlevania were ever made out of the book it would most certainly be different from the original text.
The most obvious changes needed would be to make Quincey a father and perhaps a widower (to make him more virtuous when courting Lucy Westenra) and the inclusion of the Vampire Killer.
Other than that there are no other inconsistencies.
Quincey is the one who strikes the killing blow in the book and he does die from his injuries.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on October 01, 2014, 12:11:13 PM
I'm guessing he didn't use the Vampire Killer because of the whole "it drains your life if your last name isn't belmont" thing. And no mention of him being a widower isn't the same as him not being one. I'm sure he mentioned that to Lucy when proposing to her, not in a guilt-trippy way, but in a "I have a son who needs a mother" kind of way. We only hear about the proposal secondhand in a letter she writes, and she probably didn't feel it necessary to mention details like that to Mina.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 01, 2014, 12:53:05 PM
I'm guessing he didn't use the Vampire Killer because of the whole "it drains your life if your last name isn't belmont" thing.

That could be one rationalization, but if you're going to adapt "Dracula" to Castlevania then why wouldn't you have him wield it?
After all people complain that at first the series was very specific about the Vampire Killer being needed to kill Dracula and that in the later filler games any schmuck with a sword can do it.

So as long as we're discussing changes in the series, this is one point I would contend.
Only a Belmont with the Vampire Killer or someone wielding Dracula's own power (Alucard) can put him down for the 100 years.
So, in game play, I would make it so in CV3 Sypha and Grant can't damage Dracula when he reaches 1 HP.
Same for Maria in RoB and Charlotte in PoR.
Eric get's a pass since he's using the Alucard Spear. Maybe add some exposition about the spear being forged with Dracula's magic.
I've already explained how CotM should be rewritten and modified to remove Dracula and have it fit in with the timeline.
I don't think you could salvage CV64/LoD without a complete rewrite, a new time frame, and game play changes.


And no mention of him being a widower isn't the same as him not being one. I'm sure he mentioned that to Lucy when proposing to her, not in a guilt-trippy way, but in a "I have a son who needs a mother" kind of way. We only hear about the proposal secondhand in a letter she writes, and she probably didn't feel it necessary to mention details like that to Mina.

That is true enough, but it is definitely a point that should be stated for clarity and better consistency if nothing else.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on October 01, 2014, 01:56:01 PM
I have a theory of how Grant might be sort of related to the Belmonts but it's based on the assumption that Dracula was Vlad III and Legends was canon, making Alucard Trevor's father.

Grant's believed to be named after the Dinesti clan, who had connections to the Wallachian royal family during Vlad's reign. At one point in real history, Vlad ordered all his next-in-lines to be killed so they wouldn't take the throne from him.

My theory is that Grant's father was one of those next-in-lines, but he escaped and became a pirate, changing his name from Dinesti to Danasty because Castlevania characters aren't good at aliases. Isn't that right, Misters Zead and Arikado?
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: theplottwist on October 01, 2014, 06:05:01 PM
That could be one rationalization, but if you're going to adapt "Dracula" to Castlevania then why wouldn't you have him wield it?
After all people complain that at first the series was very specific about the Vampire Killer being needed to kill Dracula and that in the later filler games any schmuck with a sword can do it.

So as long as we're discussing changes in the series, this is one point I would contend.
Only a Belmont with the Vampire Killer or someone wielding Dracula's own power (Alucard) can put him down for the 100 years.

To be fair, canon Castlevanias are already like this. Only Belmonts and people wielding Dracula's power can defeat him.

Alucard is his son, Hector learned how to manipulate Dracula's darkness from Dracula himself, Eric has the Alucard Spear as you mentioned, Shanoa used Dominus. Sorry if I understood wrong.

I like the gameplay changes you proposed. It'd have the rules more strict and force the story into the gameplay.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 01, 2014, 07:03:19 PM
@ X if you're going to go with option C, I'd say follow Inccubus' logic of following the original Japanese manual, as in why do they have to be kidnapped at all?

@ Inccubus/SiFi One could use the logic that Quincey had the VK in his possession but he didn't use it because a) it would drain his life and b) Dracula being in his coffin, Quincey pulled out his Bowie knife for a short range kill.
In a strange twist of irony he still apparently dies, but if he did have offspring before/ after this could always be justified with logistics external to Stoker's text.

Ironic, that in POR you can actually kill Dracula without the VK. Technically if the player is skilled enough, this should be the good ending as Jonathan won't die. I've never tried this, or if I did I can't recall. Nonetheless I've thought about starting POR again. 
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on October 02, 2014, 10:15:33 AM
Quote
Ironic, that in POR you can actually kill Dracula without the VK. Technically if the player is skilled enough, this should be the good ending as Jonathan won't die. I've never tried this, or if I did I can't recall.

I can confirm this. It was either using the VK or the Holy claymore sword. Or a bit of both. And the reason why Jonathan can kill Dracula without the Vampirekiller? Belmont by blood. Only his sir name is different. Also the only way to get a bad ending in the game is if you fail to save Eric's daughters and instead fight them to the death.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 02, 2014, 07:39:56 PM
I can confirm this. It was either using the VK or the Holy claymore sword. Or a bit of both. And the reason why Jonathan can kill Dracula without the Vampirekiller? Belmont by blood. Only his sir name is different. Also the only way to get a bad ending in the game is if you fail to save Eric's daughters and instead fight them to the death.

But then is the ending exactly the same once you defeat Deathcula with or without the Vk?
I assumed it would be the same and the Belmont fight was optional.

Eh I might try the sisters fight to the death on the next runthrough, it wasn't overly easy on the hardest setting so I may have given it a miss and gone straight to the final battle.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: crisis on October 02, 2014, 08:22:03 PM
you can kill dracula using nothing but cream pies & paper airplanes.. im not kidding
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: theplottwist on October 02, 2014, 09:29:21 PM
And the reason why Jonathan can kill Dracula without the Vampirekiller? Belmont by blood. Only his sir name is different.

you can kill dracula using nothing but cream pies & paper airplanes.. im not kidding

This so freaking much. I don't get why people try to justify videogame mechanics with story. Jonathan can't "kill Dracula without the Vampire Killer because Belmont blood". He can do it because the developers can't prohibit the player of equipping the short sword and mowing Dracula down with it. besides, Belmont blood by itself doesn't guarantee you can attack Dracula. Belmont blood guarantees ONLY that you can wield the Vampire Killer. And even so, if you're not a Belmont even in surname, your life will be drained.

Besides all this, if I'm not mistaken, there IS a difference on the ending if you beat Dracula without unlocking the true power of the whip.

When you beat the game after unlocking the whip, it assumes you used the whip to beat Dracula, and unlocks the true ending. When you do it without unlocking it, *if I'm not mistaken* the ending comments on it, but the game's extras are not unlocked, signaling that canonically (independent of having beaten Dracula with a cream pie), Jonathan DID use the whip.

Again, I'm not sure. I'll have to replay the game myself to find out.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on October 02, 2014, 10:44:49 PM
But wasn't Nathan only able too beat Dracula because of his Belmont DNA? I mean, he was basically using a bootleg version of the Vampire Killer.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on October 02, 2014, 11:02:20 PM
Nathan Graves is not a Belmont. And there are no Belmonts in CotM. But, if somebody were to revisit CotM then they can (story-wise) make him a Belmont by blood as he does not have their sir name.

Quote
When you beat the game after unlocking the whip, it assumes you used the whip to beat Dracula, and unlocks the true ending. When you do it without unlocking it, *if I'm not mistaken* the ending comments on it, but the game's extras are not unlocked, signaling that canonically (independent of having beaten Dracula with a cream pie), Jonathan DID use the whip.

I have not tried this  ???  I must look into it!
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on October 02, 2014, 11:51:16 PM
I always assumed that Quincey Morris was unaware of being of Belmont blood, even before the game Portrait of Ruin. This would at least be consistent with the literary character, since he doesn't know anything about vampires, Dracula, etc. You could justify their conflict as being the Belmont destiny and they're naturally drawn to one another. It would also explain why he uses a Bowie knife instead of the Vampire Killer.

Going by the translation of the Japanese manual on Mr. P's site, the story doesn't mention anything about John and Eric being present for the final battle. Also, while the novel depicts Quincey as unmarried and trying to court Lucy, there's nothing to say that he wasn't widowed and/or had children in the past. Or John could be an illegitimate son. I'm less inclined to accept the latter since Stoker painted all the characters as being pure and virtuous and Quincey Morris as gentlemanly. A retcon like that being made for the sake of Castlevania would go against Quincey's characterization.

Then again, I'm not Konami.   
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 03, 2014, 05:45:18 AM
When you beat the game after unlocking the whip, it assumes you used the whip to beat Dracula, and unlocks the true ending. When you do it without unlocking it, *if I'm not mistaken* the ending comments on it, but the game's extras are not unlocked, signaling that canonically (independent of having beaten Dracula with a cream pie), Jonathan DID use the whip.

I'm trying for every ending on my next playthrough.

I always assumed that Quincey Morris was unaware of being of Belmont blood, even before the game Portrait of Ruin. This would at least be consistent with the literary character, since he doesn't know anything about vampires, Dracula, etc. You could justify their conflict as being the Belmont destiny and they're naturally drawn to one another. It would also explain why he uses a Bowie knife instead of the Vampire Killer.
I take issue with this as it's quite obvious Richter was the 'Whip's memory" and hence the last Belmont to wield the VK. It's part of the canon that the VK was passed to the Morris family, so by that logic the whip was passed after Richter. By the time it was passed to Quincey, he would have to at least know about the VK and something about the Belmonts/ his ancestry. How much he knows is another story. However, If Johnny Morris and Eric Lecarde know, then I would assume Quincey passed that knowledge on in some form (be it through journal entries like the Novel or to his partner; Johnny's mother).

Going by the translation of the Japanese manual on Mr. P's site, the story doesn't mention anything about John and Eric being present for the final battle. Also, while the novel depicts Quincey as unmarried and trying to court Lucy, there's nothing to say that he wasn't widowed and/or had children in the past. Or John could be an illegitimate son. I'm less inclined to accept the latter since Stoker painted all the characters as being pure and virtuous and Quincey Morris as gentlemanly. A retcon like that being made for the sake of Castlevania would go against Quincey's characterization.

Unless, prior to events of Dracula, Quincey had a child but never knew about it. This makes more sense to do with the novel, but it goes against the logic of the aforementioned point that Quincey would have known about the Belmonts/ VK to some extent. This complements the book saying little about his history aside from describing him as some kind of hunter.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on October 03, 2014, 07:24:58 AM
I think he knew about his destiny, mainly because he's more willing to accept the existence of vampires than Arthur or Dr. Seward, and also because of the anecdote he shares about him having to put one of his horses down after a bat drains its blood. Maybe he told that story as a (rather unflattering, but much more believable for the likes of Dr. Seward) allegory for how John's mother died?
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 03, 2014, 08:56:56 AM
I think he knew about his destiny, mainly because he's more willing to accept the existence of vampires than Arthur or Dr. Seward, and also because of the anecdote he shares about him having to put one of his horses down after a bat drains its blood.

Agreed, aside from Van Helsing and his knowledge of the esoteric ('the night') Quincey is definitely the most adept at hunting and believes and understands when it comes to the supernatural.

I actually had this thought from ages ago. In the last chapter of the book, Mina's journal entry notes that  her and Jonathan Harker had a son and called him Quincey. Given the events of the novel and its integration to the Castlevania universe, I just never believed Quincey had a son until after the events of the book (even though it says he died by too many injuries inflicted). My thought was always that Quincey named his first born Jonathan after Harker, the same way Jonathan/ Mina did with their first born after him. Granted Jonathan is a common name, but I just always believed this. 
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 03, 2014, 02:40:56 PM
This so freaking much. I don't get why people try to justify videogame mechanics with story. Jonathan can't "kill Dracula without the Vampire Killer because Belmont blood". He can do it because the developers can't prohibit the player of equipping the short sword and mowing Dracula down with it. besides, Belmont blood by itself doesn't guarantee you can attack Dracula. Belmont blood guarantees ONLY that you can wield the Vampire Killer. And even so, if you're not a Belmont even in surname, your life will be drained.

While it's true that game play doesn't necessarily have a 1:1 ratio to the story, the fact of the matter is that the developers could have prohibited the player in any way they chose. They probably didn't because they likely thought that it would be less fun for the player.
Personally, I prefer that the game play reflect the story as closely as possible. It eliminates exactly this kind of discussion.
All the scenarios that are not part of the story should be relegated to replays or non-story modes.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 03, 2014, 10:00:23 PM
While it's true that game play doesn't necessarily have a 1:1 ratio to the story, the fact of the matter is that the developers could have prohibited the player in any way they chose. They probably didn't because they likely thought that it would be less fun for the player.
Personally, I prefer that the game play reflect the story as closely as possible. It eliminates exactly this kind of discussion.
All the scenarios that are not part of the story should be relegated to replays or non-story modes.

While I agree that story modes should reflect plot events, I do not see the point of a game that allows you to collect so many items then strip you of the ability to do things like use those items on bosses. This is too restrictive for the nature of game. However, the likes of Zelda OOT and Castlevania OOE got it right for the final boss fight (not counting glitches) i.e. the player has to use a weapon to deliver the final blow in order to destroy the final boss. This works better than restricting the player imo. 
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: GuyStarwind on October 04, 2014, 12:33:59 AM
I agree with being able to use the weapons the game gives to fight any of the enemies but having a paper airplane kill the dark lord of Castlevania is too much. So, yeah have a weapon deliver the final blow would be the best choice in this situation. 
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 04, 2014, 11:31:01 AM
While I agree that story modes should reflect plot events, I do not see the point of a game that allows you to collect so many items then strip you of the ability to do things like use those items on bosses. This is too restrictive for the nature of game. However, the likes of Zelda OOT and Castlevania OOE got it right for the final boss fight (not counting glitches) i.e. the player has to use a weapon to deliver the final blow in order to destroy the final boss. This works better than restricting the player imo.

Well I'm not suggesting the restriction be on "bosses", just the relevant ones.
As far as I'm concerned regardless of whatever options the game gives the player, vampires should be very hard to kill since they are traditionally only vulnerable to specific things. (Maybe that's why there are hardly ever more than 2 vampires in any given Castlevania?)
Certainly it would make for a more robust game play experience if you actually had to worry about using silver weapons on were-beasts for example.
As for Dracula, I said he should have to be KILLED either by the Vampire Killer or his own power.
That is not to say that you can't beat him to within an inch of his un-life with a rubber duck if your hero has that kind raw power.
The way this Dracula is presented I doubt even traditional vampire slaying tactics would work.
But forcing the final blow to come from a specific character or weapon isn't that big a restriction for the final boss.
...
As long as they don't pull that Dawn of Sorrow BS about bosses coming back with 50% HP if you fail to seal them.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 05, 2014, 08:57:07 AM
That's what I was saying, the final blow to the final boss.

I think the whole silver to more heavily injure werebeasts is slightly archaic though (LOZ even used this to beat Ganon) as it comes from the notion of silver helping to purify one's blood i.e. bad for demons... Even though I do appreciate the esoteric-ness of this, we're using a whip to kill The Lord of Darkness so I think those sorts of things make for nice additions, but not for  necessities. Technically the VK hunts the night which is anything demon related.
In Sotn I thought it was cool that Mirror Mail makes Medusa retreat rather than advance. but I also think that too much of this takes the fun out of the game and makes you have to stop-start in order to either use the right item or find the right item to use in your inventory. It should be more like if you're intelligent enough, you will be rewarded.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 05, 2014, 04:42:15 PM
Seems like a bit of a nit pick to be honest. SotN isn't a pure action game so having to go into your inventory sometimes is going to happen.
Think of it this way, your intelligence is rewarded if you figure out the correct weapons to use ahead of time by giving you an uninterrupted battle.
I wouldn't call the use of silver on werebeasts archaic, it's simply the lore associated with them.
Not having it makes them much less of a threat. And I for one would prefer that a werewolf be an actual threat instead of a random enemy that is only a werewolf as a set piece.

Correction, the Belmont's hunt the night. The Vampire Killer does what it does because of the soul bonded to it.
I see it like this, the alchemical process that bonded Sara's soul to the whip used her hatred of Walter and then Mathias as a source of power.
So any being perceived as being associated with Mathias/vampires will be vulnerable to the whip.
That's why it's affective against Death, which LoI is keen to point out is divine and thus not a demon.
In fact, most of the enemies you fight in any given Castlevania game are not demonic at all.
And besides that, the whip is specifically designed to slay vampires, not demons.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 08, 2014, 02:30:26 AM
Seems like a bit of a nit pick to be honest. SotN isn't a pure action game so having to go into your inventory sometimes is going to happen.
Think of it this way, your intelligence is rewarded if you figure out the correct weapons to use ahead of time by giving you an uninterrupted battle.

There are ways around this, allowing certain sets of weapons, items or glyphs for example to be saved and shuffled through without accessing inventory. Of course you have to access it sometimes, and it's part of what I liked about Sotn, but more as a one off game. Generally I think Castlevania is better at being faster paced with its gameplay.

I wouldn't call the use of silver on werebeasts archaic, it's simply the lore associated with them.
Not having it makes them much less of a threat. And I for one would prefer that a werewolf be an actual threat instead of a random enemy that is only a werewolf as a set piece.
Each to his own. The oldschool CV's never had this but compensated for it in other ways i.e. the cross has the best range, axe hits enemies and objects you could never hit otherwise, and holy water raped enemies on the ground.

Correction, the Belmont's hunt the night. The Vampire Killer does what it does because of the soul bonded to it.
I see it like this, the alchemical process that bonded Sara's soul to the whip used her hatred of Walter and then Mathias as a source of power.
The Belmont hunts the night, which they're most famous for doing in the confines of 'Demon Castle Dracula'. Dracula was Mathias, he became evil and embraced a demonic nature. Mathias professes wanting revenge against God, this is demonic in the sense that it is taking the stance of being anti-God/ anti-Christ.
Dracula also has the ability to transform into a Demon, lest we forget.

Sara's hatred is never mentioned, that's not part of her character.
"I can feel it. My heartbeat is weakening and my blood is growing cold... I can feel myself changing into something inhuman... If my soul can save others, then I won't die in vain. I do not want anyone else to suffer my fate."
It's because she was a pure untarnished soul that becomes the VK's power, nothing to do with hatred, in fact she wanted to help Leon which is why she offered her "tainted soul" to Leon. She knew she'd lose her humanity to vampirism.

So any being perceived as being associated with Mathias/vampires will be vulnerable to the whip.
That's why it's affective against Death, which LoI is keen to point out is divine and thus not a demon.
In fact, most of the enemies you fight in any given Castlevania game are not demonic at all.
And besides that, the whip is specifically designed to slay vampires, not demons.
Demon is a very broad term. Demons>>>>>Vampires, sub category
If the entities aren't demonic, they're associated with the night and that's enough.
The VK is specially made to hunt the night, that is all.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Nagumo on October 08, 2014, 10:22:33 AM
This is just a minor gripe, but I'm suprised Dracula's origin is only brought up in one game and then never again. The conversations that always occur before fighting him would seem to be the perfect opportunity to allude to his past somehow.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 08, 2014, 05:50:25 PM
There are ways around this, allowing certain sets of weapons, items or glyphs for example to be saved and shuffled through without accessing inventory. Of course you have to access it sometimes, and it's part of what I liked about Sotn, but more as a one off game. Generally I think Castlevania is better at being faster paced with its gameplay.

Having selectable sets of inventory is convenient, but I still don't see it as that big a deal if you have to switch up weapons from time to time in an action-RPG when the situation calls for it.
I would disagree about fast paced game play as a fan of the original games.
Before SotN, Castlevania games were always designed as slower paced platformers that punished rushing forward and not thinking about what you're doing... especially near pits.



Each to his own. The oldschool CV's never had this but compensated for it in other ways i.e. the cross has the best range, axe hits enemies and objects you could never hit otherwise, and holy water raped enemies on the ground.

I wouldn't call the design of the sub-weapons a compensation for traditional monster weakness.
The original games didn't really use a lot of monsters with specific traditional weaknesses.
They weren't compensating, they were just... ignoring it.
But, yes, to each their own.


The Belmont hunts the night, which they're most famous for doing in the confines of 'Demon Castle Dracula'. Dracula was Mathias, he became evil and embraced a demonic nature. Mathias professes wanting revenge against God, this is demonic in the sense that it is taking the stance of being anti-God/ anti-Christ.
Dracula also has the ability to transform into a Demon, lest we forget.

Sara's hatred is never mentioned, that's not part of her character.
"I can feel it. My heartbeat is weakening and my blood is growing cold... I can feel myself changing into something inhuman... If my soul can save others, then I won't die in vain. I do not want anyone else to suffer my fate."
It's because she was a pure untarnished soul that becomes the VK's power, nothing to do with hatred, in fact she wanted to help Leon which is why she offered her "tainted soul" to Leon. She knew she'd lose her humanity to vampirism.
Demon is a very broad term. Demons>>>>>Vampires, sub category
If the entities aren't demonic, they're associated with the night and that's enough.
The VK is specially made to hunt the night, that is all.

Wanting revenge against God does not make you demonic.
Besides, as far as we know from the games' stories Mathias does not gain demonic powers until he becomes the Dark Lord in CV3.
LoI only specifies that he has become a vampire and this isn't Buffy the Vampire Slayer where vampires are a type of demon.

I watched the ending while I was writing my previous post and I'm watching the cut scenes involving Sara as I write this one.
Leon specifically says that he can sense the whip's rage at the end of the game.
Since the whip contains Sara's soul then, by transitive property, it's Sara's rage Leon is feeling.
The source of the whip's power is most definitely pure, but rage isn't born of kindness.
Assuming Sara has no hatred or anger in her character reduces her to a flat one-dimensional character.
And, of course the best bit of evidence that the source of the Vampire Killer's power is Sarah's hatred is the very incantation Rinaldo uses to bond Sara's soul to the whip:
Rinaldo: "All becomes one in infinity. The tainted soul joins his. Undesired and cursed soul, his blood accepts your HATRED for the power to slay."
Later Leon says, "Yes, I can tell. The power of hatred and destruction the whip has against vampires."


I think you could make an argument that most of the enemies you fight in Castlevania ARE demonic. IRL witch hunting lore blames demonic/Satan-derived powers for animal-human hybrids, possessed inanimate objects,  and simply normal people turned evil and violent. If a witch/wizard/necromancer were to cast a spell or control skeletons or do anything like that, it was generally taken to be the work of a devil and not the witch alone. Pretty much all of the magic sciences involved invoking a demonic being and making THEM do the work.

However that lore isn't used in Castlevania.
Sypha, Carrie, and Yoko are all witches and they are all specifically employed by the Church in Castlevania's world.
Plus, the real world church blamed everything from the common cold to a woman's menstrual cycle on Lucifer and his demons.
So you can't really use that as an argument.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 09, 2014, 12:21:17 AM
Having selectable sets of inventory is convenient, but I still don't see it as that big a deal if you have to switch up weapons from time to time in an action-RPG when the situation calls for it.
I would disagree about fast paced game play as a fan of the original games.
Before SotN, Castlevania games were always designed as slower paced platformers that punished rushing forward and not thinking about what you're doing... especially near pits.

Wanting revenge against God does not make you demonic.
It makes you anti-Christ in the physical sense, and in LOI's context - willing to embrace the one's evil/ demonic nature. i.e. Kidnapping your best friend's fiance, knowing she'll be turned into a vampire and using the Crimson Stone to become lord of the vampires. Yes ....not demonic at all.

Besides, as far as we know from the games' stories Mathias does not gain demonic powers until he becomes the Dark Lord in CV3.
Transforming into the Lord of the Vampires and turning into a bat is not demonic..

LoI only specifies that he has become a vampire and this isn't Buffy the Vampire Slayer where vampires are a type of demon.
Then the series should be called Vampire Castle Dracula... No but you're right, Medusa, The Forgotten One, all the enemies the castle is crawling with, I'm sure they're all good people/ animals/ hybrids.
I'm not even going to comment about buffy and the fact you watch it.
You might want to define what you consider demonic then, because it doesn't seem like it's much if anything.

I watched the ending while I was writing my previous post and I'm watching the cut scenes involving Sara as I write this one.
Leon specifically says that he can sense the whip's rage at the end of the game.
Since the whip contains Sara's soul then, by transitive property, it's Sara's rage Leon is feeling.
Though it's never stated in this moment. It could be that the whip itself imbued with Sara's soul is reacting with rage toward the night.

The source of the whip's power is most definitely pure, but rage isn't born of kindness.
Assuming Sara has no hatred or anger in her character reduces her to a flat one-dimensional character.
I never said she wasn't human, I said this is not how her character was portrayed, nor how the manual describes her. She is described as pure.

And, of course the best bit of evidence that the source of the Vampire Killer's power is Sarah's hatred is the very incantation Rinaldo uses to bond Sara's soul to the whip:
Rinaldo: "All becomes one in infinity. The tainted soul joins his. Undesired and cursed soul, his blood accepts your HATRED for the power to slay."
Even if true, this is what Rinaldo is saying, it doesn't resonate with what Sara says about wanting to help and have others avoid her fate. It could be that it simply harnessed any hatred she had inside her. I'd be interested to see what the Japanese text says.

Later Leon says, "Yes, I can tell. The power of hatred and destruction the whip has against vampires."
Again, this is highlighting one emotion against the night. The power came from Sara's soul joining with the Whip of Alchemy. granted that the whip requires a tainted soul for its completion, but it didn't necessarily require Sara's soul. It required the tainted soul of someone who trusts the wielder of the Whip of Alchemy. One then has to wonder if the tainted soul's character has anything to do with this at all. It seems more like the Whip of Alchemy harnessing the soul and emphasising the one emotion for its completion rather than saying X is filled with hate because of Y - that's one dimensional.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on October 09, 2014, 02:58:55 AM
Y'know, maybe some of the dialogues were cut from LoI ala what happened in SotN.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on October 09, 2014, 09:54:03 AM
Quote
Transforming into the Lord of the Vampires and turning into a bat is not demonic..

Vampires are not demons. They are vampires. They belong to their own classification. As for creatures like Medusa and the forgotten one? Medusa is not a demon. She is a Gorgon. Like vampires, Gorgons are of their own classification. The forgotten one is most definitely demonic in some form or another. But as to what it really is besides a hanging hunk of raw meat, who knows.

Quote
Then the series should be called Vampire Castle Dracula...

The title refers to Castlevania itself. Demon castle Dracula. In other words Dracula created a Demonic castle from which to rule over all. The title does not refer to Dracula as the demon but the castle itself.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on October 09, 2014, 02:09:17 PM
I believe that demon is a catch-all term for those who serve Dracula as well as the Count himself. You could use monster, too, and that might be more accurate. But then ghosts aren't really monsters, either. Demon works because everyone under Dracula's command is demonic in origin. He's using his powers to create his own army.

That's my take.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on October 09, 2014, 10:48:03 PM
Japan is under 1% Christian

That hasn't stopped them from referencing Christianity. A LOT. Which is kind of ironic when you consider that the game's religious content was censored for the other half of the world that has a great percentile of Christians.

But I do agree with respect to the word akuma being of the Japanese culture's definition. The title would be lost on the gamers, were it otherwise.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 10, 2014, 12:54:40 AM
It makes you anti-Christ in the physical sense, and in LOI's context - willing to embrace the one's evil/ demonic nature. i.e. Kidnapping your best friend's fiance, knowing she'll be turned into a vampire and using the Crimson Stone to become lord of the vampires. Yes ....not demonic at all.

By physical sense do you mean 'by his actions'?
And no, it makes you evil, not 'anti-Christ'.
Those actions can be labeled as evil, but being evil does not make you demonic.
You're over simplifying these concepts.


Transforming into the Lord of the Vampires and turning into a bat is not demonic..

No. It isn't. It's presented in LoI as magic/alchemy.
And again you can label these things evil, but not necessarily demonic.


Then the series should be called Vampire Castle Dracula... No but you're right, Medusa, The Forgotten One, all the enemies the castle is crawling with, I'm sure they're all good people/ animals/ hybrids.

No. The demon part of the title is referencing the castle not it's master.
But besides that, it was clarified later in the series that by the time CV1 happens Dracula already has his demonic powers.


I'm not even going to comment about buffy and the fact you watch it.

*Watched* it. I saw the movie when I was a kid, and I watched the series when I was in high school.
That was a over a decade ago. I like the movie better than the show.


You might want to define what you consider demonic then, because it doesn't seem like it's much if anything.

By definition, in the context of Judeo-christian religion, a demon is a fallen angel.
Demons are spiritual entities that were never born in the physical universe who act with malicious intent towards humanity, on the orders of Lucifer, to spite God and prove humanity unworthy of his love.
In common speech, the word demonic is defined as descriptive of a thing or action being demon-like (evil).
Originally, it literally meant being influenced by demonic forces, which is not a common use any more.

The castle is demonic. The demons, imps, devils, etc that you fight in the castle are demonic.
Agni, Beelzebub, Beur, Andras, Malphas and Legion are actual demons named in ancient texts/the bible.
The Dark Lord is demonic. It just so happens that Dracula is also a vampire.
Just being a evil dick does not make you a demon.
Death isn't a demon.


Though it's never stated in this moment. It could be that the whip itself imbued with Sara's soul is reacting with rage toward the night.

That's what I'm saying.
I'm just also making the logical connection that a whip, even a magical is not sentient and non-sentient objects do not have emotions.
So if the emotion of rage is stated as the source of the whip's power and a magic whip doesn't have emotion then that emotion has to come from the soul bound to it.


I never said she wasn't human, I said this is not how her character was portrayed, nor how the manual describes her. She is described as pure.

I didn't say she wasn't human either.
I said that by you assuming that Sara doesn't feel hatred or rage because of her character bio you are making her one-dimensional.
You really think a young woman in love won't feel anger and hatred when she is ripped from everything she knows and turned into an inhuman creature that has to feed on human blood?


Even if true, this is what Rinaldo is saying, it doesn't resonate with what Sara says about wanting to help and have others avoid her fate. It could be that it simply harnessed any hatred she had inside her. I'd be interested to see what the Japanese text says.

It's not just what Rinaldo is saying, that is the incantation that is being applied.
You can even hear the change in his voice from the previous line he speak which is just him talking to Leon.
It doesn't have to resonate with Sara's desire to help prevent others from sharing her fate.
One does not have to do with the other and peoples words don't necessarily need to match their emotions in a 1:1 ratio.

I'd like to know if there are any differences from the Japanese dialogue, too.


Again, this is highlighting one emotion against the night. The power came from Sara's soul joining with the Whip of Alchemy. granted that the whip requires a tainted soul for its completion, but it didn't necessarily require Sara's soul. It required the tainted soul of someone who trusts the wielder of the Whip of Alchemy. One then has to wonder if the tainted soul's character has anything to do with this at all. It seems more like the Whip of Alchemy harnessing the soul and emphasising the one emotion for its completion rather than saying X is filled with hate because of Y - that's one dimensional.

It's not against the night.
Why are you applying one line that Leon says at the end of the game to anything that happened before?
Literally, the night is only mentioned like once in the entire game.
However, they talk a lot about the Vampire Killer's purpose and it's source of power in specific terms.

And of course they are highlighting that emotion. It's the emotion that is relevant to the creation of the Vampire Killer.
It is the story's explanation for why the whip which was intended to destroy vampires is able to harm anything associated with them even if they are of divine origin.
Sara's character isn't what is needed to give the Vampire Killer it's power.
It's clearly stated, though, that the emotions of the soul are.
But also take into consideration that person isn't just their character. Real people are dynamic.
For example, It's not in my character to hurt people. I find it distasteful, but under the right circumstances I'll put a bullet in a person's head if I feel threatened.

Having the magic use the tainted soul's hatred is one-dimensional to the spell and the whip, but those are inanimate things.
Inanimate things don't need to be more than one-dimensional. That's what being one-dimensional means.
That's why it's bad for characters in a story to be one-dimensional; it makes people seem more like things.
Sara is not one-dimensional BECAUSE of her normally pure character in contrast to being told that she had a hatred in her due to her circumstances.


I believe that demon is a catch-all term for those who serve Dracula as well as the Count himself. You could use monster, too, and that might be more accurate. But then ghosts aren't really monsters, either. Demon works because everyone under Dracula's command is demonic in origin. He's using his powers to create his own army.

That's my take.

It's not.
Monster is a catch all term.
A ghost is defined as the disembodied spirit of something that was once alive in a physical sense and can most definitely be called a monster, but not a demon.
The origins of most of the monsters in the castle are not all demonic. The demonic power of the castle does create many monsters, but that doesn't make them all demons.
A skeleton is a magically animated construct. Even the magic is granted by a demonic force the skeleton itself is not demonic in the strictest sense.


Japan is under 1% Christian, so I doubt Akuma is referring to "Demon"/"Devil" in a Biblical sense. I always thought it meant all-purpose evil/malevolent non-human/non-living beings.

Doesn't matter. I've spoken to many translators at ROMhacking.net that are fluent in Japanese and they all told me that in normal Japanese speech "akuma" is normally used to refer to the Christian Devil specifically.
(Much to my chagrin as I prefer the "Demon Castle Dracula" translation over "Devil Castle Dracula".)
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on October 10, 2014, 05:19:02 AM
Glad you're here to clear this all up for us.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Nagumo on October 10, 2014, 08:02:49 AM
Japan is under 1% Christian, so I doubt Akuma is referring to "Demon"/"Devil" in a Biblical sense. I always thought it meant all-purpose evil/malevolent non-human/non-living beings.

That's exactly what it means. The term pretty much must have originated from before Christianity was introduced in Japan because otherwise they would have used an European loanword for "devil". I'm pretty sure it's not exclusively used to say devil nowadays either, and I can even provide a Castlevania related example. In one of the novels, the blood of a vampire is refered to as "akuma no chi", which you could translate as "devil's blood". Basically, in all the cases where akuma doesn't specifally refers to a devil, it's often still translated like that anyway because no other English equivalent exists.       
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Kaneda on October 10, 2014, 10:51:52 AM
So I was right, then. That's not me gloating, I'm just saying that this interpretation has support to back it up.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Akumajou Jason XX on October 11, 2014, 02:50:32 AM
You're all wrong.  The title, when literally translated, actually means "Joe Akuma Dracula", thereby signifying the following:

- Akuma from Street Fighter is Dracula
- His first name is Joe
- Street Fighter and Castlevania take place in the same universe

Jesus Christ.  It's all laid out so plainly for everyone to see.  How can there even be a debate?
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 11, 2014, 08:39:52 PM
That's exactly what it means. The term pretty much must have originated from before Christianity was introduced in Japan because otherwise they would have used an European loanword for "devil". I'm pretty sure it's not exclusively used to say devil nowadays either, and I can even provide a Castlevania related example. In one of the novels, the blood of a vampire is refered to as "akuma no chi", which you could translate as "devil's blood". Basically, in all the cases where akuma doesn't specifally refers to a devil, it's often still translated like that anyway because no other English equivalent exists.       

That is the literal meaning, yes. Originally it's one of the many variations of what western society calls a demon.
However, in much the same way that the original greek word, deimon, has nothing to do with fallen angels or the modern idea of a demon it is nonetheless used for that purpose now.

akuma 悪魔 【あくま】 (n) devil; demon; fiend; Satan; evil spirit.

aku 悪 【あく】 (n) (ant: 善) evil; wickedness; bad thing; bad person.

ma 魔 【ま】 (n) (1) demon; devil; evil spirit; evil influence. (2) (See 覗き魔) someone who (habitually) performs some (negative) act.

Akuma didn't originally mean the Christian Devil, but it is used that way now in modern Japanese language more often than not.
Debiru is also used, but it is far less common.
For just any old demon or evil spirit the kanji "ma" is can be used but akuma can also.
It's the same "ma" used in majin, which is most often used to describe magical beings such as Djinni or some types of Faeries.
It also happens to be the "ma" used in madou, mahou, & majutsu which each have slightly different connotations yet all mean magic.

But all the technicality in the world doesn't change how Japanese people use their language on a day to day basis.
That's why video games are localized rather than being literal translations among other things like differences in humor.
Also, we have to remember that Japanese is a highly contextual language and a kanji can be used in three consecutive sentences but mean entirely different things.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: SiFi270 on October 12, 2014, 02:49:44 PM
Whoops I gave this thread a two-star rating while struggling with my phone's touchscreen sorry guys.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on October 13, 2014, 01:23:14 AM
Quote
Whoops I gave this thread a two-star rating while struggling with my phone's touchscreen sorry guys.

Maybe it was your subconscious thinking that it was so good it forced you to give it such a good rating  :)
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Dracula9 on October 13, 2014, 02:21:46 AM
I'd make the timeline not a total mess.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Nagumo on October 13, 2014, 05:58:14 AM
I forgot why exactly we were arguing about what akuma means, but I disagree, although what has been said isn't necessarily incorrect. I'm pretty sure the term can and still is used very loosely, case in point my example.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 13, 2014, 06:10:09 AM
I'm just sayin' what people fluent in the language have told me.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 17, 2014, 01:44:59 AM
@Inccubus I did reply but my long ass post never made it.

I see you've done much research into the etymology of CV terminology.

However, the creatures in the Castle are mostly creatures of darkness who in some way are under the rule of Dracula, as far as I understand.

Are you saying for eg that you don't believe that say Medusa (a gorgon) is a lower tier creature than Dracula? One would assume there is a reason the monsters are all hanging about Dracula's Castle, and as such Dracula has dominion over these creatures.
This is apparent in AOS where Soma can control the souls of the creatures which inhabit the castle, even say a Zombie soldier who was there during the battle of 1999 but wouldn't neccesarily be a demon - from your perspective.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 17, 2014, 03:09:54 AM
There's the thing; you said it yourself the creatures in the castle are MOSTLY of darkness.
Being "of darkness" doesn't equate to being  demonic any more than being of light.
Take the Amalaric Snipers which is a holy creature but is consistently referred to as a fallen angel.

Code: [Select]
Let me digress a moment to check on the description of this guy in the original release.

暴君アマラリックを射殺した神の射手

Bōkun amararikku o shasatsu shi ta kami no shashu

Google Translate: Archers of God who shot and killed tyrant [Amalaric]

So they aren't even fallen angels in the original.
Dracula gained dominion of an angelic creature.
So there you go even if only one creature in the place is specifically not a demon, then the idea that all the creatures are demonic has to get thrown out.
(Though, I have to wonder if in any of the other appearances of the Amalaric Sniper the descriptions were also fudged or if it was later retconned to be a fallen angel.)

As for Dracula's tier, he is the Dark Lord which is the top of the evil food chain.
So, no, I'm not saying any of the creatures are of a higher tier.
The games say that many of the creatures are summoned to the castle, but there are many other examples of creatures being corrupted by the castle's magic and some of the monsters being straight up constructs created with alchemy/magic.

AoS kind of confuses things a little when it comes to the created monsters because, for example, a magically animated corpse shouldn't have a soul at all, nor should the golems.
However, you have to take into account that part of Japanese culture is the idea of animism.
If you know anything about the Shinto religion then you'll be aware that in Shinto everything has a "soul". Buddhism also to some degree.
Even inanimate objects have a spirit.
That's where you get the legends of very old objects coming to life; the Tsukumogami.
The most popular example of which are the paper lantern ghost (Chōchin-obake) and the umbrella ghost (Kasa-obake).
So you could think of the souls in AoS more like essences than actual souls.

So to answer your question, no, I wouldn't consider a Zombie Soldier a demon in any sense.
Oh, and Medusa was a goddess that was cursed by one of the Olympian gods and subsequently killed.
(TRIVIA - Medusa was the only one of the three gorgon sisters that wasn't immortal. Also, besides Euryale & Stheno, Echidna, the 3 Graeae and Ladon are all Medusa's siblings.)
So I have to assume that her spirit was summoned to the castle.
Who knows, since they don't really ever tell you anything about what Dracula's soul is up to when he goes (presumably) back to hell after each defeat he may just have run into Medusa and 'recruited' her.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on October 17, 2014, 10:23:16 AM
Quote
Oh, and Medusa was a goddess that was cursed by one of the Olympian gods and subsequently killed.

Really? The story I'm familiar with is that Medusa was one of the many temple servants to Aphrodite; Goddess of love and beauty. Medusa was apparently a very, very beautiful woman; beautiful enough to almost rival the goddess she serves and the God Poseidon was smitten with her. She resisted all his attempts to court her and then finally, getting all fed up he raped her in Aphrodite's temple. This desecration of her temple angered the goddess (or she was extremely jealous which is also a bad thing when it comes to Aphrodite) and she cursed Medusa with a hideous form; part snake, part human. Very much the polar apposite to her former beauty. It's essentially a classic Greek tragedy where the innocent victim is held accountable and where the criminal gets away with rape  :P
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: theplottwist on October 17, 2014, 11:08:55 AM
Who knows, since they don't really ever tell you anything about what Dracula's soul is up to when he goes (presumably) back to hell after each defeat he may just have run into Medusa and 'recruited' her.

In fact, Dracula's soul goes to the Makai, the demon world, and gets corrupted even more. Here is the source:

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=7375.30 (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=7375.30)
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 17, 2014, 01:20:13 PM
Really? The story I'm familiar with is that Medusa was one of the many temple servants to Aphrodite; Goddess of love and beauty. Medusa was apparently a very, very beautiful woman; beautiful enough to almost rival the goddess she serves and the God Poseidon was smitten with her. She resisted all his attempts to court her and then finally, getting all fed up he raped her in Aphrodite's temple. This desecration of her temple angered the goddess (or she was extremely jealous which is also a bad thing when it comes to Aphrodite) and she cursed Medusa with a hideous form; part snake, part human. Very much the polar apposite to her former beauty. It's essentially a classic Greek tragedy where the innocent victim is held accountable and where the criminal gets away with rape  :P

Actually, that is a much later version of the story and some parts of it are only present in one telling but none of the other much older ones.
Medusa is the daughter of the gods Phorkys and Keto. (That makes her a goddess.) And apparently, in most tellings of the tale she is a priestess of Athena, not Aphrodite. The reason Athena got pissed at her is that, depending on the telling, she either breaks her vow of celibacy and marries Poseidon or she gets raped by him. Either way it happens in Athena's temple.


In fact, Dracula's soul goes to the Makai, the demon world, and gets corrupted even more. Here is the source:

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=7375.30 (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=7375.30)

I stand corrected. We don't know much about what he does while he's dead in hell.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: X on October 17, 2014, 05:35:27 PM
@Inccubus

I see. Depending on the era of said story, content will change over time. I'll have to check out the other versions sometime.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 18, 2014, 09:10:34 AM
There's the thing; you said it yourself the creatures in the castle are MOSTLY of darkness.
Being "of darkness" doesn't equate to being  demonic any more than being of light.
Funnily enough in AOS when Soma talks about his 'dark powers' he states that dark doesn't necessarily mean 'evil'.

So they aren't even fallen angels in the original.
Dracula gained dominion of an angelic creature.
So there you go even if only one creature in the place is specifically not a demon, then the idea that all the creatures are demonic has to get thrown out.
Point taken about the demonic.

This is what I never understood though, Dracula (as Mathias or Vlad) was once a religious man, but he obviously doesn't worship God (his denouncement later being illustrated during the events->ending of LOI) Yet, SOTN has a holy chapel (technically 2) and in the inverted Castle, the Amalaric snipers openly follow the player trying to inflict harm. Is it because Alucard is unholy, because of his cursed blood?
I guess it's harder imo to understand how Dracula can gain dominion over angelic beings, and why they manifest in his Castle, if say for example other creatures have come from the underworld. It's the how I don't really understand.


As for Dracula's tier, he is the Dark Lord which is the top of the evil food chain.
So, no, I'm not saying any of the creatures are of a higher tier.
The games say that many of the creatures are summoned to the castle.
^this more relates to my point above.^

AoS kind of confuses things a little when it comes to the created monsters because, for example, a magically animated corpse shouldn't have a soul at all, nor should the golems.
However, you have to take into account that part of Japanese culture is the idea of animism.
If you know anything about the Shinto religion then you'll be aware that in Shinto everything has a "soul". Buddhism also to some degree.
I know vaguely of Shinto
I understand the concept of an essence or energy, rather than the stereotypical western definition of a 'soul'.

Even inanimate objects have a spirit.
That's where you get the legends of very old objects coming to life; the Tsukumogami.
The most popular example of which are the paper lantern ghost (Chōchin-obake) and the umbrella ghost (Kasa-obake).
So you could think of the souls in AoS more like essences than actual souls.
All matter has an essence/energy, 'soul' sounds better though.

So to answer your question, no, I wouldn't consider a Zombie Soldier a demon in any sense.
Cool, me neither. I actually think these were thrown in to illustrate that a force of army/military soldiers were involved in 1999, more than anything.

Oh, and Medusa was a goddess that was cursed by one of the Olympian gods and subsequently killed.
(TRIVIA - Medusa was the only one of the three gorgon sisters that wasn't immortal. Also, besides Euryale & Stheno, Echidna, the 3 Graeae and Ladon are all Medusa's siblings.)
So I have to assume that her spirit was summoned to the castle.
Interesting story about Medusa, and yes, one would assume she was summoned. Although some of the time she manifests as a floating head. Also in the context of CV, take LOI, she seems to enjoy inflicting pain upon humans.

Who knows, since they don't really ever tell you anything about what Dracula's soul is up to when he goes (presumably) back to hell after each defeat he may just have run into Medusa and 'recruited' her.
I bet he's off making deals with these monsters and recruiting them in a sense. If he promises that upon his return they will live gain if they give him their soul/ energy/ essence etc, this is a chance they would more than likely take. Can't say for certain though.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 18, 2014, 02:43:29 PM
This is what I never understood though, Dracula (as Mathias or Vlad) was once a religious man, but he obviously doesn't worship God (his denouncement later being illustrated during the events->ending of LOI) Yet, SOTN has a holy chapel (technically 2) and in the inverted Castle, the Amalaric snipers openly follow the player trying to inflict harm. Is it because Alucard is unholy, because of his cursed blood?

That would have been a good point if they hadn't used them in PoR where they openly attack two humans.
I've heard the idea that the presence of the chapel in Castlevania proper is intended as an affront to God.
Then again maybe it's just there because most real castles have them.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on October 19, 2014, 12:34:34 AM
I've heard the idea that the presence of the chapel in Castlevania proper is intended as an affront to God.
Then again maybe it's just there because most real castles have them.

Yes and yes. Plus chapels allow pixel artists to create backgrounds with vivid pretty stained glass colors.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Dracula9 on October 19, 2014, 03:26:00 AM
Actually, that is a much later version of the story and some parts of it are only present in one telling but none of the other much older ones.
Medusa is the daughter of the gods Phorkys and Keto. (That makes her a goddess.) And apparently, in most tellings of the tale she is a priestess of Athena, not Aphrodite. The reason Athena got pissed at her is that, depending on the telling, she either breaks her vow of celibacy and marries Poseidon or she gets raped by him. Either way it happens in Athena's temple.
Ancient mythos are far too variable to really pin down. It's one of the rare instances when I slightly justify incorrect popular usage. For instance, why should we call a certain Allfather Odin when an earlier spelling translates to Oithin? Or whether it's Jormungandr or The Serpent of Midgard? Whether it's Hercules or Herakles, Cerberus or Cerebos or Kerebos, or why the fuck Disney's Hercules made Hera not a total bitch, Zeus not a total horndog, and thought it would be a PHENOMENAL IDEA to hook Herc up with one of the fucking Sisters of Fate...only she's actually human now. Like I said, pretty hard to find a solid consistency. Going by the earliest telling only gets you so far, since they find an older one every few years.

I stand corrected. We don't know much about what he does while he's dead in hell.

That's assuming he's even in Hell. Maybe he just hightails it to Barbados for a mai tai and a tan (God knows he needs one).

Quote from: zangetsu468
All matter has an essence/energy, 'soul' sounds better though.

No, a soul implies a consciousness, emotive state, or sentience of being and/or intellect. It does not and should not equate to physiological essence. I don't have the same essence as a chair because a chair has no intellect, emotion, or sentience (as far as I know, Hector might disagree). Granted, you then delve into a spiritually-involved argument (note that I didn't say 'religiously') which defeats the purpose of it. Don't be getting all philosophical when there's not much need for it.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: theANdROId on October 19, 2014, 04:33:04 PM
Well, at least Disney could claim the excuse that they have to censor some stuff out to make a "family friendly" movie...though one would then have to wonder how they'd try and excuse other crap they got past the radar. ;-P

As for the mythos/folklore, weren't many of these stories shared or passed down through storytelling?  I'm sure years of essentially playing "telephone" contributed to the many differences these stories usually have.

Hector...chairs...HA!  That's awesome!
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Inccubus on October 19, 2014, 07:04:05 PM
Yeah, Disney doesn't really do that much any more. They just have one of their various studios handle the grittier content. :P
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 19, 2014, 11:57:18 PM
No, a soul implies a consciousness, emotive state, or sentience of being and/or intellect. It does not and should not equate to physiological essence. I don't have the same essence as a chair because a chair has no intellect, emotion, or sentience (as far as I know, Hector might disagree). Granted, you then delve into a spiritually-involved argument (note that I didn't say 'religiously') which defeats the purpose of it. Don't be getting all philosophical when there's not much need for it.

Riiiight, I'm guessing you didn't read Inccubus' post then, since mine was so much more philosophical.... :rollseyes:

AoS kind of confuses things a little when it comes to the created monsters because, for example, a magically animated corpse shouldn't have a soul at all, nor should the golems.
However, you have to take into account that part of Japanese culture is the idea of animism.
If you know anything about the Shinto religion then you'll be aware that in Shinto everything has a "soul". Buddhism also to some degree.
Even inanimate objects have a spirit.
That's where you get the legends of very old objects coming to life; the Tsukumogami.
The most popular example of which are the paper lantern ghost (Chōchin-obake) and the umbrella ghost (Kasa-obake).
So you could think of the souls in AoS more like essences than actual souls.

@ Dracula9 How about not telling people how to post, that'd be just great.


That would have been a good point if they hadn't used them in PoR where they openly attack two humans.
Well if Dracula has dominion over them it shouldn't make any difference I suppose. Although POR like every other 2dvania at the time was ripping sprites from previous games, so it was probably just that.

I've heard the idea that the presence of the chapel in Castlevania proper is intended as an affront to God.
Then again maybe it's just there because most real castles have them.
Well the chapel itself is perverted with enemies, floating swords, and the like. I always just thought it was one of the creepier parts of the Castle and seemed out of place.


Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Dracula9 on October 20, 2014, 12:40:51 AM
Riiiiight, demand I stop telling people what to post and then accuse me of not reading the thread. That looks really good on you.

Actually, your post is more philosophical, or rather, it tries to be; your comment that essence and a soul were one and the same was something I like to call Bullshit Philosophy, which in a nutshell is wording something insignificant or outright incorrect to sound deep or symbolic. And if you couldn't tell, the last two sentences of mine, about chairs not having souls and telling you not to bullshit, was sarcasm. Whoops.  :rollseyes:

Quote from: Inccubus
AoS kind of confuses things a little when it comes to the created monsters because, for example, a magically animated corpse shouldn't have a soul at all, nor should the golems.
However, you have to take into account that part of Japanese culture is the idea of animism.
If you know anything about the Shinto religion then you'll be aware that in Shinto everything has a "soul". Buddhism also to some degree.
Even inanimate objects have a spirit.
That's where you get the legends of very old objects coming to life; the Tsukumogami.
The most popular example of which are the paper lantern ghost (Chōchin-obake) and the umbrella ghost (Kasa-obake).
So you could think of the souls in AoS more like essences than actual souls.
Quote
@ Dracula9 How about not telling people how to post, that'd be just great.

That would've been all great and dandy, had I been the one to say it. I didn't even say that, Inccubus did. You even responded to the Shinto references, you fuckin' moron.
Quote from: zangetsu468
I know vaguely of Shinto
I understand the concept of an essence or energy, rather than the stereotypical western definition of a 'soul'.
Double whoops. And on that note, Western culture didn't invent the concept of the soul as it's most widely known today. That concept came over with the Puritans and refined itself over the centuries. And Western culture isn't the only one to use the idea. This of course assumes by Western you mean not-Japan, which is alright until the directions tangle each other up after so long. Go West enough and you'll reach Japan, making Japan a Western culture of whatever the fuck's east of it.

And lastly:
Quote from: Inccubus on October 17, 2014, 03:09:54 AM
How about reading who said what before starting shit, that'd be just great.
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Nagumo on October 20, 2014, 03:06:40 AM
This thread has gotten off-topic, so please take this to the off-topic board if you want to continue to discuss this further. Also, I don't think there's any reason to get worked up about this. Treat each other kindly, or if you can't, don't talk about it.   
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: theANdROId on October 20, 2014, 04:41:07 AM
 ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Can We All Just Get Along? For The Kids & Old People? RODNEY KING SPEAKS! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0#)

What would I change?  I'd make a world where the fans were all filled with happiness and joy and brotherly love!  I have a dream -- my Castlevania fans around the world, will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the Vania of their preference, but by their love for the game -- I have a dream today! ... When ALL of Castlevania Dungeon's Forum, Classicvani-ists and Metroidvani-ums, Gabul-iniums and Trevor-ians, 2D-ists and 3D-ists, will be able to join hands and sing in the tunes of the old Castlevania chiptunes, Vampire Killer, Wicked Child, and Bloody Tears!

 ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: Dracula9 on October 20, 2014, 06:07:08 AM
...Well, how the hell do we come back from that? I can't top that..
Title: Re: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 20, 2014, 03:23:39 PM
This thread has gotten off-topic, so please take this to the off-topic board if you want to continue to discuss this further. Also, I don't think there's any reason to get worked up about this. Treat each other kindly, or if you can't, don't talk about it.