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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: crisis on October 04, 2014, 07:55:44 PM

Title: AoS plothole
Post by: crisis on October 04, 2014, 07:55:44 PM
in aos julius tells soma that he must retrieve his weapon, the VK. we learn that he previously sealed it in the castle in 1999 upon dracula's defeat

in symphony maria tells alucard that the castle is different from when she remembers it, to which he replies "this castle is a creature of chaos; it may take on many incarnations," which means each time the castle is brought back it will always be "new," no exceptions

so how is it that julius a man with amnesia can locate the whip when theoretically the castle from 2035 should be completely different from when it was sealed in the eclipse in 1999. completely different layout with new sections

one of castlevanis great mysterious
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: BLOOD MONKEY on October 04, 2014, 08:25:45 PM
That is true... BUT frankenstein stayed. The short sword stayed. The moai heads stayed. The CASTLE KEEP STAYED.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: DarkPrinceAlucard on October 04, 2014, 08:47:18 PM
there can be a really simple answer to that question rather than a plothole.

Maybe the Belmonts are mystically linked to the VK and thus they know how to find it no matter where it is?

Its certainly possible and not out of the realm of possibilities.

So even if the castle is different than he remembers he still knows how to find it due to that link.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: DarkLavos on October 04, 2014, 09:06:31 PM
Or maybe it's the same castle since it was sealed and not destroyed?
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: theplottwist on October 04, 2014, 09:48:42 PM
Or maybe it's the same castle since it was sealed and not destroyed?

Exactly this.

It seems that the castle didn't get destroyed, only that it was separated from Dracula's soul, which got reincarnated on this world. That's why the castle is calling for a new master. It was never gone, just separated from Dracula and sealed inside the ecclipse. Another good evidence is that there is a castle to seal inside the ecclipse. If it got destroyed, there would have nothing inside the ecclipse.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: crisis on October 04, 2014, 10:11:21 PM
but that cant be, b/c if there was an actual 1999 game, we all know the castle structure & map would differ vastly from the one in aos for gameplay purposes. unless u guys are arguing that the castle map should be exactly the same and u guys would be ok with that?

paradox
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: theplottwist on October 05, 2014, 01:13:40 AM
but that cant be, b/c if there was an actual 1999 game, we all know the castle structure & map would differ vastly from the one in aos for gameplay purposes. unless u guys are arguing that the castle map should be exactly the same and u guys would be ok with that?

paradox

No dude, no... It works, and if they ever make the 1999 game, the game CAN have the same map, while things are slightly different, like having some paths blocked, and other paths open. Or having different routes that Soma doesn't take on his adventure. It's all about leniency.

Also, I bet my ass that the crubled coffins on AoS' save rooms were used by Alucard on 1999.

Also, I bet my ass again that Galamoth was a catacombs' boss that came back to fight Julius or/and Alucard and exact revenge on about his defeat on SotN, but using the technique they used to banish Dracula, they did the same to his soul, trapping it in a chandelier (Which Soma breaks in 2023). The Legion room even has a portal that does look like it leads to another dimension (Nether World?).

Remember how Death's scythe is stuck on the giant clock in AoS? Bet it was Julius who did that in 1999 lol
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: darkwzrd4 on October 05, 2014, 01:53:07 AM
No dude, no... It works, and if they ever make the 1999 game, the game CAN have the same map, while things are slightly different, like having some paths blocked, and other paths open. Or having different routes that Soma doesn't take on his adventure. It's all about leniency.

Also, I bet my ass that the crubled coffins on AoS' save rooms were used by Alucard on 1999.

Also, I bet my ass again that Galamoth was a catacombs' boss that came back to fight Julius or/and Alucard and exact revenge on about his defeat on SotN, but using the technique they used to banish Dracula, they did the same to his soul, trapping it in a chandelier (Which Soma breaks in 2023). The Legion room even has a portal that does look like it leads to another dimension (Nether World?).

Remember how Death's scythe is stuck on the giant clock in AoS? Bet it was Julius who did that in 1999 lol
Agreed. I mean when you play 2D side scrolling CVs, you see rooms and other regions in the background that you never get to explore. So, it's possible if a 1999 game was ever made, the castle could be the same as the one in AoS but you go through a different route via rooms that weren't explored in AoS.

Think of some of the backgrounds you see in SotN. They look so expansive and yet we never get to explore them. For example, you see buildings in the background in Olrox's Quarters when your by the fountain. Imagine getting to explore those places and seeing what's in them.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on October 05, 2014, 05:41:39 AM
but that cant be, b/c if there was an actual 1999 game, we all know the castle structure & map would differ vastly from the one in aos for gameplay purposes. unless u guys are arguing that the castle map should be exactly the same and u guys would be ok with that?

paradox
But, there's not going to be a 1999 game and NEVER will be one. IGA's gone, classic canon's gone, the old world is dead.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: SiFi270 on October 05, 2014, 09:23:06 AM
I think it's worth noting that in that one book that took place after Dawn of Sorrow, the castle came back and it was still the same as it was in Aria.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Dracula9 on October 05, 2014, 12:07:13 PM
Well the sealed-not-destroyed thing's been mentioned, but there is also this.

Maybe Julius DIDN'T know exactly where the VK was located. Maybe he just ran around the castle until he found it. It makes perfect sense, seeing as that's basically the same thing Soma does. And if he DID know right where it was, why didn't he take out Graham or Soma(since it can be assumed that once his memory returned he knew Soma was the real Dorakyura) the instant he found it?
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: X on October 05, 2014, 03:38:58 PM
The Castle in AoS is the same one that was brought about in 1999. But that doesn't mean the journey through it is exactly the same. There would be different areas, rooms and hallways Soma never traversed in AoS. Same castle, different experience. It is a big castle after all.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: shelverton. on October 05, 2014, 08:45:44 PM
Yeah, exactly the same castle.
Worrying that the 1999 game would have the exact same map seems pointless since, you know, the 1999 game doesn't exist.

However, a future 1999 game (which clearly will never happen) could be a 3D game, which could have the exact same areas as AoS but still feel new and different.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Inccubus on October 05, 2014, 09:07:51 PM
Here's another simple explanation.
Julius sealed the castle with the Vampire Killer and Dracula's soul was  cut off from it.
It wouldn't be a huge leap to assume this means the castle is cut off from the source of Dracula's power as well.
If the castle is a creature of chaos, then it could be assumed that being cut off from the power of chaos would prevent it from reforming itself.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Super Waffle on October 07, 2014, 03:30:17 AM
This is a game where Dracula is reincarnated as a shounen anime high school student and your biggest complaint is the location of the whip.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: X on October 07, 2014, 06:05:36 AM
LOL! Super Waffle makes a good point. I wasn't fond of his fluffy neck-rimmed coat either, lol.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 07, 2014, 07:26:02 AM
Because Dracula's Castle was sealed inside of the Solar eclipse, one assumes it was like being in cryostasis. It wasn't in the physical realm anymore and only materialised when the eclipse was back.

Or it did crumble in the eclipse, and then materialised when the eclipse was back.

One assumes that the manifestation of the Castle has to do with its dark lord, if there was no Dark Lord for a time then who knows what may have happened to the Castle between then. Perhaps the Castle crumbling was a form of the cycle perpetuating itself which meant Dracula would revive.

Since Julius is aware that he sealed the VK in the Castle to weaken it, one would assume the ^former^ is correct and the castle didn't crumble, he knew exactly where it was to go looking for it. Which if we assume to be correct, I would assume it has something to do with the Dark Lord's final destruction and also partly to do with the ritual that the Hakuba family used in order to seal the Castle. If it was truly bound and sealed inside the eclipse (perhaps to trap the evil/ its connection to the underworld) then I don't personally see why it couldn't just be 'frozen' in there.

Another way to look at it is that the Castle was awaiting its new master.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Akumajou Jason XX on October 11, 2014, 08:08:09 AM
How about the concept of "sealing" anything inside of an eclipse?  An eclipse isn't a physical entity.  It's the result of sun or the moon being directly in front of one another.  There is nothing to seal anything in.  It's like saying he sealed the castle in 12 midnight.  Midnight is not a physical thing, it's just a concept people use to keep track of time.

Let's say that typical JP "doesn't matter if it makes sense so long as it looks / sounds cool" logic applies here.  Why on earth would Julius even need to seal the castle away?  How was 1999 any different from the zillions of times the Belmonts and others have killed Dracula?  Even if there was some huge disaster that required him to break the cycle of rebirth, why would the Vampire Killer be capable of sealing the castle away in the first place?  It has the soul of a thousand year old dead woman in it.  Maybe it holds a grudge against vampires (and Mathias, in particular), but that doesn't really equate to "moon / sun shadow sealing".

This is the main problem I have with JP design.  They always come up with ideas without trying to rationalize them.  It's lead to some amazing things, but there have been a ton of really inane ideas, as well.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Nagumo on October 11, 2014, 10:23:33 AM
I always love abstracts concepts like that, I think because mythology is also full of similar things. It kind of challenges your imagination and I like that. You probably intented it as a mocking example, but sealing Dracula's castle in midnight sounds pretty cool to me, too.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: theplottwist on October 11, 2014, 12:30:17 PM
How about the concept of "sealing" anything inside of an eclipse?  An eclipse isn't a physical entity.  It's the result of sun or the moon being directly in front of one another.  There is nothing to seal anything in.  It's like saying he sealed the castle in 12 midnight.  Midnight is not a physical thing, it's just a concept people use to keep track of time.

I always asked myself this too! But ya see, I do think that the ecclipse would be worked to be "opened a portal into" concept of some sort if a game were to be made. Like Nagumo mentioned, I like the abstract nature of this idea.

Quote
Let's say that typical JP "doesn't matter if it makes sense so long as it looks / sounds cool" logic applies here.  Why on earth would Julius even need to seal the castle away?  How was 1999 any different from the zillions of times the Belmonts and others have killed Dracula?  Even if there was some huge disaster that required him to break the cycle of rebirth, why would the Vampire Killer be capable of sealing the castle away in the first place?  It has the soul of a thousand year old dead woman in it.  Maybe it holds a grudge against vampires (and Mathias, in particular), but that doesn't really equate to "moon / sun shadow sealing".

This is the main problem I have with JP design.  They always come up with ideas without trying to rationalize them.  It's lead to some amazing things, but there have been a ton of really inane ideas, as well.

Giant wall of text containing a good amount of wild mass guessing with some true Castlevania facts, trying to explain the eclipse + castle connection, and why is Julius needed there. You've been warned.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on October 11, 2014, 02:50:57 PM
Read the big wall of text.  Interesting.
One thing to note is, if the ritual is done as soon as Dracula is defeated, then I believe it would've gone like this:

Jullius (over wireless device): I did it!  Dracula is defeated!  The castle is beginning to crumble.  I have to run to where I think the source of his power is.
Mina's Family: "Run! You only have a few minutes before the castle starts to crumble away.  We need the castle somewhat intact!
Julius: Roger!  I'm taking the whip to where I  feel the power is at its strongest.
Alucard: I and the Belnades's will use our powers to teleport you to safety before the spell is complete.  DO NOT GET STUCK IN THE CASTLE!
Julius: Agreed, Over & Out!

Julius goes to the spot in the Floating Garden, where the rift to the Chaos Realm is located.  He places the whip on the doorway.  A giant blast of power unexpectedly blasts Julius clear across the room, across the pillared walkway, and out to the Floating Garden.  Alucard and the Belnades see this and take it as a sign that the deed is done, and together, cast a spell to teleport Julius away just in the nick of time, as the Castle gets sealed in the perpetual penumbra of the eclipse.

As Julius awakens, it turns out the blast of power, combined with the concussion at the end of the blast, have scattered his senses a bit, and he can no longer remember what just happened.  He can only 'feel' the powers, as this was an innate ability his clan has.

This is the reason why, in 2035, when Soma and Mina get teleported to the Castle, possibly through some coincidence in power lines, or whatever, the Castle is in a constant state of disrepair.  The Castle Corridor is Ruined, and other locations are even more broken than usual; the Castle was on its way to crumble and ruin when the events of 1999 took place.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: X on October 11, 2014, 03:24:20 PM
Quote
This is the reason why, in 2035, when Soma and Mina get teleported to the Castle, possibly through some coincidence in power lines, or whatever, the Castle is in a constant state of disrepair.  The Castle Corridor is Ruined, and other locations are even more broken than usual; the Castle was on its way to crumble and ruin when the events of 1999 took place.

And Julius added to the damage later on when he executed his Grand Cross attack. That big wall of text was interesting to read. Liked the story bit Jorge. Yeah, everything would have to run like clockwork in order to seal up Castlevania and for Julius not to get trapped in there was well.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Akumajou Jason XX on October 11, 2014, 07:43:48 PM
Very interesting replies, guys!  Truth be told, the backstory for Aria always felt to me like one of the most contrived parts of the entire Castlevania mythos.  This helps it make a lot more sense, though.  Granted, I 100% believe that Konami and IGA never truly thought any of this through to these levels, but so long as they never contradict your theory, I can live with it.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: BLOOD MONKEY on October 11, 2014, 10:40:48 PM
Found an even bigger plothole: Death shouldn't exist. Why? Because: At the end of PoR, Dracula absorbed and destroyed Death. Therefore, Death shouldn't exist.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Inccubus on October 12, 2014, 12:48:49 AM
Technically an eclipse is a physically definable thing.
The fact that it is a transient effect is what makes it a good place to seal something.
Besides, you can't evaluate magic by the laws of physics since by it's very nature and definition magic is beyond our understanding of physics.
In other words, it isn't supposed to make sense. :P
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Akumajou Jason XX on October 12, 2014, 01:24:18 AM
The sun or moon moving directly in front of one another is a physical thing, but an eclipse itself is a concept and not a physical thing.  Also, magic has rules just like anything else, they're just different from standard natural rules.

There are people out there who can just kind of hand-wave stuff that doesn't add up, but I've always been a stickler for details when it comes to stories.  More power to the people who don't let that sort of thing bug them, though.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on October 12, 2014, 03:49:39 AM
Found an even bigger plothole: Death shouldn't exist. Why? Because: At the end of PoR, Dracula absorbed and destroyed Death. Therefore, Death shouldn't exist.

I think the absorption of Death was just temporary and they separated again after Drac was defeated. Death can reappear anytime he wishes.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Inccubus on October 12, 2014, 11:52:22 AM
The sun or moon moving directly in front of one another is a physical thing, but an eclipse itself is a concept and not a physical thing.  Also, magic has rules just like anything else, they're just different from standard natural rules.

There are people out there who can just kind of hand-wave stuff that doesn't add up, but I've always been a stickler for details when it comes to stories.  More power to the people who don't let that sort of thing bug them, though.

The sun being blocked out by the sun and casting a shadow on the surface of Earth is a physical thing with defined dimensions that change over the time of it's duration.
That is an eclipse (noun) which is not a concept.
You can become so much better at something than another person to the point that they are ignored and no longer "seen" in this matter.
That is an eclipse (verb) which is a concept.
The part you can't wrap your head around, I'm guessing, is sealing a physical entity inside what amounts to a massive shadow.
Now magically sealing something inside a shadow that's a concept that would make any physicist's head implode. ; )

Think of it like this, do you know the technical details and physics of how quantum entanglement works.
Neither did Einstein who called it "spooky action at a distance".
In fact, Einstein and his colleagues though that the effect should be impossible, but it has been verified that the effects of quantum entanglement are real.
So for all intents and purposes it might as well be magic since it currently goes against our understanding of physics.
In short... that shit is voodoo and you have no choice but to accept the reality of it.

So in the world of Castlevania there is a way to seal things inside an eclipse, you have no choice but to accept it because you saw it's effect in that world by way of the game you interfaced that world with. :3

But if you still need to rationalize it in physics terms, then think of it like this:
Somehow the area of the shadow caused by the moon eclipsing the sun was turned into an event horizon for a wormhole connecting Earth to somewhere far away and the castle and the entire cliff it was sitting on were transported through this wormhole. : ()

Either way it's not a plot hole. ^V^
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Belmontoya on October 12, 2014, 12:49:39 PM
Plot holes in the Igaverse of CV? No way...  ;)
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on October 12, 2014, 02:25:35 PM
I think the absorption of Death was just temporary and they separated again after Drac was defeated. Death can reappear anytime he wishes.
I think it's similar to the fusion techniques in DBZ. They can merge to become one powerful enemy, but still are individuals.

Regarding the eclipse thing, I think it's a part of mysticism. Some lore and mysticism tell of certain gates to "other worlds" that can only be open via certain means, like astological alignment or time of the year where our world passes through the certain spot in space where these portals exist. Some think even the coming of the night acts as the means to unveil these "holes"/"gates" and allow spirits to enter our world. I know some places in the Southwest(namely Arizona and New Mexico) where the Native Americans believed of certain spots where the dead/spirits could enter the world and are highly active at night(both attacking people and causing mischief). Celtic people believed in "thin places", areas of the world where the realm of the living overlaps with the realm of the spirits and those of the spirit realm can cross over(places that are "haunted" or cursed, as well as places of great magical potency). I mean, given the time of year we're in, Samhain and Dia de los Muertos all revolved around a superstitious belief that it was a certain time in the year where the dead could return to the world of the living(for a limited time only). Interestingly enough, bringing up Halloween(the movie series), one of John Carpenter's early reasons for Michael Myers going on a killing spree was that he felt Michael was ultra-sensitive to in influx of spirits during Samhain/Halloween, and it caused him to go "dark"(basically lose himself to his inhuman persona).

I think it's a sort've similar take on multi-cultural mysticism. I don't see Dracula's Castle being sealed within the PHYSICAL eclipse more than the qualifications to open a specific portal can ONLY be met with the eclipse and that's where Dracula's Castle is sealed.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Akumajou Jason XX on October 12, 2014, 05:27:37 PM
I think it's a sort've similar take on multi-cultural mysticism. I don't see Dracula's Castle being sealed within the PHYSICAL eclipse more than the qualifications to open a specific portal can ONLY be met with the eclipse and that's where Dracula's Castle is sealed.

This makes much more sense.  Thank you!
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Inccubus on October 12, 2014, 11:34:31 PM
I think it's similar to the fusion techniques in DBZ. They can merge to become one powerful enemy, but still are individuals.

Regarding the eclipse thing, I think it's a part of mysticism. Some lore and mysticism tell of certain gates to "other worlds" that can only be open via certain means, like astological alignment or time of the year where our world passes through the certain spot in space where these portals exist. Some think even the coming of the night acts as the means to unveil these "holes"/"gates" and allow spirits to enter our world. I know some places in the Southwest(namely Arizona and New Mexico) where the Native Americans believed of certain spots where the dead/spirits could enter the world and are highly active at night(both attacking people and causing mischief). Celtic people believed in "thin places", areas of the world where the realm of the living overlaps with the realm of the spirits and those of the spirit realm can cross over(places that are "haunted" or cursed, as well as places of great magical potency). I mean, given the time of year we're in, Samhain and Dia de los Muertos all revolved around a superstitious belief that it was a certain time in the year where the dead could return to the world of the living(for a limited time only). Interestingly enough, bringing up Halloween(the movie series), one of John Carpenter's early reasons for Michael Myers going on a killing spree was that he felt Michael was ultra-sensitive to in influx of spirits during Samhain/Halloween, and it caused him to go "dark"(basically lose himself to his inhuman persona).

I think it's a sort've similar take on multi-cultural mysticism. I don't see Dracula's Castle being sealed within the PHYSICAL eclipse more than the qualifications to open a specific portal can ONLY be met with the eclipse and that's where Dracula's Castle is sealed.

I'm reminded of that huge boulder with the  'doorway' carved into it in South America that the local shaman refer to as the star gate.

And well put, my friend.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Dracula9 on October 13, 2014, 12:07:27 AM
Found an even bigger plothole: Death shouldn't exist. Why? Because: At the end of PoR, Dracula absorbed and destroyed Death. Therefore, Death shouldn't exist.

Death in the Castlevania series is essentially a series of physical avatars for the actual force of Death. Since Death cannot be killed, as he is a fundamental part of the cycle of life and the universe (or implied in LoI that he has 'divine powers,' indicating a connection to God which also puts him high on the no-kill list), all that can be done is destroying his physical avatars and thus weakening his ability to manifest himself for a time. I don't think Death just twiddles his thumbs while Drac's dead, he still has to go about his business everywhere else; because of this, I theorize that Death has access to countless physical avatars all over the world, but he reserves the strongest puppet for when Dracula is alive. With this idea in mind, it can be assumed that this super-body takes time to build up in strength, and this is what Death does during Drac's periods of 'death.' Once that super-body is destroyed by a Belmont or whomever else, it can't be whipped back into existence as Death's theoretical 'common reaper' avatars can. It takes however long is necessary to recreate that powerful avatar, and Death stows it away for the day his bro wakes up again.

This theory could also be tied into Death being an agent of Chaos, since death as a process, and the decomposition that comes with it, could be considered a form of entropy. Entropy being an essential part of Chaos, Death could potentially be an agent of entropy, and thus due to THIS connection with an even more fundamental part of of the universe, Death can't truly be killed.

I think Dracula absorbing his 'power' in PoR isn't so much him absorbing Death's fundamental soul and essence (yes, I know he says "Soul Steal" when doing it, but that's just the name given to that ability), but the immense power and fragmented soul-of-sorts contained within that super-body.

tl;dr you can't kill Death. Unless Abdul Alhazred is involved.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: theANdROId on October 13, 2014, 02:14:12 AM
So, death has a day job (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaKxLJLj19E#ws)!  One needs gold even in hell these days...or so I've heard. ;-) 
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Akumajou Jason XX on October 13, 2014, 02:32:44 AM
One thing that's always bugged me about any story that involves "Death", demons, hell, ghosts, etc. is the fact that it only ever really deals with the "bad" aspects of the afterlife.  It's always about the bad things that happen when people die.  Hardly anyone ever goes up into some form of "Heaven", and even if they do, you never see or hear of a literal "god's" involvement. 

I can fully understand the reasons behind this sort of practice, but let's face it.  If ghosts exist, this confirms the existence of an afterlife of some sort.  If you can go to Hell, you can go to Heaven.  If there's a Heaven, there's a god. 

So...god's just sitting around, chillin'?  Drinkin' a Bud?  Some people might say that god works through others by giving people like the Belmonts the power they need to fight evil.  This seems like a pretty weak explanation.  Evil can have obvious physical manifestations, but good has to work through subtle machinations?

Not something that bothers me TOO much when it comes to Castlevania, but it's something that's always in the back of my mind with that sort of premise.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Dracula9 on October 13, 2014, 02:36:29 AM
Quote from: Jason X
So...god's just sitting around, chillin'?  Drinkin' a Bud?  Some people might say that god works through others by giving people like the Belmonts the power they need to fight evil.  This seems like a pretty weak explanation.  Evil can have obvious physical manifestations, but good has to work through subtle machinations?

Very simple answer to that. People will bitch more about a deus ex machina being involved than they will over a botched dichotomy. It's barely fair and makes even less sense, but that's one reason.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Akumajou Jason XX on October 13, 2014, 03:07:59 AM
That definitely makes sense, but I'd say it's more likely because nobody wants to depict god in any way, shape, or form.  Somehow you can talk about the devil and hell all you want, but god is off limits.

That's one of the things I always really appreciated about the Shin Megami Tensei series.  God and the Devil are literal beings in that universe, and they both have positive and negative traits.  Everyone else is just stuck in the middle of their dick measuring contest.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: X on October 13, 2014, 06:20:35 AM
Quote
That definitely makes sense, but I'd say it's more likely because nobody wants to depict god in any way, shape, or form.  Somehow you can talk about the devil and hell all you want, but god is off limits.

We all create god in our own mind's imagination, so 'he'/'she'/'it' can be anything. It all depends on the individual in question. Unlike the devil (satan) who was given a very clear image classification, god was not. Maybe they avoid showing or describing him cause they don't want to offend other people's personal interpretations of what god could be for them.

Quote
Everyone else is just stuck in the middle of their dick measuring contest.

And that's pretty much how it is in real life too, lol.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Koutei on October 13, 2014, 09:43:08 AM
There is a myth called Amano-Iwato in Japan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amano-Iwato (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amano-Iwato)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu)

An ancient Japanese thought that it saw the solar eclipse, and hid the goddess of the sun in the cave.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Nagumo on October 13, 2014, 10:49:53 AM
^Mina also tells Soma about that legend in AoS. Amaterasu, the sun goddess, hides from Susanoo in a cave. As a result, the world becomes dark, which subdues Susanoo's anger. Because of that, the power of an eclipse is said to seal away evil intentions, according to Mina. Hence, the Habuka family's magic has "the power to control even gods".
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: theANdROId on October 13, 2014, 12:27:12 PM
...Somehow you can talk about the devil and hell all you want, but god is off limits...

...People will bitch more about a deus ex machina being involved than they will over a botched dichotomy. It's barely fair and makes even less sense, but that's one reason.

Personally, I think the bigger reason is as Drac9 said -- if you start going into too much detail on God, or using Him too much, people start to gripe about it because it obviously means you're being preachy and trying to force your view of religion on them.  I often hear the complaint of some group "pushing their agenda"...I'm sure that is the case sometimes, but I don't see why that has to be the case all of the time.  Art is going to be influenced by the likes, beliefs, and personality of the artist, as well as by real life events and situations, but that doesn't mean the end goal was to sway your opinion.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Claimh Solais on October 13, 2014, 05:17:32 PM
One thing that's always bugged me about any story that involves "Death", demons, hell, ghosts, etc. is the fact that it only ever really deals with the "bad" aspects of the afterlife.  It's always about the bad things that happen when people die.  Hardly anyone ever goes up into some form of "Heaven", and even if they do, you never see or hear of a literal "god's" involvement. 

I can fully understand the reasons behind this sort of practice, but let's face it.  If ghosts exist, this confirms the existence of an afterlife of some sort.  If you can go to Hell, you can go to Heaven.  If there's a Heaven, there's a god. 

So...god's just sitting around, chillin'?  Drinkin' a Bud?  Some people might say that god works through others by giving people like the Belmonts the power they need to fight evil.  This seems like a pretty weak explanation.  Evil can have obvious physical manifestations, but good has to work through subtle machinations?

Not something that bothers me TOO much when it comes to Castlevania, but it's something that's always in the back of my mind with that sort of premise.

This could be because Castlevania is a series that deals with the darker and more chaotic aspects of the supernatural. The plots always involve some kind of chaos and endangerment to the universe as a whole. But then the endings are more peaceful. At the end of Symphony, we see Dracula passing on, and at the end of LoS1, we see all that heavenly power and whatnot of Gabriel.

Essentially, the more heavenly aspects aren't touched on as much because that's just not what the series is about. At least, that's my opinion.

That definitely makes sense, but I'd say it's more likely because nobody wants to depict god in any way, shape, or form.  Somehow you can talk about the devil and hell all you want, but god is off limits.

That's one of the things I always really appreciated about the Shin Megami Tensei series.  God and the Devil are literal beings in that universe, and they both have positive and negative traits.  Everyone else is just stuck in the middle of their dick measuring contest.

This is actually quite like Soul Calibur and Soul Edge in the Soul series. They are both perceived at the surface like how most people perceive (at the surface) God and the devil. Calibur is righteous and pure, and seeks only to vanquish evil, and Edge is a destructive force that seeks only to cover the world in disorder.

But then Soul Calibur IV shows off more about it, like with the fact that Calibur is the sort of lawful good, I guess. Where it will retain the peace and order of the world, even if that involves doing something that is morally unjust. And that there actually characters (Cassandra in particular) who feels the world would be better off without either sword.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Dracula9 on October 13, 2014, 06:14:09 PM
^Mina also tells Soma about that legend in AoS. Amaterasu, the sun goddess, hides from Susanoo in a cave. As a result, the world becomes dark, which subdues Susanoo's anger. Because of that, the power of an eclipse is said to seal away evil intentions, according to Mina. Hence, the Habuka family's magic has "the power to control even gods".

I'd totally forgotten that legend.

Dracula for Storm God 2035.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Lelygax on October 13, 2014, 07:43:32 PM
You visit a old Dracula's Castle on Bloodlines, so why nobody here seems to remember about this? :P

Without a owner, Castlevania remains the same, we can see it in CV2 too.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: theplottwist on October 13, 2014, 08:03:13 PM
You visit a old Dracula's Castle on Bloodlines, so why nobody here seems to remember about this? :P

Without a owner, Castlevania remains the same, we can see it in CV2 too.

That's... Not entirelly reliable...

You see, we know that Dracula's Castle appears when Dracula is about to come back. We also know that it can be summoned right before Dracula is back. This seems to be the case in Bloodlines. The castle seems to be in awfully good shape with no Dracula there, but we know that Elizabeth Bathory and Drolta are pursuing Dracula's ressurrection. It being there may have been Elizabeth's doing.

And in CVII, it's in total disrepair. There is nothing above ground level, only subterranean catacombs. When the castle collapses, I find it plausible for it to look just like it does in CV2.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Akumajou Jason XX on October 13, 2014, 09:42:29 PM
^Mina also tells Soma about that legend in AoS. Amaterasu, the sun goddess, hides from Susanoo in a cave. As a result, the world becomes dark, which subdues Susanoo's anger. Because of that, the power of an eclipse is said to seal away evil intentions, according to Mina. Hence, the Habuka family's magic has "the power to control even gods".

Ah, very true.  It's been seven years since I last played Aria, so my memories of the entire plot are sketchy at best.  The Amaterasu legend certainly helps tie it all together a bit more.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: jestercolony on October 13, 2014, 09:43:41 PM
The Castle itself may be an actual demonic entity, but it might be possible that after the Castle was sealed off into an eclipse it lost its ability to rebuild itself and stays the same? I mean, since it is sealed off, its not apart of the actual material plane, so it doesn't need to shapeshift or something. Just throwing my two cents in :P
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 13, 2014, 11:16:26 PM
Castlevania itself is a creature of darkness, so wouldn't sealing the Castle inside the eclipse be sealing the creature? It may be unable to change and shapeshift because of the seal. Just maybe sealing the VK inside also attributed to this.

Also, after the destruction of Dracula in 1999, is it necessary that Castlevania manifests when The Dark Lord's return is imminent? If so, during the events of DOS, there was still potential for Castlevania to return during these events, the point of luring Soma to Celia's fortress (the replica of Castlevania) was to awaken the Dark Lord.
Maybe because the original Castle is still sealed inside the eclipse it will rarely be seen again, but this would mean the new Dark Lord can still manifest regardless.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Inccubus on October 14, 2014, 02:34:23 AM
The Vampire Killer is probably suppressing it's chaotic power. Makes sense to me.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Lelygax on October 14, 2014, 03:55:04 AM
You see, we know that Dracula's Castle appears when Dracula is about to come back.

It seems that you misunderstood the concept, only in some games Castlevania vanishes completely or crumbles totally, you can see it in Curse of Darkness too, you can even explore some areas.

We also know that it can be summoned right before Dracula is back. This seems to be the case in Bloodlines. The castle seems to be in awfully good shape with no Dracula there, but we know that Elizabeth Bathory and Drolta are pursuing Dracula's ressurrection. It being there may have been Elizabeth's doing.

Awfully good shape? What about the castle keep? It seems to be more like a abandoned castle to me.

And in CVII, it's in total disrepair. There is nothing above ground level, only subterranean catacombs. When the castle collapses, I find it plausible for it to look just like it does in CV2.

Sure, because this time it totally crumbled.

In AoS we can see that the entrance area is crumbling. Think about Castlevania as a body, without Dracula its like a empty shell, it stay there unchanged so what remains of it, stays there.
Title: Re: AoS plothole
Post by: Abnormal Freak on October 14, 2014, 04:27:23 AM
aos hole