Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: crisis on November 12, 2014, 09:40:21 PM
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is it debatable that Draculas power exceeds Dracula himself
i mean, his castle is pretty much it's own entity, but how? despite dracula being "permanently" destroyed, his castle still thrives. if julius & co. were so powerful & managed to separate Draculas soul from his magic, then why couldnt they destroy it completely rather than seal it? even tho they were victorious, they still failed since the threat of Castlevania still exists
i mean, isnt the castle no more than an extension of Draculas demonic will? his castle is literally his power manifest. even when dracula was "dead," the castle can still be revived throughout the centuries becuz Dracula still technically exists, just not within the physical plane*. dracula is the prince of darkness, "chaos" incarnate; without the source there to fuel it, how can it still exist? maybe im missing something
*which is why i love how the fact LoS2 somewhat illustrated this concept; the essence of the castle doesnt want him to leave, because his power "gives them life." he is the battery that fuels the machine, without the battery, the machine is useless
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if julius & co. were so powerful & managed to separate Draculas soul from his magic, then why couldnt they destroy it completely rather than seal it?
Magic is something of a more ethereal nature and does not conform to the basis of 'physical' law so to speak. Magic can be dispersed, separated, twisted, even changed, but it is never destroyed. Castlevania itself is a product of Dracula's magic given form and substance, however it is still a magical entity and cannot be destroyed by any means 'physical'. I believe this is why the only way to 'get rid of it' was to seal it away in the eclipse.
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i mean, his castle is pretty much it's own entity, but how? despite dracula being "permanently" destroyed, his castle still thrives. if julius & co. were so powerful & managed to separate Draculas soul from his magic, then why couldnt they destroy it completely rather than seal it? even tho they were victorious, they still failed since the threat of Castlevania still exists
Firstly, I see Dracula's Castle as a separate entity altogether, created by Dracula to ensure that darkness thrives. Chaos fuels the castle. Imagine that the castle is a very complex gun, undestroyable, and Dracula is the robber that assembled the gun using his power. Dracula is powerful as long as he holds said gun, but once separated from it, he's unable to defend himself. Even if killed, the gun still exists, but now it can't "shoot" as there is no one that knows its complex inner workings to properly use it.
The castle might be undestroyable indeed.
Also, one thing: You see how the castle gets destroyed every time Dracula dies, but it is whole when sealed inside the eclipse? I think this happens because Dracula is connected to it and intentionally wants it to happen. Since Julius separated him from the castle, the castle "couldn't" be destroyed because there was no Dracula being killed connected to it, ordering it to crumble. The castle didn't "knew" that Dracula was destroyed, so it could crumble along too. This might be the reason why the castle was sealed in the eclipse. If there was no castle, there wouldn't be a way to seal one inside the eclipse, right?
i mean, isnt the castle no more than an extension of Draculas demonic will? his castle is literally his power manifest. even when dracula was "dead," the castle can still be revived throughout the centuries becuz Dracula still technically exists, just not within the physical plane*. dracula is the prince of darkness, "chaos" incarnate; without the source there to fuel it, how can it still exist? maybe im missing something
The castle is an extension of Dracula as long as he's connected to it. Dracula's power is the gun he made with his knowledge. But it's still a separate entity on its own.
And I think you're missing that Chaos is not Dracula, and it's Chaos fuelling the castle's existence. Chaos may have been created as a self sustaining creature slave to Dracula's will, and that feeds demonic power back to Dracula as he needs it when battling a Belmont, for instance. Also, I think Chaos' power comes from something else, not Dracula.
In fact, I think even the castle crumbling is a failsafe plan by Dracula upon his death so he can hide Chaos. As long as there is no castle to search, there is no way for anyone to find about Chaos and destroy it.
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Well, you can't destroy Chaos. It is part of the natural existence of the universe. If we lived in an orderly universe everything would soon stagnate and die because there is no Chaos to force any sort of change. It's the same with the Earth. I have no doubt that Dracula tapped into the power of raw Chaos itself in order to create Castlevania, but like you mentioned Chaos is not under Dracula's control, but nor is it some kind of monster that is hidden away. Chaos is simply Chaos; the opposite of Order.
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That's kind of how I see it, but a little different.
The castle is a creature of chaos as Alucard stated in SotN.
The castle is bound to Dracula, thus why it's physical manifestations crumble away whenever he is killed.
(Though the ending of LoI would imply that the castle can crumble away just by Dracula leaving. Perhaps he removed it's essence on purpose to put it in "storage"?)
I guess what is happening is that when Dracula is killed and his soul goes to hell the "essence" of the castle goes with him.
From what is revealed in AoS, my guess is that the reason they sealed the castle in a pocket dimension in 1999 was to separate Dracula from it.
The point was to weaken Dracula so that he could be laid to rest permanently.
You could think of the castle as a magical lens that focuses the power of chaos for Dracula to use and it is likely part of why he is in a cycle of rebirth for a thousand years.
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Basically what X and Inccubus said.
The castle is a "creature of Chaos," as told by Alucard. Now, this line was delivered years before Aria was made, so I don't quite believe the Chaos as Aria describes it was planned out during SotN's creation. That being said, I think the notion of the castle being an extension of Chaos has been around in the canon for some time. Chaos is already a perpetual and fundamental force of nature, physics, and existence. Entropy as the force of decomposition and breakdown over time can and has been easily construed into a parallel of Darkness and death. Since Dracula is undead, he contradicts the "Light" part of existence and by comparison, a part of entropy. He doesn't break down in the conventional sense (but he does, through his cyclic 'deaths'), but in being a sort of paradox of the life cycle, he perpetuates entropy and chaos by his very existence.
Given his powers as Prince of Darkness, controlling Chaos as a force would be easy as sin for him. But like any fundamental force of nature, I don't believe he has complete and utter control over it. Rather, I think that he has enough control over Chaos to grant him extensions and stat boosts, in a sense, to his already-existing powers of Darkness. In this context, I mean that Dracula has powers that - within the CV lore - can be learned by humans. Pyromancy, necromancy, teleportation, shapeshifting, life-draining, umbramancy, etc. etc. are all abilities seen and used by human foes throughout the series. Shaft being a prime example. However, his connection to Chaos amplifies these powers a hundredfold. So, I think Chaos "allows" him certain degrees of control, but being a preternatural force of the universe he can't control it fully. On that tangent of "allowing," I don't know whether to consider Chaos in the CV universe a sentient force or not. We see it in Aria as intelligent, but that could perhaps be chalked up to a core essence of Dracula's power. A guardian of his strength, as it were. I don't quite believe that Aria's Chaos is the Chaos, but rather a manifestation of Dracula's core powers created, perhaps, as a sort of lock and key for the castle.
To add on to the gun metaphor, if the castle is the gun itself, and Dracula is the gunslinger (Hellsing, anyone?), then maybe Chaos could be either the bullets or the firing pin. Without Chaos, Dracula's power is theoretically no greater than that of any human sorcerer. Without Chaos, the Castle as a living entity is nothing more than a structure of wood and stone. In this sense, Chaos is the rug that ties the whole thing together, man. Dracula without Chaos as a conduit is, in my opinion, nothing more than an extremely powerful vampire sorcerer. Chaos is what perpetuates his rebirth cycle. Chaos is what keeps his castle in order (or lack thereof) and the reason it remanifests in a different form each incarnation. I also think that, in regards to the castle's self-destruct button, Dracula has some form of control over the castle's state. IIRC there are hardly any CV games in which Dracula leaves the castle grounds, which (if I am remembering right) could mean that the physical state of the castle is directly correlated to whether or not Dracula's in it. Assuming this is the case, I think that his death and/or leaving of the grounds would most likely trigger its collapse, or at the very least weaken its supernatural abilities (i.e. monsters wouldn't spawn anymore, those that are there would become very weak, and the masters of the various sections would become considerably less formidable), because Dracula is no longer present for the castle and its inhabitants to siphon power from.
I think, really, Dracula is a tap, a font if you will, for Chaos as an entity of Darkness (and perhaps evil as well, in the CV universe anyway) to manifest in places it normally wouldn't. Based on this idea, I think this can explain why Dracula and his fortress are so deeply connected, and why it doesn't crumble in the DCW. Without Dracula on tap, the castle cannot sense whether or not he has been defeated, and thus can't tell itself to self-destruct. I think that this was discovered by the DCW crew (probably Alucard, since based on his "creature of Chaos" line likely knows the nature of the castle, assuming again this long-ass theory is probable), and was thus exploited as Dracula's only true weak point (the source and manifestation of his power is also his greatest weakness, poetic irony, no?) by having Julius isolate Dracula from the castle and cut the two off from one another and only then kill him. Without the castle to perpetuate his cycle and rebirth, and without Dracula to give the castle its true power, his cycle was ended.
I think, in considerable sum, that Dracula and his castle are mutually dependent, and in a very elaborate sense one and the same. The two together, in my opinion, form a sort of paradox, in which one cannot fully function without the other, but also whose powers stem from the other. Castlevania gets its power by Dracula's presence/existence, and Dracula has access to his full power by being within the realm of Castlevania (since it IS a pocket dimension of sorts). One cannot exist entirely without the other, but the two were also "created" by their partner. I'm beginning to go in circles, but I think the two together form a magical paradox, and because of this neither can be completely destroyed unless they are separated from their symbiosis. Points to Julius and crew for figuring out the solution to that hard-ass math problem.
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Assuming this is the case, I think that his death and/or leaving of the grounds would most likely trigger its collapse, or at the very least weaken its supernatural abilities (i.e. monsters wouldn't spawn anymore, those that are there would become very weak, and the masters of the various sections would become considerably less formidable), because Dracula is no longer present for the castle and its inhabitants to siphon power from.
How do you explain LOI where Mathias leaves the Castle and Leon fights death?
Some argue this Castle isn't Castlevania, but then this doesn't really make sense, because of this:
The Castle doesn't crumble until Death is defeated, Death is under Mathias' dominion. and if it wasn't Mathias' Castle but was going to collapse it would have after Walter was defeated.
I'm going to assume this isn't Death's Castle, and seeing as Mathias had the crimson stone and became The Lord of the Vampires, and the castle falls after he leaves and his minions have been defeated by Leon, I deduce it's Mathias' power/ The power of the Crimson Stone holding the Castle in LOI together.
This and the fact when Leon walks in it says "Castlevania"
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Note that LoI's castle isn't Castlevania, but Walter's castle.
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Note that LoI's castle isn't Castlevania, but Walter's castle.
But then shouldn't it fall when Walter is destroyed? And is there proof it's not Castlevania?
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But then shouldn't it fall when Walter is destroyed? And is there proof it's not Castlevania?
Lack of proof is not proof of the contrary.
There is heavy evidence on the franchise that Dracula's Castle was created by Dracula's dark magic. If it is the case, then there is no way Walter's castle is Dracula's Castle.
Well, you can't destroy Chaos. It is part of the natural existence of the universe. If we lived in an orderly universe everything would soon stagnate and die because there is no Chaos to force any sort of change. It's the same with the Earth. I have no doubt that Dracula tapped into the power of raw Chaos itself in order to create Castlevania, but like you mentioned Chaos is not under Dracula's control, but nor is it some kind of monster that is hidden away. Chaos is simply Chaos; the opposite of Order.
Yes you're right, Chaos is not a monster. But Dracula could STILL hide Chaos by crumbling the castle, because the entrance to get to Chaos is in the castle itself. If you crumble it, no one can get to Chaos.
And yes, I know only the dark lord can enter the chaotic realm. But it still didn't stop Julius from separating Dracula from the chaotic source. The entrance to the chaotic realm might be the physical connection that fuels the castle's existence.
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Although Walter is destroyed, examine the method in which Walter is destroyed.
He isn't quite destroyed. That is, while he himself is destroyed, his power now resides in the Crimson Stone. Death takes Walter's Soul after Leon's battle with Walter, and appears to use it as an ingredient or a catalyst to create the Crimson Stone. I imagine if the Crimson Stone is either destroyed or taken away from the magical structure that is Castlevania, that's when the structure starts to 'give' and starts collapsing upon itself.
Kind of a sad fate for Walter, as it could be interpreted as the Crimson Stone becoming a prison for his Soul, which gives the bearer of the stone the ability to both manipulate Castlevania as well as the ability to continue to return to life.
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That's one theory. But I don't believe that's as much the case.
Walter was not as powerful as Mathias would become. Not even close. He suggested that the cycle of rebirth applied to him as well, but a lack of any further explanation, as well as his palpable terror at being betrayed and killed by death, give me the impression that his rebirth(s) would not be as long-lasting as Dracula's.
Consider this as well; Walter, as far as the canon explains, did not have access to Chaos. He was what I described Dracula to be without Chaos as a font. And extremely powerful vampire sorcerer. Without the relationship with Chaos, Walter was not symbiotically bound to his Castle, and vice-versa. Granted, the castle collapses as Leon leaves, but I don't think Walter had any part of that, not directly anyway. I look at the Crimson Stone as a crucial part of Dracula's binding to Chaos, since it was the final nail in the coffin (snicker) that made Mathias into Dracula. Since Mathias had the Stone, not Walter, the powers it granted were not at Walter's disposal. They were Mathias'. Once Mathias bound Walter's soul (which he specifically states as "a powerful vampire's soul," further suggesting that Walter was just an ordinary vampire and not linked to Chaos), with Death's power as a catalyst (and Death can be considered a servant of Entropy and therefore Chaos, since his role is to a fundamental part of entropy's natural cycle, so there's the Chaos link), his doorway to Chaos was opened, as it were. His access to and powers derived from it would only grow over time and with each successive death and reincarnation.
As for why the castle didn't crumble as soon as Walter bought the farm, I don't think it was really anything to do with the same reasons Dracula's castle collapses when he's killed. Assuming here that Castlevania is separate from the Bernhard castle (and if it's not, we can chalk it up to the castle not undergoing its first death of the cycle yet, so it's still a normal castle), the Bernhard would not have collapsed because its owner died. I think that Leon destroying the physical vessel of Death itself, the various releases of immense power from Walter's death, the Stone's awakening, and the various battles Leon engaged in just took the castle out over time. Walter surely had spells of longevity over it, but it's not like there were Hunchbacks rebuilding the thing whenever a tower fell over. What damage the Bernhard castle took, I think, stayed taken.
Or maybe Mathias' infusion instantly made Bernhard castle into Castlevania, either in literal or magical sense (i.e. the no-Dracula-fall-over rule), and Mathias hung around invisibly or something to watch Death get his ass kicked, and left when Leon won, causing the castle to go "lolnope."
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But Dracula could STILL hide Chaos by crumbling the castle
Well that doesn't quite makes sense. You can't hide Chaos because its all around us; intermingling with order. Hiding the entrance to the chaosium realm that was shown in AoS would be the correct terminology. If that's what you had intended to explain I understand.
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Well, Aria does show that Chaos has a definite shape and can be attacked/destroyed.
In fact, that's why I though that Chaos was a creature, and not the embodiment of the concept of chaotic things. Chaos was physically defeated by Soma. I imagined that this creature could draw power from the concept of chaos.
Maybe it was the effect of the castle, or Dracula's magic. Either way, you missed the rest of the comment: Chaos could be hid by crumbling the castle because the entrance to leading to him would crumble along; Sure, "chaos" the concept is all around us. But no one can touch, see or interact with it as Soma did on Aria. But "Chaos" the creature sure is physical enough to take a beating and disappear, at least temporalily (as it seems that it does return on that Ricordanza of God Abyss).
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Walter's castle is still standing in the ending, but isn't there a cinematic where the place starts to crumble and Leon quickly has to leave?
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Walter's castle is still standing in the ending, but isn't there a cinematic where the place starts to crumble and Leon quickly has to leave?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C8NES_Xg_Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C8NES_Xg_Q)
@1:16-1:37
@2:10 you can see the castle is in ruin, only the outer wall and the bridge is still standing.
I still believe the Castle is linked to Mathias. If it was just a regular Castle that wasn't bound together by Dark magic then it should have remained standing after Death was destroyed. If that magic was Walter's then it should have started crumbling after he was defeated/ after he was absorbed into the Crimson stone.
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For real: Because they wouldnt have more Castlevania games without Castlevania AND DraculaxD
You can even say that some games doesnt even show Dracula's Castle, but even so the castle still exists.
In-game: You need to think about it out of the box guys, Castlevania is a Demon Castle, its a monster more or less. Its not a bunch of stones, so maybe it only crumbles when it master wants it to, or when there is no master to give orders.
Look at PoR, Brauner could destroy the castle easily because he is indeed the master at said time. But when he was killed, Dracula regained control again. We can assume that the same thing happened in LoI with Mathias gaining control of this castle.
SotN is another example, if Richter dies the castle is destroyed. It wouldn't be easier to Shaft let Richter die and still ressurect Dracula? The problem is that he simply can't since Richter was the actual Castlevania's master.
HoD shows the same thing with Maxim.
AoS is different and that is the coolest thing, since the castle is acting alone and trying to lure a new master.
I've never played much of these LoS games so I dont know if they have borrowed some element or something like that.
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The one thing I really like about LoS is the way they portray Castlevania in LoS2 as an entity bound to Gabriel.
It was a far more fleshed out relationship than any before.
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SotN is another example, if Richter dies the castle is destroyed. It wouldn't be easier to Shaft let Richter die and still ressurect Dracula? The problem is that he simply can't since Richter was the actual Castlevania's master.
No, the castle which Richter is the master of is technically not Castlevania. Alucard/ Richter discuss this after Richter is saved and it's mentioned Drac is in "that castle over there". The 2 castles are inversions of one another and connected by the throne room, that's it. If the warp portals(keyholes) transported Alucard between the 2 castles, then this would be a different story, but they don't, the 2 castles are separate entities.
That's exactly what shaft wanted. It would have been easier for Richter to die and for shaft to resurrect Dracula. However, shaft couldn't destroy Richter, therefore the best he could do was to control him. He may have also known Alucard would rise (maybe not?) but he didn't expect Richter to be saved, nor would he want him to. The fact that you have to find the holy goggles to save Richter infers this.
As well as the fact Shaft says that you're "too late", Dracula's resurrection has begun. Shaft would have much preferred that Richter died, this would have made Dracula's resurrection much easier for him (for example Richter dying during the events of Rondo/ Rondo).
I also believe that if Shaft wasn't controlling Richter, Alucard would have been killed by him. I'm not saying Alucard is weak, I'm saying he's weaker than Richter, who has already destroyed Dracula once.
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Well, canonically, Alucard took Dracula out once before too. But I don't know if the canon states who delivered the finishing blow/the most overall damage of the CVIII cast. It could also be suggested that Alucard "needed" three other people to take his dad down.
Not contesting Richter's badassery, though. Guy's second only to Julius.
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No, the castle which Richter is the master of is technically not Castlevania. Alucard/ Richter discuss this after Richter is saved and it's mentioned Drac is in "that castle over there". The 2 castles are inversions of one another and connected by the throne room, that's it. If the warp portals(keyholes) transported Alucard between the 2 castles, then this would be a different story, but they don't, the 2 castles are separate entities.
They weren't separate entities IMO since one needs the another to exist.
That's exactly what shaft wanted. It would have been easier for Richter to die and for shaft to resurrect Dracula. However, shaft couldn't destroy Richter, therefore the best he could do was to control him. He may have also known Alucard would rise (maybe not?) but he didn't expect Richter to be saved, nor would he want him to. The fact that you have to find the holy goggles to save Richter infers this.
As well as the fact Shaft says that you're "too late", Dracula's resurrection has begun. Shaft would have much preferred that Richter died, this would have made Dracula's resurrection much easier for him (for example Richter dying during the events of Rondo/ Rondo).
Except that Shaft himself told that he is using Richter as watchdog, while they never say that any of these 2 castles aren't Castlevania. If he wanted to kill Richter he could've easily make him fall in a pit, knowing that pits kill Belmonts :P
Also I dont think that Shaft was awaiting Alucard, in fact he says as if Alucard wasn't accounted in his plans, since otherwise Richter would act as a watchdog until Dracula's ressurection.
I also believe that if Shaft wasn't controlling Richter, Alucard would have been killed by him. I'm not saying Alucard is weak, I'm saying he's weaker than Richter, who has already destroyed Dracula once.
I was not even saying who could kill who, I was saying that if Richter dies in the game, Castlevania is destroyed. We see it on the screen, it happens, simply as that :P (if Konami wasnt lazy they would atleast have done another video showing the inverted castle being destroyed too, but since they only did one CG for that, we can assume that these 2 were destroyed at the same time, even more because a light came from above and the inverted castle was in the radius of that light)