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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Dracula9 on March 19, 2015, 03:06:12 AM

Title: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on March 19, 2015, 03:06:12 AM
Apologies in advance if this has been gone over before (probably has) but as time goes on it pisses me off more and more.

Satan's redesign.

Why.

Why the hell would you think it was a fantastic idea to take a rather beautiful (darkly so, but still beautiful IMO) design which echoes of Renaissance design and Dore's art style for the Comedy, and turn it into a generic and just plain horrible-looking pro-wrestler design with pointless armor, a mouth way too big for the head it's on, and butt wings?

I mean fuck, LoS1 Satan looked the part and then some. No armor, no accessories, nothing to abstract. Just a naked guy wreathed in shadow, with a physique reminiscent of Michelangelo's David, covered in black veins to perhaps symbolize his corruption; those hauntingly creepy eyes against skin so pale his musculature and facial definition become hard to make out at times, emphasizing in a sense his lack of humanity. He looked like a Deceiver or Corrupter, with a dark beauty which falls away only when it's too late.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette4.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fcastlevania%2Fimages%2F5%2F59%2FCV-LoS_Satan_650x.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20101009173659&hash=005656f958e241422b3b1530e257effcbbcbfa8f)

Just look at that handsome devil (snicker).

Then there's this ugly piece of shit. (http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/castlevania/images/6/6a/Satan_Leviathan02.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140823170145)

Super macho, mouth way too big, butt wings, and armor that makes no sense at all given his fighting style (or rather Alucard's). They turned eerie and haunting eyes into totally non-threatening crystal blue ones, and buffed him up for no explained reason. Did he spend a thousand years bench-pressing for his rematch with Apollo Cre - I mean, Gabriel? Were thousands of years of corruption and control over countless dark arts suddenly worthless? Did the Mr. Olympia body somehow amp all those powers up to eleven?

And don't even get me started on the fucking ending of Lords 2.
(click to show/hide)

I could complain more about this shit, but I'll just let one of the better redesigns (muuuch better, mmmm) of Lords 2 sum it up for me.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcM38xVI.png&hash=8151243ed22e61ba5353eec3169597ffa11068bb)

Sorries again if needlessly resurrecting an old topic.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Chernabogue on March 19, 2015, 04:35:06 AM
And don't forget ALvarez changed the ending so no fight against this magnificent Dragon form:
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette3.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fcastlevania%2Fimages%2Fb%2Fb7%2FSatan_early_concept_final_boss.png&hash=2229381a41b8cd615c25df0cf7730d79b97e5e79)
(Source: The Art of CV: LoS)
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on March 19, 2015, 04:38:03 AM
SEE THAT I WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE WITH

BECAUSE THAT THING AT LEAST WOULD HAVE HAD AN ACTUAL SUPER-DRAMATIC DEATH SEQUENCE

BUT NO

HE JUST FALLS OVER

*flips table*

I swear, this one thing bothers me more than most of the shit in all three games combined.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: VladCT on March 19, 2015, 04:52:46 AM
Maybe he somehow managed to smoke his own pride? :V
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on March 19, 2015, 04:53:44 AM
...I suddenly am compelled to make a comic of that.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Flame on March 19, 2015, 05:31:50 AM
I wasnt really bothered by the NANOMACHINES, SON- redesign, I thought it was alright.

I mean, Satan got his ass kicked by Gabriel, so he's obviously been lifting for the inevitable rematch.

what bothers me more, is how WASTED the design was. you never fight super Satan. You fight Alucard and then Satan gets shanked like a bitch.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on March 19, 2015, 05:38:28 AM
Maybe that's it, maybe Satan got injected with SINNOMACHINES, SON.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: JR on March 19, 2015, 05:41:39 AM
Eh, to be totally honest, I marked out when I saw Satan in LoS2, but that's because he had a Danzig-esque look to him. Those things he has on his legs look overdone and silly, but I liked the rest of his design.

The thing that annoyed me was how they gave him that design, and you didn't get to fight him as such. Just the whole final battle in itself was a letdown.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on March 19, 2015, 05:46:11 AM
That's part of it, too. All that buffing-up and all he does is possess your kid. He doesn't have a super tough final form either, so there's no point in the redesign. It serves no purpose and just looks like a bad Darksiders knockoff.

I still much prefer the first game's Satan. He wasn't way over-the-top like Nanosatan, and he fit the character. To me, Nanosatan tried too hard to be something that wasn't gonna make it in anyway, and was ultimately so over-the-top in design that I don't really even see the character in it anymore. He looks like a scrapped Darksiders character, not Satan.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: zaxiou on March 19, 2015, 09:21:16 AM
Looking at that dragon design and how pathetically they offed Satan it feels obvious sequel bait. They were hoping for LOS2 to get recognition enough to bring him back through random acolyte nonsense. Father and son unite to fight Santa's final coming in the future. Though it would be kind of cool to get a LOS3 where you're playing as the new Belmont in the future with Gabriel & Alucard to help you out against Mega Dragon Satan in a whole new castle built by his acolytes for his resurrection. By another studio since Mercury steam probably won't be able to pull that off.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on March 19, 2015, 10:28:04 AM
Satan's confirmed by Box of Cox to be dead, no chance of that anyway.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: zaxiou on March 19, 2015, 10:39:45 AM
For now, but by the power of vidya logic they can bring him back.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Anglachel on March 19, 2015, 12:52:36 PM
Why not? He explained Alucard so well.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: TatteredSeraph on March 19, 2015, 05:13:24 PM
It was one of the things which I found to be teh biggest let down.  The figth was anticlimactic, too easy, and not interesting enough, unlike the first fight, which was superb.  This one felt like a button-smasher, everything they claimed this game couldn't be, unlike the fight in 1, which was intelligent and tactical, especially after the prelude to it in the Silver Warrior Pan fight, which remains my favourite boss batle of the trilogy.  I'd have loved to have Satan take multiple forms, with the possession stage being the final part or penultimate, where it leaves Gabe in a real predicament, it's a heart-wrenching gambit.  You think that Satan's been defeated, after an epic clashing of light and shadow / void and chaos magic hearkening back to the first confrontation.  The possession could come either before or after the epic 7 headed dragon form, in which Gabriel also has to take to the skies in draconic form.
 The setting was also a bit lame. I hated the design of the Leviathan, and the look as they're fighting in space just came across as a bit daft.  Much more epic would have been to set it before Dracula's throne. show it as a battle for the title of Prince of Darkness, and then maybe for some of the fight, have it be transported to the gates of Hell, and in front of Lucifer's throne, with the lines of reality almost blurred. 
  I also hate Satan's redesign in general.  He looked crap, especially compared to just how perfect he looked in 1.  His weird eye colour change also didn't make much sense.  Beefcake Satan just..... just lacked a lot, and he lost that sinister thing you'd expect of him, looking fair and beautiful, but with that undercurrent of corruption that snakes it's way in, showing his true nature.

  As for Carmilla, while I mostly quite liked her redesign as a facade of her 'humanity', in comparison to her dark, Lord of the Vampires, appearance, which I loved, I found the huge tits a bit of a distraction in a bad way.  They were too in your face, even though they do sort of work considering what Carmilla is - a seductress.  However, not everyone appreciates an eyefull of tits.

  I think Alucard's redesign was one of my favourites in the series.  He looked fantastic, especially after they made him look pale and bloodless, as opposed to almost looking like a drow elf. :)  I love this version of Al as much as I love his SotN-onwards incarnation.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on March 19, 2015, 07:20:49 PM
Yeah, supertits was a bit distracting, but she was more pretty in face I thought.

*shrugs*

Still hot though. :P
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: X on March 19, 2015, 10:38:31 PM
To me personally, both versions of Satan are lacking in looks. Both do nothing to impress and they come off as being way too human-looking instead of demonic. This is the Satan design that LoS should have used and it would have been a much better throw-back to the original series;

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.honestgamers.com%2Fimages%2Fgames%2F12%2FC%2F3179%2F13.jpg&hash=dd2154334625c752f5ad017fdc23dfa291861c09)
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on March 19, 2015, 10:41:18 PM
Well, how human he is largely depends on what you're trying to do with him. For the second game, a big Leviathan-esque monster form would have been more appropriate, as the entire game leads up to that showdown. However, the first Lords plays him as the Deceiver, not the Destroyer. Sure, he has PLANS to destroy everything, but he's more concerned with getting his hands on the Mask and ensuring his trickery goes unnoticed until the right moment (which it does). In that context I honestly believe a big demon form would do just as much harm as his pitiful portrayal in Lords 2.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Flame on March 20, 2015, 07:48:34 PM
its likely that Satan and his final form were just a cut battle due to how bad development went, so they had to halfass a boss battle in some way, ending up using Alucard because why not
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Claimh Solais on March 21, 2015, 08:26:13 AM
Yeah, due to the shit that was going on during development, it probably held them back and they wound up having to cut material due to not being able to finish it in time. Thus, no Satan boss fight.

-No Satan boss fight
-Leviathan was even less interesting to fight than the Titans
-Carmilla and the Toy Maker were in the story very little
-Victor was gotten rid of way too quickly and for no good reason at all (I bet his last thought was "Are you fucking kidding me?")
-Half-assed ending that gives no closure to the plot
-Zobek's battle was anti-climactic
-Stealth segments blew ass

I dunno. LoS2 was just horribly disappointing to me.

Quote from: tatteredseraph on March 19, 2015, 05:13:24 PM
As for Carmilla, while I mostly quite liked her redesign as a facade of her 'humanity', in comparison to her dark, Lord of the Vampires, appearance, which I loved, I found the huge tits a bit of a distraction in a bad way.  They were too in your face, even though they do sort of work considering what Carmilla is - a seductress.  However, not everyone appreciates an eyefull of tits.

Carmilla's look wasn't necessarily a redesign, since it's her look from back when she was still a human, when she founded the order alongside Cornell and Zobek. Despite me loving her original look in LoS1, I much prefer her LoS2 look. And like Drac9 said. She's hot, though. lol
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: TatteredSeraph on March 21, 2015, 10:02:21 AM
Whilst yeah, I get that Carmilla's LoS2 look is based on her portrait in the Founders Quarters, I could still see some differences in it, even though the portrait picture only showed her top part.  I think that as for her being 'hot', it's very subjective, and whether you're into guys or girls.  Then again, I personally find Alucard very 'hot', in both his SotN and LoS incranations. :)

Iagree completely though on your points, aside for the ending.  I felt it was a bit lacklustre, but the open-endedness wasn't the problem for me.  I just felt it ended too quickly.  As for the Death fight, the fight was glorious imo.  It was just the means by which he was killed which was the disappointment, saying that he could be destroyed by the Void Sword.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on March 21, 2015, 10:19:50 AM
Hey, no judgments here.  :)

Alucard's certainly good-looking, though if I'm being honest I will say Gabriel (human OR vampire) a handsome bastard too.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: TatteredSeraph on March 21, 2015, 11:17:53 AM
Not gonna disagree with you on that. :)  Personally, I like him better as a vampire.  He looks especially fine in the picture of him with flames and the silhouette of the castle as the backdrop, and in the one of him in front of a burning cross, whilst holding the void sword. :)
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Chernabogue on March 21, 2015, 11:22:43 AM
LoS2's scenario was really what drew the game to the bottom. It was so confusing while not answering any of our questions.

And seriously, fuck Carmilla, she had nothing to do here.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: TatteredSeraph on March 21, 2015, 11:55:13 AM
With Carmilla, Victor, and the Toymaker, it almost felt like the devs had a checklist of things to cover, and once those points had been dealt with in as little time as possible, they were ignored from then on.  But that's an thread derailing arguement, tbh.  I agree, it did fail in some respects in that it was too contradictory and cryptic in places, especially regarding the nature of the castle and whether Marie and child Trevor were really there, or aspects conjured by Gabe's mind. 

  I wish they'd kept Satan as he had been in LoS1. Most of the artwork for the series was jawdroppingly beautiful. You just have to look at the artbook to see some of what was in the concept artists' minds, but the dev-hell which ensued meant it didn't live up to what it could have been. :(
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Belmont Stakes on April 22, 2015, 12:29:00 AM
I have just one thing to say about his redesign. Chicken legs.....that is all.

Carmilla is better looking in this one I think. I like both versions though. Nice boobs.

Marie looks like she has been on meth bender for a bit in the second one. Dark circles under eyes.

I don't understand why Zobek looks so different. Yeah he got set on fire in the first game but why the new flesh suit?

Dracula I am not fully feeling. He needed a cape and more choices either than red or dark armor


Now as for non character design issues, I hated that you can not access either the throne room in the Castle nor Drac's church belfry area after beating the game as both get destroyed. They couldn't just reverse time with Alucard's gift and gave him back those areas.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Rugal on April 22, 2015, 06:43:36 PM
The whole game is shit. The whole LoS series in general is shit. There's really nothing else to say about it. There's no argument.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on April 22, 2015, 11:52:45 PM
I actually much prefer Marie in 2, SEH.

Her render in the first game always looked bad, like they didn't quite get the translucent factor down pat. The eyebags thing is a bit out-of-place, but other than that I think she looks much better than the first time around.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Super Waffle on April 23, 2015, 05:01:07 AM
Quote from: Dracula9 on March 19, 2015, 03:06:12 AM
I could complain more about this shit, but I'll just let one of the better redesigns (muuuch better, mmmm) of Lords 2 sum it up for me.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcM38xVI.png&hash=8151243ed22e61ba5353eec3169597ffa11068bb)

Sorries again if needlessly resurrecting an old topic.

What was the point of coming up with an asspull to bring LoS1 Carmilla back to life and give her a more human redesign when LoS1's lore established there was already a separate human Carmilla and the vampire Carmilla was created out of her?

Why don't the original, pre-Shadowification versions of Carmilla, Cornell, and Zobek ever appear?
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on April 23, 2015, 06:51:17 AM
Because Cornell and Carmilla's pre-Shadow incarnations are dead. Lycan Cornell himself even states that killing the Lords kills their other halves in Heaven.

Zobek obviously survived being torched, but as for Carmilla...either Gabe secretly wanted to tap that, or his Castle subconscious conjured Carmilla up in a more appealing form to try and sway him (this would explain why she fights basically the same way she does in LoS1).
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: jestercolony on April 23, 2015, 08:14:00 AM
Well, you also have to take in consideration two things

1. Gabriel drank the blood of Laura (which is also the blood of Carmilla) which basically means she still lives on, even if its in his mind. She is apart of him

2. It's just a figment of Gabriel's insanity.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Dracula9 on April 23, 2015, 04:48:56 PM
I completely forgot about Laura's blood. That would make a lot of sense in-universe, since his Castle subconscious manifests as blood.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: KaZudra on April 24, 2015, 04:57:40 AM
Lets not forget that Carmilla was the original lord of the castle, so the possibilities are all there, even though I don't ever recall the part when the castle itself became sentient...
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on April 26, 2015, 02:34:47 AM
Quote from: Super Waffle on April 23, 2015, 05:01:07 AM
What was the point of coming up with an asspull to bring LoS1 Carmilla back to life and give her a more human redesign when LoS1's lore established there was already a separate human Carmilla and the vampire Carmilla was created out of her?

Why don't the original, pre-Shadowification versions of Carmilla, Cornell, and Zobek ever appear?
A part of me would like to think that the reason they brought Carmilla back and made her look closely to her pre-Lord human version was because they saw the posts in this forum when the art work of her pre-Lord form was released and how so many of the guys here were smitten with her(the amount of gushing from the guys here was hilarious) and how beautiful she was, which convinced them to bring her back.
Title: Re: What the fuck was Alvarez (and perhaps his art crew) thinking?
Post by: Flame on April 27, 2015, 03:32:36 AM
The idea and presence of Carmilla exists because Gabriel has her vampire blood.

I'ts in her Brotherhood form because the castle wants to tempt Gabriel with tits.

its basically the castle repurposing her image and essence to combat Gabe.

it technically IS her, and technically ISNT her.