Castlevania Dungeon Forums

The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Crying Freeman on August 23, 2015, 09:43:43 PM

Title: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on August 23, 2015, 09:43:43 PM
Obviously we know that Vampire Killer (MSX), SC4, and X68000 are remakes of the original Castlevania. Haunted Castle is added to this list officially, but I like to think different. Let's recap Simon's escapades:

Castlevania: Simon kills Dracula
Simon's Quest: Simon resurrects and kills Dracula's ghosts. No worries!... unless you go by the good ending where Dracula's hand comes up from his grave after Simon leaves.

In HC, you play as Simon again, but this time, Dracula kidnaps his newly wed wife after they walk off from their wedding, forcing Simon to hunt down and kill Dracula in order to save his love. It makes sense: After Simon's Quest, Simon has settled down, thinking he's finally done with his duty, eventually finding a woman he loves, who he marrys. Dracula kidnaps her to get to Simon. But beyond that, you can look at Belmont's Revenge.

Castlevania: The Adventure: Ends with Christopher killing Dracula. After watching the castle crumble, Christopher walks away. Dracula then flies out of the castle's ruins in bat form, the story ending right there.
Belmont's Revenge: 15 years later, Dracula has built some of his power, and Christopher's son, Soleiyu, has a festival party thrown for him, since he is ready to take on the duty of his father. A deep fog engulfs Soleiyu, with 4 castles appearing off in the distance. Christopher learns this is Dracula's doing, and sets out to stop Dracula once again. When Dracula's Castle appears and Christopher makes his way to the keep, Soleiyu appears, brainwashed by Dracula. Chirstopher engages in battle with his son and defeats him. After killing Dracula, Soleiyu and Chirsopher watch the castle crumble, the battle over.

Dracula took a while to build his strength back, about 15 years. He then kidnaps Soleiyu and makes him his slave to kill Christopher. He then planned to kill Soleiyu as a sacrifice for his power, as Soleiyu admits upon defeat. Assuming Haunted Castle is a sequel to Simon's Quest, it could be the same situation: Dracula waiting a while in hiding for his power to build up, and striking when the time is ready, only this time it's the Belmont's wife.

I doubt the developers of HC even thought of Simon's Quest when making HC, especially since HC's release was a few months after Simon's Quest in Japan. They were just tasked with making an arcade conversion of Castlevania. This theory could be an unofficial way of looking at the timeline, and since Simon's Quest's good ending never received a sequel, we could say we've had it all along... Still waiting for that ending to be followed up on  ;D
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: X on August 24, 2015, 01:36:34 AM
I never did think of Haunted Castle as a sequel to CVII. For me it was always SCV4 as there were far more instances between the two games as opposed to Haunted Castle which I have not seen any. I feel that Simon's wife getting kidnapped had been part of the other CV 1 games, but never having been told, and was only done in Haunted Castle.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Inccubus on August 24, 2015, 04:40:44 AM
You could interpret the games that way, but I really don't think they were trying to make a sequel.
Really when game designers intend for a game to be related narratively to another in a series they make it very clear or at least definitively imply it. I don't even see a solid implication here.
That said it is fun to speculate and consider what might be.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on August 24, 2015, 08:55:59 AM
I'd argue the parallel timeline or that HC is an alternate narrative to CV1. 
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on August 24, 2015, 01:20:11 PM
You could interpret the games that way, but I really don't think they were trying to make a sequel.
Really when game designers intend for a game to be related narratively to another in a series they make it very clear or at least definitively imply it. I don't even see a solid implication here.
That said it is fun to speculate and consider what might be.

It's safe to say that they didn't intend it to be connected. They just used the damsel in distress angle because it's a classic cinema and video game formula, and in the arcades, its an easier way to get people to know the story right off the bat rather than something like SC4's intro. Plus it can have more mainstream appeal.

Just sort of an unofficial theory, and like I said, HC came out a few months after CVII, so HC was being developed while CVII was, plus games back then we're rarely narrative driven. I like to treat it as more than a retelling personally, even though it's obvious the dev team never intended for it.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: JR on August 25, 2015, 05:00:45 AM
Although it is kind of funny to think of it as Simon's third battle with Dracula. On his wedding day, no less.

He had to be thinking "Oh come on NOT THIS AGAIN I SWEAR I HAVE THE WORST LUCK"  :-X
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on August 25, 2015, 12:31:14 PM
Although it is kind of funny to think of it as Simon's third battle with Dracula. On his wedding day, no less.

He had to be thinking "Oh come on NOT THIS AGAIN I SWEAR I HAVE THE WORST LUCK"  :-X

;D a here's work is never done.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on August 25, 2015, 12:55:50 PM
I can hear The Count (Sesame Street) counting the times he's fought Simon... :-\
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Jop on August 25, 2015, 03:22:50 PM
how do you explain that the castle its up? Dracula needs all his power to resurrect the Castle or use a person or other powers, i dont think that the wife of Simon have the power to do that and Dracula needs more than 15 or 25 years (100 normal) to get up the Castle alone or thats what i always think works the Castle.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: BLOOD MONKEY on August 25, 2015, 07:01:42 PM
how do you explain that the castle its up? Dracula needs all his power to resurrect the Castle or use a person or other powers, i dont think that the wife of Simon have the power to do that and Dracula needs more than 15 or 25 years (100 normal) to get up the Castle alone or thats what i always think works the Castle.

Simple. It ain't his castle. He stole it.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Reinhart77 on August 25, 2015, 07:10:20 PM
i thought that Haunted Castle was released before Simon's Quest.  (too lazy to double check)
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Jop on August 25, 2015, 09:07:13 PM
Well in pages with info about the game its say this:

"Count Dracula sleeps for a long hundred of years. During this time, peace exists at the village and Dracula is nothing but a mere legend.

However, one day a young couple named Simon and Serena were celebrating their wedding at the village's church.

The couple were enveloped with happiness, as the wedding bells rang, their future seemed blessed...

Suddenly, the empty sky was covered with dark clouds and with a rolling thunder that shook the earth, Dracula has once again awakened. Asking for the beautiful girl's blood, he flew down during the middle of the wedding and suddenly took the bride with him.

Now in order to save Serena, Simon heads to the demon castle."

 The problem its who knows if was write exactly of what they say in japan, in spanish sounds like Super Castlevania in a part where its say Simon once again weild the whip and goes to the castle or something like that but in english dont say that, in english its say young couple and Simon cant be young i think but like i say before its better to find the history in japanese and someone that can read that told us what its say.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on August 25, 2015, 09:17:33 PM
i thought that Haunted Castle was released before Simon's Quest.  (too lazy to double check)

When was bloody tears first recorded? There's a painting in HC which sheds bloody tears where the stage theme is... You guessed it, bloody tears.
I would say yes, it was made before.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on August 27, 2015, 12:45:52 AM
Well in pages with info about the game its say this:

"Count Dracula sleeps for a long hundred of years. During this time, peace exists at the village and Dracula is nothing but a mere legend.

However, one day a young couple named Simon and Serena were celebrating their wedding at the village's church.

The couple were enveloped with happiness, as the wedding bells rang, their future seemed blessed...

Suddenly, the empty sky was covered with dark clouds and with a rolling thunder that shook the earth, Dracula has once again awakened. Asking for the beautiful girl's blood, he flew down during the middle of the wedding and suddenly took the bride with him.

Now in order to save Serena, Simon heads to the demon castle."

 The problem its who knows if was write exactly of what they say in japan, in spanish sounds like Super Castlevania in a part where its say Simon once again weild the whip and goes to the castle or something like that but in english dont say that, in english its say young couple and Simon cant be young i think but like i say before its better to find the history in japanese and someone that can read that told us what its say.

Back in the day a game's story could vary depending on what the marketing department know, and they usually didn't know jack shit about the games to be honest. If the Japanese branch didn't fill them in on a game's backstory, they'd either make something up, change to make it more marketable to a new audience or take a bit to look at the game and decide what to say, and the backstories you're referring to I'd say fall under the latter category. So yes, we should try to learn more about the game's Japanese marketing/release, it's an interesting game to look at due to it's obscurity.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Inccubus on August 27, 2015, 03:22:25 AM
i thought that Haunted Castle was released before Simon's Quest.  (too lazy to double check)

Ah, good. I thought I had gone insane there for a sec or gotten sucked into an alternate reality.
I remember clearly seeing the release date for HC being the year before CV2 and suddenly when I check now it says it's a few months after.
That being the case, what I'm wondering now is when CV2 & HC started development.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Nagumo on August 27, 2015, 07:38:05 AM
One of the developers mentioned it took around 6 months to develop. The game was releases in February 1988, so that would mean it started production shortly after Simon's Quest, which was released in August.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Shinobi on August 27, 2015, 05:18:08 PM
CV2 was released in 1987(japanese FDS release) while Haunted Castle was released in 1988.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: coinilius on September 05, 2015, 06:30:50 AM
I mentioned in the recent Headcanon thread that my own take on Haunted Castle when I played through it recently was that it was Simon's fourth battle with Dracula (Super Castlevania IV being his third battle with Drac).  Of course, I was deliberately fanon recasting games that were remakes as sequels wherever possible, just because it made it 'more fun' for me in my approach to them.  Haunted Castle was easy though because out of all the Castlevania remakes, it actually had the most unique plot with the Serena/Selena angle added in.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on September 06, 2015, 03:03:46 PM
I mentioned in the recent Headcanon thread that my own take on Haunted Castle when I played through it recently was that it was Simon's fourth battle with Dracula (Super Castlevania IV being his third battle with Drac).  Of course, I was deliberately fanon recasting games that were remakes as sequels wherever possible, just because it made it 'more fun' for me in my approach to them.  Haunted Castle was easy though because out of all the Castlevania remakes, it actually had the most unique plot with the Serena/Selena angle added in.

I used to go with that angle due to 4's translation of "once again". As a kid I thought " does that mean Simon is over 100 years old!? Lol, it confused the hell out of me.

As of now, my Simon timeline goes like this: Castlevania/VK/SCV4/X68000, CV2, HK finishing his Dracula worries.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 06, 2015, 11:14:49 PM
By the same token you could state that HK is a prequel to CV1.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Lelygax on September 07, 2015, 12:51:40 AM
By the same token you could state that HK is a prequel to CV1.

But the CV1 manual says that it was Christopher that beaten Dracula before CV1, 100 years before.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 07, 2015, 12:18:15 PM
But the CV1 manual says that it was Christopher that beaten Dracula before CV1, 100 years before.

I don't understand this.  CV1 came out prior to the gameboy titles do why would it mention Christopher when he wasn't thought of yet... I still have CV1 with the manual and it doesn't even say the protagonist's name is Simon Belmont/ Belmondo. I'm dead certain all it says is something along the long the lines of
"After 100 years the count has risen.."
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: X on September 07, 2015, 04:45:26 PM
In the manual for CV Chronicles it states that Christopher sealed Dracula away 100 years prior. That's probably what Leylgax meant.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on September 07, 2015, 08:20:04 PM
I can't say I have the manual to reference, but I remember reading the manual online years ago and many other plot outlines for the game, most of them mentioning Chris. Once the GB games came out, they used Chris as the protagonist because they couldn't use Simon again unless it was another remake (even though tons of advertising for The Adventure say "Simon Belmont's new monstrous quest" etc.), and making a game about a name they drop in 1 makes sense too.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Lelygax on September 08, 2015, 10:11:47 PM
I really meant CV1 manual. I've never read it and only knew that it says about Christopher. It seems that I was incorrect and the US version hardly translates everything from the original:

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/manual-jfdscv1.htm (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/manual-jfdscv1.htm)
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/2/manual-cvone93.htm (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/2/manual-cvone93.htm)

Someone can translate it? I can't read it, but the wiki says that the info was from the japanese manual.

Also I found this:
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/manual-candc.htm (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/manual-candc.htm)

Give a look at page 31 here
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vgmuseum.com%2Fmrp%2Fcv1%2Fpacking%2Fman-11.png&hash=fb0f0fe2dcc8b8e8f8b589b31a995febb1882b2c)

It says that Trevor battles Dracula 100 years before Simon. Again, there is a link to the original japanese manual if someone wants to give a check and know what it says. http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/manual-jcv3.htm (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/manual-jcv3.htm)
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 08, 2015, 10:23:09 PM
@Lelygax I'm still not really understanding how CV1 would mention a game that hasn't been released yet.
That would be like The Legend of Zelda (LoZ) mentioning ALTTP in its manual.
If the Chronicles manual references Christopher, that I can understand.

I know about the American CV3 manual stating the 100 yr placement, but not entirely certain why this is relevant when we're analysing CV1's manual?
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: theplottwist on September 08, 2015, 10:23:35 PM
It says that Trevor battles Dracula 100 years before Simon. Again, there is a link to the original japanese manual if someone wants to give a check and know what it says. http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/manual-jcv3.htm (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/manual-jcv3.htm)

@Lelygax I'm still not really understanding how CV1 would mention a game that hasn't been released yet.
That would be like The Legend of Zelda (LoZ) mentioning ALTTP in its manual.
If the Chronicles manual references Christopher, that I can understand.

I know about the American CV3 manual stating the 100 yr placement, but not entirely certain why this is relevant when we're analysing CV1's manual?

You may want to take a look at this:
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv3/documents/CV3J.txt (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv3/documents/CV3J.txt)

And to my knowledge, CV1's manual does mention Christopher even in japanese:
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv1/documents/CV1J.txt (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv1/documents/CV1J.txt)

The exact place it mentions Christopher is here:
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ezimba.com%2Fwork%2F150909C%2Fezimba15362490630004.png&hash=ad048549c9f8ff8153a8dfb33745fd3bcee29dab)

If I'm not mistaken, CV1's japanese manual mentions Christopher in the context of a legend called "Christopher the Hero."
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 08, 2015, 10:44:57 PM
Well shut my mouth.. The English manual really didn't do it justice. It didn't even mention Simon's name as I recall.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Lelygax on September 08, 2015, 10:58:15 PM
@Lelygax I'm still not really understanding how CV1 would mention a game that hasn't been released yet.
That would be like The Legend of Zelda (LoZ) mentioning ALTTP in its manual.
If the Chronicles manual references Christopher, that I can understand.
Using LoZ as an example, they mentioned in ALTTP that Ganon was sealed and all, a foreshadowing for a game that hasn't made yet. The thing is that they could or couldn't be planning to make a game showing this at the time, even so there is not hindering them from detailing more about past events.

I think they did the same here, while explaing that Dracula was beaten 100 years ago, they said by whos's hands.


I know about the American CV3 manual stating the 100 yr placement, but not entirely certain why this is relevant when we're analysing CV1's manual?

Because it overlaps with Christopher times, but since the japanese manual says "Go back in time more than a hundred years before Simon Belmont's time, when the the battle between Dracula and mankind began.", we can ignore this for now. Even so this detail was kinda off-topic, but since it was bugging me I decided to share thoughts.


You may want to take a look at this:
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv3/documents/CV3J.txt (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv3/documents/CV3J.txt)

Cool, I remember reading this when they released this translation on the site, how did you find it again navigating at the site? lol

edit: Thanks for spotting it theplottwist, you can read japanese or only searched for his name? I'm asking this because I would be interested in a translation. Oh forget it, Now I've seen that you included a txt by "Help Me". :)

Also I didn't saw your last post before zangetsu, no worries, everyone can be wrong sometimes, that could've been me xD
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on September 08, 2015, 10:59:43 PM
Well shut my mouth.. The English manual really didn't do it justice. It didn't even mention Simon's name as I recall.

How long ago did you read it? We all remember things differently from our childhood, only to see it again and be baffled how different it is (happened to me with Goldeneye on the 64)
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 08, 2015, 11:10:26 PM
How long ago did you read it? We all remember things differently from our childhood, only to see it again and be baffled how different it is (happened to me with Goldeneye on the 64)

I have a many flaws like not being able to read Japanese. But my memory is not 1 of them.

All it says is "The count has waited 100 years for a rematch. He's ready. Are you?"

http://www.castlevaniacrypt.com/img/cv/manual/nes/3.jpg (http://www.castlevaniacrypt.com/img/cv/manual/nes/3.jpg)

What a crappy manual compared to the original
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on September 08, 2015, 11:12:02 PM
I have a many flaws like not being able to read Japanese. But my memory is not 1 of them.

All it says is "The count has waited 100 years for a rematch. He's ready. Are you?"

http://www.castlevaniacrypt.com/img/cv/manual/nes/3.jpg (http://www.castlevaniacrypt.com/img/cv/manual/nes/3.jpg)

What a crappy manual compared to the original

Oh lol, it does seem like a pretty shitty manual. Maybe for the GBA rerelease? (the link doesn't work)
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 08, 2015, 11:24:12 PM

Oh lol, it does seem like a pretty shitty manual. Maybe for the GBA rerelease? (the link doesn't work)

http://www.castlevaniacrypt.com/cv/manual (http://www.castlevaniacrypt.com/cv/manual)

Try this then click on the top link. Then pages 2-3 link.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on September 08, 2015, 11:30:27 PM
There is it! You're right, no mention of Chris whatesoever. It's just some throwaway, barebones CV1 plot lol. Maybe a later release, and they cut down the story to save space in the manual?
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 08, 2015, 11:44:59 PM
There is it! You're right, no mention of Chris whatesoever. It's just some throwaway, barebones CV1 plot lol. Maybe a later release, and they cut down the story to save space in the manual?

Honestly I thought the manual was so cool when I was a kid, I don't even know how I knew the protagonist's name (maybe I learned it in CVII's manual and assumed is was the same Hero). I actually think the Simon's Quest Tiger game's manual was copied, I specifically remember it having a similar layout with Dracula being worth 50,000 points or something similar.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on September 09, 2015, 12:43:31 AM
Honestly I thought the manual was so cool when I was a kid, I don't even know how I knew the protagonist's name (maybe I learned it in CVII's manual and assumed is was the same Hero). I actually think the Simon's Quest Tiger game's manual was copied, I specifically remember it having a similar layout with Dracula being worth 50,000 points or something similar.

 Lol game manuals were the shit back then! Now we just get a slip of paper  :'( And I remember wanting the Tiger game when I was younger, was so obsessed with CV  ;D
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 21, 2015, 12:20:02 AM
English manuals, god love' em :P

I place HC in the COTM continuum now as per my timeline below.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on October 21, 2015, 04:38:42 PM
Making you own timelines is one of the most fun things to do! I even have a James Bond one as well as for CV.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 22, 2015, 01:25:26 AM
Making you own timelines is one of the most fun things to do! I even have a James Bond one as well as for CV.

James Bond with the help of Quincy Morris defeats Dracula :p
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on October 22, 2015, 07:26:47 PM
James Bond with the help of Quincy Morris defeats Dracula :p

Lol what a teamup
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: spookyhappyfun on October 23, 2015, 11:53:22 AM
Zangetsu, your timeline in your signature looks fascinating. Would you mind elaborating on it? I'd love to understand it more fully.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: coinilius on October 23, 2015, 01:33:57 PM
Zangetsu, your timeline in your signature looks fascinating. Would you mind elaborating on it? I'd love to understand it more fully.

Thanks!

Straying from the topic but I would also like to see some elaboration on this as well - it is an interesting looking timeline!  One part I was interested in particularly - Isn't Order of Shadows generally assumed to be before the various versions of the original Castlevania, somewhere in the 17th century?
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 23, 2015, 05:31:19 PM
I thought I read an IGA interview where he stated OOS was not set in the main timeline and it was a sidestory but it still included Belmonts? I don't know as I've never played it but see here nder Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castlevania:_Order_of_Shadows
As for its placement it's in the 17th century so it could be before or just after SCIV Simon (in the context of my timeline) it doesn't matter I guess. I place it after because Desmond looks more similar to Reinhardt Schneider who comes after SCIV in this timeline.

Where to start... The main timeline is self explanatory:

LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS

Here, Legends was retconned for an all male lineage to carry the Belmont bloodline in name as well and lineage. This is taken from Iga's official timeline which was released with POR.
It should be noted that in an interview regarding CV Chronicles being ported to PS1 Iga mentioned this was the retelling of the original CV, not SCIV. SCIV is also not mentioned on Iga's official timeline.


The Parallel timeline


There is a reason I count multiple timelines, bringing me to my next point: CV Judgement.
Judgement spans across times pulling in different warriors. However, Cornell from LOD is featured as he was brought from 'the parallel universe'. In this universe LOD happens, which means CV64 happens. In CV 64/ LOD upon beating Death he calls Reinhardt Schneider "Scum of a Belmont" implying his being a descendant to Belmont clan, even if not by name.
Desmond more strongly resembles Reinhardt than the other Belmonts as previously stated, and CV64 takes place in 1852 I believe. At some point Desmond's indirect Descendants were passed the Vampire Killer which his whip definitely is, as the prologue states:

Reinhardt Schneider... Heir of the ancient Belmont clan of vampire hunters, his blood dooms him to oppose the might of Count Dracula. Wielding the holy whip of his ancestors, the young vampire killer begins his quest!!

Because SCIV is no longer in Iga's official timeline, but there is a Belmont lineage, I place the retconned CV Legends and SCIV into this timeline also. We know for certain there is a Belmont lineage, we know that this is a parallel universe to the main (Iga) timeline, this makes the most sense to me as an origin story (Legends) and the fact that there's a parallel Simon Belmont (SCIV).

I place CV Dracula X ("CV Vampire's Kiss" in Europe) at the end of this parallel timeline for 4 reasons:

1) It doesn't work/ fit in the main timeline, doesn't fit into SOTN (Maria was never a warrior in VK) nor is it canon according to Iga's official timeline
2) In the main timeline this event is known as "CV Rondo of Blood" (ROB)
3) I see this event as a parallel to ROB where Richter saves Maria and Annette
4) The Prologue in this game states that hundreds of years have passed since Simon defeated Dracula, which doesn't fit into the main timeline (as less than 200 years had passed).

Dracula X/ Vampire's Kiss Prologue is as follows:

"The country of Transylvania in the Middle Ages...

In the land which gave rise to countless legends of Dracula, a pitch-black evil has once again come...

Hundreds of years have passed since the time of Simon Belmont, the legendary hero said to have sealed away Count Dracula, and the people have grown used to peace, and corrupted it.

Now, once more, the wickedness in the hearts of some men (<-Chaos reference->) has resurrected the Dark Lord of evil, Count Dracula.

Count Dracula, now revived, plotted revenge against the descendant of the Belmont line that sealed him away, Richter Belmont.

To lure Richter to the Demon Castle, he lead his new servants in an attack on the town, abducting Richter’s lover, Annet, her younger sister, Maria, shutting them up in the Demon Castle.

To rescue Annet and Maria, and to seal away Count Dracula once again, Richter, mourning his fate, took up his ancestral holy whip and headed for the Demon Castle."


[Granted there are a couple of things wrong with this prologue, the Middle Ages were supposed to end in the 15th Century for starters i.e. 1400, but I digress and can only assume they were referring to the later period of the "Dark Ages"]

The game is placed hundreds of years after Simon's encounter with Dracula in SCIV. i suppose I could shift SCIV to earlier in the timeline if I were to put a year to it, but either way I see the 3 events involving Simon; (SCIV / CVC / HC) to parallel one another.
Why place Richter at the end of the timeline, especially when there was a Schneider (Belmont descendant) using the whip in the 1850's? Why not, the whip was passed to the Morris family in the main timeline, where the true Belmont lineage couldn't touch it for 200 years
(click to show/hide)


An important note to the chronological order of the parallel timeline and why it goes SCIV>OOS>LOD>64>VK is partly because of Malus in CV 64. After 64 in this timeline, Dracula is only able to resurrect again because of Cornell's wolf ability which gave Dracula free reign to resurrect via Malus. Malus' traits not only took on this new fom, but it showed in Dracula's 2nd form where appears human. It's the blue hair and slightly lighter eyes. In CV VK, Dracula appears similar with red eyes and blue hair. Malus' eyes were more purple but Dracula still carries strong traits of his like the blue hair. Perhaps in this timeline he took some of Malus' physical attributes which manifested in subsequent resurrections. His look and attire seem similar to Dracula form 2 from the 64 games.


With Haunted Castle (HC) I initially believed since it was made the year after CVII that it was meant to be a sequel to the "best ending" where Dracula's hand comes out of the grave. Initially because the first stage of HC is called "The Graveyard" and there seems to be Wallachian mountains in the background, like the Vrad (Vlad?) Graveyard from CVII. (which interestingly according to history should be the spot where Vlad impaled his own soldiers.. anywho) After consideration it's not part of the official timeline anyway, so I see it as one of 2 things:

- An alternate sequel to CVII as I mentioned above
- A parallel event/ occurrence to CV

I like the idea of 3 parallel Simon Belmont events in 3 different timelines, that's why it is where it is.

Seeing as HC is never mentioned again and is completely disconnected from all timelines anyway, I lump it with COTM in  that same timeline. This means that there was a Simon Belmont who has defeated Dracula in every timeline, which what you'd expect from parallel universes. In truth COTM wasn't meant to accompany any other games, but I don't see the harm in HC being in its same universe.


Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on October 24, 2015, 02:56:09 AM
Amazing timeline, man! It really all makes sense. BTW, I'm surprised Iga even acknowledged OOS as everyone who played it calls it crap AND it was developed in the US by a team out of his control. And I remember DracX/VK mentioning it takes place a century after Simon in the intro, but it doesn't matter. I hate Judgement, but it does allow for these alternate universe timelines. Wish Judgement was 2D but that's for another discussion lol.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 24, 2015, 03:12:59 AM
And I remember DracX/VK mentioning it takes place a century after Simon in the intro, but it doesn't matter. I hate Judgement, but it does allow for these alternate universe timelines. Wish Judgement was 2D but that's for another discussion lol.

Hey Freeman, I'm sure the box of VK (which I used to own) may mention Simon Belmont and then says something about "the Count has risen after 100 years" under the subheading "Drac is back!"

But the prologue I've posted above is within the game itself (and possibly within the manual, unsure because I never owned that).
Therefore I've gone off what is stated within the game. The way the prologue has built the game up in whatever continuum it lies seems to the the final showdown between the Belmonts and Dracula. This may also mean that since no year is given to VK, it may chronologically in years happen at a later point than ROB if the 2 were compared side by side.

A couple of other things with the parallel timelines:
- If Dracula X Chronicles isn't counted (showcasing Dracula's 3rd final form) there is an incosistency with Dracula in VK's final form  and stage setting (pitfalls everywhere in the throneroom = lousy architecture :P) compared to ROB/ SOTN's prologue where Richter fights Dracula.
- CVC retells CV1 again with the same final form Dracula, whereas SCIV's final form of Dracula is not consistent with this and in the context of the main timeline Dracula doesn't fit the profile of a centennial resurrection.
What I'm saying is that there seems to be less consistency in the final forms of Dracula in the alternate timeline I've made of Legends>>>VK, which I'm okay with because it's not the main timeline, less is known about that universe's workings and it's not the actual focal timeline which Iga put his work into crafting.

Also in the Japanese version of CV64, I'm certain Actrise, the Belnades descendant is supposed to be Sypha herself. I recall reading forums on this over a decade ago. Since Trevor and Sypha supposedly procreate, and since Juste is the direct descendant of the Belmont but also has Belnade's blood, one would think if Sypha's fate were to side with evil she may have never had those descendants to begin with, should this be the case. Hence, if it is, these entries happen in the alternate timeline regardless.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Inccubus on October 24, 2015, 12:47:36 PM
I was under the impression that Desmond was intended to be Simon's father according to the creators of OoS.
I remember reading an interview with the creator stating that Desmond has red hair specifically to show that he is.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 24, 2015, 01:11:05 PM
I was under the impression that Desmond was intended to be Simon's father according to the creators of OoS.
I remember reading an interview with the creator stating that Desmond has red hair specifically to show that he is.

I had this discussion with theplottwist. Initially it was intended that OOS was going to be canon, but it wasn't, it takes place in a separate universe. It's not on Iga's official timeline either.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: X on October 24, 2015, 03:29:33 PM
Quote
I was under the impression that Desmond was intended to be Simon's father according to the creators of OoS.
I remember reading an interview with the creator stating that Desmond has red hair specifically to show that he is.

I think the creator missed the part about the original games showing Simon without red hair as it was originally blond.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on October 24, 2015, 11:19:30 PM
I think the creator missed the part about the original games showing Simon without red hair as it was originally blond.

Yeah but hey, Iga was like "Simon has red hair now." after Chronicles. He never blatantly said that of course, but if I recall correctly the only Iga game Simon appears in after Chronicles is Judgement(outside of his classic sprite in HoDissonance and HoDespair), and he had red hair in that... along with the worst design of the character ever seen. And if you go into MoF, red hair again.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: coinilius on October 25, 2015, 01:03:52 AM
The flaw in the theory of Desmond being after Simon though is that Castlevania occurs in 1691 - there really isn't much time left in the 17th Century for OoS to occur after Simon (unless Desmond and his sisters are Simon's kids, and Simon was the father that was killed... and there is that statue in the Medusa lair... and hmmm).  What really gets me about OoS was that
(click to show/hide)
 

Really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the timeline you've constructed and how you came about it. No putting of Adventure Rebirth into one of the alternate timelines?
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 25, 2015, 02:27:17 AM
The flaw in the theory of Desmond being after Simon though is that Castlevania occurs in 1691 - there really isn't much time left in the 17th Century for OoS to occur after Simon (unless Desmond and his sisters are Simon's kids, and Simon was the father that was killed... and there is that statue in the Medusa lair... and hmmm).  What really gets me about OoS was that
(click to show/hide)
 

Really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the timeline you've constructed and how you came about it. No putting of Adventure Rebirth into one of the alternate timelines?

Well the reason I placed OOS after SCIV is OOS is because SCIV although intended as a remake/ sequel to the original, no longer has its place in the IGA timeline as it was superseded by CV Chronicles. If the Castle doesn't crumble at the end, either Dracula wasn't actually defeated or it was another castle? Even though I still place it in the alternate timeline maybe there's a game that's supposed to happen directly after?

This coupled with Dracula X/ VK's prologue story basing it "hundreds of years after Simon Belmont" triumphed against Dracula, since legends occurs around c1445 I've compiled these into 1 timeline. I've actually considered moving SCIV prior to Legends. However, this would cause issues as SCIV's prologue makes it clear that this is not Dracula's first incarnation. That and Dracula basically being Vlad (to me at least) in this timeline would just cause issues. I guess I don't have as much of an issue with the alternate timeline having inconsistencies. Unless I place HC before legends and there are 2 Simon's in one timeline. Not crazy about this though.

That's an interesting thought. I never really played the gb entries so I've not really heaps of time into them. Although I know the basic plot points. I tend to think AR is just a reboot though, but because Iga's timeline may have been released before AR it's hard to tell. It's entirely possible it's in the alternate timeline.

Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: theplottwist on October 25, 2015, 03:07:39 AM
About Order of Shadows, there are two information snippets that are very important for pinpointing the actual date where it happens:

1. Tyrone Rodriguez's statement about it happening "roughly in the late 1600s".
2. Rohan Krause's statement about it being "nearly 20 years later and he encounters yet another Belmont".

The game could happen as late as 1699, and the previous Belmont to Desmond would exist around 20 years earlier - therefore placing Krause's battle with Desmond's father around the 1680s.

The plot is built in such a way that Desmond can't be Simon's descendant, since Simon's battle happened in 1691.

The more you throw the plot backwards in time from 1699, the more impossible it becomes for Desmond to be Simon's descendant, but it becomes more possible for him to actually be Simon's ancestor.

Simon was born in 1669, which I think still qualifies as "roughly late in the 1600s". This could be very near when Order of Shadows could've happened on an universe where Simon exists.

BUUUUUUUUT this contradicts the info that "Dracula has been dead for 100 years now" appearing in the original Castlevania and its remakes.

But then, if you consider that destroying Dracula on Order of Shadows did not cause the castle to crumble, and we damn well know that the crumbling is triggered by Dracula's destruction, I posit another hypothesis: What if Desmond never fought Dracula at all?

NOTE: This all is based around the idea that all Simons were born in the same year (1669) unless specified otherwise, and their battles against Dracula took place in 1691. Some sources indeed confirm that every Castlevania remake take place in the same year (since, well... They're remakes from the first game after all), but when looking at the manual, no specific year is given besides the first Castlevania.

If this is true and one of these Simon iterations exist in the same timeline as Order of Shadows, then I don't think it is possible for Simon to be Desmond's ancestor, but actually to be his descendant.

Oh well, just adding my two cents, people. Please don't get mad :|
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 25, 2015, 04:40:58 AM
Plot, I was thinking if the castle in OOS didn't crumble then what if Desmond fought the Guardian of Dracula's soul like in 64/ LOD ? In Carrie/ Reinhardt's playthrough, the bad ending only allows you to fight 'old Drac' aka the Guardian to his soul.

Since these instances don't happen on the main timeline anymore, it actually makes sense that the same dynamics apply to the same alternate universe.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: theplottwist on October 25, 2015, 04:59:57 AM
Plot, I was thinking if the castle in OOS didn't crumble then what if Desmond fought the Guardian of Dracula's soul like in 64/ LOD ? In Carrie/ Reinhardt's playthrough, the bad ending only allows you to fight 'old Drac' aka the Guardian to his soul.

Since these instances don't happen on the main timeline anymore, it actually makes sense that the same dynamics apply to the same alternate universe.

This makes much more sense, specially if you want to insert Order of Shadows in the same timeline as CV64.

There is also one more detail that can give base to what you said: Dracula in OOS knows who Rohan Krause was and that he was the sacrifice to bring him back.

How in the heck does he know that if he was frikkin dead when this happened? Isn't he supposed to be dead for nearly a century on this story? We never, ever see Dracula recognize his servants like that UNLESS they are alive (for instance, Dracula acknowledging Shaft in DXC).

So it could be possible that the vampire here is the Dracula impostor.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 25, 2015, 05:33:17 AM
@plot This hypothesis is further solidified by Dracula in OOS not having a demonic form.

Only thing is LOD precedes 64 and there's about 130 year gap between 1680/1700 - c1844 when LOD happens.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: KaZudra on October 25, 2015, 06:21:25 PM
Let's take into account that Every castlevania game is a part of a timeline.
Through these alternate universes, there is one constant, Simon Defeating Dracula, but with these variables, timelines share events, a few examples include...
Bloodlines isn't really Canon to the Iga-verse, but the events are retconed to PoR.
Castlevania 2 and HoD are essentially the same narrative, Collecting parts of Dracula to destory his remnants.

Possibilities are endless, it's quite possible that timelines are sort of infinite, and the current game(s) are just connecting certain parts together.
The Constant is of course Cv1 and remakes.

Legends -> Cv3 -> Scv -> HoD; Belmonts are Dracula descent, explains why Trevor set a grave stone for Dracula in the first place and why Juste is essentially Alucard Belmont.
LoI -> Cv3 -> Cv1 -> Cv2 (bad ending) -> CoTM (OR) [LoD + CV64] -> Bloodlines; More emphasis on the Weapon Vampire Killer, Giving a Master Sword Narrative
IGA timeline; More emphasis on the bloodline narrative
Cv3 -> Bram Stoker's Dracula -> Bloodlines Trilogy (that never happened), self explanitory

Only problem with a solid Timeline is most games are very open ended, but this is very, very good for castlevania.
Let's take into consideration that Every game is in fact Canon, but not all in the same universe. This can benefit everything since a singe timeline with non-canon games leaves a very bloated chain of events, this can actually slim down and organize timelines based on the current game in speculation. giving Castlevania Multiple endings.

Best way to put it, think Shadow the Hedgehog, the story is completely changed every playthrough based on the route the player takes.

Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 25, 2015, 10:31:40 PM
Bloodlines isn't really Canon to the Iga-verse, but the events are retconed to PoR.

How exactly do you figure this? Dracula (the novel), Bloodlines and POR are all part of Iga's timeline. I'm staring at it now.
If anything, Dracula's events are retconned to suit Bloodlines and POR.

Castlevania 2 and HoD are essentially the same narrative, Collecting parts of Dracula to destory his remnants.

I don't necessarily agree with this point.
1) Although history is in a sense repeating itself (and CVII is referenced in the prologue) this has been spoken about on other threads in CVD. In HOD, Maxim is possessed by the "remains" of Dracula which is causing him to do things.
2) Dracula "wraith" in HOD doesn't remember the Belmont clan.
3) The Castle itself is effectively a concoction of Maxim's unconscious mind while he is possessed by the remains. Sounds far fetched to some but this fully explains why
(click to show/hide)
in the proper ending.
4) In CVII if Simon had found & burned all of Dracula's remains he wouldn't have had the need to fight him, however, Dracula resurrected via the fang which Simon never found. (part of the official Japanese guide).
Hence, CVII was destroying the body parts, thereby destroying Dracula, HOD (and possibly SOTN, see 5) was assembling the body parts/ remains to summon him.
5) In SOTN all of Dracula's body parts are also collected (as relics) and are required
(click to show/hide)


Possibilities are endless......
The Constant is of course Cv1 and remakes.

I agree. Simon Belmont is arguably the most well known Belmont and his battle with Dracula has been the focal point of the series (with remakes) the most. This is why I believe having 3 parallel Simon events actually makes quite a bit of sense to me.

Legends -> Cv3 -> Scv -> HoD; Belmonts are Dracula descent, explains why Trevor set a grave stone for Dracula in the first place and why Juste is essentially Alucard Belmont.
LoI -> Cv3 -> Cv1 -> Cv2 (bad ending) -> CoTM (OR) [LoD + CV64] -> Bloodlines; More emphasis on the Weapon Vampire Killer, Giving a Master Sword Narrative
IGA timeline; More emphasis on the bloodline narrative
Cv3 -> Bram Stoker's Dracula -> Bloodlines Trilogy (that never happened), self explanitory

One small note is COTM is disconnected from most if not all other games, the Castlevania in COTM is in Austria for starters.
I've only placed HC>>>>>COTM because the 2 are so disconnected from all of the other games in the series, and nothing is telling me HC's Castle isn't set in Austria at this point in time. I still acknowledge the 2 could be disconnected and it should really read HC>>>/>>>COTM

Although I acknowledge what you're proposing here, no offense at all but I always have disliked self-enclosed timelines. Why? The whole point of timeline-ing to me is finding solid enough information to map every entry to the franchise. The second reason is that canon is not static as most people believe. You raised an interesting point when you brought up the Master Sword... I'm an avid Zelda timeline theorist as well and always have been. Back in the day I used to debate and even argue with the best of them, but I digress... Hyrule Historia is what I'm getting at here. HH was released to the public, and then ALBW was released, which given its backstory potentially altered what HH dubbed as the 'downfall timeline' - albeit slightly - into change.

My point is I reiterate that timelines and canon are not static objects. The purpose for my CV timeline in my signature it to attempt to explain 'everything' in that universe. This is part of the reason I enjoy timeline-ing, it's a challenge to account for any and everything and debate canon a versus canon b and so forth.

In the case of Zelda with HH, the problem theorists like myself ran into is that although it showed the 3 branching timelines to the Zeldaverse, it didn't explain HOW all of those timelines actually manifested: How in one branch the hero fails while in others the hero succeeds, which order these events happen, the narrative tying those things together. Specifically if Link dies at the end of OOT the downfall timeline occurs where the Hero is defeated, but then if this happens the other timelines can't. Similarly if the Hero is successful, the downfall timeline never occurs which means all the older Zeldas can't occur. Then I asked myself why is that? It's not exactly a multiverse/ multiple timeline theory but more of a 'what if' or schrodinger's cat scenario. 

This is why actually am working on a Zelda timeline which explains HH's timeline in logical and chronological order andshows how the timelines were all created from certain events. There is no what if scenario's in this timeline because simply put they ALL happen. I've also displayed all instances of parallel events occurring in all universes e.g. When Ganon is sealed into a realm in more than 1 timeline, to attempt some sense of causality to how the multiple universes work.. I was actually going to post it under hardcore gaming or otherstuff and this may be a good opportunity. The only thing is, it's not finished yet, and it may take me a long time to complete.

Similarly with CV, I'm trying to account for all games and their context in the canon as of right now, as opposed to what the canon was in the past. So in a sense while I'm not taking every "bad ending" into account, I'm trying to account for all canon events.

Only problem with a solid Timeline is most games are very open ended, but this is very, very good for castlevania.
Let's take into consideration that Every game is in fact Canon, but not all in the same universe. This can benefit everything since a singe timeline with non-canon games leaves a very bloated chain of events, this can actually slim down and organize timelines based on the current game in speculation. giving Castlevania Multiple endings.

I have no issue at all with HH-style 'downfall timelines'. For example I initially placed Haunted Castle and SCIV after Simon's Quest. However, it can't work with Iga's timeline which I consider canon and the other reason being the lesser endings of CVII didn't allow Simon to fight Dracula again because
(click to show/hide)

Even though I do consider involving incomplete/ less good endings, I tend to count the best endings first and then work back from there as I believe they're the closest to canon as the creators would've intended.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on October 25, 2015, 11:52:15 PM
These are so great! It's like no matter how much we've played the game in the series, there's always something new for us! I'm loving this, KaZudra! One reason because Sonia is my second fav. Belmont and we can include Legends in some form with a series of alternate universes. Like I said, the only thing I like about Judgement is the evidence of these alternate timelines.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: theplottwist on October 26, 2015, 12:30:04 AM
These are so great! It's like no matter how much we've played the game in the series, there's always something new for us! I'm loving this, KaZudra! One reason because Sonia is my second fav. Belmont and we can include Legends in some form with a series of alternate universes. Like I said, the only thing I like about Judgement is the evidence of these alternate timelines.

And I have even squeezed her in my Lords of Shadow headcanon for my Branching Timeline Hypothesis (similar hypothesis to Zangetsu's, but mine deal with the need for Dracula and interference from time travellers).

Yes, this would mean that the Dracula in Legends is actually Gabriel, and Alucard is Trevor. Sonia is a descendant of LoS' Simon, and her child is hers with Alucard - but is NOT Trevor.

I'm just waiting for a response from Enric Alvarez so this timeline can make sense in my head.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on October 26, 2015, 12:36:58 AM
And I have even squeezed her in my Lords of Shadow headcanon timeline.

Yes, this would mean that the Dracula in Legends is actually Gabriel, and Alucard is Trevor. Sonia is a descendant of LoS' Simon, and her child is hers with Alucard - but is NOT Trevor.

I'm just waiting for a response from Enric Alvarez so this timeline can make sense in my head.

I'm liking that too! But then that would mean that Tevor basically had a child with Sonia  :-X I haven't played MoF, so if Tevor becomes a completely different entity or something when becoming Alucard and has no traces of being trevor left, then I'd be completely down for this theory as well!
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: theplottwist on October 26, 2015, 12:38:43 AM
I'm liking that too! But then that would mean that Tevor basically had a child with Sonia  :-X I haven't played MoF, so if Tevor becomes a completely different entity or something when becoming Alucard and has no traces of being trevor left, then I'd be completely down for this theory as well!

Yeah, the incest is something I'm struggling with resolving for this to make sense lol

Unless Sonia has adopted the name like Gabriel did centuries ago, then it becomes a very big issue. But it's important to remember that, in the LoS timeline, bloodlines are next to irrelevant. Sonia could be someone who received the name but is not a Belmont descendant, YET she can still wield a whip and fight evil.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on October 26, 2015, 01:10:45 AM
Yeah, the incest is something I'm struggling with resolving for this to make sense lol

Unless Sonia has adopted the name like Gabriel did centuries ago, then it becomes a very big issue. But it's important to remember that, in the LoS timeline, bloodlines are next to irrelevant. Sonia could be someone who received the name but is not a Belmont descendant, YET she can still wield a whip and fight evil.

Lol definitely needs some work. I must say, though, I love the idea of this! Part of Sonia's backstory was that she is seeking revenge after Drac. destroyed the Belmont manor and her family, her grandfather teaching her about the whip. So maybe ancestors of Simon make up this family and they adopt Sonia. Even then, Trevor/Alucard would be suspicious of the Belmont name and stay away from relations to her.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 26, 2015, 04:39:26 AM
Lol definitely needs some work. I must say, though, I love the idea of this! Part of Sonia's backstory was that she is seeking revenge after Drac. destroyed the Belmont manor and her family, her grandfather teaching her about the whip. So maybe ancestors of Simon make up this family and they adopt Sonia. Even then, Trevor/Alucard would be suspicious of the Belmont name and stay away from relations to her.

This is an intriguing development.. I just had a lightbulb moment.

If theplottwist and I merged our Legends timelines:

LOS>MOF>LOS2>>>Legends>SCIV>>>>>>>>OOS>LOD>64>VK

Simon from LOS was Sonia's Grandfather from the Legends prologue.
Reason being is that she may not be a Belmont by blood, which is why he isn't her father.
Sonia defeats Dracula (Gabriel/ Vlad) had a child with Alucard (Trevor) who she names "Simon" after her Grandfather.
This is the same Simon from SCIV, who defeats Dracula during the middle ages "hundreds of years" prior to Richter Belmont.
OOS' Desmond defeats the "guardian of Dracula's sleeping spirit, thus Castlevania doesn't crumble. The Castle remains active.
Desmond has at least one son and one daughter - the daughter begins the Schneider lineage off the existing Belmont Bloodline. Therefore, Desmond being Reinhardt Schneider's ancestor (red hair and all).
Desmond's son carries the Belmont name, however, the Schneider's were either more well skilled to use the Vampire Killer, or they were passed it for another reason. (like on the main timeline)
Cornell defeats the real but not yet fully resurrected Dracula who absorbs his Lycan form, resurrecting as his first born child, Malus.
The guardian of Dracula's sleeping spirit is defeated by Reinhardt and Carrie (like Richter/ Maria at the end of SOTN), they then defeat the real Dracula (aka Malus)
Richter Belmont is the last Belmont descended from Gabriel to defeat Dracula (who now looks like Malus due to his previous incarnation).
FIN
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: theplottwist on October 26, 2015, 04:51:07 AM
This is an intriguing development.. I just had a lightbulb moment.

If theplottwist and I merged our Legends timelines:

LOS>MOF>LOS2>>>Legends>SCIV>>>>>>>>OOS>LOD>64>VK

Simon from LOS was Sonia's Grandfather from the Legends prologue.
Reason being is that she may not be a Belmont by blood, which is why he isn't her father.
Sonia defeats Dracula (Gabriel/ Vlad) had a child with Alucard (Trevor) who she names "Simon" after her Grandfather.
This is the same Simon from SCIV, who defeats Dracula during the middle ages "hundreds of years" prior to Richter Belmont.
OOS' Desmond defeats the "guardian of Dracula's sleeping spirit, thus Castlevania doesn't crumble. The Castle remains active.
Desmond has at least one son and one daughter - the daughter begins the Schneider lineage off the existing Belmont Bloodline. Therefore, Desmond being Reinhardt Schneider's ancestor (red hair and all).
Desmond's son carries the Belmont name, however, the Schneider's were either more well skilled to use the Vampire Killer, or they were passed it for another reason. (like on the main timeline)
Cornell defeats the real but not yet fully resurrected Dracula who absorbs his Lycan form, resurrecting as his first born child, Malus.
The guardian of Dracula's sleeping spirit is defeated by Reinhardt and Carrie (like Richter/ Maria at the end of SOTN), they then defeat the real Dracula (aka Malus)
Richter Belmont is the last Belmont descended from Gabriel to defeat Dracula (who now looks like Malus due to his previous incarnation).
FIN

There is a glaring issue here, however, and that's why I asked Enric for the date where LoS2's intro happens.

In LoS2's intro, Gabriel is struck with the Crissaegrim, and sleeps for hundreds of years until 2057; He couldn't have battled anyone else until his appearance in this year. Some sources say that Alucard stabbed Gabriel in the 1400s, and if I'm not mistaken, the knight scrolls hint at that.

Depending on when he was struck during the 1400s, Sonia could've fought him (and could've been the first human to actually defeat him - as her story officialy goes - since he was not truly defeated by Simon in Mirror of Fate) and THEN he revived later to be struck by the Crissaegrim. But it's important that this date be anywhere AFTER 1450, where Legends takes place.

In the LoS's timeline, LoS2 is obligatorily the last battle. Anything that happens between Crissaegrim and LoS2 must not include Dracula to work.

So, it would go like this:

LoS >> MoF >> Legends >> LoS2's intro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LoS2

Also, important to note: In this bizarre headcanon of mine, I inserted Sonia PURELY because the last Belmont to face Gabriel is Victor Belmont. Victor is Sonia's descendant in the cancelled Castlevania: Resurrection :P

But, as stated above, there are many issues with the idea. Not only the possible incest, but also the fact that the game flat out states that this is the beginning of the Belmont legend (when, in this hypothesis, it's not) and that the child in Sonia's arms will battle Dracula in the future and be hailed as a hero (when this wouldn't be possible due to Dracula, in this hypothesis, being put to sleep by the Crissaegrim - unless this child is actually Roland de Ronceval, who died fighting Dracula BUT still got considered a hero throughout history, though he's not a Belmont).

 I entertain it more out of experimentation, because I'm writting my own "Branching Timeline Hypothesis" to introduce in my project as a means to explain Dracula's presence and the involvement of time travellers.

EDIT: OK, I'm not sure if this new info destroys the entire hypothesis (probably does), but LoS2's intro takes place in the year 1547.

If Sonia existed in this timeline, then she did almost 100 years before this.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 26, 2015, 05:49:15 AM
Plot, I really wasn't being serious, I haven't played LOS2 and I have no idea about the story. Nor did I know he was put to sleep for hundreds of years. I should probably get around to playing it one day as I have it.

I simply thought the possibility was of interest :) Shame he's put to sleep for thousands of years...
However, the theory can still work, hear me out.
SCIV's Dracula Battle has a human form and a second form (but not a demonic form)
OOS' has one form and it's not demonic
LOD's Dracula isn't resurrected yet, one could say he's still dormant and trying to be resurrected.
64's Dracula is properly resurrected, but not in the bad ending - so it could still work, maybe?

Problem being SCIV's Castle crumbles, as does this theory. I think I best keep LOS out of it :P
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: KaZudra on October 26, 2015, 03:53:58 PM
Castlevania needs more St Germain, Aeon, and Time Reaper.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 26, 2015, 09:01:49 PM
Castlevania needs more St Germain, Aeon, and Time Reaper.

I don't know if that would better the series. However, I really believe that adding St Germain as the 2nd playable character to COD rather than Trevor would've been a much better and more interesting idea. The game could've had a completely different dynamic. 
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: KaZudra on October 27, 2015, 02:12:05 AM
I don't know if that would better the series. However, I really believe that adding St Germain as the 2nd playable character to COD rather than Trevor would've been a much better and more interesting idea. The game could've had a completely different dynamic.
It'll be great, Guilty Gear is a good example of crazy time travel alterations.
The Galamoth Wars could be a good basis, St Germain and Aeon are keeping Galamoth at bay, with the Presence of Dracula. But Dracula will never work with the good guys to Kill Galamoth, so They work a way to make Dracula into a good guy, probably fighting Time reaper along the way, a possible headcanon involves Julius actually Killing Dracula's actual Soul in 1999, just to find out Galamoth has waited for this moment to emerge, and since the good guys were only prepared for Dracula, they were completely overwhelmed, So Julius goes back to stop himself from completely killing Dracula to let him reincarnate and wipe his memories. thus a possible Sorrow 3 where Soma finally goes head to head with Galamoth.

this is just one example, the possibilities for games can be endless again (in iga/classic-verse)
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 27, 2015, 04:49:01 AM
It'll be great, Guilty Gear is a good example of crazy time travel alterations.
The Galamoth Wars could be a good basis, St Germain and Aeon are keeping Galamoth at bay, with the Presence of Dracula. But Dracula will never work with the good guys to Kill Galamoth, so They work a way to make Dracula into a good guy, probably fighting Time reaper along the way, a possible headcanon involves Julius actually Killing Dracula's actual Soul in 1999, just to find out Galamoth has waited for this moment to emerge, and since the good guys were only prepared for Dracula, they were completely overwhelmed, So Julius goes back to stop himself from completely killing Dracula to let him reincarnate and wipe his memories. thus a possible Sorrow 3 where Soma finally goes head to head with Galamoth.

this is just one example, the possibilities for games can be endless again (in iga/classic-verse)

Interesting potential. I don't know if I believe the soul even in a fictional sense could be destroyed though as the soul is a form of energy; which can only be converted from one form into another but never destroyed.

But it could be interesting if Julius went back to give himself amnesia and take the Vampire Killer off his past self. This would also explain why he could defeat Dracula then get amnesia, remembering he left the Vk behind but still having amnesia prior to that point in time.

The question is why didn't Dracula kill Galamoth himself, and if he couldn't why wouldn't he side with the forces of good and just try to kill them when their guard is lowered? Obviously Dracula doesn't have dominion over Galamoth, but this is not to say he could not find a way to destroy him. Mathias was a genius tactician of war, incredibly intelligent, one would doubt if he fears anyone. Didn't Alucard beat Galamoth in SOTN?

Also although non-canon the story you proposed is reminding me of LOS' final chapter where Gabriel fights TF1 in LOS.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: KaZudra on October 27, 2015, 03:02:22 PM
Interesting potential. I don't know if I believe the soul even in a fictional sense could be destroyed though as the soul is a form of energy; which can only be converted from one form into another but never destroyed.

But it could be interesting if Julius went back to give himself amnesia and take the Vampire Killer off his past self. This would also explain why he could defeat Dracula then get amnesia, remembering he left the Vk behind but still having amnesia prior to that point in time.

The question is why didn't Dracula kill Galamoth himself, and if he couldn't why wouldn't he side with the forces of good and just try to kill them when their guard is lowered? Obviously Dracula doesn't have dominion over Galamoth, but this is not to say he could not find a way to destroy him. Mathias was a genius tactician of war, incredibly intelligent, one would doubt if he fears anyone. Didn't Alucard beat Galamoth in SOTN?

Also although non-canon the story you proposed is reminding me of LOS' final chapter where Gabriel fights TF1 in LOS.

Maybe in time Galamoth and time reaper found a way to break free, knowing that Dracula can retain dominance at at given time, resides to hide in a void until the opportune time.
given how Galamoth was harder than Dracula in SoTN, and how in Judgement it required an entire Cast to stop him, I'd say he's grown to be as impossible as LoS' Forbidden one (okay, that was harder than Dracula XX Dracula).

But, of course, this is all theoratical but I think it could be a good direction to go. Dracula is evil, why not just finish him centuries ago? because he is a necessary evil, with the Belmont Clan or VK wielder keeping him in check, balance is kept, because if Dracula goes, something or someone greater may take his place.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: X on October 27, 2015, 03:29:49 PM
Quote
The question is why didn't Dracula kill Galamoth himself,

Because Dracula loves to torture his victims. His methods of impalement were designed fro prolonged suffering without killing the victim in question. Having Galamoth cooped up/locked away in the inverted catacombs, and tormenting him however Dracula sees fit, is far more effective then simply taking his life. If you want to bend something to your will, you must be prepared to break it as well. Dracula I'm sure knows that Galamoth wants to overthrow him. But he's not simply going to allow him to do-so without working for it.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on October 28, 2015, 12:09:12 AM
@KaZudra I like those ideas, putting a holistic approach to good/ evil which the Sorrow series started to touch upon. Saved for post 2000 based CV entries.
Galamoth being harder than Dracula is true, but then Dracula as Alucard is harder than Dracula as Richter (in the Prologue) when that is supposedly a centennial resurrection. So I think this is more to do with the player's progress (relatively) and Galamoth being the chosen hardest/ optional boss.

@X I understand that aspect of Dracula's dominance being asserted even though he's Mathias and not Vlad anymore. It's a valid point.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Super Waffle on November 02, 2015, 11:35:28 AM
I have a Haunted Castle theory.

You know how in Level 3 or 4, there's that one part where the game just stops and warps you into a bizarre alternate dimension with harpies attacking you? I think that's the universe all of the other Castlevania games take place in.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: X on November 02, 2015, 03:49:08 PM
It's stage 3 for sure. Yeah that place was rather unique. Simon (so far) is the only Belmont to be taken into such a realm. Maybe that place itself is a tine sliver of the chaotic realm.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on November 02, 2015, 10:04:38 PM
It's stage 3 for sure. Yeah that place was rather unique. Simon (so far) is the only Belmont to be taken into such a realm. Maybe that place itself is a tine sliver of the chaotic realm.

That zone looks more like Athens judging by the Architecture.

However, I actually believe it's Dracula's dimension within the Castle.
At the end of HC when Simon walks into the final room to fight Dracula, what flies in? A harpy.
What does that harpy transform into? Dracula form 1. To further back up my point, watch it on YouTube, the warp happens just as Simon approaches a painting of Dracula on the wall.
I think this dimension is the source of Dracula's power.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on November 05, 2015, 08:32:44 PM
That zone looks more like Athens judging by the Architecture.

However, I actually believe it's Dracula's dimension within the Castle.
At the end of HC when Simon walks into the final room to fight Dracula, what flies in? A harpy.
What does that harpy transform into? Dracula form 1. To further back up my point, watch it on YouTube, the warp happens just as Simon approaches a painting of Dracula on the wall.
I think this dimension is the source of Dracula's power.

Quite interesting. Those bits did confuae me when i first saw then, completely forgot abiut the harpy turning into drac plus painting thing. Thats actually awesome
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: chainsawmidget on November 07, 2015, 10:15:33 AM
There's actually a way to get around the whole "such and such couldn't have fought Dracula because at the time Dracula was dead/sealed away/ on vacation in Tahiti" stuff. 

There was a Hammer horror movie called Taste the Blood of Dracula where after Dracula was dead, somebody came along, gathered up his dried blood and ... well, you heard the title. 

And with that, the person was transformed and Dracula was reborn. 

So, let's say Dracula was dead/gone/whatever. 

Assuming a similar effect, somebody could have got some of his blood, or maybe his eye or fingernail or something consumed it, and was corrupted by it turning them into ... not really Dracula, but a copy of Dracula, possibly a weaker or flawed copy.  The real guy is still resting, but there's somebody else out there that's mostly Dracula, and may even believe themselves to be the real thing. 
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on November 10, 2015, 07:26:50 PM
There's actually a way to get around the whole "such and such couldn't have fought Dracula because at the time Dracula was dead/sealed away/ on vacation in Tahiti" stuff. 

There was a Hammer horror movie called Taste the Blood of Dracula where after Dracula was dead, somebody came along, gathered up his dried blood and ... well, you heard the title. 

And with that, the person was transformed and Dracula was reborn. 

So, let's say Dracula was dead/gone/whatever. 

Assuming a similar effect, somebody could have got some of his blood, or maybe his eye or fingernail or something consumed it, and was corrupted by it turning them into ... not really Dracula, but a copy of Dracula, possibly a weaker or flawed copy.  The real guy is still resting, but there's somebody else out there that's mostly Dracula, and may even believe themselves to be the real thing.

I've really want to see that film. Growing up with CV I wanted to watch Dracula films but my parents wouldn't let me. I went through my teen years without them either, getting into James Bond, and now I've been trying to watch the Drac movies. That works, though. It can make for an interesting plot for a game, and makes sense for HC.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on November 11, 2015, 01:56:02 PM
Can either of you recommend a movie that captures the essence of Castlevania/ Dracula that is preferably oldschool?

I hear Nosferatu is good but I'm not sure where to start with oldschool films.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: X on November 11, 2015, 03:58:18 PM
Quote
Can either of you recommend a movie that captures the essence of Castlevania/ Dracula that is preferably oldschool?

Well, there is the 80's cult classic movie Monster Squad. First time I saw that I could not help but be reminded of Castlevania. There are no whips and Belmonts but Dracula does have dominion over the other classic horror creatures seen in other classic films; Frankenstein's monster, the Wolfman, Creature from the Black Lagoon, The Mummy, etc. And I can't help but wonder if CV somehow inspired this film in some form or another.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on November 11, 2015, 04:26:09 PM
Can either of you recommend a movie that captures the essence of Castlevania/ Dracula that is preferably oldschool?

I hear Nosferatu is good but I'm not sure where to start with oldschool films.

Nosferatu is an amazing place to start. It's a classic, but when u watch it today its actually beautifully shot and the locations are terrific.

If you like action movies or spy movies, The Satanic Rites of Dracula is basically a spy film with Van Helsing helping the spies. It's cheesey but has some good parts. Also the last Drac movie with Christopher Lee (RIP, amazing actor)

Haven't seen it yet, and its not old school, but Van Helsing seems to literally be a Castlevania movie, Dracula and the universal monsters in league for an action film.

Conan isn't really horror, but the original Belmont crew definitely mustve had some inspiration. Plus, Medusa and skeletons and Greek mythology I believe exists all around those films.

Finally, look into the old school cult fantasy films, usually from Italy. Not all horror, but a lot of the crazy monsters an some action like in CV.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: chainsawmidget on November 12, 2015, 03:31:37 PM
I'd also suggest the movie Warlock. 

The main character is a holy warrior dressed in furs that even uses a whip while the villain of the piece is a rather suave and elegant magic user dressed all in black. 
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on November 12, 2015, 05:02:06 PM
I'd also suggest the movie Warlock. 

The main character is a holy warrior dressed in furs that even uses a whip while the villain of the piece is a rather suave and elegant magic user dressed all in black.

I've seen the SNES game based on the film, but hearing this makes me want to see the film badly now lol.

Forgot to mention Clash of the Titans and the Gorgon
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: X on November 12, 2015, 11:50:50 PM
Just make sure to watch the original Clash of the Titans. The recent remake left a lot to be desired despite the fact the Medusa was hot as hell  :-[
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on November 13, 2015, 12:02:27 AM
Just make sure to watch the original Clash of the Titans. The recent remake left a lot to be desired despite the fact the Medusa was hot as hell  :-[

Seen it 8) thanks
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Inccubus on November 13, 2015, 12:23:38 AM
Haven't seen it yet, and its not old school, but Van Helsing seems to literally be a Castlevania movie, Dracula and the universal monsters in league for an action film.

I'm convinced this movie was inspired by Castlevania. I remember seeing an early trailer where Gabriel (yeah, that is the name of the main character) throws a cross shaped boomerang blade thing, but was changed into a more shuriken looking thing in the final cut.
Moreover, in the video game adaptation of the movie there is a library in the castle and one of the books mentions the Belmont clan by name.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on November 13, 2015, 03:01:12 AM
I'm convinced this movie was inspired by Castlevania. I remember seeing an early trailer where Gabriel (yeah, that is the name of the main character) throws a cross shaped boomerang blade thing, but was changed into a more shuriken looking thing in the final cut.
Moreover, in the video game adaptation of the movie there is a library in the castle and one of the books mentions the Belmont clan by name.

You know what's ironic, I also believe this movie inspired LOS. The snow-covered mountains in the approach to Carmilla's Castle specifically. The atmosphere of LOS in the vampire stages felt very Van Helsing to me.

I'd say the inclusion of The Creature and Igor were enough to make me think of CV right off the bat. I mean how many horror flicks have all 3 in one film? That and "The Map" leading to Dracula's Castle (which they put a cool spin on) was always iconic in CV between levels.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on November 13, 2015, 04:52:12 AM
You know what's ironic, I also believe this movie inspired LOS. The snow-covered mountains in the approach to Carmilla's Castle specifically. The atmosphere of LOS in the vampire stages felt very Van Helsing to me.

I'd say the inclusion of The Creature and Igor were enough to make me think of CV right off the bat. I mean how many horror flicks have all 3 in one film? That and "The Map" leading to Dracula's Castle (which they put a cool spin on) was always iconic in CV between levels.

Funny how LoS inspired Dracula Untold. If you haven't seen it, its literally a LoS adaptation in all but name. I know it didn't get the best reviews, but I loved it (maybe because it was the movie that my gf and I saw before we got together lol). Action film starring Vlad, showing ghow he became a vampire.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on November 13, 2015, 05:12:10 AM
Funny how LoS inspired Dracula Untold. If you haven't seen it, its literally a LoS adaptation in all but name. I know it didn't get the best reviews, but I loved it (maybe because it was the movie that my gf and I saw before we got together lol). Action film starring Vlad, showing ghow he became a vampire.

The ending was also a complete rip-off of LOS too.
(click to show/hide)
My significant other was so looking forward to a sequel and I had to disappoint her saying "Sorry, but they've just copied Castlevania."
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on November 13, 2015, 05:57:12 AM
The ending was also a complete rip-off of LOS too.
(click to show/hide)
My significant other was so looking forward to a sequel and I had to disappoint her saying "Sorry, but they've just copied Castlevania."

Yeah. I said the same thing to my parents.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on November 13, 2015, 12:59:34 PM
The ending was also a complete rip-off of LOS too.
(click to show/hide)
My significant other was so looking forward to a sequel and I had to disappoint her saying "Sorry, but they've just copied Castlevania."

Literally. But hey, like they say, copying can be a form of flattery... But wow thy ending was 99% taken. I'd like a sequel to but I don't think the film broke even
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on November 23, 2015, 12:19:21 PM
As much as I would like it and see it and I would purely for the shockbuster value of seeing contemporary buildings fall at the whim of Dracula, I don't think they would be able to pull together a cohesive story set in the current day.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: darkmanx_429 on November 24, 2015, 12:44:25 AM
No one mentioned League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Dracula 2000 is also another good Drac Flick. (Don't bother with Dracula 3000 unless you just want to see a old school Dracula running through space...no really.)
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on November 24, 2015, 04:33:41 AM
No one mentioned League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Dracula 2000 is also another good Drac Flick. (Don't bother with Dracula 3000 unless you just want to see a old school Dracula running through space...no really.)

Please tell me they threw in ties to the constellation "Draco"
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on November 26, 2015, 02:44:18 AM
No one mentioned League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Dracula 2000 is also another good Drac Flick. (Don't bother with Dracula 3000 unless you just want to see a old school Dracula running through space...no really.)

I was looking at the Dracula 2000 trilogy (2000, Ascencion, Legacy), they seemed pretty good.
 
3000 was on my Netflix recommended list, and the artwork said it all ;D
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Super Waffle on November 27, 2015, 02:03:48 AM
Funny how LoS inspired Dracula Untold. If you haven't seen it, its literally a LoS adaptation in all but name. I know it didn't get the best reviews, but I loved it (maybe because it was the movie that my gf and I saw before we got together lol). Action film starring Vlad, showing ghow he became a vampire.

So basically it's replaced Van Helsing as the "If you want a Castlevania movie, just watch this, pretend it says Castlevania in the title, and pretend the main guy is named Belmont" movie?
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on November 27, 2015, 02:20:42 AM
So basically it's replaced Van Helsing as the "If you want a Castlevania movie, just watch this, pretend it says Castlevania in the title, and pretend the main guy is named Belmont" movie?

Yes. Gabe Belmont, specifically.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: Crying Freeman on November 27, 2015, 06:20:51 PM
Yes. Gabe Belmont, specifically.

Pretty much. Van Helsing is the classicvania movie, while Untold is the LoS movie.
Title: Re: Haunted Castle Theory
Post by: zangetsu468 on November 27, 2015, 10:45:21 PM
Gabriel Belmont = Aragorn x Keith Urban