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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Lumi Kløvstad on December 20, 2015, 11:53:33 PM

Title: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on December 20, 2015, 11:53:33 PM
1) A game starring the original Brotherhood of Light
It would have been awesome to have a spinoff that revolved around Zobek, Carmilla, and Cornell, and see what immense battles they got up to while they were human. The game could have been a huge shout out to Castlevania 3 just like the first game was essentially a love letter to Super Castlevania 4. It could have especially fleshed out Cornell, who is met early on in the first game, killed, and promptly forgotten about.

2) A DLC spinoff starring Victor Belmont in Lords 2
Victor was a character who featured prominently in the ad campaign of the game -- and made us all believe that the Belmonts were now so focused on killing Dracula and wiping out an "old shame" that they were willing to condemn the world to the end just to make that happen. While we never got that (frankly awesome) plotline in the game, we also barely got Victor at all in the game. He has his 15 minutes in the game and dies. We read later on that he found Gabriel Belmont's old gear in the ruins of the Old Castle. A DLC exploring that would have made for an awesome companion to Revelations as a set up for the main plot, and given us a more old school Belmont play style for a few hours, and allowed some more screentime to a criminally underused character.

3) A real story about Simon Belmont

Let's face it: Simon's segment of Mirror of Fate is almost insultingly inconsequential as he's effectively a decoy protagonist whose story is introduced, barely explored, and then never resolved in a meaningful or weighty manner. Give the man a real story.

Discuss.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: VladCT on December 21, 2015, 04:19:19 AM
Let's face it, LoS as a whole was a miserable little pile of wasted potential. :P
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on December 21, 2015, 07:01:49 AM
Calling all fanfic writers....
But really, in my opinion, "Meh, why bother."
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: theplottwist on December 21, 2015, 07:53:40 AM
"Lords of Shadow" starts too many threads, resolves nothing on Mirror of Fate, and starts even more unresolved threads in LoS2, resolving nothing at the end. On the story, things are like they are because they simply are. IGA pulled this off in a much more elegant fashion, leaving numerous clues for you to pick on without him having to flat out spill the beans for you.

I literally had to ask about a relativelly simple to explain detail to the developer because the game couldn't explain it clearly anywhere. It was so convoluted into itself and was so deluded in its grandeur that it lost its focus.

Seriously, this series had so much plot potential it's heart breaking.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: TatteredSeraph on December 21, 2015, 09:22:33 AM
The biggest issue was trying to cram far, far too much into just three games, especially the last one.  The LoS universe was ripe for some brilliant ideas, but they weren't given enough time to be fully developed because a certain high-up in particular just wanted to wash his hands of the series.  I'd also love to see things such as the Founders game, or what happened to Victor - that could be a wonderfully fleshed out, full game in and of itself.  Victor being informed of his family's great heritage, and, guided by a mysterious man who visits him (Alucard in a guise as a human with powers, a la Genya Arikado), finds his family's old heirloom artifacts.  Along the way, he refines his prowess as a hunter, as his guide prepares him for a coming darkness.  In the end, he discovers that Alucard is the vampire who aided his ancestor Simon, but he doesn't know that Alucard is himself his ancestor.  I'd also love to know what Alucard got up to during the intervening years between him and Simon defeating Dracula, and the castle seige, and from then until the present day.  In that initial 500 years, there are multiple chances for a Belmont to come and face Dracula.  After then, lots of other potential vampires for the Belmonts to hunt, and other monsters across the world.  It also surprised me a lot that the Brotherhood didn't have nasty machinations going on in places, manipulating stuff behind the scenes, not just in relation to the fates of Gabriel, Marie, and Trevor.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Nagumo on December 21, 2015, 02:08:02 PM
Thinking about the Lords of Shadow story in general makes me mad already.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: KaZudra on December 22, 2015, 05:41:28 AM
Let's face it, LoS as a whole was a miserable little pile of wasted potential. :P
All with a powerful anti-climax that left a hole in our hearts, I think the worst part is that it had the potential to be the best CV story-line but shitted away.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: TatteredSeraph on December 22, 2015, 05:59:07 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on December 22, 2015, 09:00:12 PM
Yes.

Ladies and gentlemen, the shortest and least contributing response ever. Come and see the wonder, the amazement, only $5 a ticket!
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: TatteredSeraph on December 23, 2015, 09:34:58 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, the shortest and least contributing response ever. Come and see the wonder, the amazement, only $5 a ticket!

Well thank you very much.  I'd contributed my thoughts earlier on and was simply agreeing with KaZudra's point.  I hadn't been able to sort out adding a quote to reply to the post as my phone was playing up.  Don't be so quick to judge.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on December 23, 2015, 11:29:11 PM
In my experience, if your response is just one word, it's generally better not to respond. Nothing against the law, but it doesn't take the discussion anywhere and actually can stall discussion. I don't want to seem like I'm mad at you or jumping down your throat here, but it's just an unspoken rule of discussion forums I have run afoul of in the past and so I'm passing that wisdom along.

The sarcasm was for my personal amusement though.








...okay nothing more to see here, resume discussion.

All with a powerful anti-climax

Doesn't even begin to describe it. The game explains nothing, it ends ambiguously, and Alvarez and Cox had to field questions on social media to explain things that the game should have at least suggested, like apparently Gabriel went on to become a benevolent dictator ruling and guarding mankind for eternity as God's chosen one.

Apparently. But how could you possibly guess that when nothing at all in the game even whispers that ahead of time? Furthermore, Dracula just wants to die. He's not particular as to how even. Zobek is offering him a final, permanent death (the one thing he craves more than anything else) and God is offering him... more of the living forever thing. Both offer a means to permanently off Satan for good. Why Gabe suddenly abandons Zobek's offer is another thing not well explained. Because... family. We guess. It's not very clear.

So yeah. The game does a piss poor job of explaining itself and an even worse job at actually ending things. We're promised a final permanent death (which we crave more than anything else) and we get another sequel hook.

Lovely.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: crisis on December 24, 2015, 07:45:21 PM
hay. ever take into consideration Satan's role? ok i admit, the idea of implementing him into the series was intriguing. in the original canon, there were clearly evil deities that existed before Dracula's reign. so where was Lucifer? the classic canon never even touched it. i always liked the idea of Dracula usurping Satan for Hell's throne, which i thought what would happen in the LoS saga.

instead we got essentially the opposite. i liked the way he was presented in the first game, not a giant monster with horns, but as a fallen angel. very unique. his downfall in LoS2, however, was akin to him simply being shot with a gun. thats it. no grand defeat, no dissolution of his soul into nothingness, just "oh shit im dead" and slumps over. WTF

specially since Alucard told Dracula how they can defeat him forever, never once did he say "all we have to do is stab him & thats it" a similar discussion can be made for zobek "lord of the dead" but

its like the writers just didnt know how to end it properly
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: theplottwist on December 24, 2015, 08:08:58 PM
i always liked the idea of Dracula usurping Satan for Hell's throne, which i thought what would happen in the LoS saga.

Well, in the original canon, Dracula IS referred in japanese by the same title given to Satan. In english it was translated as "Demon King" or "Dark Lord", but sometimes they let it slip, such as when naming the "Satan's Ring" appearing in Aria and Portrait, giving us the impression the ring belonged to Satan when, in japanese, this is not the case.

The ring, in fact, belongs to Dracula, not "Satan". It seems that the translators were not all that familiar with the lore, and named it "Satan's Ring" because the way "Dark Lord" is written in japanese translates as "Satan", "Devil" or "Lucifer". But the ring's name is "Dark Lord's Ring" and we all know Dracula is the Dark Lord.

So, I think it's possible "Satan" in the original canon is the title for the one atop the demon food chain, and not exactly Lucifer's name.

NOW in Lament of Innocence, there IS a sword named after Lucifer - even in japanese. So I think there is a possibility of Lucifer having existed in the original canon.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: olrox2 on December 25, 2015, 03:10:39 PM
One of the most disappointing fact of Los series is the feeling that  big names(names of famous characters in the series) were thrown in the middle of the game without being really developped.The countess Camilla for example. Since she is a recurrent ally of Dracula in other games, i was expecting a bigger role for her. Also, the way  Gabriel became a vampire (drinking laura's blood) lacked epicness. I would have wanted him to  make a pact with a powerful and ancient vampire, or perform a dark ritual in Scholomance.(i just read Dracula and its mentionned he may have got lessons in Scholomance)

Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Belmont Stakes on December 25, 2015, 08:14:33 PM
It would have been interesting if the last bosses were based on the higher ups at Konami. Do we get incentives for the player to play now??? I think we have our plot line and motivation.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on December 25, 2015, 08:37:52 PM
One of the most disappointing fact of Los series is the feeling that  big names(names of famous characters in the series) were thrown in the middle of the game without being really developped.The countess Camilla for example. Since she is a recurrent ally of Dracula in other games, i was expecting a bigger role for her. Also, the way  Gabriel became a vampire (drinking laura's blood) lacked epicness. I would have wanted him to  make a pact with a powerful and ancient vampire, or perform a dark ritual in Scholomance.(i just read Dracula and its mentionned he may have got lessons in Scholomance)

Damn Carmilla got a screwed deal in this series. She was a pretty cool antagonist for her 15 minutes of fame radiating a dark air of regency and command of her environment and even her opponents, and then when she shows up in a much larger deal in LOS2 she's a lovesick puppy who wants the D.

Talk about getting shafted with the bad end of the stick.

And that double euphemism is already better writing than she got in LOS2 to boot. In the first game, the personality of the three Lords gave you a great window into what they might have been like as heroes -- going out of its way to state that the three Lords were effectively dark mirrors of their human selves.

Cornell and Carmilla stole the show in the first game I think because they feel the most like characters. They appear briefly but are very well developed with full personalities and a way of speaking and conducting themselves that communicates more about them than what they actually say -- that's very hard for writers to get right. Cornell seems almost completely resigned to his death by the time you meet him, like he knew it was going to happen eventually and Gabe being the fighter to finally be good enough to reach him tells Cornell it's time for him to let go (but his Warrior's Blood refuses to simply go quietly). Carmilla is haughty and arrogant, but you can tell it's not a false veneer that she's put on; she's exactly as powerful and skilled as she claims she is. Even so, a tiny piece of the person she used to be squeezes through and she tries to resolve the situation without a fight -- admittedly in a villainous way by offering Gabriel vampirism and an eternity of "many pleasures" (Seriously should have taken that sweet deal Gabe).

Zobek though felt like a bit of a cheat given that I was never able to reconcile whose perspective the first game is meant to be from -- Zobek's, Gabriel's, or mine. As a result, while his narration (epic stuff) very easily telegraphs his status as the (decoy) overall villain as the story progresses, his actual face heel turn into the ham-and-cheese-sandwich that is Dark Lord of the Necromancers feels completely out of left field and almost random, like someone just flicked an "evil switch" on the back of his head and he was all "ok I have to be evil now lol".

And then Satan was GENUINELY out of left field as he's not alluded to at all in any way prior to his appearance (definitely qualifying as the Giant Space Flea from Nowhere (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere)), but nevertheless is given the same excellent writing and voice acting as Cornell and Carmilla did -- you sense a lot of his past, the broken feelings he possesses, his vindictiveness towards God, and you get a real impression of a truly fallen Angel. Jason Isaacs gives probably one of my top 3 performances as Satan (probably number 2; Al Pacino's just kind of unbeatable) and manages to make the Big Bad both sympathetic but also a force that you must oppose regardless of your feelings.

Like Carmilla, Satan is also ruined by his appearance in Lords 2. He's turned into a perma-scowling chicken legged muscled beefcake of a villain who is ended by very mundane means not long after he appears.

Clearly all that weightlifting he's done in the intervening millennium didn't help him at all.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: theplottwist on December 25, 2015, 09:51:16 PM
And then Satan was GENUINELY out of left field as he's not alluded to at all in any way prior to his appearance (definitely qualifying as the Giant Space Flea from Nowhere (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere)), but nevertheless is given the same excellent writing and voice acting as Cornell and Carmilla did -- you sense a lot of his past, the broken feelings he possesses, his vindictiveness towards God, and you get a real impression of a truly fallen Angel. Jason Isaacs gives probably one of my top 3 performances as Satan (probably number 2; Al Pacino's just kind of unbeatable) and manages to make the Big Bad both sympathetic but also a force that you must oppose regardless of your feelings.

I felt the same, but, to be fair, Satan was foreshadowed before.

When Gabriel reaches Baba Yaga, she goes on to rant about how Gabriel is doing Lucifer's job. After he leaves, Zobek kills her for speaking too much.

But yes, I agree that this is not enough foreshadowing. Satan doesn't feel like the logical conclusion here.

I also think the game is from Gabriel's perspective and that this combo of WHAM episodes were meant for us to feel like Gabriel feels: Utterly confused.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on December 25, 2015, 10:47:31 PM
she goes on to rant about how Gabriel is doing Lucifer's job.

Which is a common expression from the period for "I morally disagree with this thing you are doing", and even if she were being literal, both the player and Gabriel would assume her intended meaning was more disagreement with the ethics of his actions.

After he leaves, Zobek kills her for speaking too much.

She didn't say too much.

Zobek almost says word for word that he killed her because she approached saying too much and he didn't want to risk her chasing Gabriel down and spilling the rest of the beans. She'd said enough to get Gabriel moving on towards the end Zobek wanted, so the murder was simply threat containment for him. She had no further use for him and he didn't fancy her knowledge being a wildcard value in his plans.

She wasn't killed because of what she said, but instead because of what she MIGHT say.

But yes, I agree that this is not enough foreshadowing. Satan doesn't feel like the logical conclusion here.

Especially when you consider that Baba Yaga served her mythological narrative purpose: to make vague statements that come true regardless of the conditions going in. One of her roles in mythology is to spin people into self-fulfilling prophecies. She could just make something up off the top of her head, no truth to it whatsoever, but by treating it as an unflappable prophecy she will get people to try to avert it and therefore behave in a manner she desires -- also causing the fake prophecy to become real in the process.

In essence, her mythological counterpart is a quack fortune teller who excels at the Batman Gambit.

In Lords of Shadow, this role is taken up (somewhat more effectively) by Zobek. Almost everything he says will happen does, even if he had no way of knowing for sure it would when he began the whole plot. He was just that confident a manipulator and Gabriel was that easily duped that he behaved exactly the way Zobek anticipated when presented with the right push.

Which makes what Satan pulls a Double Batman Gambit: he presents Zobek with the right "prize" causing Zobek to behave a certain way, which involves doing exactly the same thing to Gabriel Belmont. Both men end up acting 100% as Satan anticipates. If either Zobek or Gabriel had possessed a single moment of persisting doubt, or if someone like Marie or Pan just had the damn guts to tell Gabriel the whole truth at the outset, the entire plan would have crumbled and Satan would at the very least had to start over with completely new targets, or he may have been entirely thwarted altogether.

Really, the plot of Lords 1 is a whole bunch of people trying to outscheme each other with the exact same plan and Gabriel is the dupe who falls for ALL OF IT. Even Zobek says, quite literally, "And YOU were the perfect. dupe."

Gabriel even winds up a vampire, exactly as Carmilla desired.

And then, according to Mirror of Fate, the Brotherhood of Light were pulling this on Gabriel more or less the whole time. It's unclear when the Mirror precisely told them about Gabriel becoming Dracula, but they definitely knew before they even sent him on the mission seen in Lords of Shadow 1... which meant the MIRROR OF GODDAMN FATE WAS DOING THIS TO GABRIEL TOO.

Seriously, that guy had a lot of shit coming his way from day 1.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: theplottwist on December 25, 2015, 11:17:18 PM
Here, I didn't remember what she said at the time I responded, but watch this:



She mentions "the king of angels" being her master and having told her Gabriel was coming. This specific line also upsets Zobek:



So this is quite some foreshadowing.

Really, the plot of Lords 1 is a whole bunch of people trying to outscheme each other with the exact same plan and Gabriel is the dupe who falls for ALL OF IT. Even Zobek says, quite literally, "And YOU were the perfect. dupe."

Gabriel even winds up a vampire, exactly as Carmilla desired.

And then, according to Mirror of Fate, the Brotherhood of Light were pulling this on Gabriel more or less the whole time. It's unclear when the Mirror precisely told them about Gabriel becoming Dracula, but they definitely knew before they even sent him on the mission seen in Lords of Shadow 1... which meant the MIRROR OF GODDAMN FATE WAS DOING THIS TO GABRIEL TOO.

Seriously, that guy had a lot of shit coming his way from day 1.

And this makes me so mad.

Gabriel had NO FREE WILL WHATSOEVER EVER. He was quite possibly one of the most easily manipulated characters in videogame history. It feels so mechanical it was hard for me to sympathize with Gabriel, even if I liked the first game more than the two others.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on December 25, 2015, 11:54:06 PM
Fate being inescapable is a recurring theme in the LOS saga -- and that to see the future is to lock that future in with no alternatives. It's part of why Alucard tells Simon to give up his shard of the mirror: relying on the mirror and not on himself will never give Simon a happy ending. Gabriel and Trevor had both been bound by the powers of fate, which arranged everything that followed into a path that could only lead to personal tragedy and heartbreak.

Still, you have to bow before the incredible stupidity of the Brotherhood though.



"This magical mirror which foretells the future and has never been wrong says that if we send that Belmont kid on this mission he'll turn into a Vampire Lord and kill us all."

"Lol we should send him on exactly that mission then."

"But first we tell his wife and tell her never to tell him, and kidnap his only son that he doen't even know exists. And raise that son to kill his father after his dad becomes a vampire lord. "

"Maybe we should... you know... NOT send the Belmont kid on that mission? And send someone else who WON'T become a vampire lord and kill us all?"

"lol shut up Tom."

"This plan couldn't possibly fail and end in tragedy for us all amirite"





With guys like that training him, is it any wonder Gabriel wound up so gullible?
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Claimh Solais on December 30, 2015, 12:22:16 AM
She mentions "the king of angels" being her master and having told her Gabriel was coming.

Yeah, that's the most foreshadowing we got. It's a similar case to what happened with DmC: Devil May Cry's final boss...

(click to show/hide)

Thinking on it now, what's up with Western reboots of Japanese franchises and their horrible foreshadowing?

I don't know in all honesty about LoS' story in hindsight. When playing it, I didn't think too much on it because I really enjoyed it. But in the end, now that I've gotten some pretty good hindsight on it (and LoS2 is now almost two years old), it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. To be fair, the other games didn't, but that's A: only when you put them in the grand scheme of things (they made some decent sense as standalone games), and B: they didn't have stories on as massive a scale as LoS, so their problems weren't as obvious.

Overall, though, I'm about as mad about the underuse of Victor as you are. I was REALLY excited for him, and after playing through the game, I about had the same reaction as everyone else. "Wait, wait what. WHY." Seriously, his last thought had to have been, "You've gotta be kidding me." after we found out the person that they were looking for, THE PERSON HE DIED TO FIND, was in the building right in front of him.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Kingshango on December 30, 2015, 11:08:25 AM
Just wanted to point out that Satan was name dropped by Cornell, twice.

But since it happens so early on, his appearance at the end just seemed out of nowhere since most players would have forgotten by then. I know I sure as shit did.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: X on December 30, 2015, 04:12:46 PM
The only real thing I'm mad about LoS is that the creator lied to us about certain aspects of the game before it was released. Getting us all hyped up for nothing is the worst thing you can do to fans of a longtime running franchise. But despite that I still gave the game a chance to prove I was wrong about it.

Nope. I was right. My gut instinct won out again though I didn't pay any real attention to it.

And by making LoS into a AAA title utilizing other games' elements, the true identity of Castlevania was lost in translation somewhere. As other have pointed out, the game is Castlevania in name only.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on December 30, 2015, 10:02:45 PM
by making LoS into a AAA title utilizing other games' elements, the true identity of Castlevania was lost in translation somewhere. As other have pointed out, the game is Castlevania in name only.

Thing is, it's a pretty brilliant riff on Castlevania at most points. It may be seriously flawed, but that didn't undermine that it was widely bought, and, outside of us core fans, it was well enjoyed.

In that same "does it feel like Castlevania" debate that went on for YEARS, someone pointed out that if you took the Original Castlevania, Symphony of the Night, Lament of Innocence, Curse of Darkness, and Lords of Shadow and put them in a showdown of gameplay, you'd have almost no idea they were all in the same series just by how they play -- you'd need the Castlevania branding and story conventions to effectively communicate that, because boy howdy, they don't really play all that similarly.

At their most basic gameplay descriptions, you have

Castlevania is Contra with a Whip
Symphony of the Night is Metroid with a Sword
Lament of Innocence is Devil May Cry with a Whip
Curse of Darkness is Dynasty Warriors with Vampires
Lords of Shadow is God of War with Patrick Stewart

Honestly, the series has jumped play styles a LOT since its inception.

Is Lords of Shadow a Castlevania? Hell yeah it is. There's just enough narrative echoes there to qualify. But it's like Circle of the Moon -- yes, it's Castlevania, but it's also its own self-contained thing; divorced from the primary series into which it doesn't factor, attempting to carry out its own narrative arc (this thread kind of proved it failed though) while not being beholden to anything specific from prior games before.

Lords didn't lose the "true identity" of Castlevania in translation. Castlevania never HAD a "true identity" it could lose. It's been a lot of things over time, and it really has to be able to change and adapt like that because that's the only way franchises survive.

Now, whether Castlevania survives this current incarnation of Konami is the big question. If, when Konami decides to stop letting the inmates run the asylum, they decide to make another Castlevania, it'll happen. It'll also be pretty good most likely, as a company with an apology to make makes a DAMN GOOD APOLOGY.

But it WILL be different. It won't be what we had before. And that's good. That's natural. If you like what we had before, those games still exist. If you like the style of those games that came before, GOOD NEWS! We have Bloodstained coming and a whole bunch of REALLY AWESOME fangames!

But Castlevania's true identity is that it changes with the times. It's not one thing, or even one thing constantly evolving like other series like Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden. Castlevania's life story is one of sudden and violent mutation -- after years going in one direction and steadily refining itself as evolution dictates, suddenly POW! shifts and changes rapidly into this whole new thing that kind of looks like what came before but not really.

These seeds were laid in the beginning with Simon's Quest and Vampire Killer, and they contribute an inescapable and necessary component to the series longevity.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: X on December 31, 2015, 05:49:19 AM
Quote
Lords didn't lose the "true identity" of Castlevania in translation. Castlevania never HAD a "true identity" it could lose.

I'll try to explain why I feel the identity of CV was lost in LoS. It's true that many CV games over the years have many similarities with other games as you had mentioned:

Castlevania is Contra with a Whip
Symphony of the Night is Metroid with a Sword
Lament of Innocence is Devil May Cry with a Whip
Curse of Darkness is Dynasty Warriors with Vampires
Lords of Shadow is God of War with Patrick Stewart


But the thing is that while these are noticeable, IGA had manage to keep all these games feeling like Castlevania. One of the few things he done the series right by. I did not feel anything like that with LoS. At all. And yes I played the first game as much as I could tolerate. There in wholly lies what I feel is the difference. The identity of Castlevania for me is the feeling I get when playing it. LoS just didn't have that CV feeling for me and this is why I personally feel that the identity of Castlevania was lost in translation through LoS.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on December 31, 2015, 07:07:35 AM
At their most basic gameplay descriptions, you have
Castlevania is Contra with a Whip
Symphony of the Night is Metroid with a Sword
Lament of Innocence is Devil May Cry with a Whip
Curse of Darkness is Dynasty Warriors with Vampires
Lords of Shadow is God of War with Patrick Stewart

hehehe, Patrick Stewart.
But I agree with X. The mood/the feel is what makes a game Castlevania and not the gameplay.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: e105beta on December 31, 2015, 04:26:00 PM
Victor Belmont was the biggest waste of potential in all of LoS.

The ending to LoS2 gave me the biggest case of blue balls in the history of the universe.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Dracula9 on January 01, 2016, 09:06:50 AM
The first appearance of the lord of fallen angels is darkly beautiful and just the right amount of unsettling, only for him to turn into Brock Lesner with ass wings for no explained reason.

Said pseudo-Brock Lesner, the lord of darkness and primary root and source of all evil, then dies from a single stab wound (because Satan is apparently a basic-ass vampire grunt now, everyone) and slumps over unceremoniously. That's it. The source of all evil and the antithesis of God is killed and literally nothing happens to him. No soul dissipation, no flashy death scene, no gut-wrenching screams, nothing.

These two reasons alone showcase the potential wasted by those idiots heading the trilogy. They had the root of all evil personified and written out for them already, and they still managed to fuck him up beyond comprehension. As far as I'm concerned, everything else they botched is just a shitload more fuel for the (hell)fire. If you fuck up having Satan as your antag, then you're doing something very, very wrong.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: AlexCalvo on January 02, 2016, 02:33:13 AM
Thing is, it's a pretty brilliant riff on Castlevania at most points. It may be seriously flawed, but that didn't undermine that it was widely bought, and, outside of us core fans, it was well enjoyed.

In that same "does it feel like Castlevania" debate that went on for YEARS, someone pointed out that if you took the Original Castlevania, Symphony of the Night, Lament of Innocence, Curse of Darkness, and Lords of Shadow and put them in a showdown of gameplay, you'd have almost no idea they were all in the same series just by how they play -- you'd need the Castlevania branding and story conventions to effectively communicate that, because boy howdy, they don't really play all that similarly.

At their most basic gameplay descriptions, you have

Castlevania is Contra with a Whip
Symphony of the Night is Metroid with a Sword
Lament of Innocence is Devil May Cry with a Whip
Curse of Darkness is Dynasty Warriors with Vampires
Lords of Shadow is God of War with Patrick Stewart

Honestly, the series has jumped play styles a LOT since its inception.

Is Lords of Shadow a Castlevania? Hell yeah it is. There's just enough narrative echoes there to qualify. But it's like Circle of the Moon -- yes, it's Castlevania, but it's also its own self-contained thing; divorced from the primary series into which it doesn't factor, attempting to carry out its own narrative arc (this thread kind of proved it failed though) while not being beholden to anything specific from prior games before.

Lords didn't lose the "true identity" of Castlevania in translation. Castlevania never HAD a "true identity" it could lose. It's been a lot of things over time, and it really has to be able to change and adapt like that because that's the only way franchises survive.

Now, whether Castlevania survives this current incarnation of Konami is the big question. If, when Konami decides to stop letting the inmates run the asylum, they decide to make another Castlevania, it'll happen. It'll also be pretty good most likely, as a company with an apology to make makes a DAMN GOOD APOLOGY.

But it WILL be different. It won't be what we had before. And that's good. That's natural. If you like what we had before, those games still exist. If you like the style of those games that came before, GOOD NEWS! We have Bloodstained coming and a whole bunch of REALLY AWESOME fangames!

But Castlevania's true identity is that it changes with the times. It's not one thing, or even one thing constantly evolving like other series like Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden. Castlevania's life story is one of sudden and violent mutation -- after years going in one direction and steadily refining itself as evolution dictates, suddenly POW! shifts and changes rapidly into this whole new thing that kind of looks like what came before but not really.

These seeds were laid in the beginning with Simon's Quest and Vampire Killer, and they contribute an inescapable and necessary component to the series longevity.

No offense, but this just really seems like an attempt to justify the huge changes that came in LoS, and I would call it a very innacurate view of the series' history and evolution.  There simply was never anything even close to the jump we had to LoS.  Sure change has been a constant throughout the series, but not such drastic change.  Sure we've had other final bosses then Dracula, stories that don't fit into the overall continuity, drastic changes changes in tone, art style, musical style, etc...  But never so many drastic changes at once.

The games you listed as being seemingly non related is really just a false equivalency.  Anyone who played LoI would instantly know that Cod was the same series, the gameplay was a little different, but their was enough the same to make it obvious.  I would say the same thing in terms of Cv1 and SoTN (even though it is a little unfair given how much the series had eveolved in the interim.)  While there was a very different gameplay style we still had the same enemy types, same basic level layout structure, and above all a continuing continuity.  Some people like to say that story doesn't really count in linking games but I call BS on that.  Story is as much a part of a game or series as anything else.

Cotm changed story, but still kep the gameplay mechanics virtually untouched, as well as types of enemies and bosses.

SoTN had a dramatic gameplay change but still continued the same story, name dropping several characters from previous games in the series.  And again kept the same monster mash theme, while applying it to a more gothic romantic atmosphere.

The sorrow games gave us a new setting (futuristic) and a basically Dracula-less experience, but still kept the exact same atmosphere and play style of previous games.

And while games like LoI and CoD radically changed the combat... again, story, setting, atmosphere were all very familiar to series regulars.

And while several games have adjusted the art style, music stye, and the cinematic style of the games, none of these things had been so dramatically changed all at once as they were with LoS.  And it is certainly no coincidence that virtually all of these changes moved into the direction of "what's popular at the moment?"  And while this is fine from a business perspective, it is utterly putrid from and artistic perspective, and even worse from the perspective of respecting the series.

LoS was a fun game, but the truth is that if it didn't have the Castlevania in the title no one would have made much of a connection.  And while this might be true to some extent in some of the previous games, it never came close to the level that we see in LoS.  If you really want to see an example of just how much LoS strayed, compare it to MoF.  MoF it is a dramatic reinterpretation of what Castlevania has always been, shaking things up while still retaining enough to feel like it is part of the series.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Dracula9 on January 02, 2016, 03:15:28 AM
Mirror of Fate was an abysmal piece of rubbish and should not be cited as an example of how things should have been done.

LoS1 at least was good in its own right. The two aren't really comparable, as LoS1 is still a decent game if you remove the Castlevania affiliation. Consequently, Mirror of Fate is still a bad game if you remove the affiliation.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 02, 2016, 03:44:56 AM
No offense, but this just really seems like an attempt to justify the huge changes that came in LoS, and I would call it a very innacurate view of the series' history and evolution.  There simply was never anything even close to the jump we had to LoS.  Sure change has been a constant throughout the series, but not such drastic change.  Sure we've had other final bosses then Dracula, stories that don't fit into the overall continuity, drastic changes changes in tone, art style, musical style, etc...  But never so many drastic changes at once.

Aaaand.... that's not allowed? For some reason?

Look, if this were a MAIN ENTRY in the primary series, I'd be pissing blood because I'd be so mad. But Lords of Shadow is pretty far removed from the classic series.

The games you listed as being seemingly non related is really just a false equivalency.  Anyone who played LoI would instantly know that Cod was the same series, the gameplay was a little different, but their was enough the same to make it obvious.  I would say the same thing in terms of Cv1 and SoTN (even though it is a little unfair given how much the series had eveolved in the interim.)  While there was a very different gameplay style we still had the same enemy types, same basic level layout structure, and above all a continuing continuity.  Some people like to say that story doesn't really count in linking games but I call BS on that.  Story is as much a part of a game or series as anything else.

Someone wasn't paying attention. I said if you took the narrative hallmarks of Castlevania (and the Castlevania branding) away, you'd have a bunch of similar but almost totally different games.

LOI and COD could be identified as the work of the same creative studio, but we've had those in other franchises before.

The sorrow games gave us a new setting (futuristic)

Given that they have almost the exact same visual setting as 90% of the series, no they really didn't. The most we got was Dawn's opening segment in which we as players spend about fifteen minutes in and it's basically every other Castlevania village ever. Just with cars this time. Oh, and that one-room area where the tutorial is held that is basically a floor. WITH BUILDINGS IN THE BACKDROP.

And Aria didn't even bother. The total non-Castle environments you see are basically... a staircase at the beginning and a cliff at the end.

And while several games have adjusted the art style, music stye, and the cinematic style of the games, none of these things had been so dramatically changed all at once as they were with LoS.  And it is certainly no coincidence that virtually all of these changes moved into the direction of "what's popular at the moment?"  And while this is fine from a business perspective, it is utterly putrid from and artistic perspective, and even worse from the perspective of respecting the series.

Again, is this a crime? Lords is plenty respectful. Well, the first and MoF are. Lords 2 is just inexcusable.


LoS was a fun game, but the truth is that if it didn't have the Castlevania in the title no one would have made much of a connection.  And while this might be true to some extent in some of the previous games, it never came close to the level that we see in LoS.  If you really want to see an example of just how much LoS strayed, compare it to MoF.  MoF it is a dramatic reinterpretation of what Castlevania has always been, shaking things up while still retaining enough to feel like it is part of the series.

And yet if Mirror of Fate had come first, everyone STILL would have pissed all over it for not being a "true" Castlevania game.

Because that's what "true" fans do.

Lords has just as much right to call itself Castlevania as Final Fantasy Type 0 can call itself a Final Fantasy game -- there are just certain expectations we associate with the names. For Final Fantasy, it can pretty plainly be broken down. Moogles, Chocobos, a Guy Named Cid, etc. It's much more obvious when a game doesn't belong because it doesn't have the obvious "ethnic traits" of games that have the Final Fantasy lineage.

Castlevania's DNA is much less obvious and more subjective to boot. Gothic settings are expected, and are about the only given of the franchise. Dark Fantasy is common. There's usually a whip, but not always. There's usually a Belmont, but not always. There's usually Dracula, but not always. The music usually sounds a certain way, but not always. The art usually looks a certain way, but not always.

Final Fantasy is actually more homogenous in the things that always appear in each game than Castlevania, but each game is almost totally different.

Lords is a perfect example of the "but not always" that have pervaded the series, but it subverts almost all of them in some way. The Belmont and Dracula are both present but the same guy. He uses a whip. The art style sure isn't Ayami Kojima, or the High Gothic look she made so iconic, but it's more of a combination of the early 1990's art styles with an injection of High Fantasy resulting in Lords 1 being basically Super Castlevania IV on steroids and Lords 2 being Lament of Innocence/Curse of Darkness on steroids. The music in the more introspective moments takes cues from earlier Castlevania games (Waterfalls of Agharta being the most flagrantly obvious, but Belmont's Theme in particular could fit almost anywhere in the series, and the soundtrack for Lords 2 is a much closer match to what we've come to expect from Castlevania though still not exact).

There is a common DNA that runs through both franchises, and Lords definitely has it for Castlevania. It's just more of a nephew twice removed than a direct heir.

The only constant in Castlevania is that things don't stay constant. With Lords of Shadow, the old elements are still present but are far more subtle, with new elements coming forward to say "This is not that main show. This is something new."

I'm kind of glad of that, because I felt then (and still do) that a huge shakeup was needed.
And the wallets of customers everywhere agreed.

Again, it's safe to pull what Lords did within the context that it did because it wasn't coming forward to fuck up the main series -- it's creative sandbox disconnected from the overall series. I'm much happier that these drastic changes were played with in a gaiden series than the primary franchise where such sudden and huge changes would have surely ruined everything.

Some of those changes are surely going to enter the main franchise if/when someone picks up production of a new game.

Probably, any new project will be a fusion of the two series.

Taken as what it is, a experiment on new things in a creative sandbox, Lords of Shadow is fantastic, and is worthy of being included in the Castlevania family. Now, I don't think it ought to be continued (owing to its many failings), but it's not bad for a Nephew Twice Removed.

But I'm sure all of us are hoping for a new heir to the classic series soon.

I'm hoping for a new reboot more similar to the primary franchise (basically starting the primary franchise over) to make it less daunting as a buy-in for new customers, but stylistically and narratively similar to the Igavania era with the 3D playstyle that Lords accomplished so well.

May such a new series live for 10 or more titles.
Title: Re: Lords of Shadow stories I'm mad weren't explored
Post by: JayDominus on January 13, 2016, 07:55:09 AM
Lords of Shadow had a truckload of wasted potential that could make for some amazing games. A pity they spent LOS2's dev time jerking Alvarez off. I don't hate LOS2, but had it had a good director at the helm, it would've been marvelous as opposed to "it's actually much better than critics make it out to be". To me LOS' fall from grace is especially painful because to me, as a fan of the older series who really disliked Ayumi's art style and all the post-SOTN story elements, LoS was the chance to finally once again do Castlevania *right*.