The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: theplottwist on January 03, 2016, 01:07:47 PM
Title: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: theplottwist on January 03, 2016, 01:07:47 PM
Wild speculation time! Watch this:
Now, pay attention to what Hector says:
"This unearthly power... Is it coming from that tombstone?"
Tombstone...?
"How consciencious of him. He carved the instructions into stone along with the most difficult visualization."
Wait what? What instructions?
Now, if you use your imagination, you can see that instructions CAN be carved into a tombstone. There is enough space to write in it and etc. But what we see is clearly not a tombstone, and I see no instructions "carved" anywhere. Furthermore, there is this:
"Heed my words, O great powers of darkness! Release to me one of the tortured souls! Let me infuse him with my life-force and awaken him to the world of the living! Immaculate being, appear before me know!"
Now, he says a bunch of things here. First he asks the darkness to release to him one of the tortured souls presumably being kept inside it. Then he wishes to infuse "him" with "life force", and "awaken" him to the "world of the living". This looks like he pretty much is trying to revive something dead, or infuse a dead body with life. One could argue that the fairy statue is it's "dead form" but what about the tombstone?
Finally, this encantation is most likely the "instructions carved into the tombstone". There is no way in hell all of this is carved into that tiny fairy statue.
So yeah, I think they didn't initially plan for this "innocent devil" thing, but actually wanted something more akin to necromancy. But this specific voice over was already done by the time they did the modifications, so they left it in. What do you think?
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: X on January 03, 2016, 04:17:15 PM
I don't think Devil forging is the same as Necromancy. We know that Necromancy is to reanimate the dead. What Hector is doing is infusing life into an inanimate object that was never alive to begin with. It was simply a statue. He probably asked the underworld to release a tortured soul into the stone itself and then use his life force to animate the stone for the soul to be able to dwell in it without any problems. This is only speculation so don't chew me out on this one :)
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: Nagumo on January 03, 2016, 05:45:51 PM
If you can find the Japanese script, I'll take a look at it for you. I never gave that scene much thought but I'm guessing the dialogue may have been tweaked a little bit to make it more "accesible".
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 03, 2016, 06:12:17 PM
Devil forging is one of those mechanics reviewers laughed at ("It's goth Pokemon!") but honestly it's a crafting mechanic that saw stuff like what we now have in Fallout coming miles away, and I'm actually kind of bummed that it never reappeared in a more refined and less grindy state, even if Innocent Devils didn't come with the package.
That, here's my take.
Devil Forging can be used to accomplish Necromancy, but it is not specifically that -- it's much broader a power that also involves creating golems, homonculi, and engaging in alchemic arts as well as black magic. It makes sense as Dracula was probably deriving it from arts and sciences he was already familiar with. So there's necromancy in there, but the whole art is not necromantic.
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: theplottwist on January 04, 2016, 12:41:06 AM
I think you guys didn't get what I meant. Devil Forging is CLEARLY not necromancy. There are many stark differences. Devil Forging doesn't even look like necromancy - as we understand it at least.
My speculation is about the development process. It looks like Devil Forging wasn't meant to "create demons out of inanimate objects" or some sort of transforming alchemy, but to revive a dead body infusing it with life or a soul.
The dialogue made me feel as if the scene itself was built AFTER the voice work was done. By the time the writting was created, the idea was for Devil Forging to be some sort of necromancy (due to the things I pointed above) but, by the time they created the scene itself, the concept had changed.
If you can find the Japanese script, I'll take a look at it for you. I never gave that scene much thought but I'm guessing the dialogue may have been tweaked a little bit to make it more "accesible".
Nagumo, I couldn't find it in text, but I did find it in voice work. Watch from 5:35:
I think you guys didn't get what I meant. Devil Forging is CLEARLY not necromancy. There are many stark differences. Devil Forging doesn't even look like necromancy - as we understand it at least.
My speculation is about the development process. It looks like Devil Forging wasn't meant to "create demons out of inanimate objects" or some sort of transforming alchemy, but to revive a dead body infusing it with life or a soul.
The dialogue made me feel as if the scene itself was built AFTER the voice work was done. By the time the writting was created, the idea was for Devil Forging to be some sort of necromancy (due to the things I pointed above) but, by the time they created the scene itself, the concept had changed.
I'm sticking with my hypothesis, sorry. I think it explains it better than you did.
Quote
Devil Forging can be used to accomplish Necromancy, but it is not specifically that -- it's much broader a power that also involves creating golems, homonculi, and engaging in alchemic arts as well as black magic. It makes sense as Dracula was probably deriving it from arts and sciences he was already familiar with. So there's necromancy in there, but the whole art is not necromantic.
In other words, it derives inspiration from Alchemy (in which we know Dracula to be proficient), Necromancy (In which Dracula is heavily implied to be, if not proficient, then at least fully capable of), and good old fashioned sorcery (in which, again, Dracula is something of an expert). It's not ANY of those things, but something new born when Dracula attempted to combine elements of each that he found favorable to his purposes into something new.
Devil Forging is its own thing entirely -- but it has many roots, one of which is necromancy.
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: VladCT on January 04, 2016, 01:10:39 AM
I think he was talking about the concept of how Devil Forging is executed possibly having changed from what it was initially supposed to be, not what Devil Forging is. Think of how Sol Badguy in Guilty Gear Overture went from this (http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-27/gg2o-sol-badguy-concept.html) in concepts to this (http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-27/gg2o-sol-badguy.html) in-game.
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: theplottwist on January 04, 2016, 01:18:10 AM
I think he was talking about the concept of how Devil Forging is executed possibly having changed from what it was initially supposed to be, not what Devil Forging is. Think of how Sol Badguy in Guilty Gear Overture went from this (http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-27/gg2o-sol-badguy-concept.html) in concepts to this (http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-27/gg2o-sol-badguy.html) in-game.
Exactly this.
I'm not trying to discover what Devil Forging is as a concept inside the story. I'm speculating about what the developers had in mind BEFORE it became what it is now, and I think the dialogue is a remnant of this change. Hector is talking about things that aren't on the screen (tombstone, instructions carved into stone) leading me to believe that the scene in itself was not meant to be like it is now.
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 04, 2016, 01:23:38 AM
I'd always assumed the "tombstone" was just the stone pedestal in front of the platform as it looks sort of similar to one, and it has fuzzy text on it that I'd assumed was the "difficult visualization" that Hector mentioned and we just couldn't read it because damn that 480p fuzziness.
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 04, 2016, 03:26:46 AM
I'd always assumed the "tombstone" was just the stone pedestal in front of the platform as it looks sort of similar to one
Same here. If it's not a tomb, what else is it ?
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: Inccubus on January 04, 2016, 06:59:06 AM
A pedestal. Most tombstones are not in the shape of a pedestal, though it isn't beyond the realm of possibility. And to get semantic, it's definitely not a tomb as those are a type of building.
I think the translation of the Japanese version may shed a little light on the matter, though.
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: Nagumo on January 04, 2016, 08:48:52 AM
I think I understand what's going on. First of all, it doesn't say "tombstone", it says "stone monument". The second thing is the best part, though. What Hector was exactly saying was that Isaac was kind enough to create a extremely difficult to make stone image/sculpture (it's that fairy thingie) so Hector didn't have to do it himself. The only thing he had to do then was put a soul in it. So whoever translated this scene added a completely made up bit about Isaac literally carving the instructions somewhere on that stone monument and apperently treating Hector like he is a total idiot. I took a look at the spell he is chanting and it does say something about a soul, but it was a bit too difficult to me to translate.
Extra proof, ther's a koma comic which depicts Isaac sculpting the bodies of Innocent Devils: http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-cod/officialart/comic9.gif (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-cod/officialart/comic9.gif)
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: theplottwist on January 04, 2016, 09:06:02 AM
I think I understand what's going on. First of all, it doesn't say "tombstone", it says "stone monument". The second thing is the best part, though. What Hector was exactly saying was that Isaac was kind enough to create a extremely difficult to make stone image/sculpture (it's that fairy thingie) so Hector didn't have to do it himself. The only thing he had to do then was put a soul in it. So whoever translated this scene added a completely made up bit about Isaac literally carving the instructions somewhere on that stone monument and apperently treating Hector like he is a total idiot. I took a look at the spell he is chanting and it does say something about a soul, but it was a bit too difficult to me to translate.
Extra proof, ther's a koma comic which depicts Isaac sculpting the bodies of Innocent Devils: http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-cod/officialart/comic9.gif (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-cod/officialart/comic9.gif)
So this settles it. Thanks Nagumo \(^0^)/
One more case of "retarded translation knows nothing" in the Castlevania history.
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: Mystic Myotis on January 04, 2016, 11:11:22 AM
It's a variation of a golem spell. Duh.
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: Nagumo on January 04, 2016, 12:38:37 PM
It might be overthinking this, but doesn't the way how Devil Forging fits into the overall lore of the series mean it's exactly the same? This is just my interpretation and I may have a couple of wrong assumptions, but I got the feeling from one of IGA's interviews (can be found in the sources database) that the nature and creation of Innocent Devils is exactly the same as "normal" demon/devil-type enemies that you fight in the games. The difference being that the former are "innocent". Which got me thinking, assuming Devil Forging one of the methods Dracula uses to increase his army, does that mean that, say a Succubus, is a sculpture infused with a soul? I suppose the difference with a golem would be that this Succubus would have a recognizable human-shape. What I'm trying to say is does that mean devils/demons in the CV universe are not from another place like hell or something, but instead man-made creatures? It would add some sort of theme to the games that all evil originates from humanity somehow in one way or another.
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: theplottwist on January 04, 2016, 01:07:32 PM
It might be overthinking this, but doesn't the way how Devil Forging fits into the overall lore of the series mean it's exactly the same? This is just my interpretation and I may have a couple of wrong assumptions, but I got the feeling from one of IGA's interviews (can be found in the sources database) that the nature and creation of Innocent Devils is exactly the same as "normal" demon/devil-type enemies that you fight in the games. The difference being that the former are "innocent". Which got me thinking, assuming Devil Forging one of the methods Dracula uses to increase his army, does that mean that, say a Succubus, is a sculpture infused with a soul? I suppose the difference with a golem would be that this Succubus would have a recognizable human-shape. What I'm trying to say is does that mean devils/demons in the CV universe are not from another place like hell or something, but instead man-made creatures?
I hypothesised this ages ago (and it even got posted on TV Tropes):
My hypothesis also explains why creatures of cosmic level/gods that could potentially overpower Dracula with relative ease are his underlings or aren't as powerful as their home-lore demands.
BUT nowadays I think there are real demons along with man-made demons. There is evidence supporting the existence of a "world" populated by demons that get summoned to Earth through the Demon Castle.
Quote
It would add some sort of theme to the games that all evil originates from humanity somehow in one way or another.
In fact, even without this hypothesis, this is precisely where the demons come from.
Chaos is a product of humans, as explained on "Ricordanza". In the same novel, Death is revealed to have been born out of Chaos, along with other demons.
So yeah, it appears that the demons are born from chaos, which is born from mankind.
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 04, 2016, 01:22:19 PM
@Nagumo I had thought about something similar years ago but I'm trying to establish if you're asking whether all the enemies are made like ID's? For every single enemy of Dracula's army? The answer is no imo. It is established some beings are demonic, some angelic (and even then Dracula has dominion) and some human (such as the Zombie soldier in AoS.) Not only this but some of the ID's such as faeries, and the evolution of some of the others are not fought in other games. If anything ID's seem to be more Akin to Alucard's familiars, most prominently the Faerie, Devil.
How about the enemies made of stone or natural organic material ? Stone (and wood golems), gargoyles, and in a couple of instances such as LOI Medusa starts off as a Stone Statue that comes to life. Maybe I'm reading too far into this, probably am. After all Medusa turns to stone at will, Gargoyles cloak themselves as statues, but ID's originate from stone but evolve into other creatures. (none of which I can remember actually turn to stone, but it's been years since I've played COD.)
Title: Re: Was "Devil Forging" Meant to be Some Sort of Necromancy?
Post by: Nagumo on January 04, 2016, 06:42:58 PM
That's really neat, plottwist. I agree with the theory to the extent that some, but not all, Dracula's monsters are creations of Devil Forgery, like zangetsu said. Which ones are and which ones are not is probably something left up to interpretation for the sake of mystery.