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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 14, 2016, 07:42:04 AM

Title: The Hunter Whip
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 14, 2016, 07:42:04 AM
Only seen in one noncanon (to the main timeline, at least) entry, Circle of the Moon, the Hunter Whip is the chosen weapon of Morris Baldwin (at first) before he passed it along to Nathan Graves some time before the events of the game. While it begins as a simple leather whip, over time and the collection of DSS cards, it becomes the single most versatile and powerful weapon in Castlevania, able to take on dozens of forms, from wreathing itself in cosmic elements like flames, ice, or the void itself, changing into swords, axes, and spears (even an absurdly powerful handgun!), becoming full bodied summoned creatures that appear briefly yet powerfully, and even changing Nathan himself into a skeleton or a... teddy bear... thing!

The power of the Hunter Whip is almost as varied as the user's imagination, and if we understand the DSS cards to simply be a gameplay metaphor for Nathan's growing mastery of the whip (especially as they are not once mentioned in dialog), imagination and focus may in fact be the only limit this weapon rightfully has. Whatever similarities the the Vampire Killer of legend the Hunter Whip may initially possess, it is clearly in a class all of its own by the time it is fully mastered, having surpassed the Vampire Killer's potential for sheer destruction long before.

I have some thoughts as to what the whip is, and indeed its origin.

While there is nothing spoken in game about the specific nature of the Hunter Whip, its basic traits seem to align well with the Whip of Alchemy wielded by Leon Belmont in 1094, especially as that whip was able to change its elemental nature as well with some swappable applied phlebotinum before becoming the Vampire Killer. In addition (and I fully admit this is reaching at straws) Trevor Belmont's gameplay mode in Curse of Darkness (combined with gameplay elements from Juste Belmont in Harmony of Dissonance) imply that it is still capable of doing this depending on specialized tips added to the weapon. If anything, the greatest difference is that the Hunter Whip changes to greater degrees and does so without any add-on parts.

This leads me to believe that the Hunter Whip was created as a perfection of Rinaldo Gandolfi's original research, perhaps by him directly, or simply a gifted Alchemist picking up after him. It's clearly everything Gandolfi could have wished his own weapon to be originally. This does assume heavily that Lament of Innocence (or a version of those events at any rate) occurred within Circle of the Moon's timeline as well, but in my mind it seems to fit: that the Hunter Whip is an offshoot/refinement/perfection of the research that created the original Whip of Alchemy, a sort of cousin to the Vampire Killer that while exceedingly difficult to master can be wielded by anyone (or almost anyone) without the need for a Lecardeian Unlocking Ritual. The sheer potential of the weapon remains mind-boggling, and Dracula and his ilk might be better off staying dead if someone with a firm mastery of the Hunter Whip is keeping watch.

It's a shame we didn't see more of it, but then again, the single vague appearance and description is what made this theory possible in the first place so... silver linings.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: X on January 14, 2016, 10:28:57 AM
The Hunter Whip is a unique weapon. But I never did think that the entire DSS library was the whip itself. Sure we see the elemental traits with the whip when using the DSS but I think that's as far as it goes. In terms of swords, spells, shields, and the gun, I believe that they stem from Nathan himself when using the cards. A physical manifestation of magic that the DSS system allows for. I also never considered the Hunter Whip to be separate from the Vampirekiller either. Granted this was before I learned the CotM was a CV Gaiden rather then a part of the main series. However in my headcanon the Hunter Whip and the Vampirekiller and one and the same. And That Nathan is the son of the Daughter of Richter and Annet Belmont. In short, CotM (for me anyways) is an alternate universe setting.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: The Puritan on January 14, 2016, 06:54:14 PM
I see it as a pretty successful attempt to recreate the Vampire Killer after the Belmonts disappeared.

Of course, I've never been clear about COTM's "gaiden" relation to the IGA canon.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 14, 2016, 07:22:46 PM
I've never been clear about COTM's "gaiden" relation to the IGA canon.

The "gaiden" relation is that is has no relation. COTM is its own thing entirely. For all we know, the Belmonts may not even exist in its world -- they're certainly never mentioned in the game.

I generally throw Legends, COTM, Order of Shadows, and the N64 Vanias all in as one entirely distinct timeline (which I dub the "Gaidenvania" timeline), with games like the original Castlevania occurring where they don't conflict to provide common points of reference. As per my opening post, I'm also willing to assume that Lament of Innocence (or some variation of it) also occurred to kickstart the whole thing. Maybe it happened differently; perhaps Mathias was not the one who became Dracula in this timeline, and someone even less prone to sympathy did instead. That would be a reasonable divergence from the main canon that would certainly alter everything going forward in big ways, resulting in the very different "Gaidenvania" timeline wherein the Belmonts seem to be rarer and not quite as legendary -- the main family may even be extinct by the early 1800's, which would explain why Reinhardt Schneider - a guy from a branch family like the Morris clan in the main timeline - is wielding the Vampire Killer instead, and no pure blooded Belmonts are implied in any of those games.

But alas, I am rambling.

I see it as a pretty successful attempt to recreate the Vampire Killer after the Belmonts disappeared.

This is also a workable theory if COTM's unseen backstory is closer to the Igavanias than we are informed by the game. COTM is very deliberately ambiguous about it's backstory. We know it's similar to the main timeline in general broad strokes, but the specific degrees of similarity are utterly unknown and I get the feeling that KCEK wanted it that way as it freed them up to work outside of the constraints of continuity (not that it mattered much).

I generally feel that the Hunter Whip was created more out of an idea that "The Vampire Killer is a mighty weapon, but it only really seems to be usable by people related by blood to a certain family, and even if anyone could use it, there's still only one in existence. That's a problem if a powerful Vampire rises and the wielder of the VK is on the other end of Europe dealing with some other problem. There should be more weapons of that caliber so that the people are defended no matter where evil rises up."

It's meant to be a similarly powerful backup arsenal, by my reckoning.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 14, 2016, 08:57:14 PM
COTM is the disconnected to the series in my eyes, along with Haunted Castle.
This is precisely why I place them in an alternate timeline where the two games may or may not be related to one another.

The only real connection back to any other Belmonts or whip-wielding vampire hunters is the whip itself. Having said this it's not the "Vampire Killer" and it is not necessary that Belmonts are connected to any of the COTM characters.

It's interesting that it's still listed in Iga's chronology with the other games in the "non-official timeline" https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3793/10685762635_4671c0dd84_o.jpg
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: TheTextGuy on January 15, 2016, 12:41:32 AM
I also always saw CoTM as a sort of alternate universe Castlevania.  To me, it shares the main villain being Dracula and the protagonist being a whip wielder, but it's disconnected from the other games in terms of timeline or story.  I would've liked to see a continuation or a prequel to CoTM.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 15, 2016, 12:08:14 PM
The thing about the noncanon games is that any narrative relation to the others is, at best, sketchy as all hell.

But once upon a time, that was pretty much true of the entire series before Iga tried setting up a definitive canon.

Like I said previously, I think there's enough in the collective noncanon entries that they could arguably make their own canon, essentially making three distinct timelines: the Igavanias, Gaidenvanias, and Lords of Shadow universe. Of course, the gaiden games could also just be their own things, disconnected from everything else, but it helps me to think of them as a sub-series of their own, and much of my fanfiction works them together (including one featuring a main character who was descended from Reinhardt Schneider, was named after Sonia Belmont, and meets Alucard who becomes something of a mentor to her. Before you ask, no I don't have it anymore).
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: coinilius on January 16, 2016, 02:08:25 AM
I have discussed Circle of the Moon before and although it is not part of the IGA timeline, I personally do prefer to think of it as a legitimate entry into the Castlevania timeline as far as my 'head canon' goes, taking place in that time period where the Belmont's were in hiding/unable to use the Vampire Killer. 

My take on the Hunter Whip, by extension, is that it is an attempt to create a new Whip of Alchemy, another weapon that could be used against Dracula and probably created during the events 10 years prior to CoTM where Nathan's parents were killed. 
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 16, 2016, 03:05:44 AM
I have discussed Circle of the Moon before and although it is not part of the IGA timeline, I personally do prefer to think of it as a legitimate entry into the Castlevania timeline as far as my 'head canon' goes, taking place in that time period where the Belmont's were in hiding/unable to use the Vampire Killer. 

My take on the Hunter Whip, by extension, is that it is an attempt to create a new Whip of Alchemy, another weapon that could be used against Dracula and probably created during the events 10 years prior to CoTM where Nathan's parents were killed.

I understand your positioning in the timeline, but why does the game take place in Austria at Carmilla's castle when the title is Castlevania/ Akumajo Dracula?
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 16, 2016, 09:34:59 AM
I understand your positioning in the timeline, but why does the game take place in Austria at Carmilla's castle when the title is Castlevania/ Akumajo Dracula?

Because Demon Castle Carmilla doesn't have the selling power. That's all.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 16, 2016, 03:59:05 PM
In the event that this game is part of your head canon then why would you not just assume the "hunter whip" is the unawakened VK?

If the Baldwin> Graves were around during the time the Belmonts weren't this makes sense without a convoluted explanation. POR is grounds enough to support this theory.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 16, 2016, 05:42:48 PM
In the event that this game is part of your head canon then why would you not just assume the "hunter whip" is the unawakened VK?

If the Baldwin> Graves were around during the time the Belmonts weren't this makes sense without a convoluted explanation. POR is grounds enough to support this theory.

Because the Hunter Whip goes completely beyond the capabilities of the Vampire Killer, as described by
Quote
able to take on dozens of forms, from wreathing itself in cosmic elements like flames, ice, or the void itself, changing into swords, axes, and spears (even an absurdly powerful handgun!), becoming full bodied summoned creatures that appear briefly yet powerfully, and even changing Nathan himself into a skeleton or a... teddy bear... thing!

All the things that any other Castlevania character can do, via collecting weapons or magic-in-the-blood, the Hunter Whip can potentially do by itself -- it's like a damn power bank containing the abilities of every Castlevania protaganist.

Hugh wants the weapon for himself, partially because the previous wielder was his father but mostly because it has tremendous power and potential that he feels he is best suited to wield. He's basically Sesshomaru from Inuyasha coveting his brother's Tessaiga (for exactly the same reasons). Now, the Vampire Killer has incredible power, but only against specific kinds of foes (those ruled by evil in their hearts). A guy like Hugh wouldn't covet such a weapon for its power because the power is that much less useful to them. And if it were a LOCKED Vampire Killer, it would just be a simple whip and therefore be ABSOLUTELY USELESS to Hugh. And Nathan.

Hence, I refer you back to this bit of my opening post:

Quote
its basic traits seem to align well with the Whip of Alchemy ... especially as that whip was able to change its elemental nature as well with some swappable applied phlebotinum before becoming the Vampire Killer. ... ...Trevor Belmont's gameplay mode in Curse of Darkness (combined with gameplay elements from Juste Belmont in Harmony of Dissonance) imply that it is still capable of doing this depending on specialized tips added to the weapon. If anything, the greatest difference is that the Hunter Whip changes to greater degrees and does so without any add-on parts.

This leads me to believe that the Hunter Whip was created as a perfection of Rinaldo Gandolfi's original research, perhaps by him directly, or simply a gifted Alchemist picking up after him. ... ...but in my mind it seems to fit: that the Hunter Whip is an offshoot/refinement/perfection of the research that created the original Whip of Alchemy, a sort of cousin to the Vampire Killer that while exceedingly difficult to master can be wielded by anyone (or almost anyone) without the need for a Lecardeian Unlocking Ritual.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: AlexCalvo on January 16, 2016, 06:33:54 PM
I don't see any reason whatsoever to think that the powers don't come from the DSS cards.  It just seems like head canon justification, which is fine if you can admit that's what it is.  It is the DSS cards, this is evident by the fact that only the mars, diana, and mercury cards even effect the whip at all, while the other combinations effect Nathan directly, or produce summons.  The DSS cards are the power house, not the hunter whip.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: theplottwist on January 16, 2016, 07:09:19 PM
I don't see any reason whatsoever to think that the powers don't come from the DSS cards.  It just seems like head canon justification, which is fine if you can admit that's what it is.  It is the DSS cards, this is evident by the fact that only the mars, diana, and mercury cards even effect the whip at all, while the other combinations effect Nathan directly, or produce summons.  The DSS cards are the power house, not the hunter whip.

Ditto. But...

I view the DSS cards as just a gameplay element-- they represent the powers that a given wielder has available to them acquired through mastery of the weapon. There's nothing to suggest that they actually exist as physical objects in-game (nothing in the way of dialog, for instance).

And no one can deny that once the full power of the Hunter Whip is unlocked, it can pretty much destroy EVERYTHING with very little effort.

...which FOR ME holds no water, to be honest. If the DSS cards were not a real thing, then the system would not exist in the first place. They'd just make it the "Hunter Whip System" where the Hunter Whip goes about unlocking abilities as you level up.

Quote
Now, the Vampire Killer has incredible power, but only against specific kinds of foes (those ruled by evil in their hearts)

This also doesn't add up. Alucard was defeated by Trevor Belmont using the Vampire Killer - and Alucard isn't evil. Same with Hector - took a beating from Trevor with the whip even though he wasn't evil.

The VK's power is highly effective against everything related to the darkness - evil or not - and I'd say it's be pretty darn useful power for any hunter to have. But of course, we have that pesky Belmont-only restriction put on it.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 16, 2016, 07:37:24 PM
I have to agree with Alex on this.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: coinilius on January 16, 2016, 08:05:58 PM
In the event that this game is part of your head canon then why would you not just assume the "hunter whip" is the unawakened VK?

If the Baldwin> Graves were around during the time the Belmonts weren't this makes sense without a convoluted explanation. POR is grounds enough to support this theory.

Why would I assume that it is?  The Vampire Killer is off with the disappeared Belmont's or in the possession of the Morris clan and because in my head canon there is an awesome game that takes place before CotM set in 1820 which tells the story of Nathan's parents and Morris Baldwin's battle with an early resurrected Dracula where they create the Hunter Whip as a replacement weapon for the VK, an alternative method of fighting Dracula (like how they were looking for alternative methods of fighting Dracula in OoE).
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 16, 2016, 09:29:21 PM
I've read through plottwist's reply and I also agree with his stance.
The most similar examples in other games are in LOI Leon can pair subweapons with orbs to create powerful (magical) attacks which have nothing to do with the VK. The orbs aren't useable because Leon has the VK, they're a separate thing altogether. Same goes for the spell books in HoD which are paired with subweapons. The only things Juste can do is alter the tip of the VK.

The DSS cards are dropped by Dracula's minions, maybe perhaps they harbour their own powers which manifest in the form of cards.

If these cards were specific to the whip then there'd be a slot system like materia in FFVII or something of the like which resembles this in the menu.

DSS cards also seem to resemble tarot cards which reference Astrology, notice the DSS Action cards range from planets Mercury>Pluto inclusive which is indeed reflective of the solar system. I'm not inclined to believe these are attached to the whip, because nothing in the game or the manual suggests this.

Why would I assume that it is?  The Vampire Killer is off with the disappeared Belmont's or in the possession of the Morris clan and because in my head canon there is an awesome game that takes place before CotM set in 1820 which tells the story of Nathan's parents and Morris Baldwin's battle with an early resurrected Dracula where they create the Hunter Whip as a replacement weapon for the VK, an alternative method of fighting Dracula (like how they were looking for alternative methods of fighting Dracula in OoE).

Why would you assume it isn't when every previous game has featured the same whip pertaining to a Vampire hunter actually killing Dracula? There are only a few constants in the Castlevania games (not LOS) some of the main ones which are Dracula, Belmonts and the VK itself.

Eric Lecarde states in POR that Dracula is thought to resurrect in the year 1999, the Belmonts are not supposed to touch the VK until that time.

Someone's headcanon can be whatever it is, but Ecclesia is weak reasoning. Barlowe has the vessel to Dracula's soul and admits to Shanoa that his true purpose was to resurrect Dracula using Shanoa as a sacrifice(via Dominus) to destroy the vessel i.e. the order was a front for his resurrection, not his destruction. This was clearly explained in the game. Granted the prologue mentions organisations rising to stave off the resurrection of Dracula, but it doesn't go into detail and the prologue is later debunked by the ingame story in the context of Ecclesia.

If it is included in someone's canon that there just so happens there was another whip that could be used to defeat Dracula, I find this to be a stretch. Leon couldn't even defeat Walter with the Whip of Alchemy as powered up as it was until
(click to show/hide)
. Assuming we say COTM is a canon entry (which I personally don't believe) nobody is going to convince anyone that a simple "Whip of Alchemy" can defeat Dracula when it couldn't scratch Walter, because Walter's soul/ power is only 1 known portion of Dracula's power.
If Walter's power was enough to best Leon (with the VK) then Leon would have died fighting Walter. If Mathias' power with Walter's soul absorbed was enough to kill Leon (with the VK), he would have killed him there and then. Walter could have destroyed WOA Leon but not VK Leon.

In addition, no "Belmont" or descendant in the canon timeline has defeated Dracula without using the VK aside from Quincy Morris who "kept him at bay" as per Iga's timeline, meaning
(click to show/hide)
and hence wouldn't have required it. And if you observe the story in COTM, Morris is passing down the whip to the next heir is operating the exact way that the Belmont clan operate, and the Morris clan (who are descendants of the Belmonts)

That's my issue with what is being proposed, there are contradictions and much simpler explanations like the VK/ HW going from:
Richter> Morris > Nathan> Reinhardt> Quincy> John> Jonathan> Julius
Rather than saying a brand new clan/ order of hunters was created etc based off information which is not well substantiated.
Occam's razor is getting thrown out the window along with the kitchen sink.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 16, 2016, 10:12:47 PM

That's my issue with what is being proposed, there are contradictions and much simpler explanations like the VK/ HW going from:
Richter> Morris > Nathan> Reinhardt> Quincy> John> Jonathan> Julius


What I'm arguing is a Gaidenverse timeline closer to

[Vampire Killer is somehow created]
   |
   |
   V
Sonia
   |
   |
   V
Sonia's son
   |
   |
   V
[Unknown]
   |
   |
   V
Simon
   |
   |
   V
[Dracula's curse kills Simon]  --------------------------> [Hunter Whip is created]
   |                                                                                            |
   |                                                                                            |
   V                                                                                           V
Schneider family                                                                     Morris
   |                                                                                            |
   |                                                                                            |
   V                                                                                           V
Reinhardt                                                                              Nathan
   |                                                                                           
   |                                                                                           
   V                                                                                           
[unknown successor]                                                             

I simply assume that the COTM Timeline has certain similarities to, but is not a 1:1 copy of, the existing Castlevania canon. Sonia's presence alone would guarantee it.

If the Hunter Whip was really meant to be the Vampire Killer, I'm fairly certain it would be called that, but the Belmonts and the Vampire Killer don't get so much as a mention in the game. That was my first clue that they are not the same thing. Even if it were in its sealed state, the Vampire Killer's identity is a not-insignificant detail that I find it impossible to think Morris, Hugh, or Nathan could conceivably be blind to, especially all three of them at once. You'd also think Dracula or Carmilla would have noticed and made some sort of reference to Nathan being a "pretender to a greater legacy" or somesuch.

There's NOTHING in game other than the style of weapon to suggest it's the Vampire Killer and, as I have pointed out, plenty of evidence (even if much of it is circumstantial) that it is something separate, but similar.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: coinilius on January 16, 2016, 10:22:40 PM
There is a case that can be made for Dracula not being at full strength in Circle of the Moon (and yes I am aware that it can be picked apart) - he was sealed at the start of the game by the previous events of 1820, he says that he isn't at full power and needs the rite which was initiated by Camilla using the combination of the full moon and Morris Baldwin, he says at the end 'I need my full power' before teleporting away into wherever the final battle takes place (after you have disrupted the ritual)... so for purposes of my head canon there is enough wiggle room for me for the whip defeating a not-at-full-power Dracula.

Head canon is head canon, not real canon, after all.

This is just how I like to view the game in relation to the series in the comfort of my own play through, not trying to convince anyone else to change their minds.  The reason I suggest that for myself is because it has interesting story potential, and to me feels like something that ties kind of nicely into the prologue of Order of Ecclesia, and it doesn't get in the way of any details of the order of secession of the Vampire Killer whip if they are ever released, by side-stepping the issue.  It's a different whip, it got lost to history afterwards.  But hey, if it was revealed that CotM was part of the timeline and the Hunter Whip was the Vampire Killer, that would be cool, I wouldn't have a problem with that direction if Konami wanted to go there (I doubt they will be doing any revisiting of CotM anytime soon, however, as much as I would enjoy it).  This is just my fun head canon, which I have been open about the whole time.

It's only by thinking about Circle of the Moon in relation to the canon games that any of this is an issue anyway - taken strictly as a side story and not part of the main timeline, there is nothing to suggest in game that any of the regular Belmont or Vampire Killer mythology exists in the universe of CotM.  Officially, I would say that CotM and the Hunter Whip are just like your original comment on the matter, Zangetsu.  As a side story it is just it's own entry into the series, and a very enjoyable one at that, IMO.

About Ecclesia though:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 16, 2016, 10:34:33 PM
I would like to point out that debates like this were probably had by Iga's staff prior to his axing of Legends, the 2 CV64 games, and COTM from canon when Iga realized that placing these games made no logical sense in relation to the others.

If you try to argue Circle in the context of the main canon, you're going to come up short every time because it just doesn't fit right.

Hence my arguing for the Gaidenverse timeline involving the axed games with only the original Castlevania being shared between the two for certain. In that context, Circle makes perfect sense, especially if we run with the idea that Simon didn't manage to cure the Curse in time as the reason the Belmonts aren't running around in COTM, CV64 and Legacy, and how the whip came to be in the possession of the Schneiders to begin with; there simply were no direct heirs to the Belmont lineage to take up the job anymore.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 17, 2016, 12:21:48 AM
@Coinilius I understand your reasoning. The only thing I will say - and this is a bit of a side note to OOE - is that we the gamer know very little regarding Ecclesia. So far as we know the only members are Barlowe, Albus and Shanoa. Presumably there were other members before, maybe some who assisted Barlowe and seaking Occult knowledge about Dracula, or obtaining and transporting/ creating such a vessel into their headquarters. However, one can only assume because little information is given, so we don't have much to go off. (The vessel seems to be something pre-existing imo which I personally believe is the Crimson Stone.)

I do agree that in context of COTM there is no suggestion to the main timeline being referenced. All I'm saying is that trying to fit it in without the whips being the same imho would create issues.

@SterlingArcher I'm not in total disagreement, although I consider HC and COTM the most loosely placed of CV titles, COTM could still theoretically fit into my Sonia Belmont timeline (the alternate timeline to Iga's) where The Whip is passed from:
Sonia>Simon>Desmond>Reinhardt>Richter (from XX/ Vampire's Kiss)
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: coinilius on January 17, 2016, 12:37:51 AM
Hey Zangetsu, just some quick thoughts - Desmond pretty much has to be before Simon, as Order of Shadows is said to be set in the late 1600's  - Castlevania is set in 1691 and Simon's Quest in 1698.  For Desmond to be active in the late 1600's and after Simon then Order of Shadows would have to take place in 1699.  Unless you're assuming it doesn't take place in the late 1600's?  The date was only given in a creator interview I believe, never actually in game.

About Ecclesia - i still don't see how Ecclesia being
(click to show/hide)
means that there wasn't other organisations (separate to Ecclesia and what they were doing) as well that tried and failed to find counter measures against Dracula?  That part of the intro seems to me like it is unaffected by any revelations in the game.  Totally agree that not much information is given on the background, organisation structure etc on Ecclesia.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 17, 2016, 12:59:59 AM
Hey Zangetsu, just some quick thoughts - Desmond pretty much has to be before Simon, as Order of Shadows is said to be set in the late 1600's  - Castlevania is set in 1691 and Simon's Quest in 1698.  For Desmond to be active in the late 1600's and after Simon then Order of Shadows would have to take place in 1699.  Unless you're assuming it doesn't take place in the late 1600's?  The date was only given in a creator interview I believe, never actually in game.

About Ecclesia - i still don't see how Ecclesia being
(click to show/hide)
means that there wasn't other organisations (separate to Ecclesia and what they were doing) as well that tried and failed to find counter measures against Dracula?  That part of the intro seems to me like it is unaffected by any revelations in the game.  Totally agree that not much information is given on the background, organisation structure etc on Ecclesia.

Just a note that my post came up chopped up for some reason, I had to re-edit in case it didn't make sense. This is really weird as I always skim over to make certain it's at least legible. Anyway back to the topic..

While Castlevania does take place in 1691 (the canon version of events being Castlevania Chronicles) I'm placing OOS in a separate timeline as per Iga's intention for a few reasons:
1) It's Iga's intention that it was a side story
2) I consider SCIV another instance of Simon facing Dracula in the alternate timeline as it's not included on the Iga timeline.
    There is no specific year given for when SCIV takes place, therefore I place it sometime after Legends, and this would be well before the year
    of 1691, probably the next resurrection after Sonia defeats him. The prologue to SCIV sounds as if Dracula has been defeated before.)
3) In OOS only form 1 Dracula is fought and the Castle doesn't crumble. The alternate timeline with 64/LOD have a theme where Old man Dracula is the the Guardian of Dracula's sleeping spirit. In the non canon endings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b89hgAM7zAc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b89hgAM7zAc) for example) where Dracula's soul Guardian/ Old man Drac is defeated, the castle does not crumble which correlates with OOS' ending of why the Castle doesn't crumble and why Desmond only faces form 1 Drac / Old Man Drac, who is in fact the Guardian of Dracula's sleeping spirit.
4) Desmond looks like Reinhardt so 3 makes sense to me.

About Eccelsia, no it doesn't mention there aren't other organisations, it just gives the player very little to note about other organisations. It does say other clans existed, granted but it focuses on Ecclesia whose actual focus is Dracula's revival. Therefore, trying to guess what the other clans were actually up to when the Belmonts were missing is too wishy washy imo. We can assume there were other clans at some point, but whether they were motivated by good or evil intentions is 50/50.  I'm not saying it lessens your premise for a headcanon, it's just very much vague to me so I wouldn't be basing mine off of it.
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: coinilius on January 17, 2016, 01:20:40 AM
Ah now I can see the reasoning with Order of Shadows - interestingly enough, there is a
(click to show/hide)

On OoE - I think it's safe to assume that the other organisations are exactly how they were presented in the opening - other organisations that tried and failed to create countermeasures against Dracula.  Otherwise it is just over thinking things, IMO.  Sure, if they ever explore that plot point they could expand them out to be doing whatever they wanted, but as it stands, I see no reason not to take that at face value.  Organisations tried, they failed.  IMO, it isn't 'wishy washy' as to what they were up to - they were trying to find ways to stop Dracula, they just couldn't.

Head canons have been based on far flimsier pretenses so I am not very worried  ;)

Speaking of head canons, your reference to the vessel Dracula's remains being sealed in during OoE as being the Crimson Stone is a theory which we discussed once before, in another CotM (and OoE) based thread (where I was discussing how I thought that, after starting OoE, it actually helped make CotM feel MORE like it could be part of the main timeline, to me).
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 17, 2016, 01:39:24 AM
Ah now I can see the reasoning with Order of Shadows - interestingly enough, there is a
(click to show/hide)
Interesting, will have to look into that. Perhaps I can merge two Simons (HC and SCIV into 1 timeline)

Speaking of head canons, your reference to the vessel Dracula's remains being sealed in during OoE as being the Crimson Stone is a theory which we discussed once before, in another CotM (and OoE) based thread (where I was discussing how I thought that, after starting OoE, it actually helped make CotM feel MORE like it could be part of the main timeline, to me).

I'm not sure if I was involved or ever read it, any chance you'd have a link?
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: coinilius on January 17, 2016, 02:30:26 AM
Yep, you were definitely involved zangetsu!  Here is a link to the thread:

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,8270.0.html (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,8270.0.html)

Hopefully it refreshes your memory  :)
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 17, 2016, 05:48:52 AM
Yep, you were definitely involved zangetsu!  Here is a link to the thread:

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,8270.0.html (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,8270.0.html)

Hopefully it refreshes your memory  :)

I do recall, cheers for that :)
Title: Re: The Hunter Whip
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 20, 2016, 12:40:41 AM
Ah now I can see the reasoning with Order of Shadows - interestingly enough, there is a
(click to show/hide)

Potentially it does and the reasons are below, depending on what the statue means, and why it's there in the first place.

I heard Iga didn't want OOS inserted into the timeline, where as the the other creator did because he thought Iga was too strict with his "timeline guidelines".

For the following scenarios I am still assuming OOS takes place outside of the main timeline as per the established canon.

Scenario (A)
- The Statue is there to remove OOS from the main timeline (referencing HC Simon)
- HC's Simon was the son of Sonia, the Legends ending states that her child will rise to face Dracula.
- He defeated Dracula once prior to Desmond, and for some reason a statue of him was erected/ manifested in Medusa's lair when Castlevania appeared.
- This placement allows VK/ XX to fit at the end of the timeline as its prologue states "Hundreds of years after Simon Belmont defeated Dracula." (basically switching HC with SCIV)

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                   
                               Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64>VK
                                           /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 
                                           \
                                            \
                                             SCIV>>>>>/>>>>COTM


Scenario (Bi) - The Mindf*** Loop
- The Statue places OOS in the existing HC timeline
- Simon from HC went to face Dracula but lost when he was turned to stone by Medusa's gaze, along with the VK.
- If HC Simon wins instead of losing to Medusa, SCIV happens after HC and the same Simon defeats Dracula again i.e.   
  HC>SCIV>LOD>64>VK

- The "Hunter Whip" was then born as with a new clan descended from the Belmonts (partly by blood, but not by name)
- Desmond faces and defeats Dracula with the "Hunter Whip", not the VK.
- Dracula perishes but Castlevania does not fall.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                                                   
                              Legends>SCIV>LOD>64>VK
                                           /  l
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 
                                           \   l
                                            \ l                                                                                 
                                             HC>OOS>COTM 
                                             
                                                                   
Scenario (Bii)
- The Statue places OOS in the existing HC timeline
- Simon from HC went to face Dracula and won. 
- COTM is not necessarily connected to HC>OOS
- Dracula perishes but Castlevania does not fall (because there was supposed to be a sequel.)

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                   
                              Legends>SCIV>LOD>64>VK
                                           /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 
                                           \
                                            \
                                             HC>OOS>/>COTM

Scenario (Bii) - version 2
- Same as Bii except HC>OOS>LOD>64 is its own timeline
- Legends>SCIV>VK is its own timeline
- COTM is its own timeline

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                   
                                              COTM
                                              /
                              Legends>SCIV>VK
                                           /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 
                                           \
                                            \
                                             HC>OOS>LOD>64

Scenario (C)
- Merging of elements from A and B
- HC Simon is Sonia's son, defeats Dracula, a statue commemorating this manifests in Medusa's lair because: irony.
- Desmond only defeats The Guardian of Dracula's sleeping spirit c.1666, who remains dead until either c.1691 or 1752 (100 years prior to CV 64 when
(click to show/hide)
- In 1691/ 1752, Dracula's spirit actually awakens from it's slumber (with no Guardian protecting it)
- SCIV Simon (another Simon or Simon II) faces the real Dracula and defeats him.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                                               
                                                                               COTM
                                                                                /
                              Legends>HC>OOS>>>SCIV>LOD>64>VK
                                           /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 

Scenario D
- Merge elements of A-C and assume Desmond Richter from VK/ XX is using the "Hunter Whip"

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                                                                                           
                              Legends>HC>OOS>>>SCIV>COTM>LOD>64>VK
                                           /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS 


Scenario E
Nothing happens because the statue doesn't mean anything (except OOS not being canon) and my timeline remains because I'm a boss:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                                   
                                Legends>SCIV>OOS>LOD>64>VK
                                            /
LOI>CVIII>COD>TA/AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>>>AOS>DOS     
                                            \
                                             \
                                              HC>>>>>/>>>>COTM