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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Super Waffle on February 19, 2016, 02:14:48 AM

Title: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Super Waffle on February 19, 2016, 02:14:48 AM
I don't get it.  I'm having a blast dropkicking skeletons as Maria on my smartphone.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 19, 2016, 03:02:44 AM
I don't hate it.  I like it. :D
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Lelygax on February 19, 2016, 04:42:16 AM
Ditto, for a long time I even thought it was a totally enhanced version from PSX, only after I noticed that it lacks transparency and have more loading areas. I've even thought that I needed to do some trick to open the passage to Underground Garden or make the door to these prisons with ghosts appear on PSX.

People mainly complains about Afro Richter being a bad edit, Maria being too overpower and new enemies being drawn in a different style/bad drawn or being too cartoony/hilarious.

I don't have a problem with these things. Sure, if they had drawn Richter like it appears on Maria's imagination baloon it would be much better.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Aceearly1993 on February 19, 2016, 06:11:06 AM
For the saturn version, I think the real problem is the loading time between areas. And the game even loads a lot of time to open the map!

I don't think the new areas are actually the exact things lost from PS1 versions, they probably just did their own imaginations specifically for these completely new areas. For what was the thing that being cut for PS1 version, nobody actually knows except the staff members at that time who can & wish to say.

Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: X on February 19, 2016, 07:03:38 AM
I've not played NitM but what I don't like about it are the lack of transparencies (SEGA has had that issue for several of its systems and there's no excuse for it post Genesis), the horrendously stretched graphics (DXC did this as well but to a much better degree that was almost not noticeable), and the awfully long loading times. I can let the argument about the enemies slide as SotN has its own share of such things. I think it would be fun to play as Maria in NitM just so I could at least finish the game using her. Since, as it currently stands, she is way too under-powered in DXC.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: KaZudra on February 19, 2016, 03:47:30 PM
I've not played NitM but what I don't like about it are the lack of transparencies (SEGA has had that issue for several of its systems and there's no excuse for it post Genesis), the horrendously stretched graphics (DXC did this as well but to a much better degree that was almost not noticeable), and the awfully long loading times. I can let the argument about the enemies slide as SotN has its own share of such things. I think it would be fun to play as Maria in NitM just so I could at least finish the game using her. Since, as it currently stands, she is way too under-powered in DXC.

to interject the transparencies, they actually work with CRT televisions, performance is more konami's fault as some of the most faithful arcade ports were on the saturn
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Dracula9 on February 19, 2016, 04:41:22 PM
Ugly stretched graphics are my main issue with it.

That and the Cursed Prison, while a nice concept, I feel could have been fleshed out more, and made into something that actually fits that breathtakingly gorgeous music that accompanies the area.

But hell, Skeleton Leader. That's enough reason to like it.

DYNAMITE-CHUCKING NINJA SKELETON KNIGHT DUDES, WHAT MORE COULD YOU WANT?!
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: zangetsu468 on February 20, 2016, 12:41:16 AM
I never had an issue with the graphics in general. The main graphical issue is transparency.
The main gameplay issue is the map, and some slowdown.

Shoot me but I like Richter's new sprite, it reflects his artwork moreso than the original.

Some of the enemy animations look better imo (although more look worse) and you get extras and better quality of music.

I shall call him "SOTurN".

#soturn #ssotn
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: DoctaMario on March 05, 2016, 05:25:14 AM
It's a good game but it definitely doesn't look as nice as the psx version in a lot of ways.

The new areas are interesting and the game feels more "complete" I guess, and I thought it would have been nice for them to add in the extra areas and weapons in the PSP version. Still, graphically it's an inferior game and I suspect that it's because Konami wasn't able to port it well.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 05, 2016, 08:55:18 AM
I'm only just playing it for the first time and so far the new areas take away from the fun. They just aren't fleshed out or designed very well.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: PFG9000 on March 05, 2016, 09:37:42 AM
It makes me sad that people are playing this on smartphones, and I've never even been able to get it to work on my PC.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 05, 2016, 03:04:05 PM
I went the ol' "shell-out-eighty-five-dollars-on-eBay" route. Collecting for the Saturn is a son of a biscuit.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: uzo on March 05, 2016, 04:15:30 PM
* The new enemies are not well designed.
* The new graphics are out of style, ugly, and poorly developed.
* The new areas add almost nothing.
* The new areas reuse mismatched background graphics from the rest of the game which looks ugly as hell.
* The new areas do not have any compelling level design.
* Maria has triple jump but you need to at least double jump everything since her single jump is SHORTER than both Richter and Alucard's.
* Maria is so sluggish, it makes most of her melee attacks useless or dangerous to use. Some of her melee moves were painfully slow as it is.
* Richter's alternate costume was heavily unfinished.
* Many effects lack their transparency, blending, and overall flair from the PS1 version (not counting water even).
* Numerous loading zones were added within the areas that were not in the PS1 version. They were not masked with loading zone hallways, or special doors, breaking the flow of the game the PS1 version had.
* All graphics were stored in a stretched format for some ungodly reason. Made everything look a little wonky compared to the PS1 version.

While I like the general concept of this maria, her execution was very poor. Way too sluggish to be what she is here. Especially enforcing the double tap to run, like Richter mode, was a death sentence for me in many spots during combat.

I liked the idea of Richter getting a costume that fits his art. However it was wildly incomplete and looked really odd in some animations.

Overall it was just the inferior version. The new additions were half baked and poorly executed, drawn, and implemented. The content from the original PS1 game was uglier, stretched, toned down, chopped up, and presented in an inferior package. To me there is no contest as to which version is the best.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Super Waffle on March 06, 2016, 04:11:01 AM
It makes me sad that people are playing this on smartphones, and I've never even been able to get it to work on my PC.
It runs surprisingly well on a $30 LG Risio of all things.

Except for rooms with any kind of rendered 3D background. Oh god those rooms.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Crying Freeman on March 06, 2016, 01:58:34 PM
I don't get it.  I'm having a blast dropkicking skeletons as Maria on my smartphone.

It's my preferred version of the game, and my second favorite CV of the series. As others have said, the issues are the more-common slowdown(such as the wolves exploding at the entrance), the laid times, the worse graphics and resolution, they think the new areas are disappointing, Maria's a hard boss and it's overly expensive etc.

But the positives: you get the extra areas, you get the Maria fight(very challenging and the music that plays during it is one of the best pieces of CV music ever), you get to play as Maria (funny coincidence how ppl criticize DXX for not having Maria, but they ignore having Maria in this version as a positive), the new areas are actually pretty unique compared to the rest of the game, there's a lot of great new remixes of past songs and new tracks exclusive to this version(give them a listen on YouTube), and you get to choose your character from the beginning of the game. This isn't really a plus to the game itself and is subjective, but the Saturn controller is WAY better than the PS1 controller, especially for this game.

If it weren't for the high price and exclusivity in Japan, I think more people would be fond of this version. Sure he slowdown and Laos times would hold it back for ppl, but it's still be loved by more I beleive. Any Saturn owner should add it to their library if they have the money.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on March 06, 2016, 09:12:18 PM
I loved what they tried to do with the Saturn version, but I'll admit to the imperfections in the finished result.
I wished they'd ported the additions in a much more polished fashion to the DXC version.

Maybe we'll get a 20th anniversary version of Symphony of the Night next year that finally brings the best of both the DXC and Saturn versions to a single release.

Not likely, but we can hope.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: zangetsu468 on March 07, 2016, 05:25:23 AM
If it weren't for the high price and exclusivity in Japan, I think more people would be fond of this version. Sure the slowdown and load times would hold it back for ppl, but it's still be loved by more I beleive. Any Saturn owner should add it to their library if they have the money.

I'd like to add the following points:

1) An opinion can't be formed on price because cost is relative to economy and supply and demand. If you buy the unit when either the economy is good or when the supply = high and/ or demand = low, then you won't have this problem. People fucking LOVE RoB but never complain about the fact it costs a lot. People love other CV games yet don't complain they cost a lot. (look them up on Ebay) Get over it people, cost is not a flaw to the game.

2) An opinion can't be formed on Japan exclusivity because RoB is too and people fucking love that game.

3) An opinion can't be formed on the game having more content making it a lesser game. Sotn was unfinished when they released it, no matter how good the game was it did feel slightly incomplete from a design perspective. The new areas do not take away from what is already there, they're giving the player additional content for free plus 2 additional boss fights (the Maria fight being canon) and more music as well as additional items - one of which allows Alucard to run... How is this a bad thing exactly? (Rhetorical) Given that the new areas are also optional having them in the game does not detract from the original game itself should the player choose to ignore those areas. For anyone saying it makes accessing areas of the map too easy etc, that's grade A bs, I've played the game and the player is still restricted to certain areas when playing as Alucard. Additionally the added tracks are a critical part of the soundtrack imo. The new castle entrance for Maria/ Richter as well as the cursed prison add a lot to an already stellar OST.

It can be slammed for lack of polish compared to its predecessor, the map being hard to access, the graphical issues, specifically 3d and transparency, the slowdown also lets the game down considerably.

Obviously by critics and reviews at the time it hasn't lived up to its predecessor in terms of polish, however, that's not necessarily the sentiment I feel among the hardcore fans, specifically not in the CVD.


Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Crying Freeman on March 07, 2016, 03:36:05 PM
I'd like to add the following points:

1) An opinion can't be formed on price because cost is relative to economy and supply and demand. If you buy the unit when either the economy is good or when the supply = high and/ or demand = low, then you won't have this problem. People fucking LOVE RoB but never complain about the fact it costs a lot. People love other CV games yet don't complain they cost a lot. (look them up on Ebay) Get over it people, cost is not a flaw to the game.

2) An opinion can't be formed on Japan exclusivity because RoB is too and people fucking love that game.

3) An opinion can't be formed on the game having more content making it a lesser game. Sotn was unfinished when they released it, no matter how good the game was it did feel slightly incomplete from a design perspective. The new areas do not take away from what is already there, they're giving the player additional content for free plus 2 additional boss fights (the Maria fight being canon) and more music as well as additional items - one of which allows Alucard to run... How is this a bad thing exactly? (Rhetorical) Given that the new areas are also optional having them in the game does not detract from the original game itself should the player choose to ignore those areas. For anyone saying it makes accessing areas of the map too easy etc, that's grade A bs, I've played the game and the player is still restricted to certain areas when playing as Alucard. Additionally the added tracks are a critical part of the soundtrack imo. The new castle entrance for Maria/ Richter as well as the cursed prison add a lot to an already stellar OST.

It can be slammed for lack of polish compared to its predecessor, the map being hard to access, the graphical issues, specifically 3d and transparency, the slowdown also lets the game down considerably.

Obviously by critics and reviews at the time it hasn't lived up to its predecessor in terms of polish, however, that's not necessarily the sentiment I feel among the hardcore fans, specifically not in the CVD.

1.) On the price point, I meant that people might say "I can pay $30 or so for the PS1 version that runs and looks better, or over $100 for this one that runs worse and has load times galore". There are a lot of people nowadays that complain about game prices, saying a game like the Order should've been $15 or so because it was 5 hours long. I'm not saying I agree with that at all (I actually scratch my head when people go crazy about prices of games like the Order because it still has AAA production values).

2.) True, my bad. I was aiming more at maybe if it was released in the US or PAL territories back in the day, but looking at that again, the Saturn wasn't popular outside of Japan anyway. The way I said it technically did mean "It's Japanese only, so that makes it worse", and I don't think that way at all. Tons of people love importing their games and playing games despite being in Japanese only.

3.) My bad  :'( In my head I was thinking more like "Oh, this isn't ported that well, it has slow down and worse graphixez?? This fuckin verziun ain't gud cuz of dose thingz!!", not that more content made it worse. If I actually thought more content equalled worse, I'd need some help lol. I remember HVGN made a SOTN vid where he criticized the Saturn version for it's shortcomings and quickly brushed over the extras as just a few extras. Note to self: Proof read before saying anything online or through text lol

On a side note, some of the lesser known features are things I love: The running with Alucard, the new items and the three hands (makes sense  ;D), which makes using items WAY better; keep two weapons equipped, but here's a third one for using your items. Beats pausing to select your item, then have one weapon out if you need to keep the item. Honestly, I don't think I could go back to the PS version easily.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: zangetsu468 on March 07, 2016, 07:49:05 PM
@CF Just wanted to point out I wasn't trying to prove you wrong :)
I also agree that 3 hands = a much easier system.

Also the map being accessed via the menu was only a result of the Saturn not having a select button. Highly customizeable controls could have avoided this not bring at the touch of a button.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Crying Freeman on March 07, 2016, 08:10:57 PM
@CF Just wanted to point out I wasn't trying to prove you wrong :)
I also agree that 3 hands = a much easier system.

Also the map being accessed via the menu was only a result of the Saturn not having a select button. Highly customizeable controls could have avoided this not bring at the touch of a button.

No problems, man! I have to admit the map through pausing does piss me off a bit, but hey, they had little choice on that gamepad
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: FeRcHuLeS on March 12, 2016, 12:45:23 AM
How come, I like it a lot playing with Maria and another Richter's costume and fast Alucard there is no reason to hate it, ahhh I've just figure out why people hated because they couldnt play it since they dont have one you know the Sega Saturn.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on March 12, 2016, 12:47:37 AM
Fast Alucard

I'd almost totally forgotten that. That's like the reason to prefer the Saturn version right there.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: FeRcHuLeS on March 12, 2016, 01:22:34 AM
The fast boots I mean, among any other items or stages too were great, I mentioned fast Alucard because I hated pressing backdash repeatedly to speedrun the game.
Title: Re: What's with all the hate for Saturn SotN?
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on March 14, 2016, 07:37:14 AM
I just came back from my trip to Akihabara and price wise: ROB>Ssotn. But still both games are bloody expensive.