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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Lumi Kløvstad on March 06, 2016, 08:57:28 PM

Title: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on March 06, 2016, 08:57:28 PM
I was pouring over my Gaidenverse timeline, and I noticed something.

The Bloody Scholar's ORIGINAL Gaidenverse Alternate Timeline (in out-of-date Beige!)

  [Vampire Killer is somehow created]
                         |
                         V
                 Sonia Belmont
                         |
                         V
               [Sonia's son]
                         |
                         V
[Unknown : Possibly Christopher?]
                         |
                         V
                Simon Belmont
                         |
                         V
[Curse kills Simon/Alucard kills Richter] -------> [Hunter Whip is created]
                         |                                                                 |
                         X                                                                V
               [No Direct Heir]-------->Schneider family        Morris Baldwin
                                                          |                                |
                                                          V                               V
                                             Reinhardt Schneider        Nathan Graves
                                                          |                                |
                                                          V                               V
                                            [unknown successor]   [Unknown Successor]
                                                             

So, we know Reinhardt Schneider's entry here is around 1852, while Johnny Morris' entry, Bloodlines, is set in 1917. Furthermore, we know that he was born prior to the events of Bram Stoker's Dracula, which takes place largely in 1898.

While the Schneiders are of uncertain lineage to the Belmonts, we know they are clearly related.

So, with that data, the beginnings of a reasonable link can start to be made.

What if Quincy Morris is related via the Schneiders, or a similar branch bloodline?

We know the Morrises are related to the Belmonts, and that the intersection of bloodlines happened at some point after Ralph's victory over Dracula (thanks to Plottwist setting me straight), but little else. So, I turned my thinker to determining how this relation occurred.

My thinking is that one of Quincy's ancestors had fallen in love with a woman from the Schneider family line (the Renards are another candidate since they also share Belmont ancestry, but I'm thinking the Schneiders are most likely since the Renards are never seen or said to use the whip, and the Schneiders are shown to use it at least once in the gaiden timeline). We don't know anything concrete about Quincy's family, but everything about Quincy himself gives me the impression he's an only child, or at least the only son. While I am uncertain of why the Schneiders or the Renards (whichever branch held the whip at that time) would give the whip to Johnny instead of Quincy, they did.

So, my revised timeline looks more like this:

The Bloody Scholar's REVISED Gaidenverse Alternate Timeline (color coded for your convenience!)
Yellow: Pure Belmont Bloodline
Orange: Schneider Bloodline
Teal: Morris Bloodline
Green: Non-Belmont Related

  [Vampire Killer is somehow created]
                         |
                         V
                 Sonia Belmont
                         |
                         V
               [Sonia's son]
                         |
                         V
[Unknown : Possibly Christopher?]
                         |
                         V
                Simon Belmont
                         |
                         V
[Curse kills Simon/Alucard kills Richter] -------> [Hunter Whip is created]
                         |                                                                 |                                                             
                         X                                                                V
               [No Direct Heir]---->Schneider family            Morris Baldwin
                                                          |                                |
                                                          V                               V
                                             Reinhardt Schneider        Nathan Graves
                                                          |                                 |
          [Unnamed Morris Ancestor] ---->|                                 |
                                                          V                                V
                                                Quincy Morris         [Unknown Successor]
                                                         |
                                                         V
                                               Johnny Morris     
                                                          |
                                                          V
                                              Jonathan Morris
                                                             


Now admittedly, this applies most strongly to my Gaidenverse timeline, but since it mirrors the main timeline in key locations, I think this might plausibly explain how the Morris family came to be of Belmont lineage, even in the main timeline, as there's plenty of insinuation that the Belmonts have several branch families that could have done this sexy deed with Quincy's ancestor thanks to Order of Ecclesia's little reveal about the citizens of Wygol.

Now, as to whether the affair between this Morris and little miss Schneider (or whoever) was true love or some tricky Bene Gesserit style seduction tactic meant to produce a viable heir to the whip, that I can't tell you.

Someone will just have to write a fanfic about it.

Super Waffle.
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: theplottwist on March 06, 2016, 09:17:13 PM
Thing is: The Morris are related to the Belmonts ever since Trevor Belmont. So that goes waaaaaay back in the family tree.
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on March 06, 2016, 09:36:07 PM
Quote from: theplottwist on March 06, 2016, 09:17:13 PM
Thing is: The Morris are related to the Belmonts ever since Trevor Belmont. So that goes waaaaaay back in the family tree.

That's news to me. Where is that even stated in canon?

If that's so, then that's a bloodied trainwreck of a family tree that's not even possible in that era.

"Morris" is a distinctly Brittanic surname going back to the medieval era, and there wouldn't be any intersection with a noble blooded French-Germanic clan like the Belmonts ("Belmont" deriving from the French "Bellamonte" [Fair Mountain]) -- even if said clan was, at the time, "defrocked" (thanks, Leon) -- until much later than the 1400's as "Morris" is a commoner's family name;  Ralph's actions would have at least elevated the family back to a Barony, which politics of the age would have absolutely allowed for, especially with the support of the Vatican (Ralph did after all kill Dracula for them). A noble family like the Belmonts wouldn't marry a son or daughter of a common family like the Morris clan until a more lenient era permitted it -- the 1800's being a PERFECT time, especially since  by that time Quincy is a man of money due to his family's ranching business. A marriage like that would have been a perfect reason for such a marriage in the Victorian age.

Basically, the only way the Morrises could have produced a Belmont relation prior to the 1700's at the EARLIEST is if one of them was a hard working prostitute girl and a Belmont got kind of careless when entertaining her services (or just made it look careless).

I'm very passionate about studying historical politics and family name etymology, which tends to be a major buzzkill for historic games that clearly disregard any pretense of reality while acting as if they play it perfectly straight. Soul Calibur is by far the biggest offender in that category, to the point where I have to actively ignore all character bios and plotlines and focus entirely on the action, because otherwise it pretty much physically hurts.

Castlevania isn't quite that bad, but it still veers close at several points, especially after Iga took over.

I try to play my history as straight as possible regardless of the fantastical elements of a setting, hence the hard work I put into this theory.
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: theplottwist on March 06, 2016, 09:59:14 PM
Quote from: The Bloody Rayne on March 06, 2016, 09:36:07 PM
That's news to me. Where is that even stated in canon?

Here:
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3N647Zi.jpg&hash=d9d326c676967e8105df45f82f1bac7b5eff1e9b)

In red: Trevor and Sypha.
In yellow: Quincy Morris

Quote
Explanation based on history for why the name is impossible

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fe.lvme.me%2Fb30gu81.jpg&hash=52a2965de3331a3199cb97ff34a46f6444eb86c2)

This is Castlevania. Dude could've been called "Harry Johnson" in 1300 BC for all the developers care.

Though the *name* Morris could've come much later, while the lineage comes from Trevor Belmont. This is a much simpler explanation.
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on March 06, 2016, 10:05:51 PM
Honestly, that doesn't say anything concrete, merely that Quincy is descended from a child of Ralph and Sypha, so it doesn't supercede anything I've suggested. 400-ish years is a HUGE period in which a lot can happen.

According to that family tree (if you read it as a definitive all-in-all authority) , Quincy has no ancestors-- he's a pure-blooded Belmont who simply took a different name, but Portrait of Ruin destroys that interpretation in dialog by pointing out that the Morrises are NOT direct relations.

All that chart confirms is that the blood relation exists, whereas my theory is meant to explain how that relation happened in the first place.
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on March 06, 2016, 10:14:46 PM
Also, if you're going to argue that the history is totally different (which almost every game confirms isn't the case -- they are clearly based in real events (Vlad the Impaler died in 1476 -- the same time Dracula's Curse takes place), then there's not even a point to arguing a timeline. By your wording of logic, this is now just as authoritatively a fairyland alternate universe in which America never happened, the Soviet Union was an Australian nudist colony, Peanut Butter tastes like Strawberry Jelly, and the sky is green.

In order for any of this to mean anything, it has to be based in reality in some way.
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: theplottwist on March 06, 2016, 10:19:08 PM
Erm, your chart says that Quincy is not related to the Belmonts at all, but a stranger who came into the family and probably married a woman Belmont. While the chart I posted says that Quincy was already related to the Belmonts.

Quote
but Portrait of Ruin destroys that interpretation in dialog by pointing out that the Morrises are NOT direct relations.

That is not correct. The script only says the the whip was not passed down the Morris line. Period. Also, the script for PoR does point out that the Morris are related to the Belmonts by blood:

(click to show/hide)

The Morris seems to be as much Belmonts as the main Belmonts, bloodline speaking. The link between them being Trevor. YET they have not inherited the whip as main Belmonts have, thus cannot wield the whip as the main Belmonts can.

Quote
By your wording of logic, this is now just as authoritatively a fairyland alternate universe in which America never happened, the Soviet Union was an Australian nudist colony, Peanut Butter tastes like Strawberry Jelly, and the sky is green.

Which is PRECISELY why avoid as much as I can using real-world events NOT mentioned in the canon as point of reference for anything. Because IGA himself has already said that the Castlevania universe is a parallel reality to ours.

The mere fact that Dracula wasn't Vlad III fighting the turks but actually trying to kill off mankind by his time with an army of monsters is already an enormous hole in history. There is also the fact that, in Castlevania dimension, the Crusades started in the wrong year, and Franz Ferdinand was killed by a vampire.

Though I like reading the ideas everyone posts here, I ultimatelly recognize that the Castlevania universe has stark differences from real-world history that could jeopardize the entire thing if contradicting information from the canon surfaces.
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: theplottwist on March 06, 2016, 10:28:11 PM
DO NOT let this put you down, though. I like your timeline, I'm just presenting something I think you should consider, because I had a hunch you did not know about the family tree I presented.

Also, double post. Sorry Jorge-samaaaaaaaaa
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on March 06, 2016, 10:35:15 PM
Quote from: theplottwist on March 06, 2016, 10:19:08 PM
Erm, your chart says that Quincy is not related to the Belmonts at all, but a stranger who came into the family and probably married a woman Belmont. While the chart I posted says that Quincy was already related to the Belmonts.

That is not correct. The script only says the the whip was not passed down the Morris line. Period. Also, the script for PoR does point out that the Morris are related to the Belmonts by blood:

(click to show/hide)

The Morris seems to be as much Belmonts as the main Belmonts, bloodline speaking. YET they have not inherited the whip as main Belmonts have, thus cannot wield the whip as the main Belmonts can.

I do admire your fervor and your more collegiate manner of debate. It's always fun to engage someone who has a similarly logical flow to their argument. I live for this sort of stuff.

However.

All branch families are related by blood. That's why they're called branch families. But I am a Foster, not a Jameson (another, much larger branch of my family), nor a Davis, a Livingston, nor a Gunn (the Scottish clan that is the root of my whole family tree, from which all the other names I presented descend). I'd never argue that I should be called a "Gunn" because that's simply not the part of the tree I'm found on. I'm related to the Gunns, and I take pride in that relation, but I'm not a "pure" Gunn even though WAY back on my family tree one of my ancestors was.

Similarly, a Morris is a Morris, not a Schneider, not a Renard, nor a Belmont. The Belmonts are the main root of the tree, but there's enough deviation to consider the Morrises distinct, just as we do for the Schneiders and the Renards. They're related, but several degrees removed from the main bloodline.

Now your chart does adjust my structured Belmont Family Tree a bit, but only by a single data point: that Quincy was NOT the first to intersect with the Belmont bloodline. That doesn't in any way suggest that he's a direct descendant of Ralph and Sypha, only that his common ancestry happened earlier than his conception. It might have been his father (of whom we quite literally know nothing) or his mother (likewise), or someone earlier. The reason the line on the chart you provided is straight down from Ralph is because there's no data on the intervening period. That's why some family trees have big ole straight lines. It's not an endorsement of direct descent, simply "we have no clearer data so here's what we do know".
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on March 06, 2016, 10:48:41 PM
You'll be delighted to see I input the data you presented into my findings.
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: theplottwist on March 06, 2016, 10:50:13 PM
Quote from: The Bloody Rayne on March 06, 2016, 10:35:15 PM
The reason the line on the chart you provided is straight down from Ralph is because there's no data on the intervening period. That's why some family trees have big ole straight lines. It's not an endorsement of direct descent, simply "we have no clearer data so here's what we do know".

And I disagree. In this same chart we have one more person related to the Belmonts, and this is Maria Renard:

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiydNxs7.png&hash=73833af53d9a39766191c1fb8614e20686f448c2)

Where is the "straight line" tracing her back? She's a Belmont relative after all, so why does it not connect? The line connects to Richter, but she obviously is not Richter's sister.

The line is not there because nobody knows where Maria's family's relation began. It's only known that Maria is related to the Belmonts somehow -- thus the line connecting her to Richter. THIS is the known relation, and she's probably a distant cousin.

If this were the case with the Morris, then we'd not have a line quite clearly tracing them back to Trevor. Quincy would look like Maria does in this same chart if his ancestry were unknown. Maria is a Belmont relative, and so is Quincy, but Quincy has a line tracing him back to Trevor, and Maria does not.

In the same chart, Yoko Belnades is related to the Belnades before Sypha, from an unknown coupling. So Maria could have been traced back to anywhere in this timeline, but she wasn't, because her lineage is truly unknown.

That's why I believe this chart is accurate with Quincy. It shows a clear connection from Trevor, while it shows nothing for Maria.
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on March 06, 2016, 10:56:12 PM
Quote from: theplottwist on March 06, 2016, 10:50:13 PM
And I disagree. In this same chart we have one more person related to the Belmonts, and this is Maria Renard:

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiydNxs7.png&hash=73833af53d9a39766191c1fb8614e20686f448c2)

Where is the "straight line" tracing her back? There is none. Because nobody knows where Maria's family's relation began. It's only known that Maria is related to the Belmonts.

From that, I infer that it's word for word how you stated it, that Maria is somehow connected, but the genealogist had no friggin' idea how, so he (or she) just attached her to the most relevant point, whereas they were fairly certain the Morrises derived earlier (possibly around Juste and Richter's Era) but had no clearer data than that. Discrepancies like this are quite common in the documented family trees of old families, even in real life, so I wouldn't read TOO hard into that, although it is definitely valuable data. Also, my Timeline is meant primarily to explain the passage of the whip, rather than direct bloodlines (although the two timelines are undoubtedly closely linked) so I think it'll stay in its current state for now.

A full genealogy would be incredibly difficult due to the frequent large gaps in our pool of data that the game materials present us.

One question I'd love answered is the exact nature of Juste's relation to Richter -- their lifespans almost certainly overlap given Juste's relative youth when he inherited the whip. Assuming he hadn't been murdered or faced a fatal accident, he'd probably be about Julius' age (if not a little older) by the time Rondo rolled around. This means he could be either Richter's father or grandfather, and I've seen arguments for both.

Furthermore, the details of the Schneider's relation to the Belmonts is equally unclear, though its doubtful they were of noble descent like the Belmonts; "schneider" , lit. "one who cuts" in German, translates colloquially as "tailor" -- (cutting fabric to craft a garment), and since surnames usually describe a professional or regional association, we can reliably assume the Schneiders are, or were for a significant length of time, tailors (maybe they were the ones responsible for Ralph's kick-ass wardrobe in Curse of Darkness? XD). This profession might have made them into nouveau riche similar to the Morrises cattle and ranch exploits, making them eligible candidates for marrying into a higher-status family like the Belmonts.

Be interesting to find out.

On a side note, since the origin of "Belmont" is most likely the French "Bellamonte" rather than a German root (Leon also being a predominantly French name), I think it's likely that Leon is a recent son of French gentry (He's specifically called "Baron" by Rinaldo and the game refers to him as a "Knight" in the introductory narration). My guess is the Belmonts were a originally a knightly family from the French Alps, given the evidence. It's highly probable that their Barony was restored by the Holy German Emperor or the Pope after Ralph killed Dracula to recognize the service to the Empire and Christianity, and they might have been appointed an even higher status to full blown nobility.

Dear god I love knowing things about genealogy and etymology.
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: Dracula9 on March 07, 2016, 04:49:09 AM
They're related because everyone in the clans likes to get kinky in the bedroom with whips and chains and leather and all manner of interesting outfits.
Title: Re: Guys, I think I figured out how the Morrises are related to the Belmonts
Post by: zangetsu468 on March 10, 2016, 12:13:54 PM
Quincy can still be a dire ct descendant of Trevor and have a different last name, it's simple really. The "True Successor" of the VK is always a male heir who not only inherits the VK but also carries on the Belmont name, right from Leon-Julius this was maintained and hence every Belmont has had at least one male offspring who inherited the VK.

Trevor Belmont had at least one son who carried on his legacy and at least one daughter whose descendant is Quincy. This explains how the Morrises are still Belmont descendants by blood but aren't the true successors of the VK and don't share their same name.