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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: The Bizarre Trooper on May 21, 2016, 08:57:39 PM

Title: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: The Bizarre Trooper on May 21, 2016, 08:57:39 PM
Let's be honest here, how great would it be if there was a Castlevania movie but the real question is: What would be the movie story?

My idea of a Castlevania idea would a re-telling of Lament of Innocence where you follow the story of Leon Belmont before and during Lament of Innocence and end's with Leon going to say Rinaldo Gandolfi his farewell and Rinaldo asks Leon what will he do now, Leon slowly turn his head to the camera and says: The Belmont clan will hunt the night! then fade to black to credit, and then, an after credit scene where we see someone at the front of the Castle and it's not Leon, it's Trevor Belmont!

Anyway, what would be your ideas for a Castlevania movie? I'm quite curious on your take for a Castlevania movie story-wise! =)
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Claimh Solais on May 21, 2016, 11:44:52 PM
Most definitely one based on Castlevania III. It has the most main characters to work with, without ham-fisting other characters or making new characters for.

But overall, I think I'd just prefer a brand new story for the movie.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: theplottwist on May 22, 2016, 12:09:14 AM
The Adventure and Belmont's Revenge could be neatly packed into a single movie, having Christopher defeat Dracula in the first act, Soleiyu disappear in the second and Dracula be defeated again in the third act. In this model, the story starts simple and introduces the idea of a Belmont fighting Dracula, then it introduces a conflict with Soleiyu's disappearance, and finally a plot-twist and a conclusion with Christopher fighting his son and then Dracula. It also introduces concepts as the reviving castle, and evil cultists working in the shadows to resurrect their master.

I would have no issues with new characters being created here because Christopher's story is simple and allows you to imagine. Keeping the basic framework of the games is a unbreakable rule, but they are much easier to introduce new characters to without violating this framework (such as Soleiyu's mother, the Bartley family suspected of reviving Dracula, etc etc). An entire subplot of the populace hunting the Bartleys while Chrisopher is out fighting Dracula could be made.

The post-credits scene could even be about Dracula reviving during Easter 100 years later, and have Simon come running to Dracula's castle's front gate, as a nice nod to the NES Castlevania intro and a guaranteed hook for a sequel.

Now, derailing the thread just a little, and a rant:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Briraka on May 22, 2016, 07:53:10 AM
Me and a buddy came up with an idea. Take the original Castlevania's story and turn it into a movie that's basically Die Hard, but with Dracula. Add in some old practical effects like something out of Clash of the Titans and you'd have what I'd call my ideal Castlevania movie.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 22, 2016, 08:06:52 AM
I think that the sort of visual, practical special effects that would best serve a Castlevania movie would be taking inspiration from Coppola's Dracula.  Those were ALL done in-camera, with layerings of passes on the film.  It was hauntingly beautiful, and insanely effective.  It's some of why the film has aged as well as it has done, as well as Interview with the Vampire - the computer sfx were used very carefully, there to compliment and enrich things, such as the backdrops and such as when Claudia transformed, with her hair turning from sgraggy mess to mop of perfect ringlets.

  I think that the biggets issue with doing a Castlevania film would be a) going for an origins type film, ssetting up the initial conflicts, whilst b) also having enough going on that it's not just a single guy running round a castle.  Why I think that CV III can be thougth of as a good one to go for, especially as you could have stuff cutting to say, seeing Alucard (in armour so not fully revealed) leading groups of Dracula's forces against villagers, and eventually have him become one of the heroes.  But at the same time, I agree it's most liekly better served as being a later installment.  I'd like to see Lament feature, but that has its own inherent issues, such as conflicting with the whole Mathias Cronqvist vs Vlad Tepes Dracula problem.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Belmontoya on May 22, 2016, 08:12:00 AM
I would love to see a Castlevania movie cover a part of the story that hasn't been represented in a game.

Here's an idea.

Quincey Morris could be a protagonist. Dracula could be played by Gary Oldman, Coppola could direct, and (if he wasn't dead) the amazing Wojcheich Kilar could compose the score! And it wouldn't hurt to have Anthony Hopkins involved...

Wouldn't that just be so wonderful and definitive that it would almost make another Castlevania movie unnecessary?
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Dracula9 on May 22, 2016, 08:15:44 AM
I'd like to see a prequel movie detailing Mathias meeting Lisa, conceiving Alucard, and her execution spiraling into him becoming Dracula long before I ever see a guy with a whip.

Yes, I know that's basically asking for a better version of Dracula: Untold, but it's what I want goddammit.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 22, 2016, 08:20:01 AM
I'd like to see a prequel movie detailing Mathias meeting Lisa, conceiving Alucard, and her execution spiraling into him becoming Dracula long before I ever see a guy with a whip.

Yes, I know that's basically asking for a better version of Dracula: Untold, but it's what I want goddammit.

That could work nicely.  Question is, how far would you consider taking it to in time?  Lisa's death being at the end?  Would you have an epilogue featuring a posisbly on his father's side Alucard (albeit with some reservations), and Isaac and Hector? 
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Dracula9 on May 22, 2016, 08:28:25 AM
First act would be Mathias exposition working on his "flipping off God by living forever" thing, second act is him meeting Lisa and their relationship developing (possibly a timeskip to cover the years of their time together), third act is her being executed and Mathias taking the name Dracula and going on the warpath starting with the village that killed her. End scene could be a short "rise to power" scene with an epilogue hinting at a lead into Dracula's Curse.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Belmontoya on May 22, 2016, 08:34:34 AM
I'd like to see a prequel movie detailing Mathias meeting Lisa, conceiving Alucard, and her execution spiraling into him becoming Dracula long before I ever see a guy with a whip.

Sounds like a good outline for a gothic porno film.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Dracula9 on May 22, 2016, 08:38:35 AM
I mean we can roll that way too if you want

Quote
Hey Vlad, hon, let's show that Edward and Bella how vampire-human sex really works!
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 22, 2016, 08:46:55 AM
Sounds like a good outline for a gothic porno film.

Hmm.......  just no.  That would be going beyond the cringe-worthiness of the latest pachislot outing, and Judgement.  Way to ruin a really lovely part of the series.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Belmontoya on May 22, 2016, 09:01:21 AM
Hmm.......  just no.  That would be going beyond the cringe-worthiness of the latest pachislot outing, and Judgement.  Way to ruin a really lovely part of the series.

It was a joke!

You didn't think I was serious did you?

And besides... A Castlevania porno would be nothing without the whip. Seriously...






Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 22, 2016, 09:05:05 AM
I know, but the mental image of that was just too horrific.... XD
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: chainsawmidget on May 22, 2016, 09:55:31 AM
Let's mix and match.  Odds are we're only going to get one shot at this, so we've got to get the poster boys in there. 

I'd actually have Simon be the main character, but use the helper characters from 3 (with Alucard using a design closer to his Symphony look.) 

Have them going on a quest that's part Lord of the Rings part Universal monsters.  Add in the vampire Rosa and that one creepy kid Malus to start with ... maybe Shaft as well. 
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: VladCT on May 22, 2016, 10:59:40 AM
Honestly, I would be okay if the Castlevania movie establishes its own canon as long as it doesn't end up a shallow retread of any of the existing ones and still manages to capture the spirit of Castlevania.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Chernabogue on May 22, 2016, 01:00:32 PM
For some reasons, I always picture a CV3 movie being made. I think it'd be awesome to start with a flashback of Dracula losing Lisa and casting his curse on Europe, with Alucard witnessing it. My amateur filmmaker's mind is full of ideas.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: AlexCalvo on May 22, 2016, 01:17:04 PM
I liked what I read from the Ian Jeffars script...  Trevor, Alucard, Sypha, a retooled Grant, references to Leon and Mathias' history.  Lot's of cool creatures.  But sadly we'll never know what the finished product would have looked like. 

I guess if I were in charge I would want to make something that honored the continuity of the series, let's say... at least 85%.  Give them a little creative liberty breathing room.  I always thought that the origin of the Morris clan would make a good movie.  You can build the Belmont' up as a legend within the world of the movie, playing up their absence as a plot point, as OoE did.  And then boom, third act you find out the Morris guy is a Belmont descendant, play the whole lecarde ritual, and get some reaction shots of the villagers seeing the return of the Belmonts.  Just mesh the story of the first Morris whip weilder with the story of OoE and there you go, throw in a healthy portion of the 64 games' story and blamo, which is exactly what I do in my Castlevania mini-series script that I am 7 episodes into writing. #notkidding  ;D
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 22, 2016, 04:22:08 PM
LOI with a short prologue that takes place before the game's events.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 22, 2016, 04:40:23 PM
LOI with a short prologue that takes place before the game's events.

That could be cool, showing Mathias and Leon in the middle of the Crusades...  I'd actually want to see a full prequel movie leading up to the events of LoI.  A while ago, I read a rather good fanfic set in around this time, before Mathias succumbed to darkness.  I can see events in the Crusades where you see how effective they are, all while Mathias is practicing alchemy in secret.  In the fic (or another for that matter?), I remember Mathias holding an old family grimoire, and it had a dragon emblem on it, as a possible link as to why Mathias changed his name to Dracula.

Edit: I've found the fic: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1915428/1/Castlevania-Tales-Prelude-to-the-Dark-Abyss (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1915428/1/Castlevania-Tales-Prelude-to-the-Dark-Abyss) .
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Belmontoya on May 22, 2016, 04:46:34 PM
For some reasons, I always picture a CV3 movie being made. I think it'd be awesome to start with a flashback of Dracula losing Lisa and casting his curse on Europe, with Alucard witnessing it. My amateur filmmaker's mind is full of ideas.

This. If the movie turned out well it could stem into a film adaption of the NES trilogy.

I totally agree that Dracula's Curse would make the best movie.

But deep down I feel that we're better off not having a CV movie. Odds of it being worth while are just too slim.



Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Dracula9 on May 22, 2016, 04:53:40 PM
It isn't like we've had very many good game-to-film adaptations to establish a good track record of them being made, after all. :(
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Claimh Solais on May 22, 2016, 05:44:31 PM
It isn't like we've had very many good game-to-film adaptations to establish a good track record of them being made, after all. :(

We've had GOOD ones. Can't think of many that are above "good". Granted, I guess what's good or bad is really subjective, but...

I honestly thought Prince of Persia was a really good adaptation, and Assassin's Creed looks to be really shaping up quite well. The first Mortal Kombat was pretty awesome, and I actually really enjoyed the first (just the first) Resident Evil film.

Outside of that, though... Eeeeeeeh. Good point. Not much of a good track record.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 22, 2016, 07:45:50 PM
That could be cool, showing Mathias and Leon in the middle of the Crusades...  I'd actually want to see a full prequel movie leading up to the events of LoI.  A while ago, I read a rather good fanfic set in around this time, before Mathias succumbed to darkness.  I can see events in the Crusades where you see how effective they are, all while Mathias is practicing alchemy in secret.  In the fic (or another for that matter?), I remember Mathias holding an old family grimoire, and it had a dragon emblem on it, as a possible link as to why Mathias changed his name to Dracula.

Edit: I've found the fic: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1915428/1/Castlevania-Tales-Prelude-to-the-Dark-Abyss (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1915428/1/Castlevania-Tales-Prelude-to-the-Dark-Abyss) .


That's cool, I'd like that.

I also see his descent much like Griffith's in Berserk which is also reflective if Lucifer's fall from grace... Something incredibly alluring and poetic about that. Somehow the most brilliant minds turn to darkness, seems to be a recurring theme.

This could also tie in with the Stoker novel where it states something to the effect of Dracula once being a man who sought certain beings beyond the mountains (Carpathians) that dabbled in the black arts. Perhaps we could know how he acquired the Crimson Stone or made it, whether it required a blood oath or a blood sacrifice etc. This could perhaps also clear up whether it indirectly caused Elisabetha's death or if her death was a coincidence and it pushed Mathias over the edge..

Maybe the logical sequence is that Mathias is already practicing alchemy, Elisabetha dies pushing him over the edge, after the crusades he learns of her demise and tries to create the philosopher's stone (edit: maybe he did this because he learned it granted eternal life and he wanted to bring her back). Failing to do so being unable to reach the final stage he inadvertently creates the crimson stone which requires his own blood and thus he's bound to the existence/ title of The Lord of the Vampires. LOI ensues.

Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: AlexCalvo on May 22, 2016, 08:01:56 PM
That is basically the idea I go with in a Mathias pre-LoI fanfic I am writing, which I am already 28 pages into.  I took it down more of a Lovecraftian/Occult road so that I can eventually make it into something original.  But it is all about how what Mathias is doing is the actual reason he loses everything.  He blames god because he cant face the truth, that it's his fault.  This and his quest for knowledge and power leads him down the road of what I like to describe as the demonic/alchemist Walter White.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 22, 2016, 09:17:07 PM
That is basically the idea I go with in a Mathias pre-LoI fanfic I am writing, which I am already 28 pages into.  I took it down more of a Lovecraftian/Occult road so that I can eventually make it into something original.  But it is all about how what Mathias is doing is the actual reason he loses everything.  He blames god because he cant face the truth, that it's his fault.  This and his quest for knowledge and power leads him down the road of what I like to describe as the demonic/alchemist Walter White.

So in your fanfic is it his dabbling in alchemy and the dark arts that cause Elisabetha to die or be sacrificed?

Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: AlexCalvo on May 23, 2016, 05:10:13 AM
Yes. Basically he is using some kind of dark, occultish magic to help his company. For a while the give and take nature of this kind of magic is handled by the scores ofndead enemies. I.E. you get enhanced on the battlefield, we take your fallen enemies as sacrifices. But as power seeking people often do, Mathias steps over the line, and a higher, more personal sacrifice is required.  Elisabetha falls ill for this reason, but Mathias refuses to accept it. He's kind of justified to himself that if he is fighting for God, whatever he does is justified. End justify the means and what have you.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 23, 2016, 08:29:34 AM
Yes. Basically he is using some kind of dark, occultish magic to help his company. For a while the give and take nature of this kind of magic is handled by the scores ofndead enemies. I.E. you get enhanced on the battlefield, we take your fallen enemies as sacrifices. But as power seeking people often do, Mathias steps over the line, and a higher, more personal sacrifice is required.  Elisabetha falls ill for this reason, but Mathias refuses to accept it. He's kind of justified to himself that if he is fighting for God, whatever he does is justified. End justify the means and what have you.

I can see Mathias using Alchemy as a means which he rationalises as provided "by God" to win God's War during The Crusades.
At a base level he uses it to give his soldiers a boost or advantage (be it physical, out of the enemy's field of vision by cloaking etc). At a secondary level the tables turn more in his favour but the blood sacrifice of the enemy's on the battlefield are required. The third level would be the blood sacrifice of fallen enemies as well as those of his own soldiers who fall. The final stage is the oath - bound by the Alchemist's own blood -  where you sacrifice your own humanity and hence what connects you to God. The catch is that a detail is omitted that you must shed that very humanity (by the loss of a something (i.e. someone) who you hold dearest to your [Human] Heart). Once the blood oath is made it's too late to be reversed even though the terms were not clearly stipulated and Mathias may have believed he would simply be losing the part of himself that feels emotions like love, empathy, and so forth. Not fully realising the terms and believing the last battle couldn't be won he thought of everything and everyone he'd lose if he didn't turn to Dark magic. He thought of Elisabetha and of their lives and futures together, all of which would be nought if they lost their battle. So he took the oath and underwent the ritual. (This embodies a darker version of the 4 stages of Alchemy.)

Mathias tactician mind of doing God's bidding and being merciless to those who oppose God had taken any means necessary when he had known certain battles were heavily not in his army's favour. He sacrifices his own humanity so that he and his army/ people can win God's battle and serve God. He could have believed that God would protect him and his loved ones regardless of the means he sought to ensure the success of God's children. Since he sacrificed everything for God and gave the biggest sacrifice of all (himself; his humanity) he feels abandoned by God and blames him for letting Elisabetha die, not realising or refusing to see that her sudden illness was nobody else's fault but his, that all along he himself was in fact responsible for her death. The sacrifice of his own humanity could be rationalised as him believing it was an offering to God, much like the way Kain believed slaying Abel would be an offering to God.

After what he believes was his sacrifice to God meant nothing due to Elisabetha's death, he attempts to create the Philosopher's Stone - which he is already part way through - in an attempt to revive Elisabetha. He the genius, fails, however, and blames God for the outcome. Since in the process he creates the Crimson Stone with the aide of the aforementioned blood oath ritual, he vows to live for eternity cursing God. Only later this War eventually includes humanity when Lisa is burned at the stake for accusation of witchcraft.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Dracula9 on May 23, 2016, 08:56:35 AM
>reads last few posts
>see alchemy being assigned absolute morality
>see alchemy being confused with black magic
>see alchemy being turned into something that's not alchemy at all
>see alchemy being applied as an umbrella term because it sounds cool or whatever

(https://media4.giphy.com/media/5XPb0FvIqylqg/200.gif)

Like I know CV's already got a slightly off-center concept of alchemy and how it works thematically and symbolically, but this is ridiculous. There's no "dark" version of alchemy because alchemy is inherently neutral; how it is used and why assigns morality and only then to the specific instances--the alchemy itself doesn't care one way or the other, its practitioners are the ones with the moral attachment. It's nice to see that there's some actual understanding of the alchemic process and consideration for the steps of the Magnum Opus, but even that's more surface-level understanding than anything.

If you want a better look at a theory to incorporate the Magnum Opus into Castlevania, look no further than Mathias' collarbone--the Crimson Stone IS the Philosopher's Stone, born from the Prima Materia that is Chaos and providing eternal life through vampirism.

What I'm seeing here isn't much more than something loosely inspired by Fullmetal Alchemist's equivalent exchange principle, which while effective and well-researched thematically into real-world alchemic philosophy, isn't a strong enough concept on its own to just run with.

"You want more power, shed your humanity?" That's not really how equivalent exchange would work, and in this context it would only really make sense if there was a presiding force or entity over the exchange which had a bias as far as what counted as "equal," if the power being described here can be bought simply by relinquishing a mortal lifetime. That kind of exchange assumes an exchange of the human soul, which only has the necessary inherent value if some morally-committed entity or force controls the exchange--right, like God. And if a morally-biased force presides over the exchange, and by extension/inference all of alchemy, then all of alchemy is morally-charged, and if alchemy is morally-charged, then it's not alchemy and citing real-world philosophies and principles and steps and processes is folly.

Alchemy thematically is about understanding the universe, existence, and one's place within it at large and vice-versa, with attachments to the divine being present or absent depending on which sect or school of alchemic teaching one looks at. It's not "good" or "evil" or "light" or "dark." It just is. Creatures of morality such as humans determine their own usage's morality on their own terms--alchemy as a process doesn't really give a shit one way or the other.

This isn't really alchemy. It's black magic and occultism being worded as alchemy purely for the sake of semantics.

Remove the moral veil from the overarching process and you begin to have something which can be called alchemy. With an assigned morality one way or the other, it ceases being the potential that is alchemy and becomes a singular force for the given moral preference.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 23, 2016, 10:21:07 AM
Sorry guys, but I'm with D9 on this.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 23, 2016, 04:07:59 PM
There's no need to be sorry Seraph, I can't speak for anyone else but I wasn't attempting to pretend I know everything about alchemy or the alchemical process, I was simply floating Alex some ideas for an existing fanfic.


>reads last few posts
>see alchemy being assigned absolute morality
>see alchemy being confused with black magic
>see alchemy being turned into something that's not alchemy at all
>see alchemy being applied as an umbrella term because it sounds cool or whatever


Firstly I know there is a difference between Alchemy and dark magic, I've actually studied it in a University setting. The way I perceive Alchemy (not the dictionary definition) is the connection between all things, a holistic way of looking at one's place in the Universe/ beyond. Dark magic is clearly not that. Which I was stating Mathias could initially be using one but end up falling deeper and deeper into darkness by his own volition to try to win God's battles. I never associated Alchemy itself with being dark or light etc. There's also no reason both can not exist within the same universe, and no reason Mathias can not fall into the latter.

The only reason Alchemy is required in the plot if at all would be the creation of the Crimson Stone. For all we know the stone was already around and Mathias acquired it by some other means.

The whole point to include any of this was:
- Mathias falling from grace (the What)
- Mathias acquiring the Crimson Stone (the How)
- The Dracula novel which is a part of CV's canon mentions he dabbled in Dark Arts/ Magic

Hence including both would tie both the Dracula novel's story and LOI's story together.

In the sense of a narrative which is a fanfic no less, it doesn't make sense that Mathias was happy-go-lucky until he arrived home to see his SO die, then be all "Aww rats, f*** God now..". There needs to be a build to something.

Like I know CV's already got a slightly off-center concept of alchemy and how it works thematically and symbolically 

Exactly, so the point above in red is redundant and you've just contradicted yourself.

but this is ridiculous.

..Need a hug?

If you want a better look at a theory to incorporate the Magnum Opus into Castlevania, look no further than Mathias' collarbone--the Crimson Stone IS the Philosopher's Stone, born from the Prima Materia that is Chaos and providing eternal life through vampirism.

Bullshit. The Philosopher's Stone and the Crimson Stone are two different things. In context of CV we learn there are 4 stones of Alchemy; Ebony, Crimson, Philosopher's and one unnamed.

St Germain is also a figure who in the Alchemical sense was known to have mastered Alchemy and gained eternal life. Within CV's context he would have had to create the Philosopher's Stone to attain eternal life, more than likely in some capacity by which Rinaldo informs Leon about in LOI.

"You want more power, shed your humanity?" That's not really how equivalent exchange would work

From what Dungeonites have described regarding the LOI manga prequel, this is exactly the exchange between Walter and Death. I'm not saying that the exchange would be the same with Mathias (nobody knows exactly how he acquires the Crimson Stone, whether he made it etc) I'm not even laying out the blueprint for how or what capacity the process would work because it's not my fanfic. I'm floating ideas to Alex for his.

This isn't really alchemy. It's black magic and occultism being worded as alchemy purely for the sake of semantics.

As stated nobody is saying the two can not exist in the same universe. There's also nothing to say an Alchemist can not cross the line into unorthodox processes by which whatever is being done could be construed as something more sinister.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 23, 2016, 05:53:36 PM
*Shrugs*  No need to apologise.  I've looked a little into this stuff purely out of interest of some of the origins of science.  I find it fascinating in that to some eyes, Newton was perceived as an 'occultist', just as Galileo was a heretic for his views on astronomy.  The history of astronomy and physics is glorious.

  To me, Mathias was an alchemist, the latest in a long lie of alchemists most likely.  As D9 said, his intentions were good in the beginning, he was devout in his Faith, and the alchemy itself as 'neutral' in nature, having both lighter and darker parts to it.  However, most likely in my eyes, it was Elisabetha's death which pushed him over the edge and succumbing to the darkness in his heart, turning to the darker side of magic completely, which I guess he'd be aware of and maybe dabbled in to some extent, separate to his alchemy?  The alchemical process requiring a sacrifice - i.e. - Elisabetha's death - is the bit I'm less sure on, and not liking here, along with the suggestion that the alchemy = black magic.  Just my two cents on the matter. :)
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Dracula9 on May 23, 2016, 06:39:23 PM
Quote
Bullshit. The Philosopher's Stone and the Crimson Stone are two different things. In context of CV we learn there are 4 stones of Alchemy; Ebony, Crimson, Philosopher's and one unnamed.

St Germain is also a figure who in the Alchemical sense was known to have mastered Alchemy and gained eternal life. Within CV's context he would have had to create the Philosopher's Stone to attain eternal life, more than likely in some capacity by which Rinaldo informs Leon about in LOI.

Ah, now who's the one being unwilling to accept alternative possibilities, hm?

I could elaborate my theory in (great) detail, but since you've already acted snide about this and assumed I meant the two can't exist simultaneously (hint, I wasn't, but alchemy really isn't "kill your wife, get power" unless you have some iteration which assumes the value of a human soul, which only has significant value in a morally-biased system, which would not then be alchemy (did this not sink in the first time I said it?)), I'll just give the rundown.

-Philosopher's Stone requires difficult to acquire and/or unknown ingredients to make, the names of which shrouded in mystery

-Philosopher's Stone requires the Prima Materia

-Philosopher's Stone supposedly grants eternal life, and depending on the text discussing it superhuman powers

-Philosopher's Stone in the purest form is deep red

-Crimson Stone required a difficult to acquire and rare ingredient in the form of a powerful vampire's soul

-Crimson Stone likely could use the power of Chaos as its Prima Materia due to the connections and connotations of Dracula's power coming from Chaos later in the series, which is sensible due to what Prima Materia means and that chaos as a force of entropy (both in the universe at large and within the hearts of humans) is something that predates anything else--existence being born from entropy and chaos; many different names for it: chaos, ether, entropy, but whether in a human's heart or in the greater universe it all means the same thing thematically--potential for being.

-Crimson Stone provides eternal life in the form of vampirism. Nobody ever said how the Philosopher's Stone provided immortality.

-Crimson Stone's deep fucking red. I guess rubedo doesn't matter even if the Stone in question is the exact color of a completed and 'pure' Stone, though, does it?

I love how I'm full of shit for acknowledging a rather sensible connection purely because "waah the canon doesn't explicitly say so," despite the shitload of rational connections that do so. The CV Universe doesn't state that Crimson and Ebony are absolute stages of the process of the Magnum Opus, it simply states that they are results of the process.

Rinaldo considers the Crimson one to be "incorrect" or as he puts it, an accidental. But let's look again and what the Philosopher's Stone is said to bestow on its maker and what the Crimson Stone bestows on Mathias.

Huh, look at that. The bestowed effects line up pretty closely! Imagine that. Immortality and fabulous powers.

Ah, but I suppose that since Rinaldo said it, it simply must be true! There's no way that, in-universe, his judgment may be affected by his morality and beliefs, and that a Stone that provides the exact abilities told in legend through means considered at the time to be evil or unholy (vampirism) would, due to those beliefs and morals, be deemed "false" because the delievered effects are not preferable.

What I'm saying is, Rinaldo condemning the Crimson Stone as incomplete or inaccurate could very well be a case of "this this X isn't the way I always thought X would be! It must be a false version or incomplete iteration!" because of the very plausible potential for the assignment of morality to a process that doesn't give a shit about morals.

Alchemy is like a self-regulating machine--Mathias surrenders his humanity through vampirism, and as we see later on the only thing that ultimately keeps Dracula's power stamped down is the stereotypical elements of love and friendship and all that. The eclipse sealing killed his main body off for good and cut off his power source, but even that wasn't permanent as his power revived in Soma. And when Soma stood upon the brink of turning into the new Dark Lord, what prevented that from happening? Mina's charm and everything it represented. The things that suppressed Dracula's power at the moment they could have returned in full force were the very things Dracula gave up in his bid for power.

Now one could look at this as a divine irony, but really it feels more of a self-regulated flaw. There's really no such thing as perfection, and even the most powerful of things have a weakness somewhere. Alchemy, being self-regulating, would in this sense assign the things given to it as the hole in the armor to the end product, simply because it has those things on-hand and doesn't have to create something new as the flaw.

Think of alchemy like a factory machine that produces pastries. It produces the same kind of pastry day in and day out and everybody knows and loves what this particular brand of pastry has to offer--they know its name, they love how it tastes, and they can't wait for the moment they can get another one. Now suppose I throw a handful of meatballs into the production machine and the machine keeps on making pastries as if nothing happened. Now we have a batch of pastries with meatballs in them. Well, so many people grew to know and love what the original recipe had, and for a great deal of them this new divergent batch is off-putting. Many of them refuse to even consider what the new ones taste like purely because it's not what they've come to know from that brand. However, there would obviously be some out there for whom this new batch would taste quite good and be enjoyed, despite the protests of the rest who firmly believe that the original flavor is the only "good" flavor.

Does my metaphor make sense? The original batch of pastries is the "normal" Philosopher's Stone and the meatball batch is the Crimson Stone. The die-hard lovers of the old batch who refuse to acknowledge the meatball one as having value are Rinaldo and the ones who enjoy the meatball ones are Mathias.

The machine doesn't recognize what the people who use its product consider "good" or "bad," and provided you don't make changes which would structurally break or damage the machine it'll keep on doing what it knows how to do regardless of what new ingredients you throw into it. Meatballs, strawberries, a jug of Pepsi, the machine will continue producing pastries and will simply just be offshoots with different flavors and textures. And even if you did break the machine with an ingredient unable to be processed normally, the machine wouldn't produce anything undesirable or twisted--it would shut itself down and just not produce anything more until the obstruction is removed.

The machine is alchemy. It doesn't care one way or the other and only does what it knows how to do. Morality is assigned to the process and results by the people who use it. It does not gain or lose moral fiber because its users declare it as such. It still remains neutral.

I can call the sky blue and someone else can call it orange, but does the sky actually care or alter itself based on what either of us say? Of course not, it existed before either of us were around and the terms we use are only terms that we ourselves assign value and meaning to--sky doesn't give a shit what we think its color is, it's gonna go right on existing as it always has either way.

Quote
St Germain is also a figure who in the Alchemical sense was known to have mastered Alchemy and gained eternal life. Within CV's context he would have had to create the Philosopher's Stone to attain eternal life, more than likely in some capacity by which Rinaldo informs Leon about in LOI.

Um, no? CV's St. Germain's a time traveller, and there are no hints whatsoever that he is either an alchemist or immortal. Now the Comte de Saint Germain has those connotations, but it's not entirely sensible to assign the real-world stories to a fictional character bearing his name. Based on what we have documented about the Comte de Saint Germain, and what is told of CV's St. Germain, there's nothing linking the two other than name and the legends of popping up here and there throughout history.

Popping up here and there throughout history is something a time traveller would be entirely capable of doing. It doesn't automatically make the guy immortal or and alchemist.

I understand entirely that you were merely offering suggestions and avenues for the writer, but there is a connection being made within those suggestions that should not be being made.

Alchemy is not a dark magic, nor is dark magic the same as alchemy. One might use ideas or methods from the other, but the intent and structure of each are vastly different. Dark magic within the game universe has connotations of "evil" or demonic involvement, whereas alchemy, again, doesn't give a shit about morality either way. Something like sacrificing a loved one by accident in a bid for power using dark magics isn't really something alchemy would do, since alchemy would require you to deliberately add that loved one as an ingredient, and wouldn't produce unexpected/undesirable results out of nowhere. It wouldn't just up and kill your loved one as an ironic bargain while you were off using the power gained by your dabbling--alchemy would require you to consciously put that person into the recipe for something to happen to them.

Dabbling in powers beyond imagining that grant great and terrible power that take something very near and dear to you in exchange? Sounds more like something a malevolent entity would do, like a demon pact. And despite the retconning, we have seen such a pact in CV before with Renon.

Mathias losing Elisabetha tragically in his bid for power wouldn't really be alchemy unless he himself threw her on the table and offered her up to the process. What you described is more "deal with the devil" territory.

You say you weren't making such a connection, but the entire bit deliberating how Mathias used stages of alchemy to fight for God and that the ultimate stage was to shed humanity to become like God and that doing so required the loss of something dear to your human heart--i.e. a loved one. This, again, assumes a moral bias on the part of alchemy. Mathias thinking it relates to God is his own preference, and doesn't affect the alchemy, this much is true. However, the caveat you describe as having to shed humanity by means of something like a loved one falls under the jurisdiction of the human soul having inherent value so as to equal that sort of exchange, and that kind of value placed on a human soul is one that only really happens in religion, which would assume that the alchemic exchange therein has a moral overhang, which isn't how it works.

I wasn't inherently calling YOU specifically out in my previous post, but rather that the inaccurate connections were being made in general. It just happened that a lot of what I said lined up as conflicting with what you'd said.

As D9 said, his intentions were good in the beginning, he was devout in his Faith, and the alchemy itself as 'neutral' in nature, having both lighter and darker parts to it. However, most likely in my eyes, it was Elisabetha's death which pushed him over the edge and succumbing to the darkness in his heart, turning to the darker side of magic completely, which I guess he'd be aware of and maybe dabbled in to some extent, separate to his alchemy?

No no no, what I meant by that was not that alchemy has "light" and "dark" in harmony, but that alchemy inherently just is and only has what moral associations we give to it. It's neutral on its own, literally and entirely neutral. The pastry machine I used as metaphor earlier--we wouldn't say that it has "light" and "dark" parts to it, because it's just a machine that only does what you put into it and tell it to do, right? Same concept.

As for the rest--that's about how I see things. Mathias lost Elisabetha through means unrelated to alchemy or magic, got pissed off at God, and decided to dabble in the things he considered to be reprehensible to said God--i.e. vampirism, eternal life, black magics, etc. All was good and well until his wife died (or was "taken" by God as he feels), at which point he decided to basically do as much as he could to piss God off forever as retaliation.

--------------

Lastly, really?

You actually played the "oh well the game universe gets it slightly wrong so you acknowledging that going forward means you contradicted yourself hurr hurr" card?

C'mon dude, that's a shit argument and you know it. It'd work if I was applying ONLY real-world knowledge and lingo to the game world, but I haven't been--I've been using said real-world knowledge and lingo to fill in the gaps within the game story in a way that makes sense within the game story by means of deviations to what is considered the "standard" to what basically amounts to a magic rock nobody's ever actually seen in person to know the true effects of.

Oh, and having studied it in college doesn't mean anything either. I didn't study it in a college setting and look at the level of understanding of it I have. I realize that you brought it up in response to me stating my appreciation for there being some understanding of the knowledge being present, but I don't really care that you read into it at university. People can flaunt degrees and proof of having studied until they're blue in the face (and maybe I'm being a bit too harsh on this bit, but I've had to continually deal with a special breed of asshole who believes his degree makes his work infallible and flawless for longer than I care to admit, so I concede that I may very well have a bias on this one, so take it with some salt), but I care far less about the fact that one studied something and far more about their ability to utilize that knowledge. Don't tell me you've studied it, show me.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 23, 2016, 06:51:43 PM
I gathered as much.  What I meant by it having lighter and parter parts is that due to its neutral nature, it can be used for good or ill purposes, depending on the alchemist.  It was be 'dark' in a way, as it can be used for such purposes, just as it can likewise used for good.  *Shrugs*  Sorry, my words are getting a bit muddled in how they're falling out of my brain atm.  I should probably take it as a sign for going and gettign some sleep at some point. :)  In an case, I'm agreeing with you on that front abotu alchemy being neutral, but is shaped by the intent.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 23, 2016, 07:10:31 PM
D9 I'm not  unwilling to accept alternatives, nor acting snide, I asked if you wanted a hug, because you  seemed genuinely offended at a 2 minute post that was written to offer Alex ideas on his fanfic. I've never claimed to know more on the subject of Alchemy than yourself or others and my comments were made and expanded upon in my last post.

I'll keep it short, Rinaldo is not God but in context of LOI he is the sage persona who offers knowledge to the protagonist and seems to understand Alchemy, specifically the 4 stones. This counts for a lot in LOI because we're barely given anything as to the discourse of Alchemy or how Mathias acquires the Crimson Stone. He was also right about the Whip of Alchemy requiring a tainted soul to be complete which was oddly specific and right on the money. (This isn't CVII where some villagers are offering the player bum deals on information ;) )

On that note, all of you don't get me wrong, I'm not attempting to rewrite the sequence of events as to how Elisabetha dies and when Mathias goes down a certain road to acquire the CS, the narrative in previous posts was not my attempt to explain away the canon, it was directed to Alex only. (I'm surprised it was read at all.) I do not believe this to be the canon itself.

As for Saint Germain I'm not speaking about the Count (although CV's SG does seem as sophisticated as a Count) I'm speaking of the Alchemical figure who is often called Master Alchemist. Some consider him the same figure as the Count of SG, others believe the two are different figures entirely. There is evidence in his official artwork that hints at possessing the philosopher's stone imo, but I've already posted about this long ago and I don't feel I should post it without localising it to another thread.

I would like to say thank you for offering all the information you have. It seems like researching Alchemy has been an interest of yours and I'm glad that Alex can perhaps incorporate some of that into his fanfic if he decides to go down that route. 
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Dracula9 on May 23, 2016, 07:22:44 PM
Ah, alright. Without the Master Alchemist specification, I went with the most obvious iteration of SG in the Comte.

And my apologies--things like "need a hug?" and calling bullshit were interpreted the wrong way.

Lastly, I understand that Rinaldo is used as a sage-wisdom kind of character to Leon, who knows next to nothing about the subject, but that doesn't make his perspective infallible. Leon knows nothing about alchemy--Rinaldo could have just as easily told him alchemy required you to strip naked and run around the woods for seven years to become one with the earth or something and Leon wouldn't have known any better. Rinaldo is wise to his end, but even the wisest of people have the capacity to be wrong and have their judgment clouded by personal bias.

And yes, alchemy, esotericism, occultism, all of these things fascinate me intently. To see how older generations viewed and sought to understand the universe around them and their place in it--this is immensely captivating for me, and many of the philosophies therein ring true even today; particularly, the paradoxial logic of alchemy being absolute in its relativism. Shit's a head-spinner, but it's an amazing head-spinner.

Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 23, 2016, 07:46:44 PM
Ah, alright. Without the Master Alchemist specification, I went with the most obvious iteration of SG in the Comte.

It's my opinion that the CV version of SG is probably a synthesis of both figures. I do also believe him to be the ancient sage Eneomaos who left all of the Devil Forgemaster (which seems to be an Alchemical process) information for Hector and ultimately assists him to "alter his destiny" i.e. not becoming the vessel for Dracula, but that's another theory. It's simply how I interpreted the character at the time and mind you I haven't played COD in nearly a decade.

And my apologies--things like "need a hug?" and calling bullshit were interpreted the wrong way.
All good, no apologies necessary. :)

Lastly, I understand that Rinaldo is used as a sage-wisdom kind of character to Leon, who knows next to nothing about the subject, but that doesn't make his perspective infallible. Leon knows nothing about alchemy--Rinaldo could have just as easily told him alchemy required you to strip naked and run around the woods for seven years to become one with the earth or something and Leon wouldn't have known any better.
^Ideal Castlevania Movie^ right there...

I no longer feel bad about potentially derailing the thread :P

Rinaldo is wise to his end, but even the wisest of people have the capacity to be wrong and have their judgment clouded by personal bias.

This is true, but the little bits/ cutscenes that we're given are about all we have to go off in the game. I'm just trying to use the least amount of assumptions to understand the actual canon. This is why I always believed LOI should have also been a movie (animated preferably) where it could've gone into more detail about everything. 

And yes, alchemy, esotericism, occultism, all of these things fascinate me intently. To see how older generations viewed and sought to understand the universe around them and their place in it--this is immensely captivating for me, and many of the philosophies therein ring true even today; particularly, the paradoxial logic of alchemy being absolute in its relativism. Shit's a head-spinner, but it's an amazing head-spinner.

It's been a good 6 years since I was studying anything to do with Alchemy. We never went into great detail on any specifics but it was more of Alchemy Philosophy 101, connecting the seemingly unconnected.. It's a lot to go into but it definitely struck a chord that resonated with me. One of my favourite electives for sure.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 24, 2016, 04:16:01 AM
It's bouncing around my head again that I think that a Lords of Shadow based movie could be rather fun.  There's a wide enough cast of main characters and setting info to know some key stuff going on in the setting, while there's enough not there to be able to have some creative fun.  Perhaps, even Mirror of Fate could work, in film form?
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Dracula9 on May 24, 2016, 04:22:56 AM
Wasn't Dracula Untold basically LoS1, though?  :D
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 24, 2016, 05:16:37 AM
Wasn't Dracula Untold basically LoS1, though?  :D

It came across to me as a weird cross inspired by a mix of LoS and the main timeline.  The Master Vampire sort of fulfills the role of a cross between Zobek and Carmilla (in terms of her function of turning Vlad, and telling him that he will end up turning completely).  I even had this crazy idea for a crossover fic in my head where I picutured Ingeras growing up and ending up becoming Alucard. :)  That said, an all-out Castlevania LoS film could be quite fun. 
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 24, 2016, 07:09:39 AM
It came across to me as a weird cross inspired by a mix of LoS and the main timeline.  The Master Vampire sort of fulfills the role of a cross between Zobek and Carmilla (in terms of her function of turning Vlad, and telling him that he will end up turning completely).  I even had this crazy idea for a crossover fic in my head where I picutured Ingeras growing up and ending up becoming Alucard. :)  That said, an all-out Castlevania LoS film could be quite fun.

Hit the nail on the head... LOS Gabula meets Zomilla..
Classic boy meets stranger, stranger offers boy eternal life at a price-cliché narrative.
The rest writes itself  8)
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: KaZudra on May 24, 2016, 08:15:58 AM
Castlevania movie....

First off the plot should steer away from an origin story, leave it as a short prologue and not drag it out, too much of that in recent years.
The story should center around the Belmont, being both feared and necessary should result in better interactions with characters.
Characters. Castlevania isn't about having many characters, nor much interaction, if executed right, Belmont could interact with plenty of side characters to humanize him.
Dracula needs to be evil and with a motive, the goal is to build him up as a someone you want to see die in the end but still doubtful if Belmont can actually do it.
There also needs to be a subtle campiness to it to keep things in a good pace, without some comedic relief, the story becomes less interesting as the tone never shifts to keep the viewer wanting to come back to it, It's a very essential part of drama.
Belmont needs to be a badass, but still human.
There also needs to be a reason, in the game you don't really need a reason, you're playing a game, but in entertainment without interaction, motives and reasons need to be thoroughly thought through.

Lastly and most importantly, it needs to have an appeal that pleases both those who play castlevania and a good way to introduce castlevania to those never heard of it, Most VG movies neglect this and rely too much on player prior knowledge to make up for the lack of plot.

So, which game fits best? the obvious choice would be Castlevania 3, there's plenty going on and enough characters for constant interaction and lore trading to make a great movie without any drastic creative liberties.
Second choice would be Bloodlines, The buddy-cop formula can work especially with a more familiar historic setting, plus it can grab attention from bram stoker Dracula fans.
Third choice, LoD/CV64, if taken some pages out of the beta concepts, you'll have a rather diverse crew and an already interesting take on dracula

Just Do not do LoS, if it already plays like a movie, don't attempt to make it into a movie.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: AlexCalvo on May 24, 2016, 04:40:58 PM
Let's not forget two important details here...

We're talking about an “alchemy” that can be used to make monsters, magical weapons, and steal vampire souls.  This is not really the pseudo-science of history, it is a fictitious version of it set in a dark fantasy version of the world where magic and stuff is real.  I don't think it's completely necessary to stay so within the lines of what alchemy was historically.

Second, in the old games' Japanese manuals Dracula is said to have been a dark sorcerer long before he becomes a vampire, not just an alchemist, and notice that I specifically said that I was going for a more Lovecraftian type occultism than just alchemy.  And I don't think that is inconsistent with what we know about Mathias as a character.  I don't know about you, but given his actions and what Rinaldo says about him in LoI, coupled with what the old games said about pre-vampire Dracula, I would imagine he was knowledgeable in many more magical disciplines than just alchemy.
Title: Re: Ideal Castlevania movie
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on June 01, 2016, 02:03:54 AM
Y'all are gonna kill me for saying this but I think Lords of Shadow was the Castlevania movie we'd have realistically gotten. It has "Hollywood adaptation" written all over it.

And honestly, I'm fine with it.

If I had a choice about what game got adapted, I think I'd actually shoot for Portrait of Ruin. The World War II setting virtually eliminated the need for an origin story, and everything about the Castlevania half of the setting else can be gradually revealed through dialog after a short text intro making mention of the generalities of the series plot. I'd tweak it by making Brauner a Nazi scientist tasked with cracking the secrets of Dracula's power to tie it into the World War II era, but early into the film he learns of the deaths of his daughters which pushes him over the edge. Stella and Loretta need not be the descendants of the Lecarde family (kind of an unnecessary detail for a film version) and they might be simplified as the daughters of a Romani vampire hunter with a connection to the Belmont family instead.

Also that orb... armor... thing... Death is wearing in game needs to go away. Like forever.