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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: theplottwist on May 29, 2016, 11:12:13 AM

Title: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: theplottwist on May 29, 2016, 11:12:13 AM
So, as every Castlevania fan's curiosity has lead him to question one day, what IS the meaning of the painting in Royal Chapel? Here it is, to jog the memory of those who just left their hibernation chambers:

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FrLeASp3.png&hash=a4e500af512047e6ad661c3f30e2715a355dd871)

As many of you have done, I have looked it up through the internet for answers, to no avail.

Of course, the most logical conclusion here is that this drawing is original, but what is the meaning? I have my own interpretation: This might symbolize the destruction of Pompeii. The flying skeletons killing people are symbolisms for the impending death, while the black cloud in the background is nothing more than the volcano's eruption.

Funnily, one of the bosses fought in this room is of Greek-mythology origin, while the other is said to be one symbol for the greek god Apollo.

What is your interpretation? Does anyone there know the true meaning of this painting?
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: Dracula9 on May 29, 2016, 01:19:17 PM
Classic art inspiration is possible.

The Plague Of Epirus, Pierre Mignard
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-F4NjjCMX_5c%2FVErYnEoIu4I%2FAAAAAAAAANg%2FQLSOVccLQic%2Fs1600%2FPenley%252Bpicture.jpg&hash=d16d17c24a8d4a2f5de1e1a7d9c8b77ace9cafde)


Plague of Athens
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.weirdlyodd.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F08%2F88.jpg&hash=fd0e307007632a5c8d721dc676b1535a7160f9b6)

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wikigallery.org%2Fdownload%3D333631-School_Plague-Of-Athens.jpg&hash=0d03311414ca0ccdc7842d6f5d5dc4ef3ec2d641)

Note how people cowering and lying dead, broken architecture, and smoke/clouds rolling in with various figures among it in the sky are all shared elements.
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: theplottwist on May 30, 2016, 09:04:56 AM
Actually seems plausible.

Though, looking back now, the flying, scythe-wielding skeletons are too specific to be a symbolism. I tried searching for greek mythology involving this imagery, but nothing came up.
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 30, 2016, 10:44:18 AM
Thinking inside (yes inside) of the box the Chapel does contain winged skeletons as does this painting. Maybe a simpleton's view but one can't help but mention it. Although given the scythes these appear to be more akin to reapers.

Things I can see of numerical significance are:
- 3 stars; constellation of Orion
- 6 Winged Skeletons (reapers?)
- 9 human looking beings, all with the same coloured hair and garbed in light clothing, in the midst of being killed by them

Biblical:
The fact all the human looking beings appear the same as well as the light/ same garbs and hair could imply they're not human in the traditional sense.. Their faces are clearly a distinct colour from their skin.. Are they angels? 9 beings with hair like fire (enlightened?) = an allegory for the 9 orders of celestial beings, getting slain by Demonic figures? Ironically the sun (Son - of God) is blocked and the beings slain.

Are the skeletons the fallen angels bereft of the "flesh and blood" bestowed by God?
The dark clouds/ opening in the sky could symbolise "The Abyss". In a biblical sense could it be the War of between the angels and the demons (originally angels) who rebel against God. In most of said depictions you'd see the archangel Michael killing a Demon, but in this case
it's not a typical depiction. Orion is associated with Sirius(the Dog Star), which could also infer demonic connotations.

Architectural:
The piece of Architecture in the background definitely looks like The Parthenon. 8 columns on the short side, 17 to the long side.
8 x 17 = 136, interestingly multiples of 3 also. (1x3x6 = 18; 666 or 9)

Wikipedia:
"The Parthenon was converted into a Christian church in the final decade of the sixth century AD[77] to become the Church of the Parthenos Maria (Virgin Mary), or the Church of the Theotokos (Mother of God). The orientation of the building was changed to face towards the east; the main entrance was placed at the building's western end."
Interesting...
Christianity and Sun (Son) Worship/ Paganism? One of the bosses in this room is a red Hippogryph and shoots flames (ties to the sun?)
Medusa also has associations with the sun; averting one's eyes and a gaze that can inflict harm to the viewer, as well as both having ties to the ancient world in general. 

"At the time of the Latin occupation, it became for about 250 years a Roman Catholic church of Our Lady. During this period a tower, used either as a watchtower or bell tower and containing a spiral staircase, was constructed at the southwest corner of the cella, and vaulted tombs were built beneath the Parthenon's floor."
SOTN's Royal Chapel seems to contain all of the above from memory.

Really interesting post Plottwist. Thank you. :)
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: Dracula9 on May 30, 2016, 03:17:39 PM
Quote from: theplottwist on May 30, 2016, 09:04:56 AM
Actually seems plausible.

Though, looking back now, the flying, scythe-wielding skeletons are too specific to be a symbolism. I tried searching for greek mythology involving this imagery, but nothing came up.

You won't find any. The Ancient Greeks personified Death as Thanatos, appearing either as a winged man or young boy.

Death as a skeleton is more a European thing than a Hellenic thing.
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: Guy Belmont on May 30, 2016, 06:44:20 PM
Yeah I love that pic, just been to this great Castle, oh architecture the art work all of it the feel, was sooo AOD/ CV.
I always thought it was a shame Konami  never released replica of those paintings, man would I buy those.
But Thanks for the post, always wondered what that painting was based on.
Wonder if the staff went on a trip to Europe for research.
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on May 30, 2016, 08:55:38 PM
Beep Boop

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fscienceheathen.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F01%2Fimage53-e1421693376186.jpg&hash=429f93b88675d57c52f706b79ae7a2e882f00ab9)
Not quite there, but close!


(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreviews.123rf.com%2Fimages%2Fclodio%2Fclodio1403%2Fclodio140300094%2F26910290-Clusone-Bergamo-Lombardy-Italy-Oratorio-dei-Disciplini-Danza-Macabra-Dance-of-the-Death-ancient-fres-Stock-Photo.jpg&hash=d4fe0257f5e8948c38511c5684410d71e9c267f0)
Closer...

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lamortdanslart.com%2Fdanse%2FCroatie%2Fdm_beram02.jpg&hash=8f8436e677618307408a36c85703bfab79a76340)
Hmm...
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: TheTextGuy on May 31, 2016, 06:26:07 AM
Quote from: Jorge D. Fuentes on May 30, 2016, 08:55:38 PM

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreviews.123rf.com%2Fimages%2Fclodio%2Fclodio1403%2Fclodio140300094%2F26910290-Clusone-Bergamo-Lombardy-Italy-Oratorio-dei-Disciplini-Danza-Macabra-Dance-of-the-Death-ancient-fres-Stock-Photo.jpg&hash=d4fe0257f5e8948c38511c5684410d71e9c267f0)
Closer...

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lamortdanslart.com%2Fdanse%2FCroatie%2Fdm_beram02.jpg&hash=8f8436e677618307408a36c85703bfab79a76340)
Hmm...

It's been a while ever since I've done a complete playthrough of SoTN, but for some reason I'm reminded of the Catacombs when I saw the last two pics.
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: Eric Roman on May 31, 2016, 08:09:14 PM
That awesome touch always struck me as Black Plague refernce.  Despite the temples, which aren't really in the context of the Middle-Ages event as Jorge & TextGuy's posts illustrate. :p
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: TheouAegis on June 01, 2016, 07:55:36 AM
While we're in the topic of Castlevania art, could this have been the inspiration of Legion?

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.knowla.org%2Fuploads%2F2%2FEncyclopedia%2Fpainting%2Fthumbs-lg%2Flg-judgement-day-1778.jpg&hash=04c9583ed6420db94434af6ad96caeefb26933df)
John McCrady's "Judgement Day" (1938)

At first I thought the mass of bodies at the top were those being raptured, as denoted by the beams of light in the background. However, if you follow the mass of bodies, they actually seem to be coming from what appears to be a burning city in the distant background.

Legion's bodies that drop from it maybe were inspired by the people following the devil.


So even though Legion was named after the demons from New Testament, perhaps the design was based on "Judgement Day". That would also explain the religious imagery around it.

In the Royal Chapel, when you pass by the painting discussed in this post, the first time it's right-side up showing the triumph of Death (yes, that's a painting title, but it's not the one referenced here). I'm going somewhere with this...

In the Catacombs, there are sculptures of angels sounding trumpets (one of the features of the Biblical Judgement Day). In the background is a painting of tormented souls clamoring for salvation. In the inverted castle, the painting discussed here is upside down, representing the defeat of Death, which is in essence what many expect to happen at Judgement Day. Interestingly, if you look around more in Legion's lair, there is an interesting sculpture - a caduceus (or rather, two), the symbol for the Greek god Hermes. Hermes was a god of writing and magic, and also led the souls of the dead to the underworld. His caduceus was believed by some to ease death and revive the deceased. Perhaps then in essence Legion wasn't so much a villain but rather the usher of souls (trapped in Castlevania or something). It may be a bit easier to notice in Galamoth's room.


And speaking of Galamoth, I tried digging around into him a bit more. His portrayal in Kid Dracula aside, his SotN image seems reminiscent of Mesopotamian art, especially considering how he moves and all. That ain't much of a stretch, when you consider CV3 used Pazuzu for Dracula's final form. So I tried delving into that a bit. It also occurred to me that perhaps Galamoth was an amalgam of deities (or whatnot). Again, this isn't much of a stretch because Mediterranean cross-culturing and especially the Japanese mish-mashed a lot of names. Based on his appearance and fighting style, it's possible he was derived from Ugallu (see the -gal- in the name?), a lion-headed, bird-footed storm demon who held a blade and a mace and acted as an usher to the underworld. Of course Galamoth doesn't have a lion's head (bird feet, maybe), which means the -moth needs to be accounted for still. If you go back to Kid Dracula, aside from him looking like a Dragon Ball enemy, Galamoth had wings. Some of the legendary beasts alongside Ugallu were winged lion-dragons. Haven't come up with anything beyond that.
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: Gunlord on June 01, 2016, 09:45:15 PM
That looks an awful lot like some scenes from Berserk :o
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: Mooning Freddy on June 02, 2016, 10:37:48 AM
I love that painting too. It's a classic apocalypse depiction, Christian style. With heaven-hell war elements, skeletons killing everyone, the antichrist coming and all.
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: Eric Roman on June 03, 2016, 04:07:02 AM
Quote from: TheouAegis on June 01, 2016, 07:55:36 AM
While we're in the topic of Castlevania art, could this have been the inspiration of Legion?

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.knowla.org%2Fuploads%2F2%2FEncyclopedia%2Fpainting%2Fthumbs-lg%2Flg-judgement-day-1778.jpg&hash=04c9583ed6420db94434af6ad96caeefb26933df)
John McCrady's "Judgement Day" (1938)
Hellyeah, that Faloon is Gran...d.

As far as Galamoth, before I was aware of his Kid Dracula background, I considered him a Styracosaurus kinda guy, whereas I had found Slogra to be Coelurosaur/Coelophysis-ish Pterodactyloid until I learned in 2006 that the intention of Slogra's original Japanese name was writeplay on their Romanization of "Pelican".  (Science eventually continued to close the distance between birds and dinosaurs, thus redeeming the "Dinosaur Knight" assumption of Nintendo Power's Super NES Player's Guide which I'd sworn by ever since. :P ) 
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: zangetsu468 on June 03, 2016, 08:05:38 AM
Quote from: Gunlord on June 01, 2016, 09:45:15 PM
That looks an awful lot like some scenes from Berserk :o

Except in this red eclipse the demonic beings die.
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: theplottwist on June 03, 2016, 02:53:10 PM
Quote from: Eric Roman on June 03, 2016, 04:07:02 AM
Hellyeah, that Faloon is Gran...d.

As far as Galamoth, before I was aware of his Kid Dracula background, I considered him a Styracosaurus kinda guy, whereas I had found Slogra to be Coelurosaur/Coelophysis-ish Pterodactyloid until I learned in 2006 that the intention of Slogra's original Japanese name was writeplay on their Romanization of "Pelican".  (Science eventually continued to close the distance between birds and dinosaurs, thus redeeming the "Dinosaur Knight" assumption of Nintendo Power's Super NES Player's Guide which I'd sworn by ever since. :P )

What? Where did you learn that about Slogra?? WHERE?
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: TheouAegis on June 03, 2016, 04:23:31 PM
I can see the wordplay argument, but did Kurt actually have a source for that or was it just conjecture on his part? Or your part (and thus, did you actually have proof)?
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: Eric Roman on June 05, 2016, 03:28:39 AM
Here's the perspective-changing picture that came up during a discussion on the CVDF circa April 20, 2006:
(click to show/hide)
Slogra's Japanese name finally made sense once I caught the rough translation of the phrase in the red box.  In spite of its reptilian disposition--thick tail and clawed hands--I eventually conceded that, after all, the name of BERIGAN did not have its roots in the myths relative to Morrigan and Kerrigan...Konami was simply messing around with the writing for pelican as written in the Japanese script for foreign words; PERIKAN (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9A%E3%83%AA%E3%82%AB%E3%83%B3%E5%B1%9E) became BERIGAN. 

A short time afterward I hacked this together:
(click to show/hide)
:p

Hope that helps clear a few things up.  I'd love to see the rest of that page translated. 
And, hey, I found a link to the guide (http://g.e-hentai.org/g/837655/de38ff818c/), Akumajou Dracula no Subete, on what happens to be a very NSFW site. 

Now returning to your regularly scheduled discussion.  I hope. 
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: Nagumo on June 05, 2016, 06:05:57 AM
Apparently "beriberi" is a Japanese onomatopoeia for tearing or ripping. It's possible they combined this with "perikan" as some sort of pun. For one of the other enemies they used the Japanese equivalent for "thud" or "whack", so it's possible.
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: X on June 05, 2016, 02:39:32 PM
Eric Roman@

LOL.
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: Eric Roman on June 05, 2016, 05:13:00 PM
Quote from: Nagumo on June 05, 2016, 06:05:57 AM
Apparently "beriberi" is a Japanese onomatopoeia for tearing or ripping. It's possible they combined this with "perikan" as some sort of pun. For one of the other enemies they used the Japanese equivalent for "thud" or "whack", so it's possible.
 
That's an interesting insight.  I thought those features on the lower jaw resembled scraps of skin left behind from the "beak bag" having been torn off. 

('Til now I had carried "periperi" as the word for the rips, as it had been introduced by a moment of Yami to Boushi to Hon no Tabibitao (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-_HKE8ISvM) {4:20~5:12} in which a character's book-world is having pages torn from it.  "Periperi" is probably her childish way of saying it.) 
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: TheTextGuy on June 05, 2016, 08:41:23 PM
Quote from: X on June 05, 2016, 02:39:32 PM
Eric Roman@

LOL.

Jeez, as if Slorga wasn't frustrating enough.  If he was a giant pelican, I'm pretty sure I'd just quit too!
Title: Re: THAT Painting in Royal Chapel
Post by: zangetsu468 on June 06, 2016, 12:24:31 PM
Slogra and Launchpad had a common ancestor.. Their mother