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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => Hardcore Gaming 101 => Topic started by: Claimh Solais on December 13, 2016, 06:19:52 AM

Title: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Claimh Solais on December 13, 2016, 06:19:52 AM
I'm absolutely addicted to dungeon crawlers. Something about the exploration of them, finding secrets lying around, etc. just really is a lot of fun for me. So I wanted to know if anyone has any recommendations? Whether they be first-person, or like Diablo, or even like Metroid or IGAvanias, I'd definitely love to hear what they are. The only real ones I have on hand right now are Diablo 1 and Legend of Grimrock on PC, and Brandish: The Dark Revenant on PSP.

Bonus points if there's an auto-map that is updated as you explore, or if it's like Etrian Odyssey where you have to draw it as you explore. Not as much of a fan of the ones that don't have maps at all, but going back to the good ol' days of drawing your own maps on paper isn't bad at all!
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: X on December 13, 2016, 10:00:02 AM
Have you ever played Dungeon Master for the SNES? Give that one a shot, you might like it. It plays exactly like it's PC counterpart but has added stuff like music in certain segments. To this day though there are no maps and you might want to go online to look up spells if you can't figure them out on your own. If you have a PS 4 then I would also recommend getting Diablo III: ultimate evil edition. I've enjoyed the game and was entertained with the cinematic scenes that play after each major chapter. I especially loved Diablo's entrance. That was quite epic.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: BMC_War Machine on December 13, 2016, 02:59:51 PM
If you have a PS 4 then I would also recommend getting Diablo III: ultimate evil edition. I've enjoyed the game and was entertained with the cinematic scenes that play after each major chapter. I especially loved Diablo's entrance. That was quite epic.
Couldn't agree with this any more!  Diablo III is fantastic!  That was the only game besides Castlevania that i bought it on multiple systems i liked it so much lol.  It is a fairly long game as well, and the classes are fun in each of their own ways.  Usually i go for the barbarian style characters in these types of games, the up close hack n' slash types.  But my favorite class in D3 is the Witch Doctor.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Claimh Solais on December 13, 2016, 04:25:57 PM
Have you ever played Dungeon Master for the SNES? Give that one a shot, you might like it. It plays exactly like it's PC counterpart but has added stuff like music in certain segments. To this day though there are no maps and you might want to go online to look up spells if you can't figure them out on your own.

I've never even heard of this one. While I prefer having some maps handy, I got myself a graph-paper notebook for a reason! I'll make note of it.

If you have a PS 4 then I would also recommend getting Diablo III: ultimate evil edition. I've enjoyed the game and was entertained with the cinematic scenes that play after each major chapter. I especially loved Diablo's entrance. That was quite epic.

I do own this game on PS4, but I can't play my PS4 as its being borrowed by family right now, so I haven't really thrown any of my PS4 games onto the games I have handy. My PC ain't powerful enough to play the game, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: zangetsu468 on December 13, 2016, 05:45:02 PM
It may be pretty old school by now but I seem to recall Equinox for SNES was a DC.

Games like CV or Igavania, hmm Evo: Search for Eden is kind of like them, a platforming game with an interesting dynamic.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Claimh Solais on December 15, 2016, 01:55:47 AM
Equinox looks pretty neat. I might check that one out, too.

Evo: Search for Eden isn't really a dungeon-crawler, though. It is on my list of games I eventually plan to play, but not really what I'm looking for at the moment.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: X on December 15, 2016, 09:43:22 AM
EVO is an interesting game. It also has some sad moments in it too from a story point of view. One of Enix's little gems from back in the SNES era.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Jazz Paladin Productions on December 15, 2016, 10:05:06 AM
Baldur's Gate I and II are pretty cheap on Steam, easily some of the games with the most amount of replay and lots of territory to explore.


Lots of customization. Love the humor as well, one of the few games that made me laugh as hard as Psycho Mantis in MGS1 reading off of my memory card.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Ratty on December 15, 2016, 10:30:44 AM
I had so much fun with "Geneforge 1" a few months ago. Both a great dungeon crawl and an incredibly immersive RPG. All the more impressive for the lack of music and rather utilitarian graphics. I plan to play through the rest of the series to. All of Spiderweb Software's games (notably the Avernum & Avadon series, which are more traditional fantasy than Geneforge) have the reputation of great RPGs and dungeon crawls. Pretty much all of Spiderweb Software's games are available on gog and steam.

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Combat type: Turn-based tactical combat.

If you want a more pure dungeon crawl with no story or roleplaying to get in the way, you might want the Might & Magic 6 pack on Gog. All of the games except M&M1 have an automap (though you have to buy that function from a shop in M&M2) I believe that Might & Magic 4 and 5, which can be combined with each other to make one massive game called "The World of Xeen", is widely considered one of the best dungeon crawls ever. https://www.gog.com/game/might_and_magic_6_limited_edition (https://www.gog.com/game/might_and_magic_6_limited_edition)
Edit: some gameplay of M&M World of Xeen
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Combat type: Turn based and real time (I believe 3 - 6 are all real time)

There are a lot of other notable games in the genre (the Wizardry series, a lot of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Games) but I wouldn't recommend most of them until you've got more Dungeon Crawling experience.

If you're looking for a more story and roleplaying heavy RPG like the above mentioned Baldur's Gate games, you have to play Planescape Torment
https://www.gog.com/game/planescape_torment (https://www.gog.com/game/planescape_torment)
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Claimh Solais on December 16, 2016, 08:10:41 AM
I somehow forgot all about Baldur's Gate. I definitely need to pick those up! (I have BG1 on disc, along with its expansions, but installing old disc games is a pain in the ass)

Geneforge looks pretty cool. A lot of stuff going on on-screen but surprisingly easy for me to follow. Them being on GOG makes it tempting since I love that site.

And I can't believe I forgot about Might & Magic, too. I keep using those as an example of a first-person dungeon-crawler with my friends and still completely forget to grab 'em.

Good suggestions, everyone!
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Jazz Paladin Productions on December 16, 2016, 08:59:11 AM
FWIW , I still have the original BG game and discs as well. Agreed, it is a PITA to install these days, which is why I highly recommend the BG Enhanced Edition from Steam. Not only is it less of a hassle, it has better UI, Resolution, more quests, and characters, but perhaps also more importantly it's not so impossible to connect to other players any more for multi-player. It was such a nightmare to play with more than 1 person back when it came out. My wife and I played through the EE without a hitch at all.

I can't imagine how long it would take to do everything there is to do in the games, so much of what becomes available to do depends on the choices you make...

One of the reason I like the series so much is that the dungeons literally do feel like dungeons, full of peril, traps and you never know what's around the next corner...not too many games can get that feel just right.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Ratty on December 16, 2016, 09:14:50 AM
FWIW , I still have the original BG game and discs as well. Agreed, it is a PITA to install these days, which is why I highly recommend the BG Enhanced Edition from Steam. Not only is it less of a hassle, it has better UI, Resolution, more quests, and characters, but perhaps also more importantly it's not so impossible to connect to other players any more for multi-player. It was such a nightmare to play with more than 1 person back when it came out. My wife and I played through the EE without a hitch at all.

I can't imagine how long it would take to do everything there is to do in the games, so much of what becomes available to do depends on the choices you make...

One of the reason I like the series so much is that the dungeons literally do feel like dungeons, full of peril, traps and you never know what's around the next corner...not too many games can get that feel just right.

I believe if you buy the Enhanced Editions on Gog you get the original versions as an extra. So you can use original mods or not have to deal with the new characters added in the enhanced editions if you want to.

If you like Baldur's Gate do check out Planescape Torment which I linked earlier, they're both AD&D games that use the same engine but they're set in completely different worlds.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Jazz Paladin Productions on December 16, 2016, 09:27:13 AM
I forgot about Planescape!

If you are looking for something more "modern" than Baldur's Gate, I would also check out Pillars of Eternity , released in 2015. It was designed to be a spiritual successor to baldur's gate, and looks every bit the part.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: KaZudra on December 16, 2016, 10:13:53 AM
Ys.
Binding of Isaac rebirth.
Torchlight 1+2.

All potato friendly and have my badass seal of approval.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Jazz Paladin Productions on December 16, 2016, 10:16:22 AM
I've always wanted to play Y's ever since I saw it in Gamepro...I think I saw a turboduo review for it back in the magazine back in the day.

It's hard to know where to start these days, any suggestions Juz?
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Aridale on December 16, 2016, 05:01:03 PM
Play Ys then! Get the almost all of em are on Steam!
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Claimh Solais on December 16, 2016, 07:27:52 PM
I'd only really consider the old Ys games as dungeon crawlers, though. Basically everything pre-Ark of Napishtim.

I've always wanted to play Y's ever since I saw it in Gamepro...I think I saw a turboduo review for it back in the magazine back in the day.

It's hard to know where to start these days, any suggestions Juz?

Look no further than me. I'm a diehard Ys fan, pretty much played like every version of every game. lol

There are three different major types of Ys games. The classic bump-system ones, the frantic hack-and-slash ones, and the party-based action RPG ones. If we're talking purely Steam, you can't play the third kind, as they're relegated solely to Sony portable consoles (Ys Seven does have a PC port, but it's China-only).

The classic bump-system ones are where the series began. Ys I&II Chronicles+ on Steam contains both the first and second games in a bundle, since they're largely considered by the Ys fan-base to be a single game. They're great and a lot of good fun, but unless you're really into classic action RPGs, they're really hard to get into. The games are TOUGH, and Ys I's boss fights are pretty unforgiving.

The hack-and-slash ones consist of Ys VI: The Ark of Napishtim (2003), Ys: The Oath in Felghana (2005), and Ys Origin (2007). Ys VI is much slower-paced and more down to earth in comparison, and might actually be a really good one to get into the series with. The game is tough but at a more forgiving rate than Oath.

Oath is the one I got into the series with, and it's one of the best games I've ever played. It takes VI's gameplay and ramps it up to 11, though the game is significantly more unforgiving, as it completely removes healing items, making them simply item drops when killing an enemy. If the tough difficulty is deterring, I'd recommend starting off with VI, but if you're up for the challenge, then most definitely go for Oath.

(Origin is actually my favorite of the three hack-and-slash games, but considering you have to play the game three times so see the whole story and the extremely repetitive environments, it's hard for me to recommend it to someone who hasn't played Ys before)

All in all, I definitely recommend Ys VI: The Ark of Napishtim as a starting point, unless you want more of a challenge, then definitely go to Ys: The Oath in Felghana (though, why not both? They're both great games). Ys I&II Chronicles+ can deter people a bit with how difficult it is to find where to go sometimes, and the terrible boss fights in the first game, but they're still fun. And if you can manage to get through I (or choose to skip it), Ys II is definitely in my top 5 Ys games.

Here's some a lot of extra info if you're interested.
(click to show/hide)

Ys.
Binding of Isaac rebirth.
Torchlight 1+2.

All potato friendly and have my badass seal of approval.

I'll make note of these. Torchlight looks especially interesting. I've heard a lot of good about Binding of Isaac. It's on Vita, too, which makes it all the more interesting.

If the first huge chunk of my post hasn't already indicated, I'm already a huge fan of Ys. lol

I forgot about Planescape!

If you are looking for something more "modern" than Baldur's Gate, I would also check out Pillars of Eternity , released in 2015. It was designed to be a spiritual successor to baldur's gate, and looks every bit the part.

I heard about Pillars of Eternity. I checked it out and it does look really cool. Definitely wanna hit that one up.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Ratty on December 17, 2016, 01:37:38 AM
I'd only really consider the old Ys games as dungeon crawlers, though. Basically everything pre-Ark of Napishtim.

Look no further than me. I'm a diehard Ys fan, pretty much played like every version of every game. lol

There are three different major types of Ys games. The classic bump-system ones, the frantic hack-and-slash ones, and the party-based action RPG ones. If we're talking purely Steam, you can't play the third kind, as they're relegated solely to Sony portable consoles (Ys Seven does have a PC port, but it's China-only).

The classic bump-system ones are where the series began. Ys I&II Chronicles+ on Steam contains both the first and second games in a bundle, since they're largely considered by the Ys fan-base to be a single game. They're great and a lot of good fun, but unless you're really into classic action RPGs, they're really hard to get into. The games are TOUGH, and Ys I's boss fights are pretty unforgiving.

The hack-and-slash ones consist of Ys VI: The Ark of Napishtim (2003), Ys: The Oath in Felghana (2005), and Ys Origin (2007). Ys VI is much slower-paced and more down to earth in comparison, and might actually be a really good one to get into the series with. The game is tough but at a more forgiving rate than Oath.

Oath is the one I got into the series with, and it's one of the best games I've ever played. It takes VI's gameplay and ramps it up to 11, though the game is significantly more unforgiving, as it completely removes healing items, making them simply item drops when killing an enemy. If the tough difficulty is deterring, I'd recommend starting off with VI, but if you're up for the challenge, then most definitely go for Oath.

(Origin is actually my favorite of the three hack-and-slash games, but considering you have to play the game three times so see the whole story and the extremely repetitive environments, it's hard for me to recommend it to someone who hasn't played Ys before)

All in all, I definitely recommend Ys VI: The Ark of Napishtim as a starting point, unless you want more of a challenge, then definitely go to Ys: The Oath in Felghana (though, why not both? They're both great games). Ys I&II Chronicles+ can deter people a bit with how difficult it is to find where to go sometimes, and the terrible boss fights in the first game, but they're still fun. And if you can manage to get through I (or choose to skip it), Ys II is definitely in my top 5 Ys games.

Here's some a lot of extra info if you're interested.
(click to show/hide)

I'll make note of these. Torchlight looks especially interesting. I've heard a lot of good about Binding of Isaac. It's on Vita, too, which makes it all the more interesting.

If the first huge chunk of my post hasn't already indicated, I'm already a huge fan of Ys. lol

I heard about Pillars of Eternity. I checked it out and it does look really cool. Definitely wanna hit that one up.

Torchlight was developed by old Diablo devs who left Blizzard I believe.

I have the Ys games on steam but wish I had them on gog, since they've since come out on that platform which I prefer. I've beaten 1&2 and got to the end boss of 3. (Every time I hype myself up to try the boss I fire the game up- then have to sit through that long cutscene and by the end I'm like "eh, don't really feel like it anymore" been that way for years lol.) They're all good. Not so much the boss fights though, especially in the first 2. I remember the end boss in Ys 1 felt like it was about 80+% pure luck whether you'd beat him or not. And the other bosses were incredibly easy once you knew what to do. Minor gripe though, because the rest of the game(s) were rock solid.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Claimh Solais on December 17, 2016, 06:50:05 AM
I have the Ys games on steam but wish I had them on gog, since they've since come out on that platform which I prefer. I've beaten 1&2 and got to the end boss of 3. (Every time I hype myself up to try the boss I fire the game up- then have to sit through that long cutscene and by the end I'm like "eh, don't really feel like it anymore" been that way for years lol.) They're all good. Not so much the boss fights though, especially in the first 2. I remember the end boss in Ys 1 felt like it was about 80+% pure luck whether you'd beat him or not. And the other bosses were incredibly easy once you knew what to do. Minor gripe though, because the rest of the game(s) were rock solid.

I think the biggest problem I have with the final boss of 3 (assuming we're talking Oath here) is that aside from the EXTREMELY long pre-battle cutscene (fully voice acted in the PSP version which made it less boring to sit through) is that he has THREE forms. I had a lot of fun in that final battle (I was playing it in class when I really shouldn't have been, lol), but man, it felt like it went on forever.

Ys II's boss fights, to me at least, were really fun. I liked the whole concept of having a shootout and having to dodge enemy attacks. The final battle in that felt weird to me since you had to use your sword now. Ys I's boss fights were horribly designed though. They're not even fun. Vagullion (vampire bat in the mines) in particular was one I hated when I first played it, but I found out he's pretty easy, just a horribly long test of patience. Jenocres (first boss) is the only one I absolutely hate because of the fact that I'm pretty sure it's impossible without taking damage or waiting a very long time. (Ys Origin completely redid all the Ys I & II boss fights and made them so much better)

Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: X on December 17, 2016, 12:13:57 PM
Claimh Solais@

For me it's the opposite. But I guess that's because I started with Oath. Oath I found good to play and didn't find it hard utill I started the new games while trying out difficulty options. I stopped after the fourth attempt because it was getting too hard  :P  Ys VI on the other hand I have found to be difficult. I've yet to finish it because there's no map system as there was with Oath. I understand that this was remedied in the re-release on Steam, however I've been playing the PS2 (original) version. That, and it takes me longer to grind in Ys VI then in Oath.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Claimh Solais on December 17, 2016, 03:18:09 PM
Claimh Solais@

For me it's the opposite. But I guess that's because I started with Oath. Oath I found good to play and didn't find it hard utill I started the new games while trying out difficulty options. I stopped after the fourth attempt because it was getting too hard  :P  Ys VI on the other hand I have found to be difficult. I've yet to finish it because there's no map system as there was with Oath. I understand that this was remedied in the re-release on Steam, however I've been playing the PS2 (original) version. That, and it takes me longer to grind in Ys VI then in Oath.

Actually, the PS2 version isn't the original, but the PC version. XSEED only re-released it and updated it for modern systems. The PS2 version was actually a port by Konami, and featured some pretty awful voice acting.

But I sorta get your point. I just never found Ys VI to be as hard. In some ways it was, but that's simply because it's an older game. You have less maneuverability due to the inability to sprint or double jump, for example.

Worth mentioning though, I personally found the PS2 version of the game to be really difficult, but I got through the PC version pretty decently (still died a lot, but not nearly as much). I don't know if there's actual difficulty changes between the two versions, but yeah. The PS2 version does have a little bit of extra content, though, and Adol's appearance changes depending on the equipped armor.

It's also quicker to grind in Oath because there aren't any EXP modifiers in Ys VI, as far as I remember. Consecutive hits in Oath increase an EXP modifier, so that you can get up to x2 EXP from enemy kills, as long as the bar doesn't deplete.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: theANdROId on December 18, 2016, 05:57:52 PM
I guess it's not exactly a dungeon crawler, but maybe kinda...?  I really like "Shoot First (http://teknopants.com/2011/05/shoot-first/)"
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Claimh Solais on December 18, 2016, 06:07:59 PM
The map makes it look dungeon-crawly to me. And hey, it's free, so why not? lol
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: zangetsu468 on December 18, 2016, 06:09:35 PM
Even though FFXII has open world environments, it's a pretty darn good DC
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: theANdROId on December 18, 2016, 07:38:49 PM
For anyone that does try Shoot First, I highly recommend using the mouse to shoot...first.  :-)
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Ratty on December 19, 2016, 03:00:00 PM
I guess I might as well go ahead and add some more big games in the Dungeon Crawl genre that are readily available-

All of the games in Gog's Forgotten Realms compilation are dungeon crawls.
https://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_one (https://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_one)
https://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_two (https://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_two)
https://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_three (https://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_three)

Collection one: The "Eye of the Beholder Trilogy", basically these are clones of the game "Dungeon Master" but using the AD&D license and rule set. There is no auto mapper but a 3rd party auto mapper exists for the first two games. It doesn't work on the 3rd game basically just because the developer of the utility doesn't like that one. So far as I can tell. http://personal.inet.fi/koti/jhirvonen/ase/ (http://personal.inet.fi/koti/jhirvonen/ase/) The first 2 Eye of the Beholder games were developed by Westwood Studios and are what put them on the map, prior to the release of their revolutionary RTS game "Command & Conquer".

Collection two: The venerable "Gold Box" series of AD&D games, this release includes all of the games released in the Forgotten Realms AD&D campaign setting. Including "Unlimited Adventures", the latest version of the engine which gives you access to dozens and dozens of fan made adventures, including full conversions of the first 2 games in the series, allowing you to play a version of them with mouse support. Originally designed for the Commadore64, the interface is clunky by today's standards. Movement in the tactical combat screen is accomplished on the numeric keypad, for instance. And as I mentioned, the 1st 2 games do not have mouse support so it takes some getting used to the interface in those. If you decide to play these I highly recommend using the 3rd party "Gold Box Companion" program http://personal.inet.fi/koti/jhirvonen/gbc/ (http://personal.inet.fi/koti/jhirvonen/gbc/) the Gold Box companion not only adds an automapper, but an extremely useful bar which displays your party's HP and status at all times during combat. As well as other extremely useful features which make the games easier to play today. You can transfer characters from one game to the next in this series. The other Gold box AD&D games, the Krynn (DragonLance) series, basically requires you do this https://www.gog.com/game/dungeons_dragons_krynn_series (https://www.gog.com/game/dungeons_dragons_krynn_series)

Collection three: "Menzoberranzan", a dungeon crawl using the same engine as the two Ravenloft games https://www.gog.com/game/dungeons_dragons_ravenloft_series (https://www.gog.com/game/dungeons_dragons_ravenloft_series) I believe Menzo is the last in the series, and that your party (or rather, the two characters you created, not any NPCs you picked up) can be transferred through all 3.

"Dungeon Hack" a fully customizable randomly generated dungeon crawl. No real story, just you, an automap, and a randomly generated dungeon of varying difficulty and length to be determined by you. I believe it uses a modified version of the "Eye of the Beholder" engine.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Aridale on December 20, 2016, 04:04:51 PM
Ill tell ya this... If youve never played the Goldbox games... Some of em are fan...tastic! Pool of Radiance is one of my fav games ever
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Claimh Solais on December 20, 2016, 05:47:18 PM
Ill tell ya this... If youve never played the Goldbox games... Some of em are fan...tastic! Pool of Radiance is one of my fav games ever

I haven't played any of them, no. But I have been watching ProJared play some of them, and they do look really fun. Pool of Radiance looks awesome, actually. Probably worth grabbing its collection just for that one.

Dungeon Hack also looks like a lot of good fun. A good game to sink some time into every now and again.
Title: Re: Any dungeon-crawler recommendations?
Post by: Ratty on December 20, 2016, 08:11:41 PM
Ill tell ya this... If youve never played the Goldbox games... Some of em are fan...tastic! Pool of Radiance is one of my fav games ever

I haven't played any of them, no. But I have been watching ProJared play some of them, and they do look really fun. Pool of Radiance looks awesome, actually. Probably worth grabbing its collection just for that one.

Dungeon Hack also looks like a lot of good fun. A good game to sink some time into every now and again.

I've played maybe a 3rd of the way into PoR a few months ago. I should go back and finish it. The mechanics are solid and it's a challenging game. I made the characters in my game a crossover between "The Slayers" and "Star Trek" franchise, because if you're gonna nerd out you should go all the way. Lina Inverse, Gourry Gabriev and Zelgadis have teamed up with Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock and Dr. McCoy to try and help out New Phlan. I don't imagine any of them really understand what's going on. Kirk and Spock will be especially clueless if I transfer the other characters to "Curse of the Azure Bonds" since they'll have to be remade as human Rangers rather than the Half-Elf cleric/fighter/magic-users they are right now. Zelgadis is a dwarf fighter-thief so I'll have to decide whether I want to make a human thief or a Paladin next time. Either way, will have to be a different character. Hmm, William Riker maybe? Or maybe I'll just make Naga the Serpent, another Magic-User. Twice the fireballs, twice the fun!