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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Super Waffle on January 15, 2017, 05:26:45 PM

Title: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: Super Waffle on January 15, 2017, 05:26:45 PM
We know the games make a big deal out of Dracula being the Lord of All Darkness and whatever, but... where's good old Lucifer in all of this? Doesn't anyone care about him anyone?
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: theplottwist on January 15, 2017, 05:40:30 PM
We know the games make a big deal out of Dracula being the Lord of All Darkness and whatever, but... where's good old Lucifer in all of this? Doesn't anyone care about him anyone?

Dracula is what would equate to Lucifer/Satan on the old canon. If there is a Lucifer (a sword named after him appears on Lament) or a Satan, they're below Dracula on the ranking of threats.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: TheouAegis on January 15, 2017, 07:36:48 PM
Except for some of the later games, whoever said Lucifer even exists in the CV universe? He's in Lords of Shadow, but that's a reboot series. And there's even debate within Judeo-Christian studies over whether there even is a demon called Lucifer/Satan. Some say Lucifer was a mistranslation and just a reference to an ancient king. As for Satan, it's argued that Satan is a class of angel or a job title and not necessarily a demon. Most of the demons people even know of were Sumerian deities, not Judeo-Christian deities. If there can be only one god above all, then all other gods must be delegated to demon or angel status. So there's no need for Satan/Lucifer to even be in Castlevania as anything special, because he's not.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 15, 2017, 08:20:30 PM
One of the things I liked about Dawn of Sorrow was Celia's views and how, ultimately, they are subverted.

Celia believed that for God to be good, he must be opposed by a being of perfect evil, but Dawn of Sorrow spends much of the game proving her wrong, mostly by arguing that such a perfectly being doesn't and shouldn't exist at all. The closest thing we come to seeing a truly perfectly evil villain in the series is probably Menace in the same game, which is fitting, as its an artificial distilling of every single monster in (the fake) Dracula's Castle at that time into a single form.

There is no Satan or Lucifer in Castlevania because the only force that would go so far as to create such a being are humans. With very specific (potential) exceptions for the crap pulled by Death in canon (and it should be said we don't really know all that much about his original motivations or purpose), every act of evil in Castlevania is perpetrated in some way by humans. Even Walter, the progenitor villain of the franchise, began as a human. And my example of a perfectly evil being, Menace, was the result of a strictly human endeavor.

The closest thing in the series to a proper "Devil figure" would be Chaos, which on top of being a total plot cop out is left very much unexplained. We know Chaos can influence people very strongly, and we know that the Castle is something of an Earthly manifestation of it, but unlike in Lords of Shadow 2's Inner Dracula, we don't really know if Chaos is even intelligent or sapient, or indeed whether or not it is serving a purpose intended for it by God himself. It may easily by that Chaos is doing exactly what God means it to do, essentially helping to bring the "impurities" on man to the surface to be worked out, like silver.

But, in light of the answers we concretely have and the vagueries of everything else, I conclude that the universe doesn't need a special opposing force to God. It already has us, and according to Castlevania, we do a fine enough job of it ourselves.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: mgfcortez on January 15, 2017, 08:37:16 PM
when i was going to do my fan game the last boss would be the devil you find out that really death was the devil working behind Dracula because the devil couldn't act on human kind because God would act so he used humans because they have free will and made a pact with Dracula cause of his loss of his wife and he hated God for it he was easy to control and God would not act because of free will so he could take over the world thew his puppet Dracula and the Belmont's played into his hand as well by putting a human soul in the whip they also gave evil the power to rise every 100 years and bring Dracula back that's just a quick over version of it would had been a lot more story but gave up 
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 15, 2017, 08:42:38 PM
when i was going to do my fan game the last boss would be the devil you find out that really death was the devil working behind Dracula because the devil couldn't act on human kind because God would act so he used humans because they have free will and made a pact with Dracula cause of his loss of his wife and he hated God for it he was easy to control and God would not act because of free will so he could take over the world thew his puppet Dracula and the Belmont's played into his hand as well by putting a human soul in the whip they also gave evil the power to rise every 100 years and bring Dracula back that's just a quick over version of it would had been a lot more story but gave up

That's... fine I suppose. And VERY short on punctuation marks. Seriously, that was physically painful to read without punctuation. But fan game plots also don't factor into the canon. Generally.

....PUNCTUATION!!! *shakes fists*
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: theplottwist on January 16, 2017, 01:20:56 AM
Celia believed that for God to be good, he must be opposed by a being of perfect evil, but Dawn of Sorrow spends much of the game proving her wrong, mostly by arguing that such a perfectly being doesn't and shouldn't exist at all. The closest thing we come to seeing a truly perfectly evil villain in the series is probably Menace in the same game, which is fitting, as its an artificial distilling of every single monster in (the fake) Dracula's Castle at that time into a single form.

In fact, Celia appears to have a point. If we are to believe what she says, she explains that "the power of the Demon Realm is getting weaker" due to the lack of a Demon King to control it. Arikado, at the end, says that the Demon King is indeed the opposite of God (What God?) and that it may be necessary -- i just doesn't have to be Soma.

The game doesn't tell you what this means or how does "the power of the Demon Realm getting weaker" factor on there being a perfectly good God or not, but the ending does imply that the battle for the throne is still on, but that Soma doesn't have to actually take part on it.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 16, 2017, 05:10:01 AM
the Demon King is indeed the opposite of God (What God?)

God in the traditional sense I've assumed. After all the Belmont arsenal of weapons with the VK at the helm can mostly be considered Holy.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: X on January 16, 2017, 06:08:52 AM
In the original Castlevania, before IGA added to it, there was no Satan/Lucifer figure as the embodiment of all evil. Dracula took on that role and that was fine by me. It didn't need to be any deeper then that. It worked. It's what made the series a classic to begin with. Dracula was the top villain; the head honcho. The very thing that cults craved and innocent peoples' feared. Then we have the heroes representing God and humanity; The Belmont family. The occasional sidekick would partake in the hunt along with said Belmont, but in the end the Belmonts would always conquer Dracula's evil with good. And the Vampirekiller "mystic whip" was not some alchemical creation with a tainted soul, but a holy relic to be wielded in their never-ending crusade against Dracula's evil. It didn't need to be anything more then that.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 16, 2017, 06:20:40 AM
In the original Castlevania, before IGA added to it, there was no Satan/Lucifer figure as the embodiment of all evil. Dracula took on that role and that was fine by me. It didn't need to be any deeper then that. It worked. It's what made the series a classic to begin with. Dracula was the top villain; the head honcho. The very thing that cults craved and innocent peoples' feared. Then we have the heroes representing God and humanity; The Belmont family. The occasional sidekick would partake in the hunt along with said Belmont, but in the end the Belmonts would always conquer Dracula's evil with good. And the Vampirekiller "mystic whip" was not some alchemical creation with a tainted soul, but a holy relic to be wielded in their never-ending crusade against Dracula's evil. It didn't need to be anything more then that.

Hang on. Wasn't Satan's Ring in one of the Igavanias incorrectly translated from "Dark Lord's Ring" in the Japanese version? (or something to this effect).

I also don't actually believe that Chaos, by nature is "inherently evil", it's simply chaos. It can be an influencing factor in people committing evil deeds (like the virgin sacrifice at the start of Rondo), however, it is the men themselves who crave evil - and Chaos itself is augmented in the heart of man approximately every 100 years (with enough poetic license to make it give or take a decade or so) which leads to a chain of events causing Dracula's resurrection.

The biggest example of Chaos itself not being "pure, unmotivated evil" lies with Mathias. Mathias committed evil deeds against Leon and Sara, that was wrong (similar to what Griffith did in Berserk, only probably not as bad) but he did this to curse God. He wanted to reject God and live forever. It was only after the humans burned Lisa that he started waging his war against humanity.

Although CV's God I do see in the traditional sense, I think it's more of a balancing act between God and Chaos from a more holistic perspective. Alucard says something to this effect in AoS or DoS, that for God to be good "evil"(Chaos) has to exist.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: theplottwist on January 16, 2017, 06:25:37 AM
God in the traditional sense I've assumed. After all the Belmont arsenal of weapons with the VK at the helm can mostly be considered Holy.

I'll try not diving too much on the theology of Castlevania because I don't fully understand it and this is not the appropriate thread:

Looking through the canon, as it stands today, it is clear to me (TO ME) that the christian god is not the top god. It looks more like there is a pantheon of gods working independently from each other, and that "Holy" is an energy channeled from them by their believers/related symbols on Earth. The Vampire Killer channels holy from the christian god (maybe, but let's keep it at this for the sake of this response), Claimh Solais channels holy from whatever Irish god it belonged to/made it, the Vhibuti draws holy from the hindu gods, the Agunea from the Slavic heaven, etc etc.

And that's not getting to the part where it was a ceremony chanelling power from Shinto gods the thing to finally deal with Dracula and his castle.

It seems to me that, when the character talks about the Demon King being the opposite of God, they are giving more a description based on what they personally believe than what it really is. The Demon King may aswell be the enemy of the entire holy pantheon, but the character calls it "God" in reference to one single god because that's what they believe in. The Belmonts are clearly catholic and may be drawing their holy power from the christian god, but there are more "holy" being drawn by different people of different beliefs on the CV world. And we know the christian god is not a fan of polytheism. (http://biblehub.com/exodus/20-3.htm)

Castlevania may be a case of All Myths Are True. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllMythsAreTrue) In this case, on the CV universe, you play by X god's rules, and in return this god grants you holy power to fight evil.

EDIT: I know Mathias declaring war against god will come up, but you have to understand that Mathias is coming from the exact same place as everyone else: his own beliefs. Him as Dracula may have become a threat to all that is holy, and not just the god he believes in.

It's like when people blame "corruption" or "injustice" for the society's shortcomings as if these two concepts were a single entity to be targeted, when in fact these faceless concepts are being run by quite a large number of very specific issues/people/smaller institutions.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 16, 2017, 06:52:52 AM
Castlevania may be a case of All Myths Are True. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllMythsAreTrue) In this case, on the CV universe, you play by X god's rules, and in return this god grants you holy power to fight evil.

It's possible that it plays by the 'all beliefs' card, as do other franchises such as God of War.

EDIT: I know Mathias declaring war against god will come up, but you have to understand that Mathias is coming from the exact same place as everyone else: his own beliefs. Him as Dracula may have become a threat to all that is holy, and not just the god he believes in.

The Mathias scenario still works though, as he and Leon were Catholic. Mathias' revenge against God was the God he believed in. Mathias' fall from grace parallels Lucifer's fall from grace. Different people believe in different gods, each game has its own context. 

Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: SecretWeapon on January 16, 2017, 09:17:58 AM
Idk about you but i understood DoS plot as "Yeah God wont be perfectly good but we can deal with that" not as "Celia is wrong"
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: X on January 16, 2017, 03:57:44 PM
Quote
Hang on. Wasn't Satan's Ring in one of the Igavanias incorrectly translated from "Dark Lord's Ring" in the Japanese version? (or something to this effect).

There was no satan's ring in the original Castlevania. There was Dracula's ring in CV II but it wasn't satan's ring.

Quote
I also don't actually believe that Chaos, by nature is "inherently evil", it's simply chaos.

And that is exactly what Chaos is; The opposite to Order. Both exists simultaneously in our universe. Chaos is not evil nor is Order good. Both are merely opposites to one-another, yet both are absolutely necessary for the existence and continuation of our universe. Sadly many CV fans don't understand this as due to translation errors in the IGA games. It wasn't made clear and so they think that the final boss in AoS is Chaos itself. In truth it's not. It is a Chaotic creature, but not Chaos itself as it is absolutely impossible to see pure Chaos let alone destroy pure Chaos. If it was Chaos that was destroyed in AoS then the universe in which the series takes place in would no longer exist. It would literally collapse into nothing due to imbalance.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: AlexCalvo on January 16, 2017, 04:45:29 PM
There are certainly devil-like beings in the Castlevania universe, being references as early as Cv3, when the manual says that Dracula made a pact with an ancient evil deity.  Now Lucifer himself?  Never really referenced, I always liked the idea that he was a fallen angel who became the dark lord previously to Dracula, but that is just my head canon.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 16, 2017, 11:26:16 PM
There was no satan's ring in the original Castlevania. There was Dracula's ring in CV II but it wasn't satan's ring.
I thought in one of the English versions of Igavanias (DoS maybe) that there was an item called "Satan's ring" which was incorrectly translated, and the figure the Japanese decription referred to was Dracula.

And that is exactly what Chaos is; The opposite to Order. Both exists simultaneously in our universe. Chaos is not evil nor is Order good. Both are merely opposites to one-another, yet both are absolutely necessary for the existence and continuation of our universe. Sadly many CV fans don't understand this as due to translation errors in the IGA games. It wasn't made clear and so they think that the final boss in AoS is Chaos itself. In truth it's not. It is a Chaotic creature, but not Chaos itself as it is absolutely impossible to see pure Chaos let alone destroy pure Chaos. If it was Chaos that was destroyed in AoS then the universe in which the series takes place in would no longer exist. It would literally collapse into nothing due to imbalance.

I always assumed it was Chaos, as in "Chaos manifested". I see Chaos as energy, it can't be destroyed in the traditional sense, but it can assume different forms and manifest accordingly (whether it's within the heart of men, Dracula, or what Soma fights in AoS, etc)

Cv3, when the manual says that Dracula made a pact with an ancient evil deity.  Now Lucifer himself?  Never really referenced

Imo the ancient evil deity is Death. This also works if you subscribe to the LOI Manga.
I personally believe Mathias made a pact with him in exchange for the Crimson Stone.

Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: theplottwist on January 16, 2017, 11:32:44 PM
I thought in one of the English versions of Igavanias (DoS maybe) that there was an item called "Satan's ring" which was incorrectly translated, and the figure the Japanese decription referred to was Dracula.

That is indeed the case, yes. The ring called "Satan's Ring" is in fact referring to Dracula, and not to "Satan". The translators didn't quite catch on what was happening and invented a Satan for the ring to belong to.

Hell, on the ring's first appearance on AoS, it's even modelled after a bat motif. Who would the owner of this ring be??
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 16, 2017, 11:43:02 PM
Hell

I see what you did there  ;D

on the ring's first appearance on AoS, it's even modelled after a bat motif. Who would the owner of this ring be??

Meryl Streep in The Devil wears Prada???
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on January 17, 2017, 03:38:25 AM
Hell, on the ring's first appearance on AoS, it's even modelled after a bat motif. Who would the owner of this ring be??

IGA hyuk hyuk hyuk
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: chainsawmidget on January 17, 2017, 04:28:57 AM
Considering the series has demons, and angels, and that holy water and crosses actually do something, i see no reason why there shouldn't be a devil. 

That doesn't mean he's a major player or even involved though.  Maybe he just saw Drac trying to make a bad world filled with evil and thought, "hey, this guy's doing alright.  I'll just sit back and work on my fiddle playing skills."  Of course he could be working behind the scenes, pulling strings here and there, making sure the right evil beings show up and giving Dracula the occasional spooky whisper of advise. 

Also just because Dracula is referred to as the Master of All Evil Chaos boss not Nice guy doesn't mean he actually IS the real top dog.  Just that he's the most powerful that people have seen. 
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: X on January 17, 2017, 05:45:13 AM
Or Dracula could have completely circumvented the devil's power long ago and simply took over as the supreme embodiment of all that is evil. Like what happened with Satan's former pet-turned traitor, malebolgia, in the Spawn series. Hence the reason why there's no Satan in the original CV and why God has chosen the Belmonts to fight for him.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: Dracula9 on January 17, 2017, 12:40:25 PM
IGA hyuk hyuk hyuk
(click to show/hide)

I never knew IGA was a practicioner of metallurgy! That's fuckin' rad!
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: Kaneda on January 18, 2017, 05:50:00 AM
Considering the series has demons, and angels, and that holy water and crosses actually do something, i see no reason why there shouldn't be a devil. 

That doesn't mean he's a major player or even involved though.  Maybe he just saw Drac trying to make a bad world filled with evil and thought, "hey, this guy's doing alright.  I'll just sit back and work on my fiddle playing skills." 

^This.

I always worked under the assumption that Satan existed within the CV lore, even though he has no explicit role within the plots. I saw Satan as the evil coach, with Dracula as the team captain. He's not on the field, but he still plays a part in the game. Same dynamic with God and the Belmonts.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: theplottwist on January 18, 2017, 06:07:24 AM
OK people look...

I know some of you don't take the "Dracula is the incarnation of evil" talk seriously (as seriously as a work of fiction can go, at least), and I don't want to come off as incredibly arrogant or pompous/smug, but:

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FinYPiSM.png&hash=9429771069db8ca7ab9325f541befd860395e3c2)

This is not an NPC telling us what he thinks. This is not Alucard surmising what Dracula might or not be. This is a manual telling the player what Dracula is and how evil he can be.

I'm not even saying there isn't a Satan or a Lucifer. I'm just saying that if there is one (or both), they certainly are not pulling any strings on Dracula.

(I'm even gonna check the japanese one too, JUST to be sure)

EDIT: Checked. It says basically the same thing. Here is the text in copiable format for your fact-checking shenanigans:
悪魔城の城主であり、すべての邪悪の根源。
冷酷無比だが王族ならではの気品と優雅さを兼ね備えている。

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRpKnMgr.png&hash=56a9c19244b497ce90e98171f6de3c111c98808b)

Or Dracula could have completely circumvented the devil's power long ago and simply took over as the supreme embodiment of all that is evil. Like what happened with Satan's former pet-turned traitor, malebolgia, in the Spawn series. Hence the reason why there's no Satan in the original CV and why God has chosen the Belmonts to fight for him.

Which I find to be a much more agreeable assumption. If a Demon King is needed, then there should have been one previous to Dracula. Dawn of Sorrow shows that 36 years of time is enough for the Demon Realm to weaken and need a new master (if Celia is to be believed). Then, either Dracula usurped/destroyed the previous Demon King, or he was destroyed just before Dracula took over.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 18, 2017, 09:18:22 AM
I actually have to reconsider my previous post saying that Mathias made a pact with Death. First of all, Death isn't inherently evil, he is actually a divine being, which I believe Leon mentions in LoI. Secondly, the bestiary describes him as:

"A being that hunts souls. Loyal to the master of the Crimson Stone."

Therefore although the manga states that Walter made a pact with Death (somewhat backed up by Walter exclaiming Death's betrayal after his own defeat) Death actually serves Mathias due to the CS. It's already known that Dracula has had dominion over angelic and holy beings, but Death willingly serves him.

I've thought about this carefully, and it's obvious Mathias in LOI wants to defy God by being granted eternal life via the CS. However, I used to think (in my own head canon) Mathias could have made a pact with Satan for the CS (later completed with the absorbing of Walter's soul), however, there's nothing to indicate that Mathias/ Dracula made any such pact until Lisa was executed, which then coincides with CVIII's description of said pact.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: Dracula9 on January 18, 2017, 10:41:57 AM
Disclaimer: Note that I will put "good" and "evil" in quotes almost exclusively, due to the dichotomous nature of the terms as I'm discussing and referring to them. Bear that in mind.

General personal thoughts:

-Demon King is a title and rank, not a singular one-time being.

-Christian God plays a decently-sized role in CV lore, but is clearly not defined as the sole deity in existence in the universe. Therefore, it's not particularly prudent to take many major Biblical stories and assume they're true in the world of CV. Hell, I could even make a case that, since a lot of Christianity descends from Jewish roots, that as per the Jewish faith under Jehova's rule there IS no Hell as Christianity defines it. No Hell, no single angel-that-fell Satan.

-Pretty much all references to Satan as the singular being we all know him as are the fault of mistranslations.

Personal headcanon:

-The title of Demon King is a divine role, much like Death's. By this, I draw upon the dichotomy that good cannot exist without evil as a reference of the inverse, much how light cannot exist with darkness. To this end, I consider the Demon Realm/Chaos/whatever one wishes to call it to be a very tangible location much like the Heavens of the many deities we see in the lore. Such a realm would need a ruler, and that ruler holds the title of Demon King. Perhaps there was a Satan or Lucifer or Samael holding power there are one point, prior to Dracula's claiming of the rank. As we see in Dawn, it is a role that must be fulfilled for the realm to exist properly, which I feel lends credence to the notion that it is a divine realm and role that exists as a counterbalance to the realms and roles of what is considered "good." Should such a Satan or Devil have existed within the lore and universe, I doubt very highly that he was in any way commanding or otherwise influencing Dracula.

-Death's relationship to Dracula, or more specifically the Crimson Stone, comes from a very simple concept--the Crimson Stone grants fabulous dark powers, with its owners pretty much guaranteed to perform "evil" acts with it. Such acts would naturally result in people dying in large numbers, something I'm sure Death has a very high investment in. Therefore, I consider his attachment to Dracula to be predominantly one of "okay, whoever holds the Stone is gonna probably kill a shitload of people, and this Dracula dude's been doing a damn fine job of that for centuries, so if I hang with him I'll have lots of work!" Their implied friendship/acquaintance I'm sure simply developed as a natural byproduct of the time they've spent in collusion. Pacts can be made with Death without the Stone, but in those cases it simply becomes a matter of Death siding with the highest bidder--canonically, Walter seems to have some kind of deal with him, but Death abandons it the instant a more promising partner/master shows up, Mathias.

-The Crimson Stone is essentially a form of the Philosopher's Stone that grants the legendary powers of it in a way humans wouldn't even consider as valid due to its "evil" connotations (I am paraphrasing the ever-loving SHIT out of this headcanon, as I can very literally explain on it in borderline-disgusting detail for HOURS on end--Plot can confirm this). Consider that the historical Stone is always described as granting amazing powers and immortality. Well, what does vampirism do if not exactly those things? But since vampires are considered evil, then human alchemists such as Rinaldo would look at the effects of the Crimson Stone and go "no, that's just a bastardized failure, there's no WAY that thing can be a true Stone," despite it granting a form of the exact abilities humans claim it to possess. Since I assume this to be the case, then that makes the Crimson Stone something that requires ingredients and a recipe, therefore it is something that must be WANTED to be made. Ergo, someone WANTS to make such a stone, therefore WANTING what it gives, therefore see above about Death and why I feel his attachment to the Stone's owner to be as it is.

As for how all these tie together to relate to the OP topic:

-The Devil as we know him may or may not have ever truly existed in Castlevania. There doesn't seem to be much concrete canon evidence declaring as such, with "Devils" being relegated to simple powerful demons bearing the name, rather than there being a single "true" Devil. If he had existed, it doesn't seem to be the case anymore, or at the very least he does not exist in his seat of usual power.

-The title of Demon King appears very strongly to be one of rank and power, rather than a singular being like Satan. Since it's such a title and rank, it can change hands and be usurped by stronger entities. It also appears that such a leader is required for the corresponding Realm to be whole and functional, thus further signifying that there doesn't seem to be a universal all-powerful evil entity like Satan in control of it at all times.

-Since the title of Demon King seems to be a temporary title that can be usurped by a more powerful willing being, I think it's fair to assume that Dracula has all but filled and maintained that role for a millennium with no candidates stronger than him showing up to take it from him. Since that's true, I would imagine that, if a Satan still existed, he would've been trying to reclaim that power in Dracula's many naptimes. Since this doesn't appear to be the case, I believe it can be reasonably inferred that regardless of whether or not Satan as we know him in Christianity ever even existed and held power in CV lore, that mantle is now held by Dracula alone. Nothing else "evil" has ever successfully usurped him or his seat as Demon King, the Belmonts seem to have been selected as God's Chosen warriors to combat this force of unrivaled evil and darkness, Dracula bears explicit weaknesses to Church and other holy symbols and effigies (arguably beyond even the traditional threshold of vampire weaknesses, as Dracula has transcended far beyond an ordinary vampire at this point, and is more a dark force of nature due to his heavy involvement with Chaos to such a point that calling him just a vampire would almost be an insult) that aren't necessarily even Christian in nature. If he displays vulnerabilities to holy elements from faiths other than Christianity, it would suggest that his alignment exceeds simply that of the Christian Devil and puts him more on par with that of a universally wicked force that opposes ALL that is divine and "good."

-In sum, if there were a role which we could consider that of Satan, then Dracula's taken it over and had it for a very long time. As far as the CV universe and lore goes, Dracula more or less IS the Devil of the world. He obtains the necessary title of Demon King, holds it unchallenged for a thousand years, and when he's destroyed for good nothing seems to jump in and take his place for almost four decades--suggesting that he either did a damn fine job of clearing the playing field, enslaved any competitors to his will and slew those who would not comply (or in the case of the only KNOWN would-be usurper of the mantle of Demon King/Dark Lord, Galamoth, confined them within the Castle and the heroes killed them), or simply left such a mark on the other denizens of the Demon Realm that even after his "true" death in 1999, his residual power in the DLCs and Soma was enough to strike fear into the Realm's hearts as to just another delayed resurrection, and stay them from trying to take over.

So the TL;DR of all this is that, as far as the lore and canon seem to suggest, Dracula is basically the Devil in the CV universe now, regardless of whether or not the Christian one existed prior to him.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: zangetsu468 on January 19, 2017, 12:51:02 PM
As for how all these tie together to relate to the OP topic:

-The Devil as we know him may or may not have ever truly existed in Castlevania. There doesn't seem to be much concrete canon evidence declaring as such, with "Devils" being relegated to simple powerful demons bearing the name, rather than there being a single "true" Devil. If he had existed, it doesn't seem to be the case anymore, or at the very least he does not exist in his seat of usual power.

Maybe not, but there is still some strong and suggestive occult symbology as chronologically early as LOI
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/castlevania/images/5/54/Lament_of_Innocence_-_Castle_Entrance_-_02.png/revision/latest?cb=20150927221843 (http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/castlevania/images/5/54/Lament_of_Innocence_-_Castle_Entrance_-_02.png/revision/latest?cb=20150927221843)

However, even so I have to admit the way I view God and any sort of devil in the CV universe is in a more idealistic sense, the way this thread has been discussing Chaos. i.e. God is the righteousness within men which is everywhere, Chaos is also everywhere but can have the opposite influence on mankind. I don't see the two ideals as beings sitting on thrones in heaven/ hell. If anything that being is Dracula.

-The title of Demon King appears very strongly to be one of rank and power, rather than a singular being like Satan. Since it's such a title and rank, it can change hands and be usurped by stronger entities.

Much like Galamoth tries to do. (It's interesting that he comes from so far in the future to try his hand, thinking he will succeed.)

Another fascinating tidbit I wanted to mention is regarding Death, I just had an idea, it relates back to an older thread or possibly more than one where the "Master" of Walter's Castle was brought up. http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,7631.15.html (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,7631.15.html)
What I never pieced together was that on every boss door, there's this symbolhttps://i.ytimg.com/vi/gTqFa6z7vUQ/hqdefault.jpg and when Leon defeats Death, then and only then, the castle crumbles.. I'm starting to think that the LOI Manga actually is canon, which if so means that Walter made a pact with Death. But why do I think so? There is logic and reason to this, Dracula9 has touched on part of it. The way I rationalise it is this, Death's existence is to hunt souls, he/ it is a Shinigami, who only has the interest to hunt souls. Walter does just this, hunting humans for sport, he assists Death with his ultimate cause, hunting more souls. However, upon serving Mathias, Walter simply became one of THOSE souls, Death didn't hesitate due to serving the Master of the CS. Of course it makes sense for Death to do this, as previously mentioned by D9 that by nature there's a higher likelihood or correlation that the CS leads to people dying, or being absorbed etc. Either way their souls are being hunted (or harvested, collected, what-have-you).

The way this feeds back to the original subject matter is that there was no Satan - at least, not at the time of LOI - who was involved with Mathias' fall from grace. I doubt Mathias made a pact with Death for reasons previously listed. CVIII's bs states that Dracula made a pact with an "ancient evil deity", but then maybe we should look at this from a different perspective. Perhaps the ancient deity isn't Satan, or Baphomet, maybe the Ancient Deity is the CS itself. Maybe since it absorbs/ has absorbed souls and changes its Master forever, creating/ completing the CS as Mathias did IS the blood pact with the deity being the essence of the CS itself. Just a theory.... A gaaaAAAAAAAAmmmmme the... (stopping now)
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: X on January 19, 2017, 03:58:25 PM
Quote
The way I rationalise it is this, Death's existence is to hunt souls, he/ it is a Shinigami, who only has the interest to hunt souls.

This is also another reason why I'm not fond of IGA's CV ideology. The true Grim Reaper was not a shinigami at all, but the actual European (Greek) god of Death; Thanatos, who would be later included in Christian mythology as one of the four horsemen of the Apocalypses. And there was only one of him making him unique in the world of monsters. Shinigami don't use the Syth because that is strictly Thanatos' implement. Outside of popular manga illustrations I've yet to see a shinigami use a Syth as a weapon outside of their traditional Japanese lore implements. And then there is also Death's look; a hooded cloaked skeleton. Shinigami don't dress like that let alone look like that (again outside of popular manga illustrations). It's just one more thing IGA changed around that should not have been touched, just like Dracula.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: theplottwist on January 19, 2017, 05:58:58 PM
This is also another reason why I'm not fond of IGA's CV ideology. The true Grim Reaper was not a shinigami at all, but the actual European (Greek) god of Death; Thanatos, who would be later included in Christian mythology as one of the four horsemen of the Apocalypses. And there was only one of him making him unique in the world of monsters. Shinigami don't use the Syth because that is strictly Thanatos' implement. Outside of popular manga illustrations I've yet to see a shinigami use a Syth as a weapon outside of their traditional Japanese lore implements. And then there is also Death's look; a hooded cloaked skeleton. Shinigami don't dress like that let alone look like that (again outside of popular manga illustrations). It's just one more thing IGA changed around that should not have been touched, just like Dracula.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FePhFLk2.png&hash=071094f78cbf3db7ed946428c8ceb82fd3df75d3)

This is Death being called "Shinigami" on the very first Castlevania. This repeats on the sequels.

There is another japanese word to mean Death in the more European "Grim Reaper" sense. When IGA got hold of Castlevania back on SotN, Death was renamed "デス (Desu)", the aforementioned word for "Death" in kana. Katakana is used when a foreign word (and quite possibly its intent) is transcripted into Japanese.

If anything, IGA initially made Death into the more european counterpart, not the contrary. It is clear, however, that "Shinigami" was the original intent -- which is most likely the reason why IGA returned "Death" to "Shinigami".

We need to stop putting everything we dislike on IGA's account.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on January 19, 2017, 06:39:29 PM
We need to stop putting everything we dislike on IGA's account.

Thank GOD someone else said it.
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: Dracula9 on January 19, 2017, 07:07:08 PM
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FePhFLk2.png&hash=071094f78cbf3db7ed946428c8ceb82fd3df75d3)

This is Death being called "Shinigami" on the very first Castlevania. This repeats on the sequels.

There is another japanese word to mean Death in the more European "Grim Reaper" sense. When IGA got hold of Castlevania back on SotN, Death was renamed "デス (Desu)", the aforementioned word for "Death" in kana. Katakana is used when a foreign word (and quite possibly its intent) is transcripted into Japanese.

If anything, IGA initially made Death into the more european counterpart, not the contrary. It is clear, however, that "Shinigami" was the original intent -- which is most likely the reason why IGA returned "Death" to "Shinigami".

It's an agent of the natural force of Death without actually being that force itself. It causes death because that is its purpose, ergo it's the non-Japanese equivalent to a Shinigami. Death is just a very powerful one of these, that happens to resemble the European lore of Death as a reaper. The European Reaper is not unanimously described as the singular force of Death personified--there's nothing in any European lore dictating that it cannot simply be a skeletal entity that acts as a middleman agent of the force-of-nature aspect of death.

It's really not all that complicated, really.

We need to stop putting everything we dislike on IGA's account.

A better phrasing would be "we really need to stop creating problems that aren't there to justify shitting on someone we don't like, and simply be content to dislike them of our own volition rather than fabricate reasons to do so."
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: Dremn on January 19, 2017, 10:54:51 PM
In the original canon, Dracula was pretty much "Lucifer." If there was a Lucifer, he was nothing compared to Dracula. Dracula made himself God's self proclaimed number 1 enemy

Lucifer was a much larger deal in the LoS games though

Focusing on Lucifer in Castlevania at all is just silly. The series should be about Dracula vs the Belmonts and their lineage/those who also take up the cause
Title: Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on January 20, 2017, 06:45:30 AM
It's an agent of the natural force of Death without actually being that force itself. It causes death because that is its purpose, ergo it's the non-Japanese equivalent to a Shinigami. Death is just a very powerful one of these, that happens to resemble the European lore of Death as a reaper. The European Reaper is not unanimously described as the singular force of Death personified--there's nothing in any European lore dictating that it cannot simply be a skeletal entity that acts as a middleman agent of the force-of-nature aspect of death.

It's really not all that complicated, really.

Yup. This idea was also present when I was translating Ricordanza. Death (reaper) is not death (force of nature).