Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Nagumo on April 20, 2017, 05:59:06 PM
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Yes, you've read that right: a reboot of a reboot.
This bizarre idea got into my head due to two things:
1) The announcement of that new Pachinko that's based on LoS but also features elements from earlier Castlevania games, such as going with a more traditional design for the Succubus and remixes of old tracks.
2) The rumours that were floating around about three years that Konami was interested in continuing the LoS series even though MercurySteam wanted to move on and do something different.
Of course, returning to the old continuity or creating an entirely new storyline would be my prefered way of continuing the series. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world, so let's assume the management of Konami wants to continue banking on the LoS name. However, because Cox and friends are no longer around (good riddance) they return of the series back to one of their internal development teams. "Lords of Shadow" has to be slapped on the cover but they are given free reign to do whatever they want.
Let's assume further this development takes this opportunity to retool the LoS universe in such a way that this time it actually stays true to the spirit of the Castlevania series. Basically a "director's cut" that removes all the dumb elements and adds back the elements that makes the Castlevania unique. I thought of a couple of things they could do:
First of all, they should sweep the previous LoS games under the rug by designating the LoS games made by MercurySteam to their own seperate universe so they are not tied down by their garbage storylines. No stupid things like Satan, Castlevania City, giant robots attacking Dracula's castle, etc. In other words, take this opportunity to start as fresh as possible. Take a couple of characters and rewrite the story in order to make it more suitable for the series. I suppose they still have to incorporate characters that fulfill the role of "Lords of Shadow". However, this time give each of them their own castle or have inhabit different parts of one huge castle. That way, the structure of the game follows that of a more traditional Castlevania game. Seperate the character of Dracula from Gabriel and make him resemble his past incarnations more.
Secondly, ditch the orchestral soundtrack and hire a more suitable composer this time. I doubt many people would disagree with me on this.
Thirdly, replace the generic enemies and bosses with a more interesting roster of foes or give them more interesting redesigns. There are a lot of cool and unique monsters from past games to choose from.
So basically this thread is a blend of "what-if?" and "how would you fix the the LoS series?". How would you react if Konami would do such a thing? What kind of things would you like to see improved in a "LoS remix" game.
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I've often thought about how easy LoS could have been made into a game that fit into the existing universe. It's actually shocking how little would have to change, for the first LoS at least. That is how I would like to see it done.
Set the game sometime between Leon and Trevor, maybe the 13th century.
The brotherhood of light is a holy order just as it is in the LoS games, maybe it was started by a Belmont.
Gabriel could be like the great grandson of the founder.
Make the Lords of Shadow all dark lord candidates vying for the title.
Satan tricks death into helping him actually steal the title of Dark Lord after manipulating Gabriel into killing the other candidates.
Gabriel manages to stop Satan, leaving the title of Dark Lord open/Satan is Dark Lord before Dracula, and is killed by Gabriel.
Make Gabriel the Belmont who becomes so powerful that people start to fear the Belmont's, leading to their exile. He's the Belmont who takes the step from Van Helsing/Solomon Kane type hunter into the Achilles/Hercules level super warrior.
Keep Dracula in the post credits, but it's Mathias, monitoring the Belmonts' progress from afar, possibly just having taken the title of Dracula.
Other than that, I would do a lot of what you said. More varied/interesting enemies. More Castlevania appropriate environments. I would also lean less on the high fantasy vibe, but not completely, as I think it is a viable avenue to explore in the series, though not one I would like to see as a central focus going forward.
Oh, and stop killing off interesting supporting characters as soon as possible. I couldn't believe how many missed opportunities we had in story telling because mercury storm couldn't hold off killing anyone besides Gabriel and Zobek for more then ten minutes.
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The problem with canonising LOS is that in this series, Gabriel is Dracula. Back in the day you had to deal with theories that "Gabriel became Mathias became Dracula" :P. If Gabriel is no longer Dracula, it's not LOS imho, because that was the main factor that set it apart from the original CV. Gabriel is that antihero and having him not be that seems like a cheap way to reuse his character, not that it really matters but why not just have a brand new protagonist?
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Not really... It happened in a post-credit scene, then was elaborated on in a DLC. I know that is an important factor in later LoS games, mostly 2. So I would have no problem ignoring that in a reboot.
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The problem with canonising LOS is that in this series, Gabriel is Dracula. Back in the day you had to deal with theories that "Gabriel became Mathias became Dracula" :P. If Gabriel is no longer Dracula, it's not LOS imho, because that was the main factor that set it apart from the original CV. Gabriel is that antihero and having him not be that seems like a cheap way to reuse his character, not that it really matters but why not just have a brand new protagonist?
Even though I think Zangetsu failed to fully grasp the concept of this thread (ignore what LoS is NOW, make LoS anew and Gabriel is not Dracula anymore), I think he's right by putting forth that this is something even sillier than LoS is: separating Dracula from Gabriel. Unless he was responding to AlexCalvo, but the lack of quotes confused me.
Gabriel has been built to be Dracula, from the overly dramatic plotline beginning before LoS, to his own brooding characterization and expression. Supposing they rebooted the LoS trilogy, separating Gabriel from Dracula would take an almost not-worth-it effort, to the point of having to rebuild Gabriel entirely down to his personality (something that, in game designing, is basically what dictates what the character looks like, so that would pretty much require him to *look* different too). That would be too much for the fanbase, I believe, and the effort is better wasted on a completelly new game.
HOWEVER that's not to say there couldn't be other possibility. I can see, for instance one such being an alternate timeline springing from some point in LoS' backstory. For instance: What would happen if Gabriel had discovered that Marie was pregnant? This would lead to a chain of events for him to avoid being used by Zobek, NOT becoming Dracula, and another to take the mantle. Now that's something I could see working nicely to both save Gabriel's characterization, undo his being used like a complete retard (thus restoring our perception of him to status quo) AND create a new character to be Dracula (thus restoring our perception of what Dracula represents in LoS). In this imaginary reboot, he was destined to be Dracula (therefore why starting characterization is the same) but ESCAPED his fate. You're having the cake AND eating it too.
All in all, I don't think rebooting LoS by pretending "it's LoS" but in fact having a completelly different underlying concept is a good idea. But I do think a reboot acknowledging LoS' universe BUT taking it to another direction with concepts laid down by LoS would be a better idea.
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Not really... It happened in a post-credit scene, then was elaborated on in a DLC. I know that is an important factor in later LoS games, mostly 2. So I would have no problem ignoring that in a reboot.
Elaborated? No it happens during the DLC, as soon as Gabriel downed Laura's entire body of blood. He simply got so powerful after acquiring TF1's power, that he didn't need the combat cross anymore.
The end of LOS did explicity show what happened post credits, however, if you also look in the game's art collection after finishing it, there's a portrait of Gabriel that explicitly says "Dracula".
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I like AlexCalvo version. He may not become Dracula but making Gabriel the one who made Europe fear and shun the name Belmont achieves pretty much the same result
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Even though I think Zangetsu failed to fully grasp the concept of this thread (ignore what LoS is NOW, make LoS anew and Gabriel is not Dracula anymore)
Plottwist, you sweet-talking devil.. How did you know that I enjoy fragments of insults served to me with a side of breakfast in the morning ;)
I think he's right by putting forth that this is something even sillier than LoS is: separating Dracula from Gabriel.
Exactly, it's not Gabriel without Dracula, he's just a husk. A different Belmont.
Unless he was responding to AlexCalvo, but the lack of quotes confused me.
Speaking to whoever wanted to read the post, not specifically at AlexCalvo.
Supposing they rebooted the LoS trilogy, separating Gabriel from Dracula would take an almost not-worth-it effort, to the point of having to rebuild Gabriel entirely down to his personality (something that, in game designing, is basically what dictates what the character looks like, so that would pretty much require him to *look* different too). That would be too much for the fanbase, I believe, and the effort is better wasted on a completelly new game.
Yep, I agree.
HOWEVER that's not to say there couldn't be other possibility. I can see, for instance one such being an alternate timeline springing from some point in LoS' backstory. For instance: What would happen if Gabriel had discovered that Marie was pregnant? This would lead to a chain of events for him to avoid being used by Zobek, NOT becoming Dracula, and another to take the mantle. Now that's something I could see working nicely to both save Gabriel's characterization, undo his being used like a complete retard (thus restoring our perception of him to status quo) AND create a new character to be Dracula (thus restoring our perception of what Dracula represents in LoS). In this imaginary reboot, he was destined to be Dracula (therefore why starting characterization is the same) but ESCAPED his fate. You're having the cake AND eating it too.
I'm always down for alternate timelines (comes from my love of Zelda) and how about eliminating the whole "Devil Mask" scenario altogether Zobek tries to use Gabriel to kill Marie. Through some chain of playable events, he saves Marie and the God Mask/ Devil Mask scenario never takes place. Maybe somehow Zobek takes up the mantle of Dark Lord. I think I prefer Zobek to Satan as an antagonist to begin with.
Would I buy it and play it? Who knows.
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LoS is done and fine on its own. Rebooting Castlevania on its own would be better at this point.
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Konami needs to reboot themselves first.
But yeah, it is a great idea to reboot LoS and make it more Castlevania by changing a lot of things, but then there will be no point in calling it LoS ? so maybe they should just reboot the original Castlevania timeline while keeping the spirit of original Castlevania and add the redesigned LoS characters to that new timeline.
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When's f2p Lords of Shadow where you can play as other members of the Brotherhood and you just do PSO2/Diablo II style loot runs? ? ? ?
It could be Harmony of Despair 2.
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well this thread brought thernz back from the dead so that's one good thing that's happened
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Yeah, while LoS reboot is an interesting possibility, I gotta disagree on a lot of points brought in the OP.
For one, some of the story ideas they had for LoS were good. I daresay, a lot of them were good. It was the execution that sucked, leaving some threads underdeveloped, while the others were just left hanging (and there were far too many of them at the same time; shoulda just took a couple and developed them fully).
For two, I don't think returning to the original continuity would be "the preferred way". Not for me, anyhow. Truth is, the original continuity is a convoluted mess mired in anime cliches which is why a reboot existed in the first place. I always said that LoS was an opportunity to bring the series back to its roots. A sorely missed opportunity, but whatchagonnado with Konami being Konami.
For three: Ditch the orchestral music? You know, the one unambiguosly good element about Lords of Shadow?
So how would I fix the LoS series?
The first game... I think I'd just trim some of the filler and leave the story mostly intact. Some things I'd elaborate more upon (like I would like some actual resolution to the whole God Mask macguffin) and add more development into Gabriel's transition from a hero to a spiteful villain.
From there on the series can just go into the "Belmont of the day" formula as usual, retaining the general gameplay (with some unique gimmicks for each character) while changing stories and time settings. That's what I thought LoS was going to turn into.
Oh, and subsequent games drop the "Lords of Shadow" subtitle. If it's a reboot, why the hell is subtitle a part of the sub-series title?
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I do like the idea of taking Gabriel the Belmont, and sticking him in the classic series, minus the dracula and cronqvist bastard stuff. he can be that one edgy angsty Belmont. Hell, there's a big gap between Leon and Trevor, right?
perfect for a Belmont who doesn't actually fight Dracula
honestly id say the lost potential on LoS1 as it is, is that Gabriel turns into Dracula. As a twist on it's own, it was definitely surprising and compelling. Very Coppolla Dracula-esque.
However, as a CASTLEVANIA twist, it was really just unnecessary. The game was perfect as it ended. it had a real nice bittersweet ending. You beat the shit out of satan and saved the day, but you don't get your girl back.
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I think the LoS universe is inherently flawed story-wise. It's not something that could be fixed with an alternative timeline of events in my opinion. For example, it wouldn't erase lame ideas like the Mirror of Fate, the Necromantic Wars, and Agartha. I think there a couple of good ideas that can be salvaged from the LoS series, but only when it's placed in a different context. Otherwise the terrible stuff keeps casting a shadow over it if you know what I mean.
Secondly, and I'm sure many people will disagree with me on this, but the reason why Gabriel doesn't really work for me as Dracula is that he is too different from how Dracula is portrayed in the previous. His look is too different and Dracula always been more of a magic user instead of using actual weapons. Of course, many people will argue LoS is a reboot, so it doesn't matter what Dracula was like before. However, I think there are some elements that should remain more or less consistent in a CV game, even if you're dealing with a reboot. Other games set in alternative universe, like for example CotM, got this right since Dracula's look is different enough but still recognizable.
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Reboot or nah, As long as the games are fun I don't care if the game centers around Tin Curry slowly becoming a Transvestite... but a Time warp plotline would be interesting.
LOS1 was the only game worth revisiting. MoF is literally Padding - The Game. and LoS2... fuck that game.
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Secondly, and I'm sure many people will disagree with me on this, but the reason why Gabriel doesn't really work for me as Dracula is that he is too different from how Dracula is portrayed in the previous. His look is too different and Dracula always been more of a magic user instead of using actual weapons. Of course, many people will argue LoS is a reboot, so it doesn't matter what Dracula was like before. However, I think there are some elements that should remain more or less consistent in a CV game, even if you're dealing with a reboot. Other games set in alternative universe, like for example CotM, got this right since Dracula's look is different enough but still recognizable.
I dont think you'll find much argument here.
while I didnt mind what they did with him, and can see the thought process behind it, that was definitely something there. in the post credits scene you had him sitting on a throne with long white hair, and that evoked a certain image, which was then just gabriel with a slightly altered outfit and slightly longer hair.
oh and a villain goatee because of course
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I dont think you'll find much argument here.
while I didnt mind what they did with him, and can see the thought process behind it, that was definitely something there. in the post credits scene you had him sitting on a throne with long white hair, and that evoked a certain image, which was then just gabriel with a slightly altered outfit and slightly longer hair.
oh and a villain goatee because of course
I found the Lords 2 DLCs totally worth it just to get my pale, white haired villainous goatee sportin' Drac back. It really makes Gabriel look like what SOTN Dracula would look like in the Lords Universe, just shirtless still. For some reason.
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As far as I recall, vampires in the LoS universe can absorbe some blood through their skin, hence why most of them are shirtless (but not Carmilla, eh).
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As far as I recall, vampires in the LoS universe can absorbe some blood through their skin, hence why most of them are shirtless (but not Carmilla, eh).
Carmilla too since she has her upper body exposed to a point. Just enough to keep it PG13 anyways.
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I'd be fine with a reboot if it handled its storytelling elements a bit better (and by that I mean less cliched-as-fuck).
I'd be more fine if they retained what is arguably the greatest line in the entire Lords trilogy:
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FIvBGwMP.png&hash=6020e2be63aba5d0c8f1b47517b0f22cf151a255)
Satan making a fucking evolution joke. Satan.
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I didnt read all that you say but i dont think its good to do a reboot, if they want to use LoS again they can expand more the world, i prefer that.
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I'd be fine with a reboot if it handled its storytelling elements a bit better (and by that I mean less cliched-as-fuck).
I'd be more fine if they retained what is arguably the greatest line in the entire Lords trilogy:
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FIvBGwMP.png&hash=6020e2be63aba5d0c8f1b47517b0f22cf151a255)
Satan making a fucking evolution joke. Satan.
That was brilliantly delivered. Jason Isaacs plays villains just so well. Tbh, I could see him making quite a good choice VA for a more classic timeline Dracula. I loved how he spat out 'I'll destroy the name of Belmont forever!', especially with the framing used in the original trailer. I can see why some people believed he would be Drac rather than RC.
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waste of money, better to reboot Sonia's Castlevania Legends, with redone story so it fits the timeline. she could be retconned as the granddaughter of Trevor
or make a direct sequel to Castlevania Harmony of Despair, with triple the chapters, playable characters, hunter skills, loot and more.
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>HD sequel with even more stuff to make it an even bigger clusterfuck
plsno
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Random crazy idea that I haven't pout much thought into:
Suppose in the reboot, they still made Gabe have his fall from grace, become evil, turn into the king of vampires and all that, but NOT be Dracula.
Have Gabriel dismiss "Dracula" as some old folk legend they use to scare children early on in the game. Later at some point, he saves some old shriveled looking man that's been held captive or bricked behind a wall or whatever. Maybe you could even have him strapped down and brutally tortured for ages with some character mentioning how nothing they do can actually kill the guy.
The guy helps Gabriel out, gives him some info, powerful weapon, or something along those lines and during the ending sequence after Gabriel receives his evil powers, you get the reveal that the old guy was the real Dracula, and now he's just biding his time, waiting for a chance to claim the title and power he feels is rightfully his.
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Random crazy idea that I haven't pout much thought into:
Suppose in the reboot, they still made Gabe have his fall from grace, become evil, turn into the king of vampires and all that, but NOT be Dracula.
Have Gabriel dismiss "Dracula" as some old folk legend they use to scare children early on in the game. Later at some point, he saves some old shriveled looking man that's been held captive or bricked behind a wall or whatever. Maybe you could even have him strapped down and brutally tortured for ages with some character mentioning how nothing they do can actually kill the guy.
The guy helps Gabriel out, gives him some info, powerful weapon, or something along those lines and during the ending sequence after Gabriel receives his evil powers, you get the reveal that the old guy was the real Dracula, and now he's just biding his time, waiting for a chance to claim the title and power he feels is rightfully his.
Did you watch Dracula Untold before writing this post?
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Did you watch Dracula Untold before writing this post?
I must admit that I was thinking the same thing. The being locked up beind a brick wall also makes me think of a scene in Interview with the Vampire, in the Theatre of the Vampires.
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Random crazy idea that I haven't pout much thought into:
Suppose in the reboot, they still made Gabe have his fall from grace, become evil, turn into the king of vampires and all that, but NOT be Dracula.
Have Gabriel dismiss "Dracula" as some old folk legend they use to scare children early on in the game. Later at some point, he saves some old shriveled looking man that's been held captive or bricked behind a wall or whatever. Maybe you could even have him strapped down and brutally tortured for ages with some character mentioning how nothing they do can actually kill the guy.
The guy helps Gabriel out, gives him some info, powerful weapon, or something along those lines and during the ending sequence after Gabriel receives his evil powers, you get the reveal that the old guy was the real Dracula, and now he's just biding his time, waiting for a chance to claim the title and power he feels is rightfully his.
But then plot twist the guy in the wall was actually Fortunato all along.
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As far as I'm concerned, they can throw it in the well. Mirror Of Fate was the only half-dozen game that we got out of that series. I almost want to say that the last good Castlevania game we got was Castlevania The Adventure Rebirth.
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As far as I'm concerned, they can throw it in the well. Mirror Of Fate was the only half-dozen game that we got out of that series. I almost want to say that the last good Castlevania game we got was Castlevania The Adventure Rebirth.
MoF is a piece of shit imo. I agree about AR though, people are divisive about it, but I think it's pretty damn good.
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what would even be the point of a lords reboot with gabriel in it when lords was a reboot
i dont think gabriel even went on to be that iconic of a character, and im not sure lords really had that much traction despite 1mil sales
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There's no point, really. However, Konami was apperently interested in continuing LoS without MercurySteam. So my idea is basically trying to make the best out of a bad situation lol. That rumor was circulating before LoS2 even came out though. But like you said, it doesn't seem like the LoS series is looked bad on fondly. Then again, I believe Cox and Alvarez recently bragged that LoS2 sold better than most Castlevania games or something, so it's difficult to determine how much merit LoS actually has for Konami.
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i feel like with lords 2, any ideas for continuing the subfranchise died with it just because of the reception, and bc konami itself never really spoke about the sales, so i think cox's and alvarez's say on that is a bit doubtful.
the pachinko probably only exists bc there are assets they could recycle, but it's also based on lords 1 which was actually pretty successful unlike los2 too.
they should reboot castlevania as a musou/dynasty warriors game and it'll be the castlevania judgment everyone wanted. but then they'll remember that the average consumer has no attachment to any castlevania character besides simon belmont and alucard.
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Just wanted to throw it out there... but wasn't it just down right shameful that none of the abundant "historical" references in Universe in LoS2 made any call backs to the original series? Even MoF had Grant's body... I feel like Lords of Shadow should really be called Opportunities of Missed. How hard would it be to slide in some more Belmonts, maybe even Henry. He was a knight after all.
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I feel like Lords of Shadow should really be called Opportunities of Missed.
#lordsofmissedopportunities