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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: theplottwist on May 11, 2017, 11:17:36 PM

Title: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: theplottwist on May 11, 2017, 11:17:36 PM
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FIpEXnMk.png&hash=144e6c05a7708074068ac8e38b4854116b85b1dc)

In Dawn of Sorrow, on Yoko's room, there's a map on the wall. Even if it appears prominently featured due to the way it's framed, it is a map with no striking features at first glance, being there just to enrich the background. Within the game's universe, however, this map could be the only thing that marks the location of the Lost Village (which, in Japanese, is called the "Village Vanished From The Map").

For a long time I tried to find out if that map meant something or was from somewhere, because I know that these more artistic assets are made from a larger art created previously, and then scaled down and cleaned into pixel art format. I did not succeed for a very long time and started considering the map just a detail without significance (such as many across these games), but the flea behind my ear continued to disturb me. By luck, it's possible that I have now figured out where the map came from.

The same map appears as the background image during the Lament of Innocence credits:

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuE56i5W.png&hash=032fa1abe69db579c8c3e254e0e931545aae98b3)

Notice that the overall shape of some areas are eerily similar:

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeQDJbGc.png&hash=c14b494d34362e9eb560924eb8f120a60a9fe36c)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPv1w67z.png&hash=5272edb312c20fc128e97d9c5038f16aa027d28a)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3EeJw7x.png&hash=97f4d1c34e267a5fff27986501335dc7da88ca66)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fv6BbWB2.png&hash=83554444dc30be2049e3b8ab1acfe35609eea8dc)

And that would not be the first thing appearing on Dawn that was used on Lament: Walter's exact castle appears on Dawn's title screen. My hypothesis was that Dawn events occurred on the same area as Lament, and now that hypothesis has gotten a bit stronger.

You will notice some inconsistencies on the maps, and I chalk those up to the compression that the original map suffered when it was converted and manually cleaned to be readable on the small screen as pixel art. It is possible that the pixel artist has modified colors and distorted some areas slightly (such as the topmost mountain range that seems stretched/wider in Dawn) in the correction/conversion process. But you can see that the area supposed to be a coastline fits perfectly even in the dark colors near the upper right corner of the two maps. You can also see the similarities of the mountain range at the top and the position of the details on the left side.

Now, as I said above, it's a POSSIBILITY, not a certainty, because of one detail: This image on Lament might not be a map at all. If you look closely, you can see at the top that those look like towers, not "map details", and this image might in fact be an illustration of Walter's Castle. However you can CLEARLY see what appear to be roads and mountain ranges on the same illustration, and a compass/wind rose symbol on the lower right, indicating that my analysis could be correct, and the map on Lament is heavily distorted because they transposed an image of Walter's Castle onto a map illustration.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: suomynona on May 11, 2017, 11:33:16 PM
Wait, so is DoS set in Romania? I thought it was set in Japan.

Still, that map could only be a decoration or an easter egg.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: theplottwist on May 11, 2017, 11:50:18 PM
Wait, so is DoS set in Romania? I thought it was set in Japan.

Celia's cult is called "With Light". In Japanese, it's written with Katakana ("Uizu raito") meaning that it's a foreign word to Japan. The cult's billboard on Lost Village, also, is not written in Japanese. Each of the members has a foreign name written in Katakana -- again, meaning foreign names. So it's a pretty safe assumption that the cult's base is not on Japan, but this does NOT mean Dawn takes place in Romania.

If my discovery is correct and Dawn happens on the same area as Lament, then Dawn most likely does not happen anywhere near Romania. Because at the end of Lament, Mathias flees to "faraway lands" -- these lands being Romania.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on May 12, 2017, 07:10:17 AM
Great detective work plot!

@superc4: I second plot's explanation. Dawn does not take place in Japan. It takes place somewhere in Europe.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 12, 2017, 09:26:00 AM
It has to be in Europe imo. The streetscape outside of the castle has non-Japanese architecture and its vehicles look European.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: suomynona on May 12, 2017, 11:59:14 AM
It has to be in Europe imo. The streetscape outside of the castle has non-Japanese architecture and its vehicles look European.

Yeh, but it's set in 2036, so I wouldn't be surprised if they built the buildings in European buildings. Most buildings looks like that nowdays. Also it could be some sort of Ijinkan (Japanese buildings/towns with classic Western architecture).

Trivia here, but while I was looking in Google maps, I found Hakuba-cho in Japan. It's about 25km west of Nagano. Apparently it falls within 2035 eclipse travel path (meaning thayt you could see the eclipse crystal-clear from that location). Not sure if they have shrine in there tho.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 12, 2017, 11:19:59 PM
Yeh, but it's set in 2036, so I wouldn't be surprised if they built the buildings in European buildings. Most buildings looks like that nowdays. Also it could be some sort of Ijinkan (Japanese buildings/towns with classic Western architecture).


Firstly 2036 isn't so far into the future. Not enough to alter the vernacular architecture of countries which have been established for hundreds and thousands of years.

I don't understand your comment about building buildings within buildings.

Secondly, it could be some western-looking town in Japan, but I'm choosing to use Occam's razor here. Given that plottwist has already noted evidence which is substantiated about a European location, assuming that "City Street" is in Japan, does not make sense.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: SecretWeapon on May 13, 2017, 11:52:59 PM
Maybe the castle ruins under Celia's replica actually belong to Walter's  Castle.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: suomynona on May 14, 2017, 07:29:13 AM
Firstly 2036 isn't so far into the future. Not enough to alter the vernacular architecture of countries which have been established for hundreds and thousands of years.

I don't understand your comment about building buildings within buildings.

Secondly, it could be some western-looking town in Japan, but I'm choosing to use Occam's razor here. Given that plottwist has already noted evidence which is substantiated about a European location, assuming that "City Street" is in Japan, does not make sense.

Oh, building buildings within building was a typo. It's supposed to say building buildings with European architecture/style.  :-X

Also, what I was pointing at was that in 2036, there are modern buildings in Japan (obviously), and the town's buildings are modern buildings that is literally built everywhere around the world. So we can't determine where it is. In the intro, the town's name is Hakuba(-cho). Unless it's like Japanese-populated area and it's some kind of nickname for the town, there is no way in hell that European city will be named like that. At least the town is in Japan.

About Celia's castle, I think it's in Japan as well, because DoS is all set within one night. There's no way that Mina will be in Japan (her home) at the start (probably shortly after sunset) and arrive anywhere in Europe by the dawn (10 hours to at least land anywhere in Europe, almost 15 hours to Romania). Unless of some kind of teleport, but I didn't see a hint of it from Soma's side of people.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: theplottwist on May 14, 2017, 09:21:52 AM
In the intro, the town's name is Hakuba(-cho).

Do you have source on that? I also believe the town in the intro is at Japan, but I'm yet to see a source for its name.

Unless you're talking about the scrolling text, which is actually talking about events in the past year.

Quote
About Celia's castle, I think it's in Japan as well, because DoS is all set within one night. There's no way that Mina will be in Japan (her home) at the start (probably shortly after sunset) and arrive anywhere in Europe by the dawn (10 hours to at least land anywhere in Europe, almost 15 hours to Romania). Unless of some kind of teleport, but I didn't see a hint of it from Soma's side of people.

Not a good idea to use Mina or time scale for two reasons:

1. We don't know if it really takes place over one single night. Granted, we only ever see the moon. But this is also a Demon Castle, and we've seen a Demon Castle produce artificial night before. On top of that, we've seen by Dracula's Castle that time does NOT follow an orderly flow inside a Demon Castle (OoE- Machine Tower, look at the outside). For all we know, it could've taken minutes to weeks to finish the quest. It's impossible to guess how long it took.

2. The start of the castle is not in the same day as the intro. Mina sends Soma a letter and in it she says that Soma disappeared right after the event with Celia at the intro, and the she grew worried that he might've gone after the cult. It takes more than one full day to grow worried to that point. So, you have here a believable large time span previous to Soma's arrival at the castle that could include Mina making her way after him and arriving just some hours past Soma's arrival at the castle. The time scale is also supported by a Yoko line, saying that it's been long now that Soma doesn't see Mina -- meaning that it COULD have been days ago that Soma left from home to reach the castle, and Mina followed behind. You can't comment on "how long it has been since you last saw a person" if it was just some hours ago.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Foffy on May 14, 2017, 10:49:28 AM
Maybe the castle ruins under Celia's replica actually belong to Walter's  Castle.

I always thought something like this. How would a cult get a castle that more or less has the usual flair of Dracula's castle? In games like Legacy of Darkness or Circle of the Moon, these were servants of Dracula.

My only assumption for an outsider to the servants was using a location that had similar powers and properties. The only location that alludes to this was Walter's castle, and I assumed the reuse of the image in the title screen was a hint to this. I didn't realize the map was reused, too.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: suomynona on May 14, 2017, 01:46:34 PM
Do you have source on that? I also believe the town in the intro is at Japan, but I'm yet to see a source for its name.

Unless you're talking about the scrolling text, which is actually talking about events in the past year.

Not a good idea to use Mina or time scale for two reasons:

1. We don't know if it really takes place over one single night. Granted, we only ever see the moon. But this is also a Demon Castle, and we've seen a Demon Castle produce artificial night before. On top of that, we've seen by Dracula's Castle that time does NOT follow an orderly flow inside a Demon Castle (OoE- Machine Tower, look at the outside). For all we know, it could've taken minutes to weeks to finish the quest. It's impossible to guess how long it took.

2. The start of the castle is not in the same day as the intro. Mina sends Soma a letter and in it she says that Soma disappeared right after the event with Celia at the intro, and the she grew worried that he might've gone after the cult. It takes more than one full day to grow worried to that point. So, you have here a believable large time span previous to Soma's arrival at the castle that could include Mina making her way after him and arriving just some hours past Soma's arrival at the castle. The time scale is also supported by a Yoko line, saying that it's been long now that Soma doesn't see Mina -- meaning that it COULD have been days ago that Soma left from home to reach the castle, and Mina followed behind. You can't comment on "how long it has been since you last saw a person" if it was just some hours ago.

I see. Really can't think any critical info bout that, but still, here's what I think. Say like Soma entered castle itself and finished the job within a night. Most CV games tend to fit the time frame within one night of full moon. But, before the event told in-game, he laid low and investigated about the cult, it's not like Celia gave him the address or something. And he laid low for sake of protecting Mina, so it makes sense that she did not know anything about it. Also, it would take an entire day for transportation. (This is based on assumption to that Soma's hometown is Hakuba-cho in Nagano) First, travel from Hakuba-cho to Nagano. About 20 min. Then, From Nagano to Tokyo takes two or three hours. Then, he have to travel northward, at least to snow in mid-September (one year and a week-ish since AoS which is set on Sep 2, 2035). It'll then take about good 4 or 5 hours. Then, Soma have to travel from station/airport. The area seems quite remote, so about 1 more hour. It'll take half a day just for travelling from Soma's home to the Castle. Also, I'm driving this way too much, but if the Castle was in Europe, Things gets more complicated.

I dunno what I'm saying
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 14, 2017, 08:06:37 PM
What I believe plottwist is stating is that there's two parts to the intro:
- The city/ town with scrolling text (photo attached) is Japan.
- The "City Street" level as well as the castle location is suggested to be in Europe.

Therefore the 2 are not exclusively the same area:
- One explains the backstory of events over the previous year.
- The other is an area which contains Celia's castle (buried in deep wood)... How deep we can't know, but there's a van covered with snow in the Lost City/ Forgotten City, which by the name is implied to have formerly been an actual city. If there's a van parked there, how far can it be from civilisation, maybe 1-4 hours (at a punt?) which Soma states he found, presumably on foot. (Any more and you be needing to drink, eat, sleep or crap in the woods).

The last point I want to make us something brought up about LOI's ending, that the Castle couldn't be in Romania due to Mathias fleeing for "faraway lands", this is in reference to DoS' Castle location. Firstly I don't see why the LOI Castle can't be in contemporary Romania, as I always took the ending to mean Mathias fled Walachia and went into solitude to gather his power. (This and there's evidence I've posted before of the Castle not belonging to Walter Bernhard) However let's assume that it is not in Romania, then if that line from LOI's ending stands, how far is far away - or more importantly in the context of 1094 - how far WAS far away? 1000km plus? The only method of travel back then was boat or horse and carriage.. Thing is, Europe is littered with castles and here are some fun facts, after the bit of research I've done (cbb posting links as I'm on a mobile phone, sorry) the name Cronqvist (spelled Kronqvist) seems most common today in Sweden and Finland, while Bernhard seems to be a German name, while Gandolfi is Italian. Given in theory that the Castle is supposedly "Castle Bernhard", is sit safe to assume it's situated "faraway" from contemporary Romania? I'm also curious at to whether LOI's map synchs with anywhere in the real world.

(I'm not sure where confirmation of Hakuba (cho) lies within DOS, however, it's interesting that in AOS Soma is walking up temple stairs in the intro (under a Japanese style temple arc) and DOS gives a city overview (attached) which looks similar to Kamakura town in Japan, which apparently contains a lot of Shinto temples, being some kind of medieval Japanese centre).

Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 15, 2017, 07:41:01 PM
Apologies for the double post, but I found something interesting, specifically regarding the map itself. See attached jpegs.

Also sorry if this is shit quality. I can't upload anything any larger. 

The first image is LOI's map, the middle image is a location in Sweden, but it's been mirrored. The bottom image is an undisclosed location in Europe (I literally lost the map but managed to salvaged the screen capture - if anyone knows, feel free to chime in).
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: yamabigdog on May 25, 2017, 01:01:35 AM
Nice find man, definitely great job on your part.  I never gave it much of a second look.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 25, 2017, 01:13:32 PM
Nice find man, definitely great job on your part.  I never gave it much of a second look.

Thanks Dude. I'm still literally looking for the location, although I've taken a break. I think it's between Sweden and Copenhagen. 
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 28, 2017, 02:07:49 AM
Again, apologies for the double post, I found another location which I believe fits the LOI map more suitably.

Re: theories of Mathias moving to "faraway/ foreign lands" by 1094's standards, it's anywhere between 900-1100 km from Romania.

In terms of DoS, the climate could be similar to that of the Lost Village (Snowing etc) and not removed from civilisation so vehicles couldn't reach it.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on May 28, 2017, 02:28:08 AM
The first image is LOI's map, the middle image is a location in Sweden, but it's been mirrored.

Matthias Cronqvist's surname is, ironically enough, Swedish in origin and means "Crown Twig" -- probably a reference to noble nonroyal lineage which would make sense as the narrator calls him a knight and knights by period tradition could only come from the noble classes of Europe in most countries. Quite literally, Lord Dracula was an actual Lord in-universe before he was Dracula. He might have actually come from Sweden at this rate, but this might also be coincidence. I've long thought Celia's cult repurposed Walter's castle, but my current line of thinking is "what if that's a castle that belonged to Mathias' family before he became Dracula?" Add in some admittedly vaguely Scandinavian design touches in the Lost Village and... it might actually be in Sweden guys.

Probably all coincidence though. My mind does so love to race.

[EDIT]

As I thought, any references to Dracula as a "Count" are A) post-Dark Lordification as Sweden has no records of any sort of [formally recognized] peerage earlier than 1280 AD or (more likely) B) a reference to the books and films that inspired the series -- he almost assuredly wouldn't have actually been a Count in-universe as the Church doesn't exactly hand out a Countship/Grafdom to the walking embodiment of Chaos that is their sworn enemy. Any noble heritage Mathias might have had in 1094 probably went WAAAAY back; possibly without any sort of formal title.

Now I seriously want to know more about this dude's family. Seriously.

[EDIT EDIT]

The rabbit hole goes deeper. At the risk of going off-topic almost completely, Knights in their present understanding only appear in the historic record at about 1200, though the concept of horse-mounted warriors in Europe goes back several centuries before that. Which would imply that first, there's a critical research failure on the part of Iga's guys here, and also that Leon and Mathias were probably among the very first modern knights in the Castlevania universe.

SHIT.

You deduce new stuff every day, it seems.

[EDIT EDIT EDIT]

DAMMIT.

If the castle Celia used was indeed Swedish and was indeed connected to Mathias pre-vampireization, it most likely belonged to him directly as given to him by (presumably) Inge the Elder or his brother, Blot-Sweyn, depending on when it would have been granted. Under some very old laws, Castles in Sweden prior to 1300 couldn't be considered hereditary and would have been returned to the King when the current grantor died.

Long story short, it's either Walter's damn Castle, or Mathias' own pre-Drac digs.

Depending on whether or not this place is actually in Sweden. But I think either one would be MASSIVELY attractive to Celia Fortner and her Dark Lord obsessed loonies.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: theplottwist on May 28, 2017, 02:57:00 AM
[EDIT]

As I thought, any references to Dracula as a "Count" are A) post-Dark Lordification as Sweden has no records of any sort of [formally recognized] peerage earlier than 1280 AD or (more likely) B) a reference to the books and films that inspired the series -- he almost assuredly wouldn't have actually been a Count in-universe as the Church doesn't exactly hand out a Countship/Grafdom to the walking embodiment of Chaos that is their sworn enemy. Any noble heritage Mathias might have had in 1094 probably went WAAAAY back; possibly without any sort of formal title.

Mathias was already a Count by LoI's time. May be inconsistent with reality (as many things on CV's universe are), but it's true.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on May 28, 2017, 03:03:16 AM
Mathias was already a Count by LoI's time. May be inconsistent with reality (as many things on CV's universe are), but it's true.

Well, there was no title ANYWHERE called a Count in 1094 (it doesn't emerge until much later), but I have no trouble reading that as he was some equivalent rank and just updated the wording when the term eventually came about, which is something actual historians do in real life as well. So, at least to me, that seems to make the most sense.

Therefore, strictly speaking, he's always been essentially a Count even if that wasn't always the term used to describe his rank.

Certainly by the time Trevor Belmont came to whip him at the head off, the term "count" had come into adoption, so in terms of game canon, he goes from "essentially a Count but semantically not" to "actual Count for all intents and purposes plus he's the Dark Lord who's gonna argue with him" literally on the next notch in the timeline down from LoI.

As for who's gonna argue with him, clearly Trevor did. With a whip. His argument seems to have had mixed results.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: theplottwist on May 28, 2017, 03:47:46 AM
Well, there was no title ANYWHERE called a Count in 1094 (it doesn't emerge until much later), but I have no trouble reading that as he was some equivalent rank and just updated the wording when the term eventually came about, which is something actual historians do in real life as well. So, at least to me, that seems to make the most sense.

Therefore, strictly speaking, he's always been essentially a Count even if that wasn't always the term used to describe his rank.

Certainly by the time Trevor Belmont came to whip him at the head off, the term "count" had come into adoption, so in terms of game canon, he goes from "essentially a Count but semantically not" to "actual Count for all intents and purposes plus he's the Dark Lord who's gonna argue with him" literally on the next notch in the timeline down from LoI.

As for who's gonna argue with him, clearly Trevor did. With a whip. His argument seems to have had mixed results.

Also, I just want to add I didn't take it from some speculation or something. It was on Mathias' bio itself:

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6DNkaFY.png&hash=fa401f75e670c5a779b7ec6d0571f82347b3ffe4)

It says: "A prodigious genius tactician in a knighthood society where education is neglected. He has a close relationship with Leon, and has the title of Count/Earl. He fell ill after losing his wife Elisabetha. The person who told Leon his fiance had been kidnapped."
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on May 28, 2017, 04:33:11 AM
Also, I just want to add I didn't take it from some speculation or something. It was on Mathias' bio itself:

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6DNkaFY.png&hash=fa401f75e670c5a779b7ec6d0571f82347b3ffe4)

It says: "A prodigious genius tactician in a knighthood society where education is neglected. He has a close relationship with Leon, and has the title of Count/Earl. He fell ill after losing his wife Elisabetha. The person who told Leon his fiance had been kidnapped."

I will point out that, at least in-game, he's never been referred to as a count prior to the term coming into use -- every time he's been called Count Dracula has been in a calendar year that takes place after the term began to come into wide adoption, which I think bolsters this theory.

But given the evidence you provided, I would definitely go with Earl -- at least for his original title. Not only is it an older title that goes back further than Count, but it's also almost exactly equivalent in rank and social standing in the British Isles and Scandinavia, making it a more accurate translation in terms of communicating meaning. As mentioned before, Mathias' surname definitely pegs him as a Swede and this is actually a real world detail that Castlevania has historically gotten mostly right, so Earl is very likely the one.

So... they did do their homework when writing Lament after all. :D It's actually hitting the target pretty dead-center in that regard. So it would seem that when he made his war upon mankind later on, he simply presented himself using a contemporary but equivalent title that the rest of Europe would have easily recognized by that time -- which is actually pretty smart. But Dracula is also a pretty modern man who is routinely slightly ahead of whichever time he tends to appear in, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by that.

I wonder what he did to merit the promotion; Earls in his day couldn't usually inherit the title (though the King automatically appointing the eldest son of a previous Earl out of a sense of gratitude wasn't unheard of). So now I'm wondering how he came by that title, but that's another question for another thread.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Dracula9 on May 28, 2017, 05:10:22 AM
I wonder what he did to merit the promotion; Earls in his day couldn't usually inherit the title (though the King automatically appointing the eldest son of a previous Earl out of a sense of gratitude wasn't unheard of). So now I'm wondering how he came by that title, but that's another question for another thread.

by being really fucking pretty
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on May 28, 2017, 05:22:52 AM
by being really fucking pretty

Historian that I am, I can honestly say without a hint of joking or irony that this probably no-kidding helped -- Scandinavians had a reputation for being much cleaner and practicing better hygiene than other Europeans in the Early Modern and Middle Ages; even commoners bathed once a week as opposed to once every 2-3 months (if one was royalty elsewhere) or even worse, once annually (if you were a lucky peasant). They also brushed their teeth and even washed their hair with shampoo, all of which is well documented by historians of the period. Mathias honestly would have simply appeared to be ungodly beautiful for his age just because he came from a society that prized personal hygiene more than their contemporaries.

Leon probably wondered how Mathias kept his hair so silky and awesome and when Mathias told him about shampoo, Leon wouldn't have believed him.
It only would have made sense later after learning about Mathias' work with alchemy that Leon would have realized that Mathias wasn't just blowing smoke about it, but Leon would have just assumed it was some sort of witchcraft or alchemic process. No Leon, literally everyone in Sweden was doing it. You just came from a backwards Barony in 11th century France.

Also: the Church seriously DID consider Scandinavian bathing habits to be the Devil's Work as Viking invaders were accused of "making themselves beautiful to seduce honest Christian women and take them back to their Devil Gods" as the Catholic Church held bathing regularly to be a symptom of the sin of Vanity up until the Late Renaissance period.

So yeah. Mathias really might have been that goddamn pretty for his time.

You meant it as a joke, but then HISTORY! happened.  ;D
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Dracula9 on May 28, 2017, 05:36:57 AM
I'm a descendant of legendary Nordic royalty--who said it was entirely a joke?  ;)
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: theplottwist on May 28, 2017, 06:32:38 AM
I will point out that, at least in-game, he's never been referred to as a count prior to the term coming into use -- every time he's been called Count Dracula has been in a calendar year that takes place after the term began to come into wide adoption, which I think bolsters this theory.

But given the evidence you provided, I would definitely go with Earl -- at least for his original title. Not only is it an older title that goes back further than Count, but it's also almost exactly equivalent in rank and social standing in the British Isles and Scandinavia, making it a more accurate translation in terms of communicating meaning. As mentioned before, Mathias' surname definitely pegs him as a Swede and this is actually a real world detail that Castlevania has historically gotten mostly right, so Earl is very likely the one.

So... they did do their homework when writing Lament after all. :D It's actually hitting the target pretty dead-center in that regard. So it would seem that when he made his war upon mankind later on, he simply presented himself using a contemporary but equivalent title that the rest of Europe would have easily recognized by that time -- which is actually pretty smart. But Dracula is also a pretty modern man who is routinely slightly ahead of whichever time he tends to appear in, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by that.

I wonder what he did to merit the promotion; Earls in his day couldn't usually inherit the title (though the King automatically appointing the eldest son of a previous Earl out of a sense of gratitude wasn't unheard of). So now I'm wondering how he came by that title, but that's another question for another thread.

Ah so that makes sense. I omitted the term "Earl" because "Hakushaku" also means Count. When I first found out about this bio, I did a bit of research and the results I got told me "Earl" and "Count" were "the same thing". But as you say now, they apparently are not. Sorry for omitting it.

Also, I should mention Leon does refer to Mathias as "Lord", indicating there a nobility position.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on May 28, 2017, 07:04:29 AM
Wow! I never knew that the Scandinavians practiced better hygiene than the rest of Europe during that era.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Nagumo on May 28, 2017, 07:10:26 AM
I don't have a anything to add to this discussion, but I just want to say that I'm surprised I overlooked that bit of Mathias already being count during LoI's time. I remember complaining that Dracula having the title of count during the later games was never properly explained. Of course, I considered I might have to do with Mathias' background as a knight but I dismissed it because I assumed he was never refered to by that title in any of the materials. So in short, interesting!
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 28, 2017, 07:24:43 AM
Regarding geographical origins of people's names:

Cronqvist (Kronqvist) seems to originate from Sweden
Bernhard seems to be German in origin, while
Gandolfi seems to be Italian in origin

Not that it matters, but I initially thought that perhaps there was a link to the location, particularly with either Walter or Mathias.

The location I've picked lies between Finland and Russia, approximately 1100 km North of Romania. Not that it's 100% conclusive, but it's not in an impractical location, and as I've said Europe is littered with Castles.

Logically, the odds are that it could either belong to Mathias or Walter. In LOI, I never got the impression the Castle belonged to Mathias, if anything it seemed to be more Walter's Castle if anything. However I have also mentioned this in an old old thread that I do believe ownership of the castle was transferred to Mathias (and subsequently to Death, after Mathias fled the castle) after he had Death use the Crimson Stone to absorb Walter's soul. Perhaps this castle only required or desired a strong dark/ vampiric energy to rule it (as evidenced by Joachim's ending). This could explain how Walter inherited the Castle, but why it crumbled after Leon beat Death.

The importance of the Castle location isn't where, but that if this hypothesis is correct, that it's not THE Castlevania.

It's possible that there's a link to the underworld in this forest which was the original castle's source of "chaos". It's also possible Celia's cult rebuilt this to mimic Dracula's (previous) Castle, as it's clear the DOS Castle is no replica of LOI's. 

Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Dracula9 on May 28, 2017, 08:02:00 AM
Wow! I never knew that the Scandinavians practiced better hygiene than the rest of Europe during that era.

There's a reason we were conquerors and explorers and feared across Europe--we were cleaner (so less likely to drop dead from a minor-ass disease) and better-looking (causing the enemy to be so infatuated with our braided beards and flowing locks that they became easy sport) and nobody stood a chance.

We never wore horned helmets though.  :P
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on May 28, 2017, 08:17:35 AM
Bernhard seems to be German in origin, while

It is indeed, and there's an intentional corollary with Walter's name and the name of "Vlad Tepes" -- the names Vlad and Walter both derive from the same Germanic root "Wald" which means "Ruler". In fact, the name Walter derives from the earlier "Waldihar" which literally means "Ruler of an Army". This name was apparently very deliberately chosen during development, and the desired implication at the time was that Mathias essentially becomes the next "Ruler" by double crossing Walter and using the Crimson Stone and Death's help to steal his power/essence, transforming into "Vlad", a new "Ruler" over Walter's legions, which would have explained how Dracula got his first servants.

Iga later backtracked on that a little bit with his later works. Early on, the idea seemed to be that Walter served as the previous Dark Lord, but this detail in particular seemed to have been retconned later into something more or less ambiguous about Walter's status, with the new stance mostly being that Walter was simply the most powerful vampire in existence at the time (both in terms of personal power and the numbers/capabilities of his servants) but not necessarily the "Dark Lord". Nevertheless, that core essence of that story --that command of the Earthly forces of Evil transferred to Dracula upon his ascension after killing Walter-- is still rooted in Dracula's origins in the current canon.

Crap, we were supposed to be talking about a map, I think.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 28, 2017, 11:06:28 AM
It is indeed, and there's an intentional corollary with Walter's name and the name of "Vlad Tepes" -- the names Vlad and Walter both derive from the same Germanic root "Wald" which means "Ruler". In fact, the name Walter derives from the earlier "Waldihar" which literally means "Ruler of an Army". This name was apparently very deliberately chosen during development, and the desired implication at the time was that Mathias essentially becomes the next "Ruler" by double crossing Walter and using the Crimson Stone and Death's help to steal his power/essence, transforming into "Vlad", a new "Ruler" over Walter's legions, which would have explained how Dracula got his first servants.

Iga later backtracked on that a little bit with his later works. Early on, the idea seemed to be that Walter served as the previous Dark Lord, but this detail in particular seemed to have been retconned later into something more or less ambiguous about Walter's status, with the new stance mostly being that Walter was simply the most powerful vampire in existence at the time (both in terms of personal power and the numbers/capabilities of his servants) but not necessarily the "Dark Lord". Nevertheless, that core essence of that story --that command of the Earthly forces of Evil transferred to Dracula upon his ascension after killing Walter-- is still rooted in Dracula's origins in the current canon.

Crap, we were supposed to be talking about a map, I think.

Interesting info.

If I had to take a stab at why Walter wasn't the Dark Lord, perhaps it was to do with ownership of the Crimson Stone. It also feels better left ambiguous so that Dracula isn't simply "filling a role" ie there needn't necessarily have to be a Dark Lord, which would explain and account for the time lapses between Dracula's resurrections.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Guy Belmont on May 31, 2017, 09:00:39 PM
Gandolfi seems to be Italian in origin

yeah Gandolfi What ever happen to his line,
 he just got dropped, I mean he helped make the vampire Killer, the vampire killer, !!!!!  the most powerful weapon in the canon.  aside from Giovanni (and he's not really canon)

It be nice have one set like in the 80s and a Gandolfi could help them out then.
Oh man that be so cool, like going to a club that's doing a black mass rave, (like in devil man) but this mass is to call power to Dracula. Oh man that be soooo cool, I can just see it, bored 80s kids &  yuppie trying to get a thrill. Oh and then the user of the whip could come down from the rafters and take them down. Ahhhh A CV set in the 80s, maybe in the cold war...
COME KONAMI.


But yeah i'd have loved to see more of his line, I think its a shame and missed opportunity. I mean they could have slipped him in even in if it was just in passing.

Like  In my work I always had it that  leonardo da vinci was of the Gandolfi  line, and helped power the whip up even more by adding more parts to it.

Oh come on Konami, I need a new CV set of games, come on guys really I'll buy em  :'(   
some that really focus on the Belmont's and evolve there game play, sort of like LOS MoF, but better
I mean just look what Capcom, Nintendo  And square enix are doing with there old IPs,
 
making them work in todays gaming market by reworking them, but keeping there core. And you could do the same to, You guys should be ashamed of yourselves .
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Dracula9 on June 02, 2017, 04:29:40 PM
I love this fanbase's ability to turn literally any discussion over any subject even remotely relating to anything Castlevania into a "Konami sucks because they're not making CV games" bashing session.

Just kidding it's actually really annoying that it comes up it seems just about every other thread these days.  :P

Especially when they're being compared to other corporations as if those other corporations are without sin or guilt. Not one of those three are "good" examples, with the exception of Ninty putting out Mario Maker being arguably one of the best things they've ever released.

-If Konami's guilty of ignoring/mistreating their "biggest" IP, then so's Capcom since they've done roughly the same kind of thing to wee Mega.

-Ninty smothered AM2R in its crib as soon as it got home from the maternity ward, and thought Federation Force was a good idea. Not really "keeping the core" when you botch your official stuff and kill the fan stuff that does it better than you.

-Squeenix? Keeping the "core" of its franchises? Ha. I'm sure all the oldschool FF players would agree with you there. Make everyone stupidly pretty, make everything all shiny and wow and keep the same kind of combat system they've been regurgitating since Crisis Core but with one slight difference this time? I don't think so, though this is subjective as hell as to what "core" means. Same deal here--some fans went to do a better CT remake than Squeenix did, Squeenix killed it before it even left the womb. But they know how to "rework" their stuff and retain the "core" of what made us love it? Sure doesn't seem that way.

Not every thread is a "Konami sucks" soapbox.

Perhaps we should just start a general Konami complaint thread to corral it all into one place, rather than having it bog up every other thread like it has been for ages now?
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on June 03, 2017, 03:58:53 AM
If I am not mistaken, there was a Konami sucks thread before.
But technically all video game companies have their bad days, some just have way more of those than others.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: DragonSlayr81 on June 07, 2017, 03:43:15 PM
Maybe the castle ruins under Celia's replica actually belong to Walter's  Castle.
I always held on to this theory, even back when DoS was released. I saw a lot of the areas within Celia's castle to be modern versions of the areas in Walter's Castle (House of Sacred Remains -> Dark Chapel, Anti-Soul Mysteries Lab -> Wizardry Lab, Ghostly Theater -> Demon Guest House, Dark Palace of Waterfalls -> Subterranean Hell, and Garden Forgotten by Time -> Garden of Madness). The Lost Village was built in an area that was formerly the Forest of Eternal Night (over 1000 prior, thus without the veil and threat of monsters, people built a town within that grew to a nice size). I'd think Subterranean Hell is the 1000 year old ruins of what is left of Dark Palace of Waterfalls after Walter's Castle crumbled (hence a lot of it is submerged and structures have been water-worn for a millennium). I also think the Condemned Tower was built over where the Prison of Eternal Torture once was, and the Mines of Judgement were an extended portion of the Prison that remained intact, and perhaps excavated sometime int he 1000 after LoI (Forgotten One's chamber, however, remained demolished and buried).

Though the first hint I got (even though it is likely do to just reusing assets) is that both LoI and DoS use the same render art of the Walter's Castle:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d5/db/83/d5db8374e413cf050b5811c029bb283d.jpg) (https://r.mprd.se/fup/up/46192-Castlevania_-_Dawn_of_Sorrow_(U)(Legacy)-1.png)
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Aria on June 18, 2017, 11:17:15 PM
I always held on to this theory, even back when DoS was released. I saw a lot of the areas within Celia's castle to be modern versions of the areas in Walter's Castle (House of Sacred Remains -> Dark Chapel, Anti-Soul Mysteries Lab -> Wizardry Lab, Ghostly Theater -> Demon Guest House, Dark Palace of Waterfalls -> Subterranean Hell, and Garden Forgotten by Time -> Garden of Madness). The Lost Village was built in an area that was formerly the Forest of Eternal Night (over 1000 prior, thus without the veil and threat of monsters, people built a town within that grew to a nice size). I'd think Subterranean Hell is the 1000 year old ruins of what is left of Dark Palace of Waterfalls after Walter's Castle crumbled (hence a lot of it is submerged and structures have been water-worn for a millennium). I also think the Condemned Tower was built over where the Prison of Eternal Torture once was, and the Mines of Judgement were an extended portion of the Prison that remained intact, and perhaps excavated sometime int he 1000 after LoI (Forgotten One's chamber, however, remained demolished and buried).

Though the first hint I got (even though it is likely do to just reusing assets) is that both LoI and DoS use the same render art of the Walter's Castle:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d5/db/83/d5db8374e413cf050b5811c029bb283d.jpg) (https://r.mprd.se/fup/up/46192-Castlevania_-_Dawn_of_Sorrow_(U)(Legacy)-1.png)

First, this thread  - map, history and explanations is like... WOW.. .*mind-blown*
Seriously, I love when one can find so much connections in such simple and little details in the games. The map connection was superb, especially when I played LOI as my first Castlevania way back in the day (and played it over & over beyond a dozen times, to the point of probably burning it, lol) and played DOS several times also and did not notice this small detail, although the map in Yoko's room nagged at me as looking familiar - like I've seen it in another CV game.

But the above castle image comparisons, just sheer amazing! The similarities cannot go unnoticed. It's seriously impressive, along with the location/stage comparisons makes a lot of sense. It's a really impressive comparison with both games!
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: zangetsu468 on June 19, 2017, 05:35:47 AM
The only thing that nags at me with LOI's castle being DOS' castle is it being described as a "towering replica of Dracula's Castle" (which I believe is stated on the back of the box) purely given that LOI's Castle is largely not believed to be Dracula's Castle. Maybe this is simply a translation issue, but it adds to the fact I've never thought of LOI's castle as "towering", I can only recall an actual tower/ outer wall in one part of the game (where you fight the optional boss and receive the lightning whip) and I thought the place was relatively regular aside from Pagoda.

I won't however deny the similarities between the two, it's possible they just rebuilt it upon the ruins or it was rebuilt in the past and used by Celia's cult.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: theplottwist on June 19, 2017, 05:49:22 AM
The only thing that nags at me with LOI's castle being DOS' castle is it being described as a "towering replica of Dracula's Castle" (which I believe is stated on the back of the box) purely given that LOI's Castle is largely not believed to be Dracula's Castle. Maybe this is simply a translation issue, but it adds to the fact I've never thought of LOI's castle as "towering", I can only recall an actual tower/ outer wall in one part of the game (where you fight the optional boss and receive the lightning whip) and I thought the place was relatively regular aside from Pagoda.

I won't however deny the similarities between the two, it's possible they just rebuilt it upon the ruins or it was rebuilt in the past and used by Celia's cult.

The castle did crumble at the end of Lament, and there's almost 1000 years until Dawn. They would have to rebuild it.

The "replica" thing is not a translation issue. IGA referred to it as a replica of Dracula's Castle himself, but the game explains that the "replica" part is on the "Demon Castle" part, not on the "Dracula's Castle". Celia is trying to make the castle into a replica of Dracula's Castle by turning it into a Demon Castle, like Dracula's was.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: zangetsu468 on June 19, 2017, 07:33:04 AM
The castle did crumble at the end of Lament, and there's almost 1000 years until Dawn. They would have to rebuild it.

The "replica" thing is not a translation issue. IGA referred to it as a replica of Dracula's Castle himself, but the game explains that the "replica" part is on the "Demon Castle" part, not on the "Dracula's Castle". Celia is trying to make the castle into a replica of Dracula's Castle by turning it into a Demon Castle, like Dracula's was.


DoS' Castle does feel more regimented than AoS'. Even comparing the maps it's quite evident that this is the case. I also don't think they included the map on Yoko's room for no good reason and the parallels with LOI's castle leads me to believe this is the case.
Title: Re: The Map on Yoko's Room
Post by: Aria on June 26, 2017, 12:49:19 AM

DoS' Castle does feel more regimented than AoS'. Even comparing the maps it's quite evident that this is the case. I also don't think they included the map on Yoko's room for no good reason and the parallels with LOI's castle leads me to believe this is the case.

It's true that DoS' Castle feels more regimented. If one compares the AOS & DOS castles, AOS' castle is more 'mystical' & 'unstable' with places like the Floating Gardens, and Forbidden Area which even houses a ghost ship within (I thought that to be an awesome reference to other Castlevania series like DXC, etc.).

The biggest takeaway between both is that AOS' castle houses the Chaotic Realm where Chaos itself was located - the source of all chaos and Dracula's own power, while in the DOS' castle was the Abyss - a place similar to Hell and possibly the closest place to be able to connect to the Chaotic Realm which would be needed to convert the castle Celia was using into Castlevania itself. Yet, the DOS' castle has more locations & references to LOI's castle, back when it was in the forest of Eternal Night, which could now be the Lost Village.