The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Super Waffle on May 27, 2017, 09:02:15 PM
Title: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Super Waffle on May 27, 2017, 09:02:15 PM
According to Castlevania lore from the PS2-era games, Dracula start out as a dude named Matthias and turned into a vampire out of vengeance for his dead wife Elisabetha. And in the 1992 Dracula movie, Dracula turned himself into a vampire to avenge his dead wife Elisabeta. So I'm pretty sure that's where Konami stole the character from.
Does that mean Keanu Reeves is part of Castlevania canon too?
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: chainsawmidget on May 27, 2017, 11:04:41 PM
Quote
Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Yes. In fact,more games need Winona Ryder.
Quote
Does that mean Keanu Reeves is part of Castlevania canon too?
No. Just Winona.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: AlexCalvo on May 27, 2017, 11:07:27 PM
I strongly believe that Bloodlines' connection to the Dravula novel was direct response to the Bram Stoker's Dracula movie and its success. So... in a way?
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Guy Belmont on May 27, 2017, 11:58:49 PM
Well id have to say yes as its is based off his history, and the other legends that came about.
Unlike the film he married twice. first one died during the war in 1462 Legend states she threw herself off the tower into the Argeş River. and so he got married again.
But seeing as Elisabeta and Elisabetha are very similar so i think that IGA liked the idea. and the film is sort of part of the whole legend of Dracula now.
I must say i love the idea of Winona Ryder being part if the canon.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 28, 2017, 02:15:35 AM
I don't think so. The book is what Bloodlines is paying tribute to, not the movie. The book is actually a bit different and ends differently.
Although I do see Mina from AOS/ DOS is a clear reference to Mina Harker.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on May 28, 2017, 02:21:27 AM
I don't think so. The book is what Bloodlines is paying tribute to, not the movie. The book is actually a bit different and ends differently.
Although I do see Mina from AOS/ DOS is a clear reference to Mina Harker.
Because Mina Hakuba sounds absolutely different from Mina Harker in a thick Japanese accent. No possible connection there at all mate. Why would you possibly believe something so readily debunk-- oh wait.
;)
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 28, 2017, 07:48:26 AM
Because Mina Hakuba sounds absolutely different from Mina Harker in a thick Japanese accent. No possible connection there at all mate. Why would you possibly believe something so readily debunk-- oh wait.
;)
I don't understand what the implication is here, because I thought my post was clear. The events of the movie are not exactly the same as the events of the novel.
- Are Mina Harker/ Hakuba connected by one referencing the other's name? Yes - Does the "Elisabetha was reincarnated into Mina Harker" twist from the film have its place in CV? No, the events of the book and film aren't exclusive.* *One of the reasons I state that the film is not canon is due to the way Vlad Tepes is presented. His wife Elisabetha is obviously not the same woman from LOI. The film's backstory also obviously differs from the CV universe being that this particular backstory given its context should actually be referencing Lisa in the CV universe, not Elisabetha. In addition, the start of the film shows Vlad stabbing the cross which starts to bleed, and offers an explanation about how he became "unholy" or anti-Christ so to speak, which directly conflicts with LOI's backstory. However, none of this is mentioned in the original novel, which doesn't conflict with the Castlevania's canon either). - The book is explicit about Quincy's death and how/ why he died killing Dracula. While I don't recall the ending to the film my memory tells me it was different to the novel.
I know your stance on this BA, I don't believe Elisabetha (from LOI) was reincarnated into Mina Harker or subsequently into Mina Hakuba.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Lumi Kløvstad on May 28, 2017, 08:23:38 AM
I don't understand what the implication is here, because I thought my post was clear. The events of the movie are not exactly the same as the events of the novel.
- Are Mina Harker/ Hakuba connected by one referencing the other's name? Yes - Does the "Elisabetha was reincarnated into Mina Harker" twist from the film have its place in CV? No, the events of the book and film aren't exclusive.* *One of the reasons I state that the film is not canon is due to the way Vlad Tepes is presented. His wife Elisabetha is obviously not the same woman from LOI. The film's backstory also obviously differs from the CV universe being that this particular backstory given its context should actually be referencing Lisa in the CV universe, not Elisabetha. In addition, the start of the film shows Vlad stabbing the cross which starts to bleed, and offers an explanation about how he became "unholy" or anti-Christ so to speak, which directly conflicts with LOI's backstory. However, none of this is mentioned in the original novel, which doesn't conflict with the Castlevania's canon either). - The book is explicit about Quincy's death and how/ why he died killing Dracula. While I don't recall the ending to the film my memory tells me it was different to the novel.
I know your stance on this BA, I don't believe Elisabetha (from LOI) was reincarnated into Mina Harker or subsequently into Mina Hakuba.
Actually on this my stance is that I think Mina Hakuba is Mina Hakuba and trying to rejigger canon such that she's somehow Elisabetha or Lisa's or Mina Harker's reincarnation is frankly a load of overly contrived horse manure. The only one explicitly stated to be a reincarnation is Soma, and I think that is the decision that best suits the story and the themes it wishes to present. Not to mention that by keeping Mina unconnected to a prior love interest essentially allows Dracula to be saved by "moving on" in a manner -- which is why the reincarnation happened at all.
There's no possible way her name isn't a reference though, which was the point of my earlier sarcasm.
[Edit] Also: why would anyone think Dracula was ever in love with Mina Harker? Seriously, in the book they are literally nothing but bitter to-the-death enemies that Dracula only starts preying on because he realizes the heroes would fall into disarray without her to lead and galvanize them. The book has exactly minus eight billion percent romantic subtext between them. It was a completely stupid and unnecessary addition by Coppola and honestly the film's weakest aspect.
Which is really saying something about a movie that cast Keanu Reeves in a gray wig, now that I think about it. :S
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Dracula9 on May 28, 2017, 08:29:22 AM
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 28, 2017, 10:12:13 AM
@BloodyArperture Fair enough. I'm not disagreeing and I also believe the film was overly altered in certain parts which they didn't need to be. In fact I'm not really sure why this was done, other than thinking it may appeal more to the fairer sex and potentially engage a wider target audience.. Guess that's one for the ages.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Dracula9 on May 28, 2017, 11:15:26 AM
Actually on this my stance is that I think Mina Hakuba is Mina Hakuba and trying to rejigger canon such that she's somehow Elisabetha or Lisa's or Mina Harker's reincarnation is frankly a load of overly contrived horse manure. The only one explicitly stated to be a reincarnation is Soma, and I think that is the decision that best suits the story and the themes it wishes to present. Not to mention that by keeping Mina unconnected to a prior love interest essentially allows Dracula to be saved by "moving on" in a manner -- which is why the reincarnation happened at all.
There's no possible way her name isn't a reference though, which was the point of my earlier sarcasm.
[Edit] Also: why would anyone think Dracula was ever in love with Mina Harker? Seriously, in the book they are literally nothing but bitter to-the-death enemies that Dracula only starts preying on because he realizes the heroes would fall into disarray without her to lead and galvanize them. The book has exactly minus eight billion percent romantic subtext between them. It was a completely stupid and unnecessary addition by Coppola and honestly the film's weakest aspect.
Which is really saying something about a movie that cast Keanu Reeves in a gray wig, now that I think about it. :S
I think AoS Mina is indeed nothing more than a reference in name alone. Maybe a bit of a not-so-subtle "history repeats itself" thing with New Dracula having a New Mina or something.
I think Coppola threw it in to give Big D a more tragic backstory--sure, it could've done just fine with the Elisabetha suicide backstory, but the "Mina looks like her/is her reincarnation" aspect hammers the point (stake?) home even more (not to say it's necessary to do so, mind). Factor that in with the whole "redeemed by death at the hand of his lover whose death caused all of this" ending and I think we have a plausible enough reason why that whole bit of nonsense is present.
Also, it's the grey wig you're concerned about?
IT IS HIM
HE IS YOUNG AGAIN
GUAHHHHHH
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: X on May 29, 2017, 04:17:26 AM
Quote
- The book is explicit about Quincy's death and how/ why he died killing Dracula. While I don't recall the ending to the film my memory tells me it was different to the novel.
In the movie Quincy was climbing up to the box that held Dracula when one of the Count's Gypsies came up behind him and stabbed him in the back. After a scuffle with said gypsy and Dracula busting out of his box, Quincy charged Dracula--shoving his bowie knife right into his heart. Then Dracula backhands Quincy onto the ground, and later Quincy dies from his stab wound while Dr. Steward is beside him. In terms of the Castlevania connection, Quincy is (from what I remember) the only member of the Belmont clan to die whilst battling Dracula.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: DraculaCronqvist on May 29, 2017, 08:57:27 AM
While I really, really like the movie, I always thought it had nothing to do with the Castlevania game series. It just borrowed elements from the movie, but that's all, really. After all, plot devices such as Dracula wanting Mina because he loves her would not fit into Castlevania anymore.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: zangetsu468 on May 29, 2017, 09:25:40 AM
In the movie Quincy was climbing up to the box that held Dracula when one of the Count's Gypsies came up behind him and stabbed him in the back. After a scuffle with said gypsy and Dracula busting out of his box, Quincy charged Dracula--shoving his bowie knife right into his heart. Then Dracula backhands Quincy onto the ground, and later Quincy dies from his stab wound while Dr. Steward is beside him. In terms of the Castlevania connection, Quincy is (from what I remember) the only member of the Belmont clan to die whilst battling Dracula.
I think a part of this scene was dramatised for the movie. In my mind, Dracula never "busted out" of his box in the novel. Quincy simply stabbed him with a bowie knife, but died because of the injuries caused by the gypsies who were carting Dracula's coffin.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: AlexCalvo on May 29, 2017, 09:41:35 AM
I think this movie had a lot more of an impact on the series than some people here would like to admit. I mean the whole Dracula/ reincarnation element of the series was almost definitely a reaction to this movie. And while I don't necessarily think Mina Hakuba is a reincarnation of Elizabetha/Lisa/Mina Harker, or any combination there in. I do think it is something that is intentionally supposed to cross our mind. And like I said earlier, this movie was likely at least 90% the reason they went and connected the novel so heavily into the continuity.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Dracula9 on May 29, 2017, 09:50:57 AM
Oh, if it wound up being confirmed that there was no reference to '93 Dracula I would be pretty fucking surprised.
Dracula origin story about a wife named Elisabetha dying tragically and making him pissed off at God and going immortal to spite him?
That be just a mite too specific to me to just be concidence.
I can't say I feel the same about the Dracula revival cycle, though. Evil demon overlords returning from life either by natural evils or by cultists killing fools to wake them up have been around long before Coppola made monster movie history.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: TatteredSeraph on May 29, 2017, 11:28:37 AM
I've always read into it that Mina Hakuba is the reincarnation of Mina Harker, who is in turn Lisa, and before her, Elisabetha's reincarnations, with Bram Stoker's Dracula's take directly seen as the version of the story that feeds into the Castlevania series. To me, it feels like it was a big source of inspiration for Iga on those aspects, such as in LoI, etc. Yes, Keanu's acting is incredibly hammy, but Gary Oldman is a magnificent Dracula, and the film does make a good effort of linking the original Vlad Tepes and Count Dracula the vampire, which not all Dracula stories have done, and linking the real Dracula's alleged history and Mina Harker makes for a more interesting tale, with more motivations. With Mina Hakuba, the way that Soma reacts in responce to Mina being in danger, potentially kiled (as in DoS) is to start going vampire Lord mode - a subconcious reaction to knowing that the love of his life is in danger. This all ties in nicely as well with the links to Lisa in SotN, as in the reported history of Vlad Tepes, following the death of his first wife ('Elisabetha'?), he married Ilona Szilagyi, a relative of Matthias Corvinus of Hungary.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: AlexCalvo on May 29, 2017, 02:02:17 PM
Oh, if it wound up being confirmed that there was no reference to '93 Dracula I would be pretty fucking surprised.
Dracula origin story about a wife named Elisabetha dying tragically and making him pissed off at God and going immortal to spite him?
That be just a mite too specific to me to just be concidence.
I can't say I feel the same about the Dracula revival cycle, though. Evil demon overlords returning from life either by natural evils or by cultists killing fools to wake them up have been around long before Coppola made monster movie history.
I was talking about his reincarnation into Soma, not his ressurectons.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on May 29, 2017, 02:32:31 PM
Even in Dracula Untold, you have him walking around centuries later, and he notices a girl that resembles his anciently-dead wife, that fell from the tower. He asks her her name, and she says "Mina".
So you have:
Matthias with Elisabetha. A tragic death, which starts his quest to find a way to defy Death and Mortality, seeking out Leon and his ambition with the alchemy dabblings of Walter Bernhardt.
Matthias (as Vlad Dracula III) with an unknown woman, his first wife as Dracula, who threw herself from the Tower ("I would rather have her body be eaten by the fish of the Argeş than be captured by the Turks." Causes him to defy God Himself.
Vlad Dracula III with Ilona Szilágyi a.k.a Jusztina Szilágyi, a fraternal cousin of King Matthias Corvinus of Hungary. "Dracula" 's 2nd wife. If we were trying it all into Castlevania canon, this wife may be fictitious, as she is 'cousin' to the Matthias Corvinus that Matthias Cronqvist seems to be based on.
Vlad Dracula III with Lisa, with whom he has a child named Adrian (somehow), and she is killed by mankind, starting his war with humanity. Lisa is a woman he seems to have fallen in love with, but I am not sure whether they ever exchanged the vows of Marriage. I think he may have just been a visitor to her and her knowledge of medicine and healing, or perhaps magic, is what drew him to her, but love kept him from turning her. Her genuine goodness sparks his hatred for humanity. He has already found a way to defy Death, and was already angry at God. This was the last straw, which drew him to hate Mankind as well. This is when he begins to really dwell in sorcery and witchcraft and becomes a warlock.
Vlad Dracula III (as Vlad Tepes) with Mina Harker. After his many reincarnations, Dracula finds Mina Harker as per the Stoker novel, whom he seems to think is the reincarnation of his original wife (whether that is Elisabetha as Matthias, or his unnamed wife as Dracula III who falls from the tower, we do not know for sure).
Soma Cruz with Mina Hakuba. Even the "Hakuba" surname reminds you of "Harker" a little.
Did I miss any?
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: AlexCalvo on May 29, 2017, 02:39:44 PM
Well, in my own head canon/fanon, Lisa and both Minas are reincarnations of Elisabetha. I figured Soma finally having her is a big part of why he doesn't fall to the dark side. She's his rock, as always.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on May 29, 2017, 02:50:43 PM
Well, in my own head canon/fanon, Lisa and both Minas are reincarnations of Elisabetha. I figured Soma finally having her is a big part of why he doesn't fall to the dark side. She's his rock, as always.
That does provide some nice closure. It wraps up everything neatly in that: -He is redeemed, in the end. No longer has to curse God, as he did good deeds as Soma. -He is forgiven by God, in that in his own special way, he gets to be with his beloved. Causes him to no longer have to defy Death. -He can die in peace, with the love of his life and with the great friends he's made. Causes him to no longer want to war with Mankind.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Briraka on May 29, 2017, 07:06:59 PM
I can't say I feel the same about the Dracula revival cycle, though. Evil demon overlords returning from life either by natural evils or by cultists killing fools to wake them up have been around long before Coppola made monster movie history.
I have a feeling the revival cycle was more inspired by the Hammer films more than anything. In those movies, he's always getting resurrected somehow, from some cultist performing a satanic ritual to something as contrived as accidentally getting blood dripped into his frozen body.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: DraculaCronqvist on May 29, 2017, 07:52:11 PM
Even in Dracula Untold, you have him walking around centuries later, and he notices a girl that resembles his anciently-dead wife, that fell from the tower. He asks her her name, and she says "Mina".
So you have:
Matthias with Elisabetha. A tragic death, which starts his quest to find a way to defy Death and Mortality, seeking out Leon and his ambition with the alchemy dabblings of Walter Bernhardt.
Matthias (as Vlad Dracula III) with an unknown woman, his first wife as Dracula, who threw herself from the Tower ("I would rather have her body be eaten by the fish of the Argeş than be captured by the Turks." Causes him to defy God Himself.
Vlad Dracula III with Ilona Szilágyi a.k.a Jusztina Szilágyi, a fraternal cousin of King Matthias Corvinus of Hungary. "Dracula" 's 2nd wife. If we were trying it all into Castlevania canon, this wife may be fictitious, as she is 'cousin' to the Matthias Corvinus that Matthias Cronqvist seems to be based on.
Vlad Dracula III with Lisa, with whom he has a child named Adrian (somehow), and she is killed by mankind, starting his war with humanity. Lisa is a woman he seems to have fallen in love with, but I am not sure whether they ever exchanged the vows of Marriage. I think he may have just been a visitor to her and her knowledge of medicine and healing, or perhaps magic, is what drew him to her, but love kept him from turning her. Her genuine goodness sparks his hatred for humanity. He has already found a way to defy Death, and was already angry at God. This was the last straw, which drew him to hate Mankind as well. This is when he begins to really dwell in sorcery and witchcraft and becomes a warlock.
Vlad Dracula III (as Vlad Tepes) with Mina Harker. After his many reincarnations, Dracula finds Mina Harker as per the Stoker novel, whom he seems to think is the reincarnation of his original wife (whether that is Elisabetha as Matthias, or his unnamed wife as Dracula III who falls from the tower, we do not know for sure).
Soma Cruz with Mina Hakuba. Even the "Hakuba" surname reminds you of "Harker" a little.
Did I miss any?
If that was all actually in the Castlevania canon, that would be one clusterfuck.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Super Waffle on June 02, 2017, 10:31:31 PM
"Let me guess. That guy thinks he's Count Dracula."
- "Well, he's supposed to, but he has multiple personalities. All of them Dracula."
-- "I have 200 murdered wives."
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: zangetsu468 on June 03, 2017, 01:29:32 AM
#ambitionzasaRyder
Title: Re: gary old man
Post by: crisis on June 04, 2017, 03:09:56 AM
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Super Waffle on June 07, 2017, 08:27:54 PM
I've been seriously waiting for someone to make this analogy since OP but now that you've all disappointed me I'll just have to do it myself
Even in Dracula Untold, you have him walking around centuries later, and he notices a girl that resembles his anciently-dead wife, that fell from the tower. He asks her her name, and she says "Mina".
While the whole reincarnation thing was popularized by (the misleadingly named) "Bram Stoker's Dracula", I've read that it actually dates back at least to the 1974 adaptation of Dracula which was made by the people who had produced the vampire soap opera "Dark Shadows". And the whole "reincarnated love interest" bit was basically them plagiarizing their own Dark Shadows storyline and sticking it on Dracula. I've never seen that version but here's the trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6jEUmHZfv0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6jEUmHZfv0) I would be interested to know if that's true (I forget where I read it) or if it was an element added in one of the stage plays or something. I can't recall it being a story element in any Dracula movie I've seen that was filmed before 1974.
But yeah "Bram Stoker's Dracula" was THE big Dracula movie throughout the 90s, and arguably still is, with Dracula Untold's lukewarm reception. I think its influence can be felt in the change in direction from monster mash monster movie homage to the slightly more contemplative Anne Rice style we saw in SOTN and beyond. Even the US television commercial for Symphony of the Night directly copied/paid homage to BSD, replacing the cross falling toward the stone ground in slow motion at the start of that movie with a sword falling in slow-mo to stone ground.
Title: Re: Is Winona Ryder part of Castlevania canon?
Post by: Super Waffle on June 08, 2017, 02:35:44 AM
I don't remember Dracula '74 doing any kind of reincarnation plot line. But they did flip the two main girls around, so Mina gets nibbled on first to become the story's sacrificial lamb, while Lucy marries John Harker to become Lucy Harker, and she's the one he's trying to save for the whole last third of the movie. In addition to that, Mina is Mina Van Helsing instead of Mina Murray, so instead of having Arthur face the dilemma of having to stake his new wife to put her out of her misery, it's turned into this whole different melodrama where Van Helsing has to stake his own vampirized daughter.
And the Dracula-Lucy (who, again, is actually this movie's Mina, and Mina is Lucy) dark love scene was directed by the cinematographer who did all the trippy James Bond opening credits in the 60s-70s era.
That particular adaptation of Dracula was kinda weird in a good way. And it's apparently the version Hideyuki Kikuchi was watching when he was writing the original Vampire Hunter D novel.
edit: wait, no, disregard everything I just said. I'm thinking of Dracula '79. I have no idea what Dracula '74 is about.