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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Guy Belmont on September 08, 2018, 12:50:57 PM

Title: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Guy Belmont on September 08, 2018, 12:50:57 PM
I've Replayed AOS and done the whole best ending and all that jazz. but really taking a hard look at the story, I have to think that the whole Chaos thing just robs the count of his role, that there in fact is an evil  being that he gets his power from. I really Feel that IGA was really off about that. 

Dracula is meant to be the most evil being ever, but when one finds out that he in fact has a boss so to speak, it make  one think, "ohh so he's not that great" It would have been SO much better if he had somehow tricked Chaos some how and stole his power, then its Like "shit... he can do that what else can he do"?  In the long running Cv fan Novel  I've been planning that's what I ran with. Making the Dracula a true Horror and force to be reckon with.

I know that  In LOS  that happen in a round about way that happen. But I feel that  for me at least that was a FAR better idea then having Chaos as this being that others draw power from.

 In fact Gabriel's whole quest was about obtaining  again in a round about away. So I mean is this just me, or do others feel that Chaos really Robbed Dracula of his role.
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: X on September 08, 2018, 01:51:48 PM
I kinda felt the same way too. It's quite common in modern Japanese story-telling to have something even bigger and badder then the current villain show up. It was never an issue decades past, but now it seems to be the 'in' thing that everyone is expected to do; even at the expense of our beloved franchises so fondly remembered. Sadly this has leeched into Castlevania as well. The so-called Chaos boss just doesn't wow me as Dracula had. Drac's the quintessential master villain of CV and he's iconic--going back decades to when the first game was released. There's are reasons why he's the King of Vampires and Lord of the Night. And not just in literature and films.
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: theplottwist on September 08, 2018, 02:10:51 PM
On my opinion, I think it gives his role deeper meaning both as villain and as individual.

Chaos is not "someone", a monster or demon, a "dude sitting on a throne", it is a force of human wickedness. Dracula has hinted previous to any IGA involvement that human wickedness is what brings him back. And that in itself was hinted long before that as part of the Dracula legend, that human negligence with faith ("when the power of Christ weakens") causes Dracula to return. In a way, chaos has been there since the beginning, Aria just gave it a name -- though to be honest I think making an aspect of it into a boss you can kill kinda downplays its "force of human nature you can't really do much about" factor.

Dracula is still the greatest evil there is, make no mistake. Chaos' role is just to demonstrate that humanity will never be free of Dracula's shadow while it continues acting like assholes to each other. The theme here is "humans are the real villains and only they can save themselves." Chaos can't even be "defeated", Soma just broke free from HIS part with it in a quite literal enactment of "human was about ot turn into the real villain but ends up saving himself".

Also on my opinion, thinking Dracula is some Satan acolyte or some kind of "minor Satan" robs him much more of his position as evil incarnate than just thinking Dracula taps on humans' own evil to do his thing. LoS did that, made Dracula into "not so evil as HUGE BIG BIG EVIL SATAN DADDY LOOK HOW EVIL HE IS".
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Guy Belmont on September 08, 2018, 03:33:07 PM
On my opinion, I think it gives his role deeper meaning both as villain and as individual.

Chaos is not "someone", a monster or demon, a "dude sitting on a throne", it is a force of human wickedness. Dracula has hinted previous to any IGA involvement that human wickedness is what brings him back. And that in itself was hinted long before that as part of the Dracula legend, that human negligence with faith ("when the power of Christ weakens") causes Dracula to return. In a way, chaos has been there since the beginning, Aria just gave it a name -- though to be honest I think making an aspect of it into a boss you can kill kinda downplays its "force of human nature you can't really do much about" factor.

Dracula is still the greatest evil there is, make no mistake. Chaos' role is just to demonstrate that humanity will never be free of Dracula's shadow while it continues acting like assholes to each other. The theme here is "humans are the real villains and only they can save themselves." Chaos can't even be "defeated", Soma just broke free from HIS part with it in a quite literal enactment of "human was about ot turn into the real villain but ends up saving himself".

Also on my opinion, thinking Dracula is some Satan acolyte or some kind of "minor Satan" robs him much more of his position as evil incarnate than just thinking Dracula taps on humans' own evil to do his thing. LoS did that, made Dracula into "not so evil as HUGE BIG BIG EVIL SATAN DADDY LOOK HOW EVIL HE IS".
But at the end of the day it is still a being, higher than Dracula.  It lives in its own realm, and it has the power to chooses the next Dark lord. That tells me that it can think for its self. 

And again I feel that humans being the real bad guys is even more of a cop out.

And  in the end that's were he ( Dracula) draws his  power from an evil force, like how the Belmonts draw there holy power from God. as I'm to understand One of the Main themes in Cv, is the idea of A force for good and a force for evil.

The Belmonts Represent All that good. choosen By God

While Dracula On the other hand Represent All that is Evil. Choosen By Chaos

Thats  why it robs him of its role. And thats why in my work i have him kill Chaos to take his powers right at the start.

Giving him his own power making him The very inbodyment of evil in the world. And like i said thats sort what they did in LOS and they just did it better, they gave Dracula his own role.

As I heard that IGA  said that every time the count comes back Chaos
sawaps out his personly so he only feels Evil, again showing that once again he is controled by Chaos. Unlike Gabriel or my works Dracula.

Again LOS just did it better.

But i mean thats just what i think but i feel that it takes away from The counts role





Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: theplottwist on September 08, 2018, 05:10:38 PM
Spoiler because yeah.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 08, 2018, 06:10:49 PM
I think OP is misinterpreting the ending. "Chaos" the being is the metaphysical umbilical cord which connects Dracula to the chaos residing within the hearts of men.

In AOS it's represented as an entity existing only in the higher plane of Castlevania. I know Plottwist has basically written a dissertation on this so I'm not delving any further.

Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Super Waffle on September 08, 2018, 06:38:54 PM
This is like one of those Soul Calibur threads where they debate if Amy and Viola are the same person.
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Guy Belmont on September 08, 2018, 06:50:03 PM
Spoiler because yeah.

(click to show/hide)
Right, Right I've put this very badly,  the way I've understand it is

Chaos is satan in the world Of CV, he wickedness , born from humans or not is still an evil force and the count gave in to that  force.
But that force is still calling to everyone. so it does have will.
So even if humans give birth to it,  it sill has a goal their for it still must  think for its self. and its trying to find someone to do its bidding. The count heard the call and came to it.  But in the end it was still chaos will and plan its way of livening.
 thats what i always saw it as.
This is not me being "come at me bro"  I just what to understand.
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: theplottwist on September 08, 2018, 06:57:33 PM
This is not me being "come at me bro"  I just what to understand.

Oh no, I didn't see it like that. I hope I didn't come off like that either. It's all good :)
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Guy Belmont on September 08, 2018, 06:59:59 PM
Oh no, I didn't see it like that. I hope I didn't come off like that either. It's all good :)
No, god no. its just sometime hard on the internet  show ones meaning.
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Dracula9 on September 08, 2018, 08:57:31 PM
there's a much easier way to explain chaos, assuming you're familiar with berserk

CV's chaos is very nearly literally the same as berserk's idea of evil, right down to dracula's choice and relationship to chaos being almost identical to griffith's in this frame of reference
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: BLOOD MONKEY on September 08, 2018, 09:02:19 PM
there's a much easier way to explain chaos, assuming you're familiar with berserk

CV's chaos is very nearly literally the same as berserk's idea of evil, right down to dracula's choice and relationship to chaos being almost identical to griffith's in this frame of reference

dracula is still a more likeable character than griffith
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Dracula9 on September 08, 2018, 09:14:05 PM
dracula is still a more likeable character than griffith

debatable
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 09, 2018, 06:16:28 AM
dracula is still a more likeable character than griffith

I don't believe Dracula is as likeable, he's more iconic because he's been around for a lot longer. But Griffith is the ultimate antagonist to any series, he is layers of complexity wrapped in an enigma, adorned in shiny armour that is causality.

This is why I like Mathias, he is no Griffith, but unlike Vlad, he wasn't born into nobility waiting to inherit a throne. He was a human who has acquired god-like powers through his own means.

There's a lot to like about characters with a strong enough will to rival deities and gods. (yes, we like Belmonts and Guts too)
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Nagumo on September 09, 2018, 07:21:07 AM
I'm going to be contrarian and offer my own interpretation of the Dracula-Chaos relationship. Simply put, I think the games suggest Chaos is Dracula's evil side, which is being fed by humanity's negative emotions. I don't think it's accurate to say Chaos is a higher being who manipulates Dracula. However, the two did become seperated after the 1999 event, after which Chaos awaited the return of Soma, so the the two could become whole again. The opening of AoS alludes as such: "The pitch black sun is holding chaotic darkness together, trying to rouse a sleeping soul as if looking for its missing other half...  "
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: X on September 09, 2018, 08:50:18 AM
Quote
This is why I like Mathias, he is no Griffith, but unlike Vlad, he wasn't born into nobility waiting to inherit a throne. He was a human who has acquired god-like powers through his own means.

Dracula in the Bram Stoker novel also obtain powers through his own means after losing his wife to suicide. And if I'm not mistaken Mathias would have had to be born of some form of nobility or high ranking social status in order to acquire the position that he was in LoI. No commander of an army during that time period was going to hire a lower class man with no battle experience to become his most trusted tactician during one of history's most bloodiest wars.
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Nagumo on September 09, 2018, 08:56:29 AM
Dracula in the Bram Stoker novel also obtain powers through his own means after losing his wife to suicide. And if I'm not mistaken Mathias would have had to be born of some form of nobility or high ranking social status in order to acquire the position that he was in LoI. No commander of an army during that time period was going to hire a lower class man with no battle experience to become his most trusted tactician during one of history's most bloodiest wars.

He was already a count during the time of LoI.
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Shinobi on September 09, 2018, 09:47:49 AM
Dracula in the Bram Stoker novel also obtain powers through his own means after losing his wife to suicide. And if I'm not mistaken Mathias would have had to be born of some form of nobility or high ranking social status in order to acquire the position that he was in LoI. No commander of an army during that time period was going to hire a lower class man with no battle experience to become his most trusted tactician during one of history's most bloodiest wars.

I thought Dracula loosing his wife that drives him to become a vampire was only brought up in Coppola's 1992 movie adaptation, correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Nagumo on September 09, 2018, 09:56:36 AM
I thought Dracula loosing his wife that drives him to become a vampire was only brought up in Coppola's 1992 movie adaptation, correct me if I'm wrong.

That's right. And contrary to what many people say, Dracula isn't Vlad Tepes in the original novel, but rather a descendant
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: zangetsu468 on September 09, 2018, 09:57:01 AM
Dracula in the Bram Stoker novel also obtain powers through his own means after losing his wife to suicide. And if I'm not mistaken Mathias would have had to be born of some form of nobility or high ranking social status in order to acquire the position that he was in LoI. No commander of an army during that time period was going to hire a lower class man with no battle experience to become his most trusted tactician during one of history's most bloodiest wars.

He was already a count during the time of LoI.

Be that as it may, there's still a large gap between a Count and a King.

I thought Dracula loosing his wife that drives him to become a vampire was only brought up in Coppola's 1992 movie adaptation, correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't specifically recall this brought up in the novel either.
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: theplottwist on September 09, 2018, 01:37:34 PM
I'm going to be contrarian and offer my own interpretation of the Dracula-Chaos relationship.

I don't think that's being contrarian at all. It even uses the power of Dominance to challenge Soma's, as if it were wrestling the control from him. The rotating thing being the evil will of Dracula makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Chaos And Dracula
Post by: Guy Belmont on September 09, 2018, 03:00:02 PM
That's right. And contrary to what many people say, Dracula isn't Vlad Tepes in the original novel, but rather a descendant
Right it in fact does say this
(click to show/hide)

So this Lead one to think that it is his own race so it could be an ancestor. how ever then this is said

(click to show/hide)

Then in  Chapter 25 Both Mina and van helsing both talk about if the count was the same person that battled the turks, or it was one of his one of his race, that again could be an ancestor.

Its also worth  noting that to stoker came across the name Dracula, when he was look at Romanian history, and picked this name the F******  bad name  Count Wampyr. Also there was never in talk of Vlad III in his notes on the book.

So what i take from this is that, he wanted to the keep Count Dracula separate from Vlad III. But at the same time keep some mystery. So i have to say that i always saw him as the same, but its one of thsoe things thats never been confirmed.