Topic: The Death of Iga (he's not actually dead, guys), and Fanon Discontinuity

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Help me here: What do you think, on Dawn of Sorrow, that flies in the face of all established series logic?

Help me understand the issue.

I dislike DoS' style of narrative and animu themes, but I don't see where are the contradictions. Let's work them over and discover what the issue is, objectivelly speaking.

I'd love to do so over PM but I'd like to keep this thread "complete". I've kind of said what I've wanted to say here, and feel better for having done so. But you've always had a good eye for explanations, so PMing would be awesome.

Honestly, I think it's fine if you want to ignore certain parts of canon... as long as you clearly acknowledge and mark it as your personal fanon. Personally, what's important for me is the clear distinction between canon and fanon so that the lines don't get blurred and fanon gets mistaken for canon (looking at you, Touhou fans).

Admittedly, a bit more than half the time I don't preface things as well as I should. I'll accept, for instance, that Dawn happens in canon and discuss it with someone all live long day (or until I get bored and start playing Skyrim), but as far as my personal reckoning goes, it's a gaiden "what-if" tale.

Tough luck CV isnt your series, it's Konami's. Go find something else or write something yourself author. And probably theplottwist headcanon version of events is better than yours anyway.

1. True
2. I did and it was AWESOME (and makes more than a few nods to Castlevania) and I'm on track to publish later this year.
3. Probably, but how about you twist that knife a little more while it's there? 

[theplottwist]

I'd love to do so over PM but I'd like to keep this thread "complete". I've kind of said what I've wanted to say here, and feel better for having done so. But you've always had a good eye for explanations, so PMing would be awesome.

Just send your points over PM.

To be clear, what I'm setting out to do here is explain the context of your issues IF there is one. I'm not agreeing to debating subjective matters ("this animu bullshit is terrible") because there really can't be any resolution. What I'm agreeing to do is to do exactly what I always do: Point out details, explain them in the big context of the canon and use sources to back it all up.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

Just send your points over PM.

To be clear, what I'm setting out to do here is explain the context of your issues IF there is one. I'm not agreeing to debating subjective matters ("this animu bullshit is terrible") because there really can't be any resolution. What I'm agreeing to do is to do exactly what I always do: Point out details, explain them in the big context of the canon and use sources to back it all up.

I'm interested in this as well, why not elaborate on your point here The Bloody Aperture?

It does pertain to the topic discussion at hand after all so a pm should not be necessary, I'm curious how it contradicts the established mythos as well.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Boy I'm probably going to see my ancestors for this.

Word for word the PM I sent:

Okay, so my biggest standing issue is the discarding of the Candidates theory that Aria introduced and that Dawn shoots down in flames.

I can buy Alucard's assertion that anyone can become what Dracula was -- this is something that Lament explained very well. But I DO believe that the story simultaneously tries to hammer home that various aspects of Dracula ARE reincarnated (not resurrected, but proper reincarnation), and so these people are those we call "dark lord candidates" who by the nature of their birth take to the role with far greater ease than Jim Bob the 56 year old IT technician who lives in a bachelor pad apartment. Furthermore, Soma, Dmitrii, Dario and Graham all exhibit traits that are fundamental to the being we know as Dracula, which I have covered previously. This is something that was also done in the Final Fantasy VII universe with Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo all being "candidates" for Sephiroth's role but each emphasizing a different aspect of him, so it's very little trouble for me to see how Dawn of Sorrow would work with a similar theme, especially given that Final Fantasy VII is a tremendously influential series that Iga (by virtue of working in the avenues he does) couldn't possibly be unaware of or unaffected by.

But instead, the game builds this up for the whole duration and then during the last lines of dialogue calls it patently bullshit when it seems most obvious that both angles are true and not mutually exclusive.

[SecretWeapon]

1. True
2. I did and it was AWESOME (and makes more than a few nods to Castlevania) and I'm on track to publish later this year.
3. Probably, but how about you twist that knife a little more while it's there? 

1- Yes.
2- I doubt it
3- See 2. And change that ridiculous signature ffs

[Lumi Kløvstad]

And change that ridiculous signature ffs

Gonna embrace my inner child here.
It's not changing until I get bored with it.

And mostly because I don't like being demanded to do things by rude people who don't bother with asking nicely.

PlotTwist and DarkPrinceAlucard are reasonable guys who, while stern and more than willing to backhand me in the face with some humble pie when I need it most, asked nicely for engagement. It makes me want to play ball by their terms and conditions much more than you demanding I do something to suit your tastes. I'll grant this is slightly hypocritical of me given past remarks I've made, but nobody's perfect and improvement is an ongoing process.
Don't be like me.
Be like PlotTwist and DarkPrinceAlucard.

Inner child rant done.

[Edit] I did pare the sig down some though.

[zangetsu468]

So basically you don't like how other people aside from plottwist and alucard are speaking to you, yet you can shit canon, which is a historically cemented set of transpired events and reasoning by the creators? That's funny to me, not in the "ha ha" sense.

You can believe whatever you wish, I personally don't believe your beliefs will change because people are asking nicely, nor do I have vested  interest in seeing others change. It's not what this is about imo. If people don't want to believe the canon, they don't have to. I simply haven't seen reasoning to the tier of your Other M theory (which I've praised btw) in doing so.

Plottwist raised that he thought this was a 'lazy' attempt to subvert the canon by using fancy words and writing peoples eyes off. I tend to agree with this line of reasoning. I'm all for embracing differences, however, your last post basically said "screw the canon and all who believe it", which is not the correct way to approach it imo. There needs to be logical reasoning, not just an endless sea of words.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

So basically you don't like how other people aside from plottwist and alucard are speaking to you, yet you can shit canon, which is a historically cemented set of transpired events and reasoning by the creators? That's funny to me, not in the "ha ha" sense.

You can believe whatever you wish, I personally don't believe your beliefs will change because people are asking nicely, nor do I have vested  interest in seeing others change. It's not what this is about imo. If people don't want to believe the canon, they don't have to. I simply haven't seen reasoning to the tier of your Other M theory (which I've praised btw) in doing so.

Plottwist raised that he thought this was a 'lazy' attempt to subvert the canon by using fancy words and writing peoples eyes off. I tend to agree with this line of reasoning. I'm all for embracing differences, however, your last post basically said "screw the canon and all who believe it", which is not the correct way to approach it imo. There needs to be logical reasoning, not just an endless sea of words.

Well, I am definitely under the influence of emotions I shouldn't even have given how petty my circumstances are. Honestly, I know I majorly butt heads semi-annually here it seems, and every time I at once feel pissed off and sad at myself at the same time. This is not me asking you to feel sorry for me. This is me attempting to explain me as I am. But needless to say, emotion is a terrible thing for polite discourse. I try to dial it down, but I end up dialing it up instead. These sorts of discussions, I am now convinced, aren't well suited to text because intent and tone come across terribly in that environment. I dunno, maybe if it were video chat this whole thing would have gone smoother, more politely. But now I'm just making things worse by trying to put the Humpty Dumpty I knocked over back together.

That being said, beliefs don't change, as you said, because people ask nicely. But attitude often does. At this point, I'm just tired of the drama I didn't even mean to unleash.

My whole argument meant to start as "canon is great, but don't arbitrarily limit yourself to just one way of looking at things. Read between the lines, form your own conclusions." Which should be my new signature. Screw it, it will be.

And then that somehow mutated into this hot gooey mess and I can't even clearly remember all the particulars of how. I swear to everything I hold dear I don't mean to do this

Anyway, I really wish a mod would come along and lock this damn thread already. What was meant to inspire a friendly but fast paced and intense debate has ended horribly, just like last time. Sorry that this ended such a dramatic and rude disaster.

[zangetsu468]

Anyway, I really wish a mod would come along and lock this damn thread already. What was meant to inspire a friendly but fast paced and intense debate has ended horribly, just like last time. Sorry that this ended such a dramatic and rude disaster.

Why though? The idea is appealing to some of us, but it just needs more thorough researching.
If there's a reason you don't consider certain games canon, I'd much rather hear those, than the canon completely being thrown out the window. I don't think locking the thread is the answer either. All I'm putting forth is "what is the key element to what you're suggesting" i.e. We know you dislike the canon, what will you propose in its stead? This will require a lot of research, but it will be doable.

I don't think you need to apologise, I know I'm certainly not looking for one. I'm just pointing out that you can't deride others' beliefs, not because its a consensus, but because you don't want them deriding yours. That's all.

[Dracula9]

And then that somehow mutated into this hot gooey mess and I can't even clearly remember all the particulars of how. I swear to everything I hold dear I don't mean to do this

Anyway, I really wish a mod would come along and lock this damn thread already. What was meant to inspire a friendly but fast paced and intense debate has ended horribly, just like last time. Sorry that this ended such a dramatic and rude disaster.

This is why we take a step back from emotionally-driven opinions before making attempts to open the floor for discourse and discern whether or not the standing argument is bogged down by over-reliance on subjectivity.

I enjoy debating with you most of the time, but there are certain instances whereupon you regard your opinion(s) as greater in objective value than they are. As previously mentioned, you don't see me constructing my arguments here based on my opinions outweighing the facts--my arguments herein are centered around the objective nature of canon details.

And if you're upset by or ashamed of how much heat has occurred, then you may want to consider stopping this kind of behavior:

And mostly because I don't like being demanded to do things by rude people who don't bother with asking nicely.

To me, the argument is essentially this: holding yourself as beholden to whatever is (currently) canon is like arguing numbers, which presents a finite amount of everything present. It is inherently limited.

Otherwise we trap ourselves into a grey world of "what's your favorite" threads and "let's bash Lords of Shadow for the millionth time".

I'd rather encourage the community to seek "I never thought of it that way" instead of "WELL ACTUALLY...!" because it promotes better longevity and, despite passionate negative feelings in the short term, better health of the fan community as a whole.

Canon is great, but don't arbitrarily limit yourself to just one way of looking at things. Read between the lines, form your own conclusions."

It makes me want to play ball by their terms and conditions much more than you demanding I do something to suit your tastes.

Et cetera, et cetera. I'd quote other posts in other threads for emphasis, but I'm keeping it relevant to this thread alone for clarity's sake. You throw down the gauntlet and then get defensive and accusatory when things don't go your way--all this guarantees is that you're gonna piss people off, something completely counterintuitive to what you claim to be is your endgoal for the fanbase. It's great when you realize you're dug yourself a hole and display open humility, but it shouldn't take a shitstorm for you to be humble about your opinions. Kinda defeats the purpose of humility when it's selective only when you're out of other options.

It's like you went to a biker bar and punched a random dude in the nuts, tipped over all the bikes outside, and told everyone there to fuck off...and then got surprised when a bar brawl started. You get what you give.

Now, let me break down the above quotes just for good measure of explaining what I mean.

And mostly because I don't like being demanded to do things by rude people who don't bother with asking nicely.

1: Most folks here have, at some point or another, granted you the levels of courtesy and tact you seem to be requesting with this assertion. Your unwavering opinions and pontificating of them more likely than not contributed to them feeling their goodwill was wasted, and over time gradually pissed off and frustrated them from dealing with it multiple times.

2: You mean like the guy declaring something factual and objective to be worthless and that his opinion and skills are superior to those who have been doing it for a living for decades?

3: "I don't like being told to fuck off and wish everyone would treat my discussions respectfully, so here's me doing the inverse to them--why are they telling me to fuck off and not treating my arguments the way I'd like???"

4: You get what you give. People react to what you hand them, and if you hand them something shitty you relinquish the right to be taken aback when they react negatively in return. It'd be different if you presented your arguments in a manner that didn't shit on the canon-faithful or narcissize itself as greater than those who created the world and lore long before you had your own thoughts on the matter, and were still being met with the same kinds of responses. But you didn't, so it's not.

To me, the argument is essentially this: holding yourself as beholden to whatever is (currently) canon is like arguing numbers, which presents a finite amount of everything present. It is inherently limited.

Sure, keep making boldfaced assumptions and lumping anyone who values the canon into a "you're inferior to me because you don't think like I do" pen and pointing at them in the village square. That's a good way to get people to treat you and your arguments more tactfully.

Otherwise we trap ourselves into a grey world of "what's your favorite" threads and "let's bash Lords of Shadow for the millionth time".

True, same old shit gets boring, but that's not your call to make. Fans can discuss whatever the hell they want and you don't get to control what subjects are and are not "valuable." This is not 1984 and you are not Big Brother.

I'd rather encourage the community to seek "I never thought of it that way" instead of "WELL ACTUALLY...!" because it promotes better longevity and, despite passionate negative feelings in the short term, better health of the fan community as a whole.

Altruistic and noble as a cause, but again not your call to make. Growth of any community is like evolution--you cannot force it to advance at a faster rate because you're impatient. It is a slow and tedious process that yields the most sensible contextual outcome naturally over time.

Canon is great, but don't arbitrarily limit yourself to just one way of looking at things. Read between the lines, form your own conclusions."

Again with looking down on anyone who disagrees with you. "Form your own conclusions...but if they conflict with mine they're wrong."

It makes me want to play ball by their terms and conditions much more than you demanding I do something to suit your tastes.

Completely hypocrisy. You rubbed another man's rhubarb and now you're surprised he's rubbing back. Not how it works. You don't get to control how people interact with you. All you have control over is how you yourself interact with them, which will affect the inverse over time. You make brazen assumptions and accusations, you reap the repercussions of those being assumed and accused upon.

So all in all you don't like the reception you've gotten. That's fair. You might've started it but it's fair enough to have misjudged the tide and regret taking a dip.

Way I see it, you have two options:

1: Apologize and self-deride in too-late humility, drop off the map for a short period, and then come back and do it all again later as you've done in the past, ensuring the shit will continue again later anyway. You've done it before and it annoys the shit out of me when you have, but it's your decision regardless of what I think of it (boy, doesn't that sentence sound familiar?).

2: Actually look at what you're doing and saying and the effects that has, and make a change in some form or another that counters those effects from happening again. Since people here generally aren't braindead or unmovably prejudiced about X or Y, it should be obvious that reception to your thoughts will be dependent on the manner in which you present them. Do a better job of that, and more favorable results can be expected. It's basic social psychology--you act the mickey, you shouldn't be surprised if the rest of the Disney cast shows up.

It's up to you, in the end. You can apologize and then just do it again later and invalidate that apology, or you can actually try and work on the things you do that piss people off to begin with. Most counterarguments here have less to do with your actual opinion and more the way you presented it, which I think says a lot about the people here.

[Gunlord]

I think it may be good to lock this topic. I don't think anyone was trying intentionally to be disruptive or unproductive, but judging by Bloody Aperture's posts, he's in an irksome state of mind right now and it might be good for him to take a breather for a bit. Other folks would find that relieving too, I think.