Topic: I knew it! Castlevania: Lords of Shadow!(SPOILERS HERE, PLZ USE THE SPOILER TAG)

[The Silverlord]

Gabeula could meet IGA-character in a present-day arcade doing DDR moves (sub-game spinoff here), then we get one of those trippy TV effects and we're into a smokey 1970's disco spin-off where IGA is shaking hips and cracking whip.

Afterwards, Gabeula convinces IGA-character he's still got the moves.  They team up and with his knowledge of the sewers they bust new-age drug-dealing vampire.

There's so much potential here . . .

[Chernabogue]

Gabeula could meet IGA-character in a present-day arcade doing DDR moves (sub-game spinoff here), then we get one of those trippy TV effects and we're into a smokey 1970's disco spin-off where IGA is shaking hips and cracking whip.

Afterwards, Gabeula convinces IGA-character he's still got the moves.  They team up and with his knowledge of the sewers they bust new-age drug-dealing vampire.

There's so much potential here . . .

Isn't that the Blade saga scenario?

[Flame]

Someone needs to make a fangame of this.

[Sumac]

Uh not really. Me and many others have no problem with the canon..

Well, for each it's own.
I don't have problem with the canon either, since I never cared that much about Castlevania storyline (in the begining it was non-existant, in the middle it was random at best and in the end it turn into mess with multiple holes in it and tonnes of aborted lines).
Story in CV is not something realy cleverly thought through. It had multiple posibilities to be better, but it was ruined bu execution. The most obvious offenders are LOI and POR for entirely different reasons.

Who is confused? What is so confusing? Dracula resurrects 100 years with some exceptions, Belmont/other hero rises to stop him & his lackeys. Explain to us what you don't understand? (fyi almost every fictional series has or will have plotholes here & there, get over it)

I never said that canon doesn't make sense. It makes, somewhat, given multiple changes along the road. The real problem I has with CV storyline is that there are multiple questions that was never answered or answered properly. It looked like IGA begin to writing some impoprtant subplot in the game and in the next installment it was completely forgotten without any explanation afterwards for whatever reason. It's confusing and quite silly.
Hence holes in the story.

there's that, and a 1897 game covering Bram Stoker's Dracula would be nice. Also, how about a game starring Soleiyu Belmont? Then there's a game that could explain the passing of VK from Belmont to Morris. How about a game starring Leon's grandson? NO ITS TOO CONFUSINGG

Don't put words into my mpouth, kiddo.
You are the one who got confused.

We are talking about propelry closure for the old timeline at the moment. For doing so there is should be only game - that is the most important story in the whole old CV timeline - 1999 game. That's it.
If old timeline would be continued in any fashion then there could be multiple games set whenever creator will find appropriate, though be ready to face a multiple retcons ahead, if that would be the case.

You, sir, have no imagination. It's called "thinking outside the box," my friend, something MercurySteam needs to learn to do if they don't want all these comparisons to everything else besides Castlevania.

Once again - we talked about closure of the old timeline. Was it so hard to understand form the previous posts?
And actually LOS took quite liberties with CV, so I woudn't call it "thinking in the box".
Though depends on what kind of box you mean.

I feel like I'm debating with Dave Cox with all this bashing of "old castlevania." Is Sumac Dave Cox in disguise or something?

Nope. I am just fan of the series. Like you are. 

So how is a reboot which intentionally contradicts the old timeline rather than use it as a base meant to help un-confuse things then? it doesn't seem all that more helpfull than making another Gaiden game.

Because reboot starts things a new. You can be aware of the previous games in the series, but it's not neccesary.
And gaiden game for the any timeline would be burden for it. Especially for the old timeline that already filled with games that could be / couldn't be put into the main storyline.
And how gaiden game will make old timeline better? If anything it create a new debates aboput "should it be part of the canon or not" and "how to tack this game into main canon".

LoS was taking the easy way out. They just created this Frankenstein's Game thing while the fate of the original continuity was (and still is) unclear. That was a message, regardless if you loved or hated Metroidvania or Classicvania or something else. Add the ignoring of the 25th anniversary to that mix and what do you have? I think Konami is horribly neglecting their series, which is part of the reason they had to "resort" to LoS.

As a owners of the series - it's their right.
As of now I satisfied with the direction of the series.
I don't hold my breath that old timeline someday will see the proper ending. IGA most likely will no do it and Konami will not spend money to please small crowd of storyline fans. Epseciall for the ambitious project like 1999 game, that I think everyone agree with, shouldn't be a small scale project developed by 4 people.
I would like to see the proper ending for the Old canon or maybe continuation of it, but being realistic I don't see how it could be possible with current situation of the series and Konami politics.

[A-Yty]

As a owners of the series - it's their right.

I don't understand why you're stating the obvious. Yes, it's their series and it is in their power to run in to the ground. But as fans of this series, we don't wish for that to happen.

And that "small crowd" consists mainly of people who have played and supported this series for years. Again, I must stress that ignoring that won't lead to good things.

[Sumac]

I don't understand why you're stating the obvious. Yes, it's their series and it is in their power to run in to the ground. But as fans of this series, we don't wish for that to happen.

Certainly.
However, this leads to a problem, when some fans think that any major change will run series into the ground, when there is no signs of it (so far). The worst case scenario is, when some fans think that any approach to the series, that deviates from their ideas, or some formula that was done in the past, is horrible crime and bertrayal of the "series spirit". Some of these people basically become "anti-fans", since after that point they only will criticisize and hate series with passion. And yet they still will go to the fanforums and HATE their former object of love and everyone who disagree with them will be labeled as childish, stupid and generally bad fans.
I knew such people and there are nasty crowd, that should be avoided in any possible way - there is no point to have any discussion with them, it is the same as having discussion with a brick wall.
In the end I am not against to see things that fans wants, but there should be a concern that some fans have very heavy nostalgia goggles, believe that only their vision have right to exist, or simply forget that thinks have changed and doing games the same in the past would not be profitable nor smart in general.

And that "small crowd" consists mainly of people who have played and supported this series for years. Again, I must stress that ignoring that won't lead to good things.

There are still not enough of them to make things truly different.
Small crowds don't make money and if you want quality game and not some cellphone atrocity you should spent quite a lot of them nowadays. So for the big company it's not a big deal to ignore two hundred fans that want them to make games like they used to.

They care about thousands of gamers and, given everything that I stated above, it's much easier to please them rather then speciafically creating a big scale game for the small crowd with ambigious taste. Fans who may even not like it, because it somehow deviates from their fictional ideal of the "True Castlevania".

In the end - big companies could ignore old fans as much as they want to. As for consequences for the franchise - there will be none. Fans only decide things when there are a lot of them and series truly depends on'em. Even then it doesn't mean that company will listen to the big crowd of fans and not change things as they see fit.

[crisis]

Haha, I didn't even know Sumac replied to my post.

Okay I'll bite.

I don't have problem with the canon either, since I never cared that much about Castlevania storyline

If you still talk about it & think about it, you still care about it. Even if you consider it insignificant, you're still taking time out of your day to talk about it on the 'net.

Don't put words into my mpouth, kiddo.
You are the one who got confused.

Just reading between the lines, pal.

If old timeline would be continued in any fashion then there could be multiple games set whenever creator will find appropriate, though be ready to face a multiple retcons ahead, if that would be the case

multiple retcons for what? No game steps on other games shoes, unless it's a direct sequel/prequel.

Once again - we talked about closure of the old timeline. Was it so hard to understand form the previous posts?
And actually LOS took quite liberties with CV,

you're right, by using other games ideas & doing them worse.

Nope. I am just fan of the series. Like you are. 

you promise?

And how gaiden game will make old timeline better?

It could flesh out why the Belmonts are so powerful/feared, give more backstory to the Belnades, why Galamoth wants to take Dracula's throne, etc. Stuff that fans are curious about.

As a owners of the series - it's their right.

As of now I satisfied with the direction of the series.

Sorry to hear that.

I don't hold my breath that old timeline someday will see the proper ending.

I think it'll happen one day. In fact odds are it will eventually happen. Under who's direction is another story.

I would like to see the proper ending for the Old canon or maybe continuation of it,

No you wouldn't.

[A-Yty]

Of course it's easier to appeal to the bigger crowd. That has been pretty much my whole point. But it's not a long term solution. It may boost the sales for as long as aping a couple of successful young series proves effective, but it'll alienate the ones that got hooked into CV in the first place.

You're simplifying by claiming that the fanbase will not accept any changes. Some fans don't, of course. You can just look at the very first Castlevania and compare that to its sequels and see how much it has changed. But it mostly evolved through trial and error and creative experimenting. LoS was different. It was like pulling the emergency break, abandoning the train and catching another one. It was, in a word, desperate.

And there's nothing wrong with nostalgia when it comes to Castlevania. Absolutely nothing. The series could feed on it simply because it's been around a long time and when it was the new kid on the block, it was kind of quirky and different. Nostalgia would be a problem if fan expectations concentrated on it alone. This is kind of what happened with SotN, but its halo of awesomeness has (rightly) began to wane. It's ok to consider it a great game because it is, but when it comes to rejuvenating CV, it should not be the template for future games.

Sure, there might not be a "true castlevania", but that doesn't mean you couldn't make something that comes damn close to it. And it's essentially very simple; do the opposite of what LoS did. Go through this series, see what worked with each installment, think why people became to like those games in the first place and start making the game with the motive of making it fresh yet consistent with its essence. Being lazy and just patching something from Gow etc. is like peeing your pants when it's cold: you'll feel warm for a moment, but eventually you're gonna have to change your smelly pants.

[crisis]

Of course it's easier to appeal to the bigger crowd. That has been pretty much my whole point. But it's not a long term solution. It may boost the sales for as long as aping a couple of successful young series proves effective, but it'll alienate the ones that got hooked into CV in the first place.

Yup. Appealing to one set of fans while disregarding another isn't good business. Their goal should be to please everyone, equally.

I'm sure Sumac will have a rebuttal for all our points, of course. becuz us haterz will never understand & don't like change amirite

[jestercolony]

So, with all the bickering about LoS and taking notice to the sociology experiment that has seemingly ripped the fan base apart, I am ever-so slightly curious as to how others feel and consider this latest installment not a true "Castlevania?" This is something I am not really catching the train with because in full fledged honesty, I think it almost hits the spot and is honestly moving in the right direction, especially as a 3D based type unlike the previous titles we've seen before.

"It plays too much like GoW."  I've played only the two installments of GoW and in hand I do not see it playing in that aspect. I see more so of a technical combat system, lesser puzzle elements and flows better. I honestly don't see it as "It plays too much as GoW"  just because uses a man that wields a chain length weapon to attack foes from a distance  doesn't make it the same thing.  Secondly, the combo system which some of us have used for years was directly developed from Fighters, to be more technical -

Lament of Innocence release date -  October 21st, 2003

March 22, 2005 - God of War release date

Whats the point in this? Hmm, I don't know "lengthy weapon used with a combat system that requires a certain button sequences to be pressed in order to perform combos." hm, mighty close to see who developed the mechanic first. Of course LoI had more cruddy level design, but you have to look at the fact how many enemy types you encounter, the animations for the attacks, orb use and the combat system it self seemed more like how the budget was spent as it seemed IGA was more focused on the combat aspect and making it look decent.

"It reminds me of SoTC" yeah, three times and only three times. I don't see Gabriel riding on horse back on a lengthy world and boring world map with no enemies encounters, no puzzles just to face huge giants that randomly shake to knock you off. SOTC was honestly boring imo and held no real challenge. It seemed Sony only developed this game to see how far they could push a particular game engine and hardware (PS2) to the limits.

That, honestly really isn't a whole lot to compare with a franchise that has been running for 25 years. What sells games such as these are the promotional tools needed in order to capture the eyes of their audience, TV, mags, radio...etc. Not to mention companies will also tour these products to show them off to the fans in order to spark their interest. Now take a look CV in general, take a look how LoS was promoted. There was only one TV add (which was in Japan only, which was honestly a really stupid one.) not to mention MS/Konami did a lot of touring to show this product off at gaming conventions and had a spokesman named David Cox who was all talk, no play. I admit, the combat system in LoS is rather interesting if you think outside of the box and don't rely on LOL Ultimate Shadow or abuse of the dodge mechanic to win your battles then you are in for one heck of an interesting and tactical combat experience and the level design is fantastic.

Then we have a total of 47 enemy types, while in most CV games (especially the RPG ones) have over 100 or so. The platforming wasn't really all that interesting and I don't know who came up with the platforming ideas at MS/Konami, but the truth to the matter is that, if this was a reboot (or whatever they're calling it.) the difficulty is what pissed me off the most.  As for being an old CV vet from the NES days, the entire game should of came alive to only have us want to break our controllers by stage 3.  Take note of how the game start outside of the castle itself and we slowly work out way in to it and then take note to how the music and plot become darker after Chapter 2. Take notice to how the themes go from straight up fairy-happy-go-lucky land to land of dark, grim and gothic feels.  Now we are given these simple puzzle elements (which really don't requite a lot of thinking; which is a good thing because the designers intended for us to get back in to combat as soon as possible) and the platforming.

There had been no real threats to collapsing floor ways/bridges, spikes, monsters such as bats or ravens to knock us off to a bottomless pit of death. The most thing to note is the Music Box, the event in the Abbey (with the trap ceiling) level and of course the gears in the clock tower level. These three  had to be the most interesting platforming experiences that weren't really shined on much which could have increased if only  combined with the balance beams and hook tip grinding we had to do in order to ascend or descend our way in to the abyss.

Secondly, where's the massive waves of undead coming to attack the paladin? There really weren't any real mix ups in enemy's, Greater Lycanthropes + Vampire Warrior's attacking Gabriel while being harassed by zombies. That would of made a more interesting combat experience. What about tiny spiders to web your feet and lock you out during these attacks or falling spike pillars? I mean, the only real thing that was missing had been -what- would of been more increased aspect in the over-all challenge, because we are suppose to be in a castle (later on) with demonic influence, so where are the random objects being thrown at me (candles, chandeliers falling, books...etc...etc.) as I am trying to take on the legion? That honestly would of creepidididid the ef' me out...

Is the matter of the fact why the "hardcore" fan base dislike the game so much because of what happens to the protagonist? I remember years back of us having a discussion of how interesting it would be to play as Dracula himself and we had thought out how awesome it would be. Now we are hit with a game with a technical story line, which the game series was never really known for and are now given the chance that seemingly has a lot of people confused (Because, admit it: Your mind has been blown.) and yet all I see is a perspective of malice from a fan base that seemingly has ripped itself apart due to one game or more games.

[crisis]

So, with all the bickering about LoS and taking notice to the sociology experiment that has seemingly ripped the fan base apart, I am ever-so slightly curious as to how others feel and consider this latest installment not a true "Castlevania?"

this question has been answered about 8,407 times already. everyones answers are in this same thread.

[Flame]

you're right, by using other games ideas & doing them worse.

>Implying Colossus battles weren't more boring and less epic than Titan fights
>Implying LoS Chain swinging creature killing isn't superior to GoW chain swinging creature killing
>Implying Combat cross is not superior to Vampire killer

Son you just went full Dracula.

[crisis]

Hmm I dunno if los chain swinging was better than gow chain swinging. Both styles had prolly an equal amount of advantages...

but VK>CC, because VK can shoot fireballs.

[Flame]

In like, 3 games. the majority of the time, it is just a whip.

Combat Cross is a freaking swiss army whip. It is already in the shape of a crucifix, has a retractable chain for easy carrying,  and available, are a spiked chain with multiple uses, a tip that allows to grapple, and a stake which allows for easy vampire killing or to sink into surfaces to slow a fall or when you are thrown across the ground.

Also, The Combat Cross can shoot a fire stream. I think that's superior to small fireballs.

[crisis]

b-but that's still 3 games more than the Combat Cross was used to stream fire

The CC looks pretty heavy & would be nigh-impossible to swing efficiently in the "real world" (well, same with VK chain whip but it's still somewhat possible). Lucky for Gabriel since he has Belmont Warlord ChromosonesBrotherhood Power & Training that allows him to swing it with ease. however the VK is much easier to carry and can also transform into a morning star.

VK is also a 1000 years old yet still works fine; the CC only lasted a few days [not counting the years prior to LoS, most likely several decades at best) in fact if Rinaldo makes a new "whip" for the sequel it will most likely be an entirely different weapon thus making CC obsolete (which it already is thnx to Gabby). The VK is indestructable and can also turn into flames, shoot fireballs, change colors

CC definately is cooler-looking on the hip, though. In fact some days I wish it was the original VK instead of the leather whip used in the series. I wish I had a replica