Topic: I knew it! Castlevania: Lords of Shadow!(SPOILERS HERE, PLZ USE THE SPOILER TAG)

[Munchy]

Just had to turn off the game after being sent yet again to find some more damn crystal shards.

A lot of things have been rubbing me wrong about this game. I'm kinda seeing some of the stuff the Gamespot review talked about; the camera isn't always terribly helpful which really pissed me off trying to find the stupid aforementioned crystals. The combat... I guess I just gotta adjust from Bayonetta, but I can hardly see what enemies are going to do half the time, and it seems like the only safe thing to do, ever, is the basic three hit combo and dodge because the whip has the stopping power of a small rock. The fact that Gabriel will randomly refuse to move against certain obstacles really, reaaaally tries my patience with it too. Think I'm getting the hang of it a little more though. Platforming seems okay, haven't had a lot of trouble with it outside of the one titan battle so far. I would've complained about the music, as for the first two chapters it felt like I've only heard the stuff in the trailer over and over again (and in a forest? Come ON! How about some ambiance?), but then the one bit with the CV4 waterfall music came in (such a cocktease, it was on for so short a time) and the Lycan whatever city has some new tunes so I'm optimistic about that department.

I'll definitely play some more tomorrow. For whatever reason, Bionic Commando gave me a much better first impression, but I'm willing to give it some more time.

[Omegasigma]

im having mixed feeliings for the game, visually its nice, music score, its lacking imo, the music was one of the series staples, voice acting wise, its great, but still doesnt feel as tradional as some would like i think, of course patrick stewart was a nice touch. i'll continue playing the game and see if my expectations are met

[Valtiel]

I think people really need to lay off the expectations of seeing "old" Castlevania staples in the game.

It's supposed to feel familiar, not consistent. There's a guy, there's a whip, there's Belmonts and castles and Dracula and Death and subweapons and vampires and platforming and puzzles and... that's that.

Cox said that if old Castlevania gamers don't feel shivers playing this game, they failed. Individual judgement will matter here, of course (I felt the chills, for example, but I could see someone not feeling them). However, I think that if I played this feeling it WAS a Castlevania game they would have failed none the less.

It HAD to feel different. It had to do away with the conventions, the music, the hearts, the candles (well they're present to a point).

Wanting the game to feel exactly like a Castlevania game would mean considering the Castlevania formula to be already perfect. Now let's look at that.

Take the combat: no Castlevania game in the entire history of the franchise had anything close to the complexity and fine tuning of LoS' combat. Old Castlevania games generally went from having a single form of attack to having a single form of attack with directional input to having a single form of attack and a different set of weapons. The combat in Castlevania games is traditionally basic - not exactly button-mashy, as it's simple but precision based in most cases, but still primitive. LoS offers possibly the most complex combat system to date bar Bayonetta's one. In a single game you get two attack forms (direct and area of effect) declined into something close to 40 different combos, a dozen air moves, throws, parry and dodge, two different magic systems affecting the outcome of both your moves and your sub weapons and switchable on the fly, and the focus system.
Of course it doesn't exactly feel like Castlevania. It's like going from Mario Brothers to Mario 64 - on steroids.

That's an important thing to consider. It's possible to be faithful to the 2D staples in a 3D transition, but it's not necessarily a good idea. Take hearts. Now imagine playing one of the most impressively designed games yet, with absolutely gorgeous backdrops and realistical architecture and so much graphical detail that some observers wonder if it's pre-rendered stuff... and seeing small hearts drop from boxes when you smash them. Heck, I already find the focus-spheres (which certainly where designed as hearts at some point in development, you can tell it) somewhat distracting despite looking "believable". LoS is a cinematic experience and the fact that it doesn't compromise with its nature to make room for what would frankly be just fanservice is in my opinion welcome.
It is visually different? Possibly, but is that a bad thing? The franchise we love, after being the redhead stepchild of modern gaming, gets an installement that is a possible contender for the role of best looking 3d game on current generation consoles, and all we are capable to do is commenting on whether or not we see hearts around or if it's castle-y enough?

The music. Heck. A good 10% of my iPhone music is Castlavania music, and I got a 32gb model. I've got a dozen remixes of Bloody Tears, from piano versions ripped from Youtube to the most horrible Judgement version. I LOVE Castlevania music, but it is... elevator music. It's catchy, it's perfect for the 2d games, but you can't seriously want something like that in a game like LoS. The classic Castlevania tunes enhance the 2d experience because they're unrelated to what happens onscreen. There's no dramatic action in the 2d games - they're as game-y as it goes. The music doesn't follow the onscreen action, it's meant to give you something catchy to listen to while you move your sprite over the screen dodging small balls of fire and collecting hearts from floating candles. That music is perfect for the goal, but it wouldn't fit a 3d game. In LoS, the music is tailored to the onscreen action. If you got the demo, notice how the music plays when you impale the great warg at the end of the besieged village level. This kind of score is a necessity for a game like this.
Also consider the kind of experience LoS is. It's a very un-game-y game. Now this is something that will put off some players - and if this isn't what you want from Castlevania, than your criticism is probably fully justified. People who don't have the game can't probably understand this part, but once you play the Bog level, and you see the way enemies are introduced, and the pacing followed by the music, and the camera work, and the way cutscenes interrupt the gameplay, you'll see this game is half about the atmosphere.
And now this is something Castlevania NEVER attempted before. Once again, you may dismiss it by saying "Castlevania shouldn't be like that", but be aware that suddenly Castlevania went from something you would realistically expect to see in smartphone gaming to being a 3D game of such atmospherical scope that it makes God of War look like Lament of Innocence in comparison.

The departure couldn't be more dramatic - once again, you go from something that was 98% about the gameplay to something that is completely built around the visual and aural experience and the atmospherical result (that's not to say that LoS lacks gameplay, at all).

This to say - don't expect to fall into LoS and feel at home. You won't. You can't. It's still the same saga, it still is Castlevania, but it's a radically different thing, and my personal opinion is that we should be happy of it because Castlevania wasn't perfect.

I don't wanna spoil the game for you, so I'll just leave it at something you'll see an hour into the game. There's one point where you will enter an abandoned shrine in the middle of the bog, to get your first upgrade. Walk in and soak the atmosphere. Check out the way the vines grow over the crumbling stones, and if you're like me, you'll see how this game captures (declined in a clearly western way) this part of the Castlevania imagery in a way no 2d game did so far. Personally, I love it. Castlevania was never "scary" but it had an aura of melancholy that LoS finally does justice to.

[jediblaster]

BTW- How am I stalking you when I only know of you from seeing you on GF? Please, don't flatter yourself thinking I have any interest in you like that.

I never said you were.  If you read carefully I typed "staked", not "stalked".  My meaning was that I am enjoying this forum a bit more (from lurking) b/c someone can have an opinion which may differ from someone else and for the most part no one on here takes it like the other person just insulted their mother.  That is all.

To continue this discussion though, does this game get better in the overall feel of a castlevania game later on?  As to those who are saying "you should not have had those high expectations", well perhaps not, but at least this game could have carried that mood from the besieged village part through the rest of the chapter.  After all, this is a Castlevania game.  SOTN was a big departure in that "feel" of castlevania based off of the previous installments, but then every metroidvania title after it resembled SOTN, so is it any surprise that fans are going to take what cox said in countless interviews, about how he used the old school castlevanias for inspiration and then even go so far as saying fans of those games are going to get "chills", in a literal way?  

I am sure some have read about the production woes that "the hobbit" has been going through.  Well, at one point it was suggested that to solve the whole labor law dispute thing that production be taken to Europe.  Well, that was met with the criticism that it just wouldn't fit the whole Tolkien experience that was so beautifully created in New Zealand.  I would tend to agree.  Not because Europe could not fell like a Tolkien inspired story (Tolkien was from the UK and wrote the books with his knowledge of his own countryside), but because the first three films were already filmed there and now we have a very good impression of what middle earth looks like based upon that.

So far the only European feel I got was from the 1-1 stage.  RE4 did a great job of capturing a european flavor of what a small community in the hills would look like.  Couldn't it have at least been autumn in those lush green areas?  Remember in SCIV the big autumn leaves hanging down as we entered the castle after fighting the big stone golem.

[Valtiel]

RE4 did a great job of capturing a european flavor of what a small community in the hills would look like.  

That's opening a huge can of worms. As an european with a fair amount of experience of the Spanish countryside, I would say it's an interpretation of Europe that requires a strong suspension of disbelief.
However, if you're referring to things like the shots when you approach the Village Chief house (with the misty environment, gnarled trees, and gloomy buildings), rest assured because LoS feels A LOT like that.


Anyways, I would say the Castlevania "feel" as you describe it is a matter of buildup.

As I said, there's a strong atmosphere of melancholy that I foundt extremely fitting to the saga; the game definitely feels like it's set in late autumn, and even in the brighter moments that is something present. The sun is never bright; the leaves are rarely green (Pan's realm being the stark contrast).
Most broad daylight scenes seem shot either at dawn or sunset, as shown here:



or here:



but most of the time the game's daylight moments seem to represent something between a clear november day or a cloudy early winter one:



That's something I would use to describe the game; November. If you're from Europe and you know the continental november weather, that's how the game feels.


As I said, it's also a matter of buildup. The early levels (and most part of the lycan country) have this definite autumn feel. There's a beauty in the nature that isn't yet very sinister (sort of fitting how lycans and nature mix), more sad/melancholic. Then things escalate and even outdoor areas start looking like this:




The second part of the game (the vampire land) is very castlevania-ish for obvious reasons, from the castle to the outdoor climbing areas to the pseudo-sewers etc.

The last part is well, the biggest departure imho. I like that they didn't go for a full blown "hellish" level because it would have felt out of place (there's a beautiful aura of sadness over the game, and going for something like that would have ruined it). I like the Necromancer land a lot, but if something feels "new" in the areas of the game, it's probably this. We're used to end games in a castle, while this time the last part is mostly outdoors.

[shelverton.]

I was gonna buy the game, and then... I didn't.
I picked up Assassin's Creed 2 instead for about 16$   Dunno what happened.
I do this all the time: I have the cash to pick up a brand new game, and then I see all these other, cheaper games I haven't played yet.  

[Valtiel]

I was gonna buy the game, and then... I didn't.
I picked up Assassin's Creed 2 instead for about 16$   Dunno what happened.
I do this all the time: I have the cash to pick up a brand new game, and then I see all these other, cheaper games I haven't played yet.  

Assassin's Creed 2 is like the only game this generation that I didn't manage to finish  . I admit I tend to find sandbox games a little tedious (generally I have a blast at the start, spend way too much time sandboxing, and then I'm bored to tears when it's time to finish the story missions), but AC2 did take boredom to a whole new level. I got to Venice and I had to stop playing it because my girlfriend kept falling asleep and that had terrible consequences on my sexual life  .

Hope you enjoy it, tho. It's not a "great" game in my opinion, but it does quite a few things well.

[shelverton.]

Assassin's Creed 2 is like the only game this generation that I didn't manage to finish   . I admit I tend to find sandbox games a little tedious (generally I have a blast at the start, spend way too much time sandboxing, and then I'm bored to tears when it's time to finish the story missions), but AC2 did take boredom to a whole new level. I got to Venice and I had to stop playing it because my girlfriend kept falling asleep and that had terrible consequences on my sexual life   .

Hope you enjoy it, tho. It's not a "great" game in my opinion, but it does quite a few things well.

That basically sounds like my experience with the first AC. I was blown away at first, but then I realised the game wasn't very fun at all. I was also running around sandboxing for a few hours, but the actual missions were too boring and repetitive. Now, I've heard AC2 is a better game than the first one, and I like the overall idea, the visuals and so on... I don't have too high expectations so we'll have to see if I like this one more. Otherwise I'll just trade it in for something, dunno.. Lords of Shadow is definitely the game I'm picking up next.. I just don't know when. 

[Valtiel]

That basically sounds like my experience with the first AC. I was blown away at first, but then I realised the game wasn't very fun at all. I was also running around sandboxing for a few hours, but the actual missions were too boring and repetitive. Now, I've heard AC2 is a better game than the first one, and I like the overall idea, the visuals and so on... I don't have too high expectations so we'll have to see if I like this one more. Otherwise I'll just trade it in for something, dunno.. Lords of Shadow is definitely the game I'm picking up next.. I just don't know when. 

I foundt the setting of the first game a lot more fascinating. I'm italian, and the rendition of the various towns is gorgeous... but the middle-eastern setting was more fascinating. If anything, this game has a much better hub/collectibles/upgrades system, and that will keep you hunting with more motivation probably. But yes, at some point you run out of fun stuff to try and you get stuck with doing the same thing over and over and over and the game just dies  : .

[Thunderbrand]

I'm on chapter 2 and as I've said before, so far I'm loving it. Seems to definately be worth the wait. That said, I do have a couple MINOR complaints, but they aren't THAT important...just kinda nitpicking here:

- The QTE's can be a bit annoying. I'm starting to get used to them but sometimes they seem to interrupt the flow of the fight.
- The score only has 20 tracks. For a game with 46 levels you'd think the score would be bigger, but oh well. The tracks that do makeup the score are excellent!
- The BIGGEST complaint I have so far is that when you revisit a level to get something you missed, you have to do the entire level, including the boss battle, all over again   Now the one upside to that is you will keep gaining EP and skills, etc. But having to re-fight every battle just for the sake of say, 1 gem, is a bit tiresome.

But again these are just minor grievances. Overall I'm quite happy with the game.

[jediblaster]

Well see, all this talk about AC brings up a good point.  People differ in their opinions and what they like from a game.  Me, I too liked AC1 but never finished it since it became very repetitive and bland.  Then AC2 was announced and I didn't bother reading or paying too much attention until I just rented it.  Wow, I returned it and then proceeded to go out and purchase a copy.  This one was more to my liking and I played it through to completion. I have never played it a second time though.  I didn't really pay any attention to brotherhood which comes out in November.  I probably will pick it up, but it looks like more of the same.  The multiplayer does not interest me since I don't ever play online or with people.  Demons souls was the first game I actually played online.

I just finished the fight with my first "greater lycanthrope", man I hate that description.  They are Werewolves man.  Lycan describes the disease/curse/gift whatever you want to look at it as.  Oh well.  I must say that I got a small (very small) shiver when that thing grabs the troll.  I was expecting another one of those big swamp trolls.  Pretty neat.  It looked pretty well designed.  My favorite look of a werewolve to date is the one from Van Helsing.

Yeah, I am getting that autumn vibe from the 2nd chapter, but I got that same vibe from Rivendale in LOTRs.

As for the RE4 feel, I was mainly talking about the village entrances, mood and weather.  I think they nailed it.

After saying all I did so far, here is why I still like this game and will finish it.

- It is a fantasy inspired game (I love LOTRs and if it feels more like that then it does Castlevania at the moment, that is not entirely bad).
- the combat is fun
- the puzzles are fun (so far I only really did 1 so that might change)
- I love the inclusion of an ingame bestiary and the menu screen is just awesome from the hand drawn art to seeing what the move you will purchase will look like.
- the scrolls add to the story and make me want to find them all. (they are not just random flags like in AC which do nothing other than boost your accomplishments)
- It is not entirely too difficult even on knight mode (which I am playing on, again this may change the farther into the game I get, but rather than having to start over at the beginning, you can just change it on the fly).
- the music is great even if it is more LOTRs style than a classic Vania, but those tunes would not have fit the settings well.  This is a more realistic approach to the series than the metroidvania style games were anyway.
- It has werewolves (love em and all good movies about them).

I have been reading impressions that say this game opens up more and feels more like a classic CV game later on, so I have hope. 

[Thunderbrand]

Keep in mind too, that another thing that was stated was that they wanted to bring in a new audience and make a CV game that new players could get right into without having played any of the previous games. The goal was to have a game that would appeal to longtime fans but also to people who've never heard of CV before. That's why you have a new feel to the game and so many locations/environments and a big story amongst these characters. New fans wouldn't understand half the lore and oldschool elements that the longtime fans do, and thus wouldn't complain about them not being in the game. Conversely, the oldschool fans who want more classic elements are griping about all the new stuff in LoS. Cox & his crew had to strike a balance between the two...I'm sure that wasn't easy!

[jediblaster]

I get that, but to counter that thought, when they make movies based off of old concepts/tv shows or older movies, they often include quite a bit for the fans who saw those older versions.  The new audience may miss them, but they still include them.  The new Wall Street :money never sleeps movie had just a small scene with Bud Fox and Bluestar airlines, but for those who saw the first Wall Street movie that O. Stone made, you will get a kick out of that scene.  It will be totally lost on newcomers who haven't seen the first one.

I just feel in a video game about Castlevania, they could have done a bit better in maintaining the old while bringing in the new regime.  Metroid Prime did it.

I am not talking candles that give hearts/money/subweapons either.  Those would not fit, especially not in such a realistic environment.   They may fit in the castle parts and they may even be included (don't know since I am not that far obviously).  Perhaps more of the enemy types and Medusa would have fit very well in the ruins part of this 2nd chapter.  Perhaps some bats coming at you every once in awhile, even if they were only scenery like the frogs in the bog.  Some animated skeletons in the caves would have gone nice too. 

[Valtiel]

I just finished the fight with my first "greater lycanthrope", man I hate that description.  They are Werewolves man.  Lycan describes the disease/curse/gift whatever you want to look at it as.

A small nitpick on this: it's not entirely true.

Lycanthropy is a word composed of two parts - "lycan" coming from the greek "lùkos", which means wolf. In fantasy convention (think it started in the original D&D 1st edition but it was later expanded into Vampire: the Masquerade mythos too) the idea of the werewolf eventually split into two different creatures:

- the classic werewolf, a guy bitten by someone carrying the curse and turning into a man-wolf in full moon
- a monstrous creature that starts as a beast and whose shapeshifting leads to a humanoid form; a wolf-man if you want.

The second creature is a lycan. In general, the term "lycan" indicates that kind of werewolf that is born a monster and potentially cannot even assume a full human form. Lycans are in control of their transformation, and are generally evil, unlike werewolves.

The creatures you find in LoS are quite accurately described as Lycans. It's very unlikely that all of the creatures you fight were human at some point; also, you face many of them in broad daylight. Describing them as werewolves (cursed humans who shapeshift against their will) would have required a lot of added text.

Now, I don't have the game at hand atm (I'm at work) and I don't know what the bestiary says about them; maybe it actually does indicate them as humans bitten by other werewolves, in which case the contradiction would stand, and I'd be pretty puzzled.
Having them being lycans also helps in mantaining the role of the werewolf as an iconic monster: it's supposed to be an extremely powerful creature, not cannon fodder.

[Valtiel]

erhaps more of the enemy types and Medusa would have fit very well in the ruins part of this 2nd chapter.  Perhaps some bats coming at you every once in awhile, even if they were only scenery like the frogs in the bog.  Some animated skeletons in the caves would have gone nice too. 

You're gonna get some of that stuff, don't worry.