Topic: Predict the effects of Lords of Shadow.

[e105beta]

Well I apologize if I am, but I really don't see how else I can interpret the phrase "God of War did it better"

[RichterB]

Well I apologize if I am, but I really don't see how else I can interpret the phrase "God of War did it better"

Here's a novel thought. Maybe a 3D Castlevania can/should be different than God of War and Devil May Cry? Platforming aside, who said fighting enemy after enemy with big, flashy hack'n'slash combos is a necessity of Castlevania? I don't remember that in the 2D games. (and we saw how redundant that got with the latter 3D Castlevanias). Sometimes less is more, and I think 3D action/platforming games in general should remember that.

[CastleDan]

I hate this stupid logic.

WHy do they have to make the fighting system stylish!??!

Because if it isn't it wouldn't be as enjoyable.

The devil may cry/ God of war/ Ninja Gaiden fighting systems are enjoyable and fun. 

Games replicate and improve on things that are a success..

It's not the exact same fighting system, so what if it looks stylish, its not over the top like bayonetta or devil may cry.
I just don't get peoples complaints.

Please make the fighting system boring and not stylish so that it wont be like games that do it with great success..


Sorry I rather have a fighting system like Devil may cry than one like Elder scrolls where it makes a slashing motion that feels like you aren't doing a damn thing.

Devil may cry, god of war, castlevania lords of shadow while having stylish combat systems stylistically all three of them look VERY different as far as design and theme.

[Lumas]

I hate this stupid logic.

WHy do they have to make the fighting system stylish!??!

Because if it isn't it wouldn't be as enjoyable.

The devil may cry/ God of war/ Ninja Gaiden fighting systems are enjoyable and fun. 

Games replicate and improve on things that are a success..

It's not the exact same fighting system, so what if it looks stylish, its not over the top like bayonetta or devil may cry.
I just don't get peoples complaints.

Please make the fighting system boring and not stylish so that it wont be like games that do it with great success..


Sorry I rather have a fighting system like Devil may cry than one like Elder scrolls where it makes a slashing motion that feels like you aren't doing a damn thing.

Devil may cry, god of war, castlevania lords of shadow while having stylish combat systems stylistically all three of them look VERY different as far as design and theme.

I 100% agree.

[RichterB]

I hate this stupid logic.

WHy do they have to make the fighting system stylish!??!

Because if it isn't it wouldn't be as enjoyable.

The devil may cry/ God of war/ Ninja Gaiden fighting systems are enjoyable and fun. 

Games replicate and improve on things that are a success..

It's not the exact same fighting system, so what if it looks stylish, its not over the top like bayonetta or devil may cry.
I just don't get peoples complaints.

Please make the fighting system boring and not stylish so that it wont be like games that do it with great success..


Sorry I rather have a fighting system like Devil may cry than one like Elder scrolls where it makes a slashing motion that feels like you aren't doing a damn thing.

Devil may cry, god of war, castlevania lords of shadow while having stylish combat systems stylistically all three of them look VERY different as far as design and theme.

Yes and no. Stylish fighting is cool--I myself find some appeal in it in games like Devil May Cry 3--but it can be problematic to varying degrees in this sense: the enemies sometimes become 'punching bags.' Usually when you have chain combos, it means regular enemies take more and more hits to kill, which slows down the pacing of the game and feels like a hidden kind of level padding. (It also makes less distinction between regular enemies and bosses). The more you do these combos "systematically," the more redundant and robotic/technical they sometimes feel--like a cinematic button-based puzzle game. It becomes more about "pulling off" the "visually stylish move" than it does about surviving and progressing through the level design. And the more games that employ it, the less fresh it feels. (Has anyone seen the recent big-budget 'Dante's Inferno' or 'Darksiders' vids--they look cool, and have good art design and game principles...but the combat largely appears cut and paste).

Granted, I don't know to what extent LoS uses combos, so I'm not being entirely fair. At some point, I'm looking for a new 3D action paradigm. I agree with the idea of a strong and weak whip attack (confirmed?), a grab whip attack (not confirmed), and a defensive whip move (not confirmed)...but I'm not crazy about that downward flaming power punch and super spin-attack we're seeing. That suggests that enemies are used to "fill space" and be "smacked" than it does they are put strategically to meld with/enhance the level design. I just don't want to see enemies getting caught in a chain and getting juggled around like a fighting game for the previously mentioned concerns. But...if the game turns out to be exceedingly fun, I suppose it doesn't matter in the end.

[CastleDan]

Yes and no. Stylish fighting is cool--I myself find some appeal in it in games like Devil May Cry 3--but it can be problematic to varying degrees in this sense: the enemies sometimes become 'punching bags.' Usually when you have chain combos, it means regular enemies take more and more hits to kill, which slows down the pacing of the game and feels like a hidden kind of level padding. (It also makes less distinction between regular enemies and bosses). The more you do these combos "systematically," the more redundant and robotic/technical they sometimes feel--like a cinematic button-based puzzle game. It becomes more about "pulling off" the "visually stylish move" than it does about surviving and progressing through the level design. And the more games that employ it, the less fresh it feels. (Has anyone seen the recent big-budget 'Dante's Inferno' or 'Darksiders' vids--they look cool, and have good art design and game principles...but the combat largely appears cut and paste).

Granted, I don't know to what extent LoS uses combos, so I'm not being entirely fair. At some point, I'm looking for a new 3D action paradigm. I agree with the idea of a strong and weak whip attack (confirmed?), a grab whip attack (not confirmed), and a defensive whip move (not confirmed)...but I'm not crazy about that downward flaming power punch and super spin-attack we're seeing. That suggests that enemies are used to "fill space" and be "smacked" than it does they are put strategically to meld with/enhance the level design. I just don't want to see enemies getting caught in a chain and getting juggled around like a fighting game for the previously mentioned concerns. But...if the game turns out to be exceedingly fun, I suppose it doesn't matter in the end.

The only reason I'm getting defensive over this is because it's as if people haven't been reading about the game.

They went on record if you expect this game to play like a devil may cry or god of war you are wrong, its a slower more puzzle flatform paced game.

So we are complaining that they put in a ( looks enjoyable) nice fighting engine to enjoy the action parts within the game?
It's not even that stylish or over the top, just some nice ideas in my book.

Over the top and stylish to me is having a damn message on the screen saying RAD whenever you get a cool combo.

[shelverton.]

I wouldn't mind a 3D action game where enemies can take one or two hits instead of 15-20... First of all, the original Castlevania games, while in 2D, never had enemies that could take more than a few hits. Also, it would mean that you're constantly making progress through the levels, never being stuck in a square room, button mashing away at skeletons or other weaker enemies that keep coming from ever direction. It would keep the game from having the typical "battle arena" feeling that we see too often these days.

I know that some people say that this wouldn't work in a 3D game, but I don't understand why. Would it make the game too easy? The original Castlevania sure wasn't too easy, neither was Ninja Gaiden - both had one-hit enemies. I suppose 3D level design would make it too easy to just run past enemies if you don't have to kill them or even jump over them... Still, I think it could work if executed well.

Until then, I think combos are fun, but it's been done to death...

[CastleDan]

I wouldn't mind a 3D action game where enemies can take one or two hits instead of 15-20... First of all, the original Castlevania games, while in 2D, never had enemies that could take more than a few hits. Also, it would mean that you're constantly making progress through the levels, never being stuck in a square room, button mashing away at skeletons or other weaker enemies that keep coming from ever direction. It would keep the game from having the typical "battle arena" feeling that we see too often these days.

I know that some people say that this wouldn't work in a 3D game, but I don't understand why. Would it make the game too easy? The original Castlevania sure wasn't too easy, neither was Ninja Gaiden - both had one-hit enemies. I suppose 3D level design would make it too easy to just run past enemies if you don't have to kill them or even jump over them... Still, I think it could work if executed well.

Until then, I think combos are fun, but it's been done to death...

You are entitled to your opinion but bringing gaming back to concepts from the nes days would be silly imo.

The idea is to progress not regress. If combos have been done to death maybe someone should be innovative and come up with a new system, instead of going back to a simple design which would be much worse imo.

[shelverton.]

You are entitled to your opinion but bringing gaming back to concepts from the nes days would be silly imo.

The idea is to progress not regress. If combos have been done to death maybe someone should be innovative and come up with a new system, instead of going back to a simple design which would be much worse imo.

If "progress" just means giving standard enemies more hit points and turning every action game into battle arena brawlers, I dunno if progress is that...uhm.. progressive. To me, modern action games actually have a lot in common with 80's beat'em'ups - kill all enemies on screen so you can move to the next screen where you do it all over again.

But yeah, I see your point. My idea would be that enemies acted more as minions and less like mini-bosses. Instead the focus should be progressing through levels at a faster pace with more interesting level design. I have absolutely no idea how, or IF, it would work, but I just wanna see a game that does things differently.

I know most people won't agree with this, but the PS2 version of Shinobi was really cool IMO. The enemies were easily dispatched, the tempo was high, but the game was still really difficult. I know some of you will say it was because of terrible platforming with bottomless pits, but I gotta say I loved that game from start to finish. It's not my ideal 3D action game, but it's pretty damn close 

[Ahasverus]

I don't know, I see LOS as a kind of POP game, more than a GOW, more than DMC, I see it as a POP game, the escenery, the plataforming, the exploration, the puzzles, the on rails action sequences (The horse and the werewolves), I don't think this is more a pure action game than an inspired platafformer.
And remember, Cox said he was inspired by Street Fighter ,So, a more arcade fighting system?

[Lumas]

I don't know, I see LOS as a kind of POP game, more than a GOW, more than DMC, I see it as a POP game, the escenery, the plataforming, the exploration, the puzzles, the on rails action sequences (The horse and the werewolves), I don't think this is more a pure action game than an inspired platafformer.
And remember, Cox said he was inspired by Street Fighter ,So, a more arcade fighting system?

Wow did not know he was inspired by Street Fighter. I wonder how that is gonna work into the game.

[shelverton.]

And remember, Cox said he was inspired by Street Fighter ,So, a more arcade fighting system?

I don't see how anything good can come out of such an inspiration, I sincerely don't.
Hopefully I'm wrong. It makes me very curious, but scared. Cox could've said Tetris and I would've been equally puzzled.

EDIT: Maybe, just maybe, Cox is talking about how to execute moves in battle? You use the analog stick in different ways to pull off different moves. Could that be it?

[DragonSlayr81]

I know most people won't agree with this, but the PS2 version of Shinobi was really cool IMO. The enemies were easily dispatched, the tempo was high, but the game was still really difficult. I know some of you will say it was because of terrible platforming with bottomless pits, but I gotta say I loved that game from start to finish. It's not my ideal 3D action game, but it's pretty damn close 

PS2's Shinobi was kickass. The only real problem I had with it wasn't the platforming and bottomless pits, but the CAMERA!!! ESPECIALLY when you're trying to platform, the camera suddenly shifts and you find yourself falling off into a bottomless pit. Then again, camera issues seem to be a problem of a LOT of 3D games. They've been getting better as of lately, but I still play some games where, suddenly you move the wrong way and the camera is inside the wall, or something.

[Ahasverus]

So, with the new fixed camera, PROBLEM FIXED! 

[e105beta]

Here's a novel thought. Maybe a 3D Castlevania can/should be different than God of War and Devil May Cry? Platforming aside, who said fighting enemy after enemy with big, flashy hack'n'slash combos is a necessity of Castlevania? I don't remember that in the 2D games. (and we saw how redundant that got with the latter 3D Castlevanias). Sometimes less is more, and I think 3D action/platforming games in general should remember that.

You missed the point of what we were talking about, FYI.
I'm going to say, though, that if they came out with a 3D Castlevania game where the fight with Dracula consisted of dodging fireballs in 3D space and launching single hits at his head, I'd be extremely disappointed. There's a reason why companies make retro-style games along with newer games. Sometimes, the transition from 2D to 3D just doesn't work. It needs more.
The reason the PS2 3Dvanias got redundant was because there was NOTHING else. You went through a series of flat, uninspired rooms killing enemies. Cox has said he's aiming for a platforming/combat/puzzle mix, and we've seen how nice the environments look.

Yes and no. Stylish fighting is cool--I myself find some appeal in it in games like Devil May Cry 3--but it can be problematic to varying degrees in this sense: the enemies sometimes become 'punching bags.' Usually when you have chain combos, it means regular enemies take more and more hits to kill, which slows down the pacing of the game and feels like a hidden kind of level padding. (It also makes less distinction between regular enemies and bosses). The more you do these combos "systematically," the more redundant and robotic/technical they sometimes feel--like a cinematic button-based puzzle game. It becomes more about "pulling off" the "visually stylish move" than it does about surviving and progressing through the level design. And the more games that employ it, the less fresh it feels. (Has anyone seen the recent big-budget 'Dante's Inferno' or 'Darksiders' vids--they look cool, and have good art design and game principles...but the combat largely appears cut and paste).

Granted, I don't know to what extent LoS uses combos, so I'm not being entirely fair. At some point, I'm looking for a new 3D action paradigm. I agree with the idea of a strong and weak whip attack (confirmed?), a grab whip attack (not confirmed), and a defensive whip move (not confirmed)...but I'm not crazy about that downward flaming power punch and super spin-attack we're seeing. That suggests that enemies are used to "fill space" and be "smacked" than it does they are put strategically to meld with/enhance the level design. I just don't want to see enemies getting caught in a chain and getting juggled around like a fighting game for the previously mentioned concerns. But...if the game turns out to be exceedingly fun, I suppose it doesn't matter in the end.

The kind of enemy placement you're talking about works wonders in 2D platformers, but really doesn't transfer over to 3D games very well unless you want the game to feel like Mario 64. I know I personally believe Castlevania has much more in common with DMC than Mario 64. As for your claims about Darksiders, well, that's not entirely true. Owning the game myself, I can tell you I'm reminded of Legend of Zelda more so than God of War. Sure, the moves can look flashy, but enemies generally go down pretty quickly, and the stronger ones tend to have some work-around to killing them. Dante's Inferno, as far as the demo goes, you're right, it's just GoW in Hell.

I see no reason to leave out flashy moves. This definitely wouldn't be the first Castlevania game to have them.
As for your "fill space" comment, I wonder if you've actually ever played DMC. If you're not playing easy mode, you tend to be the one getting smacked around if you aren't doing things right. Dodging, blocking, countering, and comboing takes, surprisingly enough, skill and timing, but more tweaked toward a combat aspect instead of a platforming aspect. The combat itself is gratifying. The way you make it sound is like you go into a room, beat some enemies by spamming buttons, then move on.

Now, I could understand that by adding the action, it's just not really your type of game, and that's completely understandable. But I will say that the platforming style of a 2D Castlevania game, as far as I see, doesn't transfer well into 3D because of that third dimension. In a 2D game, a skeleton on a platform would have to be whipped or jumped over. In a 3D game, you just given yourself the ability to go over, to either side, a combination of the two, or whip it and go through. It makes a skeleton not that big of an obstacle. The bones they throw can now just be sidestepped.
Also, as games have tried to go towards a more cinematic experience, placing enemies on every platform as an obstacle begins to feel frustratingly gimmicky, when that job could easily done by something like a spike trap, bottomless pit, flame jet, etc.