Topic: Castlevania - The Plot Hole Thread

[Reinhart77]

I don't think Dracula knew Alucard had betrayed him during Legends.  He must have known something was up when he "abandoned" him beforehand, but it probably wasn't an all out betrayal and Alucard probably had an emotional reconciliation when he returned to the castle after being defeated by Sonia Belmont.  Its hard to say how long he was pretending to serve his father, perhaps not long enough for there to be any positive evidence of betrayal? 

[darkwzrd4]

Okay, I can´t recall what´s exactly stated in the CV3 Manual besides the whole Poltergeist King mess xD

But yeah, I remember what happenend in the Manga. It really seems like he joined his Father again... but why? Wouldn´t someone notice if he´s holding back and is not harming any humans? And wouldn´t they keep an eye on him, even more because he betrayed Dracula before?

And still, I don´t get why Dracula seems not to have learned anything from his encounter with Sonia, besides of amass an even more powerful army of Monsters and some Devil Forgers... and when one of his strongest is went missing, he sends the other one instead of killing Trever (although you could explain this as Isaac is on the same level as Hector.... if the latter turns out to betray them, Isaac would be the only one who could kill him)

This is why I'm not sure about including Legends in the timeline.  In my opinion, the only way it could work is if the storyline of Legends was changed (which I don't see ever happening).

[Reinhart77]

Dracula never expects to be beaten in any game.

If they did change the story for Legends, it wouldn't be the first time.  The story found in the original Castlevania: The Adventure was completely changed in both the Japanese version and the international version.  The original Japanese version of The Adventure said that Dracula hadn't become a vampire yet and was just an evil wizard.

[darkwzrd4]

Dracula never expects to be beaten in any game.

If they did change the story for Legends, it wouldn't be the first time.  The story found in the original Castlevania: The Adventure was completely changed in both the Japanese version and the international version.  The original Japanese version of The Adventure said that Dracula hadn't become a vampire yet and was just an evil wizard.

Interesting.  Why can't the translators just simply translate the story and games without changing anything.

[Reinhart77]

Ha, for The Adventure, there were no translaters.  The localizers just made up their own "story" and made it a sequel to Simon's Quest and said the hero was Simon Belmont.

For fun, here's a couple embellishments for Legends.  I am going to guess that Sonia's parents died when she was just born during "the Great Belmont Purge" that I'm guessing happened, after which Dracula was ready to reveal himself.  Sonia's grandfather escaped with the Vampire Killer and raised her himself.  He held on to it until she was grown and passed it to her when he himself was killed.  If all the males of the family had been killed off, then Sonia would in fact be the "true successor" to the vampire killer, and thus the whip would not drain her energy like it would the Morris family and she would be able to pass it down to her descendants.  When the whip was passed to the Morris family, it must have known that the "true successors" were out there somewhere (even if Death thought they were all dead) and thus required the life force sacrifice to be used.

Meanwhile, when Dracula was finally ready to begin his next phase on his war against God, his plans were "disrupted" when he discovered the re-incarnation of his wife Elizabetha in Lisa and he melted.  He could live his pleasant life with her with the belief that there were no Belmonts out there that would hunt him or his family.  But then of course, humanity proved to be idiots.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

That all sounds... pretty plausable, actually.
Sort of the Coppola Dracula movie.

[Reinhart77]

Hmmm.... oh yeah, perhaps the Belmonts had a bad reputation before Sonia apparently slew Dracula. You must admit, the Belmonts had a 300 years + history of Vampire hunting....And Draculas defeat would be the final straw for Sonia to be expelled.

Actually, now that I think about it, the people might have expelled Sonia after they discovered that she was a Belmont, which became evident after her defeat of Dracula with a whip.  The Japanese Dracula Curse manual said that the Belmonts were feared just as much as the vampires they hunted and as a result they lived far from people and became like myths.

Another point about Lisa's death, I do have a theory that Death may have played a part in it.  Imagine that Dracula has all this power and is about to do what Death wants him to do with it, but then he is side-tracked by this whole Lisa and family thing.  Dracula just needed a little nudge to set him back on track.  Hard to say if he would ever betray Dracula like that, but if he thought it was for his own good, well...  The forces of darkness were behind three other witch hunting incidents in Castlevania history, namely, the killing of Sypha's parents (Carmilla), the killing of Rosalee (Isaac), and the killing of Carrie's parents (Actrise, I think..).  This one might be no different.  And you can't blame it all on the forces of darkness though, as Carmilla said, they just enhanced the humans natural inclinations.

[Danial]

Reinhart, (pretty good summary btw) yeah I mentioned this in another thread.  I find it pretty interesting that the dates seem to be changing in Legends' favor.  The biggest conflict was with Lisa's death, and that seems to be fixed now.  The irony is that just when Legends seems to be able to fit into the timeline, Lords of Shadow is specifically said not to be part of it.  D'oh!  Oh well, can't win them all I suppose.

I think Alucard didn't so much rejoin Dracula as he was just hanging around.  He explains his battle with Sonia as a test to see if she could actually beat Dracula.  After he is defeated, Alucard says farewell, which I always took as him going into hibernation.  That's why I assumed Trevor found him in the crypts.  During Legends Alucard isn't only not physically strong enough to kill his father, but he's also not emotionally strong enough.  It probably didn't help that he also just lost his mother.  So between Legends and CV3, Alucard may not have been helping Dracula's forces, but he wasn't working against them either.  They kind of hint at that in Symphony, when Death (or is it Librarian, I can't remember) asks him not to interfere if he isn't going to join them.  By the time Trevor, Sypha, and Grant show up, I think Alucard sees there is a chance to defeat Dracula, so he joins them.

For Legends, I think they should just establish that Dracula was defeated, but not killed.  Like in Adventure, it only appeared he was dead, but in actuality he escaped to build an army and declare war on humans and the church that attacked him first.

I do like the idea that after Lisa's death, he destroyed the village that killed her.  When the church discovered this, they sent their soldiers to destroy him, thus escalating the conflict.  That's how real wars usually start, small things turn into huge conflicts.  It also gives Dracula a little more character and makes him less "evil", since he was just reacting to what happened.

The idea that Death might have had a role to play in Lisa's execution is also a good one.  Not only would it fit the cyclical events of the Castlevania series, but it also makes what comes next even more tragic.  And, if Death does reap souls, then the entire war is just good business for him.  He's like the weapons dealer that sells to both sides.

[Archangel]

Reading all this warms my heart - it seems that finally Legends Story does make Sense =D

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

These are all very wonderful food for thought.
And yes, as a promoter of Castlevania Legends, I am quite happy to see that people are piecing together ways to make the whole puzzle of a timeline fit.

I had one biiiiiiig thread, long ago, that explained multiple timelines using lynchpins, which made all the games fit, but 1. I lost the file, 2. the forum was reset, and 3. now there are even more games, making it obsolete.

I should draft a new one.  With Aeon's coalition (I believe he may have hired/enlisted Germaine), there may be a greater factor in this, that will probably never be explored, haha... like the Galamoth thing and his relationship with Dracula, and how Galamoth wants to take over the underworld as well as the earth dimension.

[Reinhart77]

I'm glad it's starting to make some sense.  As ridiculous as it may sound, there is always the possibility they might actually make a Castlevania: Legends ReBirth that could clear up all this stuff.

Alucard did come to the Castle in Legends with the intentions killing his father.  He says this in his dialog with Sonia:

lucard   Sonia! I didn't think it was true, but it is you!
Sonia   Alucard!! I could say the same. What are YOU doing here?
Alucard   Listen to me, Sonia. This is not a place for someone like you.
Sonia   But Alucard...
Alucard This problem concerns only me and my father. I've come to fight the
   lord of this castle. I can not let my father, Count Dracula, get
   away with this. I must do this for my mother and for the world that
   she so dearly loved. Please understand. I am the only one who can
   make amends for the sins committed by my father, and there is no
   reason for you to get involved in this battle. Sonia, I could not
   bear to lose you, too. Now, turn back!
Sonia   Thank you Alucard. You- you're probably right. In fact, you have
   always made the right decisions. But I have no intention of going
   back now. Just as your father was granted strength from the evil
   deity to conquer the world, I have been granted strength to fight
   your father. I will not run away. We all decide our own fate. It was
   you who taught me that, Alucard.
Alucard   Alright, Sonia. Then show me this strength you believe so strongly
   in, for I too want to believe. Let us test this strength on me.
   Prepare yourself!
Sonia   !!


After Beating Alucard:

Alucard   Ooww! I had no idea you had become so strong.
Sonia   Oh, Alucard!
Alucard   It looks like this time it is I who have learned a lesson.
Sonia   Alucard, did you purposely...?
Alucard   No, Sonia. You have made me believe in your strength.
Sonia   Alucard. I'm so sorry.
Alucard   Do not trouble yourself about it, Sonia. Now, I must sleep. I fear
   we shall not meet again. Farewell, my beloved, my beautiful vampire
   hunter.
Sonia   Alucard! Alucard, I will never forget you. Farewell, dear Alucard.

The question is why would Alucard be ready to fight his father alone in Legends, but not be willing to do so in Dracula's Curse.  Maybe he looked back on that and thought "man, what a fool i was back then"?  Maybe he calculated that Dracula was a lot more powerful in Dracula's Curse?

Based on the Japanese translation of the Dracula's Curse that said he "infiltrated the underground" I thought that he was actively participating in and undermining Dracula's organization, but you may be right.  I figured the coffin was pretty much just Alucard's bed and he would have gotten into it or out of it as he pleased and may have tested other warriors who stumbled across his coffin before settling on Trevor.  The animated Dracula's Curse synapsis does agree with the idea that Trevor woke up Alucard from a multi-year slumber.

Oh, and if anyone's wondering where this synapsis for the animated Dracula's Curse is yet, here's a link.  Its obviously not canon, but it may be "correct" in certain places.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14077952/Castlevania-Deck

[crisis]

I forgot there even was an animated CV3 project in development, lol. What the hell, how come they haven't updated the status on it yet? It shouldn't take this long to make these things.

[Reinhart77]

about Dracula attacking the village Lisa died in, I could have sworn I read in the radio drama that the village was pretty much destroyed when Alucard found Lyudmil there, but now I can't find anywhere that says that.  shoot, if it wasn't destroyed, then it might have been the villagers who nearly killed Lyudmil.  although who knows why Magnus was there.  so i guess the possibility of that happening is only pure speculation, coupled with the idea that Dracula did attack the village and surrounding villages one year after Lisa's death in the Animated Dracula's Curse.  Here's a radio drama summary:
http://krizy.livejournal.com/64773.html

[Nagumo]

Heh, I completely missed out on the fun. It's good to see that there actually people who agree with me on the Legends thing. I made a topic about it at the Chapel once but that eventually ended in a trainwreck. But I still want to add my own two cents to this thread.

First I like to point out that Dracula didn't want to exterminate mankind during Legends and there was no war between him and them. This is made very clear during the game itself and in the manual which states that everyone is Europe was to afraid to do anything, and that Dracula's motif was to conquer the world according to Alucard.             

So, pretty much every plot hole that prevents Legends from being included in the timeline are taken care off except for one: how was Dracula able to come back after getting the living daylights kicked out of him by Sonia? I actually thought of something that could work very well and it's from the translated opening from CV3 which actually differs a bit from its English counterpart.     

15th century Europe.

In this dark age, an evil person named Vlad Tepes lived in Transylvania. Having reached the limits of his power, he revived dark gods and used their power to terrorize the nation of Wallachia.

       

My theory is that after his defeat in Legends, Dracula survived but was only barely alive and was pretty annoyed to say the least. He was outraged because mankind had judged him for his actions which he viewed as justice. He wanted revenge and he plotted to, in turn, sentence them all to extinction because it was his "divine right" to do so. But he knew that there was no way he could win with his current powers, so the only thing to do is to extend beyond his limits. He revived Dark Gods and they gave him power (because Dark Gods like to do that) which made him even more powerful then before.

Anyway, I also tried to tie this in a bit with something that Dracula said during CoD and this actually gives him a better motif for hating humans. 

Ah, I also would like to say that these "Dark Gods" have also been refered to in the CoD manga so this theory has actually some canonity (to a certain extent) to back it up.

I think that was the final nail in the coffin for people who say that Legends condradicts. The only thing that could need some enlighting is what Dracula has been doing in the 25 year gap between Legends and CV3.                                                               

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

This reminds me of the events that happen in Final Fantasy Tactics.

There are a few characters in those games that, when they're about to die, get a 'voice' that comes out of the Zodiac Stones, who binds them to a pact; they become powerful beings and get to live again, but at the cost of becoming vessels for the Lucavi, the dark gods encapsulated in the stones.

Perhaps, as Dracula was witnessing his final moments, the crimson stone finally manifested its true power; the entity known as "Chaos" offers him the option of having eternal life and limitless power, far more than that of a regular Vampire, and he accepts this, and upon accepting the agreement, and earning his Lord of Darkness title and all his super-powers (that make Alucard not go after him directly in CV3), he is now a vessel of Chaos.