Topic: SomaCruz90 plays through "old-school" CVs, watch and laugh at his pain

[thernz]

...

Well, I think my point is that SoTN tends to exercise superior technical skill (in shading and etc, not color count) in its animation and backgrounds. I personally feel that technical achievements like those can work better in making something stand the test of time than technological gimmicks like Mode7. N-Not to diss Super Castlevania IV. I feel it's a lot more cohesive with its sprite work and backgrounds than SoTN, though I don't find the SoTN backgrounds to really clash with the Rondo sprites. The backgrounds are these lush, magnificent technical achievements in pixel art. I mean, it's like arguing that the backgrounds in fighting games like KoF are stylistically different from the fighter sprites because of the large difference in detail. There's a bit of leeway to be played here. Because otherwise, not even the Dracula X backgrounds can be considered consistent with the Rondo sprites with its muted colors and higher details. I guess any stylistic difference I would agree with is how some of the colors on Rondo sprites are far too saturated for SoTN's duller backgrounds.

Though personally, I find Rondo's backgrounds, while being lively, to be really tiled and empty compared with other CV titles. I guess it's because of the limitations, but the colors are pretty bad too.

I am still not sure how you can find any of the DS sprites better than the SoTN ones. They're really clumsily shaded and colored in parts, imo. Because  I know I'm getting off topic but can you show examples.

Don't get me wrong though. Atmospherically, the backgrounds of SCVIV can totally beat SoTN a lot of times though. The muddiness of the backgrounds work in favor of it, giving it this tinge of dirtiness. I love how sullen and decayed everything looks. For an early SNES game, it has surprisingly efficient tilework and it flows very smoothly. It's quirky to see how, say, the backgrounds in Dracula X, while being more technically proficient, fail to provide an atmosphere to the same extent.

I'm not really arguing against your point. I have no idea what I'm doing, actually. ; - ;

RichterB:
The Alucard run at the start I can understand since it was a one time thing. I'm personally feel more gimped at the failure to create a new batch of Richter sprites. imo those are the only ones that really clash with SoTN's aesthetic. I actually prefer Simon and Richter to the DS ones too. I mean, both of them move pretty awkwardly, but so do the DS ones. The DS ones are just smoother, but I like the extra heaviness that Simon's sprite seems to have. It compliments his pace. With Richter, I thought the lighter shading reflected how much lighter he was. I can't say I'm that fond of his colors though. I didn't really like Chris though. I thought his animation was pretty clunky, the worst so far, besides maybe Albus (adsfadsf) and I disliked the shading.

[e105beta]

Well you make all good points. I pretty much agree with you on everything but the DS and Rondo sprites.

[Vampire Killer]

The fact that I see faults or that I'm not enjoying the Classicvanias is NOT an issue of respect or some misplaced new age idealism.

Let me put it this way. What you're doing is the equivalent of an atheist running into a church and attempting to start a debate.  The people here have a literal love for this series, especially those who started at it's roots.  You're free to not like the older titles, just tread carefully and try to understand. Just as they are blinded by love to "how bad" the gameplay and graphics are, so to are you blinded by your experiences.

For me, even today the mode7 in CV4 isn't gimmicky, but understandably to you it seems as if it is.

Perspective lad. Perspective.

[Harrycombs]

I still think examining games as if today was 1991 isn't a good way to go about things. I have several favorite movies from the 1960s, and I don't have to make excuses for them. Same thing for my favorite books, and most of my favorite comic books come from the 1980s. I just don't think it ok to just look past things like presentation and sound when you're experiencing something.

And I listened to the soundtrack during the game. There's a couple stand-out tracks, but it wouldn't even make my top 25 16-bit game soundtracks.

First, you really do need to look at things from their time period. For instance, you mentioned movies. The Soviet film Battleship Potemkin from 1921 is one of the greatest films of all time, but you still have to view it from its time period to see how ground breaking it is (for instance, that movie was the first to use a montage, something like that being new is hard to grasp in this day and age). SCV4 is the same in many ways, especially with its use of mode7. Look at how Symphony tried to impress us with the 3D backgrounds every once in a while and with the few 3D enemies it had.

Also, if you were looking for great tracks in SCV4, you were going about the soundtrack wrong. Its great because of how cohesive it is and how it fits perfectly with the environments.

[bariant]

SCIV did a few good things technically, like, build up its backgrounds reusing the same tiles over and over again to gave a nice lush look, but some of the sprite and tile work leaves allot to be desired.

One misconception about SCIV is that it has the largest sprites of the early Castlevania games, as you can see from the picture below, this far from true...infact, the largest SCIV character(mode 7 rock golem) is a backgraound tile.

Rondo top   SCIV bottom



The early games also differ allot aswell in terms of animation, infact, Rondo has more sprite animation than SCIV, DracXX and Bloodlines combined...example below.

Rondo Death




Death SCIV                                                                    Death Bloodlines
                 

Here are some screenshot comparisons. I find Rondo and DracXX to be the best looking of the old school console castlevania games.

                 Rondo                                          SOTN











Rondo                                                    DracXX

[Vampire Killer]

Rondo is definitely a very pretty game, and OMG @ the amount of animations for Death in Rondo.

[thernz]

That Atlantis screenshot of DXX is just terrible lol. I think I actually prefer the Rondo backgrounds to the DXX ones now that I'm seeing them side-by-side instead of relying on memory. They're more tiled I guess, but I think I actually prefer their environment designs over DXX. The colors pop out more too. It's not as "dark" but I think it provides more in intricate details.

Rondo pretty much had the best sprites out of the classic Vanias totally. The range in variety, form, and colors is pretty unparalleled. And it's just such a lean and clean style. I love it. <3

[RichterB]

That Atlantis screenshot of DXX is just terrible lol.

The Atlantis "Hidden Springs" level is gorgeous. That screenshot doesn't do it justice. To me, it's a much better level than the Ghost Ship in Rondo. Here are some better images, though they only show the first part, and not the later aqueducts:
http://www.castlevaniadungeon.net/Images/Stages/DXX/5a-1.gif
http://www.castlevaniadungeon.net/Images/Screens/dxxi.png

Though, you know, those screenshots of Rondo look strangely better than the game did on PSP...

[thernz]

I actually prefer the Rondo pirate ship level. The pirate ship is the probably the most organic of Rondo's backgrounds. There's very little tiling in it besides the docks. I love the ships in the background and the use of strong purple for the shadows. Also, I'm not really fond of the way the PSP renders 2D.

Soma-kun, have you played Rondo yet? It's the Classic Vania with the easiest controls. You should probably give it a shot if you can. It also has a bunch of alternate paths and levels. There's a lot more openness in it than any other classic title. I think you might be warmer toward it than the others.

[Valtiel]

The Soviet film Battleship Potemkin from 1921 is one of the greatest films of all time, but you still have to view it from its time period to see how ground breaking it is (for instance, that movie was the first to use a montage, something like that being new is hard to grasp in this day and age).

I completely agree with the spirit of your post, but I think this is a terrible example. Battleship Potemkin is a technically groundbreaking movie but little more; the technical elements are impressive but they don't make it a "good movie", they make it an important movie in the history of cinema. It's a not-so-subtle difference, expecially when you consider that some of the masterpieces of the time (citing for example Griffith and his Broken Blossom) still work as movies even today.

What I mean to say is that historical perspective is the only thing that justifies Battleship Potemkin, while I'd argue that most of the 8 and 16 bit Castlevania games are still GOOD games, historical perspective or not. You need to put it into context to look past some of the flaws, but you can still appreciate them in this day and age.

[Harrycombs]

I completely agree with the spirit of your post, but I think this is a terrible example. Battleship Potemkin is a technically groundbreaking movie but little more; the technical elements are impressive but they don't make it a "good movie", they make it an important movie in the history of cinema. It's a not-so-subtle difference, expecially when you consider that some of the masterpieces of the time (citing for example Griffith and his Broken Blossom) still work as movies even today.

What I mean to say is that historical perspective is the only thing that justifies Battleship Potemkin, while I'd argue that most of the 8 and 16 bit Castlevania games are still GOOD games, historical perspective or not. You need to put it into context to look past some of the flaws, but you can still appreciate them in this day and age.

Battleship Potemkin was actually a movie considered so powerful at the time that it could cause an uprising, which is why is banned by many countries throughout the world (including the Soviet Union for a time). Few movies have ever had an impact as much as that one, not just on its technical achievements but in that it helped change the world, it was (and is) truly a masterpiece. When placed in its historical context it is an even more interesting movie (for instance, small things like the different versions of the film, the original opening with a quote by Leon Trotsky, the second version strangely changing it to a quote by Vladimir Lenin after Stalin takes power). Appreciating its historical context does increase a persons enjoyment of it. Although, even when I didn't much about it when first saw it, I still thought it was a great movie.

And I agree with you, the classicvanias are still good games, but context is necessary to enjoy them to their fullest.

[default2k]

I was going to make a thread about this, but ill ask here.
What do you guys think about the SOTN port in Dracula X Chronicles?
I am loving  it so far, but to me, there was no reason to mess with the dialogue like that. And even worse the voice actors. They made Alucard sound like a teenager, and Maria like an annoying bitch.
They even changed the classic dialogue betwen Richter and Dracula!
They could have fixed the bugs, hell, maybe they could have added the secret areas in the saturn version, but noooo, they had to waste money on chaging the voices and dialgoue. sigh

[SomaCruz90]

^Off-topic, but I really hope they don't do something similar with the Star Fox 64 remake for 3DS coming up. The wacky voice acting is half of the appeal.

[Harrycombs]

I was going to make a thread about this, but ill ask here.
What do you guys think about the SOTN port in Dracula X Chronicles?
I am loving  it so far, but to me, there was no reason to mess with the dialogue like that. And even worse the voice actors. They made Alucard sound like a teenager, and Maria like an annoying bitch.
They even changed the classic dialogue betwen Richter and Dracula!
They could have fixed the bugs, hell, maybe they could have added the secret areas in the saturn version, but noooo, they had to waste money on chaging the voices and dialgoue. sigh

I hate it. Its inferior to all other versions of the game. There are more glitches (and not the fun kind ), the new voice acting is worse than the originals, and while the script was improved, it lost all of the charm the original translation had. On top of that Maria mode was boring as hell. Also, whenever you move on the PSP the ghosting is terrible, this was also a big problem when you played Rondo of Blood too, but Symphony is such a gorgeous game it just pains me to see it like this.

Its inferior to every other version.

[e105beta]

I hate it. Its inferior to all other versions of the game. There are more glitches (and not the fun kind ), the new voice acting is worse than the originals, and while the script was improved, it lost all of the charm the original translation had. On top of that Maria mode was boring as hell. Also, whenever you move on the PSP the ghosting is terrible, this was also a big problem when you played Rondo of Blood too, but Symphony is such a gorgeous game it just pains me to see it like this.

Its inferior to every other version.

A perfect example to tie up this thread.

I loved the SotN port, if just for the dialogue. Like I said before, maybe it's because I don't have the nostalgia goggles, but I don't adore the "What is a man!" line beyond it's comedic value. I find the port's dialogue to just be more well done.

Maria mode might have been boring as hell (mostly because I had just run through the game twice) but it was more than NOT having a Maria mode.

And I never noticed any problems with ghosting.