Topic: 2D outsells 3D in MAJOR franchise --hope for Castlevania!

[cecil-kain]

I was doing some research for Operation Akumajo, and I found something so unbelievable it needed its own topic.  Brace yourself for some hardcore gaming enlightenment of the highest order.  This information will challenge what the game industry has been drilling into our heads for 3 generations of home consoles.  And just to cover my tracks, I have all this information sourced.  Please read all the following quotes from Wikipedia, or you can skip the quotes for the shorthand version.

New Super Mario Bros. Wii was a commercial success, selling 936,734 units in four days in Japan, the biggest debut for a Wii game in that region;[50] its sales increased to 1,401,558 in the following week.[51] New Super Mario Bros. Wii sold three million units in Japan in the shortest time ever, selling 3,002,753 units in just seven weeks.[52] In North America, New Super Mario Bros. Wii sold 1,390,000 units in November 2009, making it the third best-selling game of the month behind the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.[53] New Super Mario Bros. Wii has sold over 4,000,000 units in the US.,[54] and this has taken worldwide sales to over the 10,000,000 mark, making it the fastest selling single-system game in history.[55]

As of April 2011, the game has sold 21.94 million copies and is the fifth best-selling (non-bundled) Wii game as well as the second best-selling Mario game on the Wii console (behind Mario Kart Wii).[6]

Super Mario Galaxy has received universal commercial and critical success. By May 2010, Nintendo had sold 8.84 million copies of Super Mario Galaxy worldwide.[54] It is the third best-selling non-bundled Wii game and the seventh best-selling Nintendo-published game for the Wii; the four best-selling Wii games, Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, and Mario Kart Wii,[54] were bundled with the console or an accessory. As of July 9, 2008, the game has sold 912,746 copies in Japan, according to Famitsu.[55][56] According to the NPD Group, since the launch of the Wii, Super Mario Galaxy has become the third best-selling video game in Canada as of April 1, 2008.[57]

Super Mario Galaxy is the second highest-rated game of all time on the review aggregator website TopTenReviews,[3] as well as the second highest of all time on review aggregator website GameRankings.[58] Nintendo Power voted in its August 2008 issue that Super Mario Galaxy was the best game for the Wii; it was also the only Mario game to get a top spot on the list, as well as the only game to be unanimously voted for the top position. NTSC-uk said that Super Mario Galaxy "will influence gaming perceptions, sure to replenish any lost passion".[59] GamePro stated that the title "raises the bar in terms of what can be achieved on the Wii."[43] IGN called Super Mario Galaxy "Wii's best game, and an absolute must-own experience", and "one of the greatest platformers ever played."[7] GameSpot praised its gameplay and level design stating: "if ever there were a must-own Wii game, Super Mario Galaxy is it."[45] Game Revolution noted the variety of gameplay, reliable camera angles and easy to use controls.[44] As of May 2010, the game has sold over 8 million copies worldwide, ranking #8 on the best-selling Wii games list.

Super Mario Galaxy 2 received universal acclaim from major video game critics with numerous reviews praising the game for its creativity and technical improvements over the original. It has an average critic score of 97.07% at GameRankings and 97/100 at Metacritic, making it one of the most highest rated games on the sites.[41][42]

GameSpot editor Tom McShea called it a "new standard for platformers", giving it a perfect 10, making it the seventh game in the site's history to earn that score.[48] Other perfect scores came from Edge, stating "this isn't a game that redefines the genre: this is one that rolls it up and locks it away",[44] and IGN, given by Craig Harris who felt that the game "perfectly captures that classic videogame charm, the reason why most of us got into gaming from the start."[50] The Escapist editor Susan Arendt echoed this view by stating it "doesn't tinker with the established formula very much, but we didn't really want it to",[55] while GameTrailers commented that "there's something tremendous for just about everyone and games that we can truly recommend to almost everyone are rare."[10]

Giant Bomb editor Ryan Davis particularly praised the improved level designs, commenting that the designers were "bolder" and "more willing to take some weird risks with the planetoids and abstract platforming that set the tone in the original Galaxy",[56] while Wired's Chris Kohler commented that the level concepts alone "could be made into full games on their own."[57] Additionally 1UP.com editor Justin Haywald noted the expanded soundtrack as "sweeping".[43] GamesRadar praised the graphics, saying that despite the Wii's technical limitations, Galaxy 2 "understands how to get the most out of aging technology that nearly all graphical flaws are smoothed over or covered up, leaving you with Wii's best-looking title to date".[41] X-Play's Andrew Pfister awarded Super Mario Galaxy 2 a 5/5, calling it "the culmination of 20 years of Mario gaming into one fantastically-designed and creative platformer".[58]

Despite this praise, some critics raised complaints over increased difficulty and the game's similarity to the original Super Mario Galaxy. Official Nintendo Magazine editor Chris Scullion called it the "new best game on Wii", but said it lacked the original's impact (though they admitted the extreme difficulty of this, due to the quality of the original).[51] Game Informer editor Matt Helgeson was concerned with some of the challenges being potentially "frustrating",[59] particularly towards the end of the game;[46] similarly, GamePro editor Ben PerLee remarked that the "increased difficulty and high proficiency requirement may turn new fans off."[47] However, Worthplaying editor Chris DeAngelus said "perhaps most positively of all, there are very few sequences where death will feel like a result of bad design instead of player error, which helps keep the frustration down."[60]

In Japan, Super Mario Galaxy 2 sold 143,000 copies on its first day of release and 340,000 copies in its first week,[61] about 90,000 more than the first Super Mario Galaxy sold in the same amount of time.[62] In North America, the game sold 650,000 copies during the month of May 2010.[63] In the United Kingdom, Super Mario Galaxy 2 was the third best-selling game among multiplatform releases and the best-selling single platform release for the week ending June 26, 2010.[64] As of July 16, 2010, the game has sold 1 million copies within the USA.[65] As of April 2011, Super Mario Galaxy 2 has sold 6.36 million copies worldwide.[6]

Here are the facts.
New Super Mario Bros Wii sold 21.94 million in 18 months
Super Mario Galaxy sold 8 million in 31 months
Super Mario Galaxy 2 sold 6.36 million in 10 months

New Super Mario Bros Wii outsold Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 COMBINED!

The 2D gaming morticians throughout the industry --including the nimrods in the gaming press-- are WRONG.  Not only is there a market for 2D gameplay, but the sales can clearly TROUNCE 3D competition --even in the same franchise.  Now take about 5 minutes to let your imagination run wild and think about what these facts mean to Castlevania.  Konami needs to follow Nintendo's example --get off their lazy asses, invest their Yen and talent in producing the quality 2D Castlevania experience we're all starving for on home consoles!

Let's take it to em.  Join Operation Akumajo.  http://www.facebook.com/pages/Operation-Akumajo/243488722337560

[uzo]

The only hitch here, is, well, it's Mario.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Multiplayer Mario also tends to outsell Singleplayer Mario.
It's still an interesting bit of information... though by that logic, Harmony of Despair should be outselling Lords of Shadow...

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

I am telling you guys 2.5D is the way to go for the CV series.

They already got it right on a handheld with DXC.

Hopfully we get to see what they can pull off with a HD 2.5D Castlevania release for the consoles.

[X]

though by that logic, Harmony of Despair should be outselling Lords of Shadow...

Maybe it would have if the graphics and characters for HD were all original and HD. But I saw almost no evidence of that in there.

[GuyStarwind]

I agree 2.5D is the best way to go. I'm down for 3D. However, it seems 2.5D is a good middle point.

[Sindra]

Anybody know the current sales for Harmony of Despair?

[cecil-kain]

and it continues...

Twilight Princess was released to universal critical acclaim and commercial success. It received perfect scores from major publications such as 1UP.com, CVG, Electronic Gaming Monthly, Game Informer, GamesRadar, and GameSpy.[63][65][67][71][78][79] On the review aggregator MobyGames, it is one of the highest rated games of all time.,[80] while GameTrailers in their review called it one of the greatest games ever created.[81] On TopTenReviews, it has received an average score of 3.86 out of 4, the highest among all games in the Zelda franchise.[82] In the PAL region, which covers most of Asia, Africa, South America, Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific and most of Western Europe, Twilight Princess is the best-selling Zelda game ever. During its first week, the game was sold with three of every four Wii purchases.[83] The game had sold 4.52 million copies on the Wii as of March 1, 2008,[84] and 1.32 million on the GameCube as of March 31, 2007.[85]

Twilight Princess Gamecube/Wii 5.84 million in 17 months

Holy crap New Super Mario Bros sales trump the Mario Galaxy games + Twilight Princess!?!?  This gets more and more interesting....

The only hitch here, is, well, it's Mario.

True.  It is apples and oranges.  I could argue that 2D Mario has more in common with 2D Castlevania than say, 2D Zelda...  But it's interesting to note Mario 64 practically invented 3D platforming as we know it --meanwhile Castlevania has tried 3 times with devisive results.  Also the quality gap between 2D vs 3D is ALOT smaller for Mario than it is for Castlevania.

Multiplayer Mario also tends to outsell Singleplayer Mario.
It's still an interesting bit of information... though by that logic, Harmony of Despair should be outselling Lords of Shadow...

Harmony of Despair has nowhere near the investment of Lords of Shadow and it shows.  Not a fair comparison at all.  It would be more fair to compare Harmony of Despair to the Wii's Super Mario All Star port.

I am telling you guys 2.5D is the way to go for the CV series.

They already got it right on a handheld with DXC.

Hopfully we get to see what they can pull off with a HD 2.5D Castlevania release for the consoles.

Right on.  If Konami has any analytical skill whatsoever, we can help them reach the same conclusion.

Anybody know the current sales for Harmony of Despair?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30301/InDepth_Xbox_Live_Arcade_Sales_Analysis_August_2010.php

The best I can find is that Xbox Live reported about 75,000 downloads for HD the month it was released August 2010...  Still looking for more recent info, but it seems downloaded sales data is a little more elusive...

[Gunlord]

I tend to agree with Uzo-sama's analysis. Like you said yourself, it's an apples to orange comparison--virtually anything Mario will sell. While the new 2d Mario game may have beat out the 3d ones in terms of sales, it's not necessarily because it's 2d--multiplayer was mentioned above, and perhaps the game would have done even *better* if it was in 3d somehow. I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but until we see several 2d games outselling 3d games in a general sense, the success of this Mario game doesn't necessarily bode well for the future of 2d castlevania :/

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

I didn't realize this was some major revelation here. 2D Mario naturally outsells 3D Mario easily. Sean Malstrom has been going on about it for years, and NSMB DS kept appearing high on DS sales charts constantly even years after its release, while 3D Mario drops off like a normal game after the initial push is over.

The thing is, as others have mentioned, you can't EVER look at what 2D Mario does and say Castlevania can follow a similar strategy to get good sales. 2D Mario had its games bundled with systems in the olden days. It has a huge built-in fanbase, it's mass-market friendly, it's simple, and Mario is recognized the world over due to massive marketing campaigns. Castlevania is a niche series, not mass-market friendly, and isn't a 'simple' platformer anymore. Modest sales are really the best that can be hoped for, even for a fully 3D entry like LoS, and that's pretty much all Konami expects.

Castlevania could switch to 2.5D and still have it sell modestly (the Rondo remake wasn't exactly selling like hotcakes). 2.5D won't really generate much more in the way of sales than 2D does though. There's little reason to favor it over 2D unless you prefer it aesthetically. Good marketing is about all that could raise the series' sales at this point, and Konami will not go out on a limb and market it unless they see something that indicates that it can become a big seller if they were to do so (and let's face it, they won't).

About all 2D Mario selling rampantly proves is that 2D isn't fundamentally Castlevania's problem. Unfortunately, the problem is far deeper and is tied integrally into what Castlevania is -- its style; its aesthetics; its nature, and if that has to change so Castlevania can sell well, then personally I don't want Castlevania to sell well, since it likely wouldn't interest me anymore.

[cecil-kain]

I tend to agree with Uzo-sama's analysis. Like you said yourself, it's an apples to orange comparison--virtually anything Mario will sell. While the new 2d Mario game may have beat out the 3d ones in terms of sales, it's not necessarily because it's 2d--multiplayer was mentioned above, and perhaps the game would have done even *better* if it was in 3d somehow. I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but until we see several 2d games outselling 3d games in a general sense, the success of this Mario game doesn't necessarily bode well for the future of 2d castlevania :/

If you wanna talk about 2D 4 player on another major franchise, we could go back a generation and talk about Zelda's 4 Swords Adventures for Gamecube.  I'll bet Wind Waker actually sold much better in that case...  Stupid GBA cionnectivity....  But yes, there are sadly few major 2D franchises to point to on home consoles for this kind of epic comparison.  You have to ask yourself "Would making the Mario Galaxy Games a multiplayer experience change the sales enough to make a dent in in what NSMBWii accomplished?"  That's a fair question, but I'd bet the nature of the gameplay actually dominates the multiplayer experience.

I didn't realize this was some major revelation here. 2D Mario naturally outsells 3D Mario easily. Sean Malstrom has been going on about it for years, and NSMB DS kept appearing high on DS sales charts constantly even years after its release, while 3D Mario drops off like a normal game after the initial push is over.

The thing is, as others have mentioned, you can't EVER look at what 2D Mario does and say Castlevania can follow a similar strategy to get good sales. 2D Mario had its games bundled with systems in the olden days. It has a huge built-in fanbase, it's mass-market friendly, it's simple, and Mario is recognized the world over due to massive marketing campaigns. Castlevania is a niche series, not mass-market friendly, and isn't a 'simple' platformer anymore. Modest sales are really the best that can be hoped for, even for a fully 3D entry like LoS, and that's pretty much all Konami expects.

Castlevania could switch to 2.5D and still have it sell modestly (the Rondo remake wasn't exactly selling like hotcakes). 2.5D won't really generate much more in the way of sales than 2D does though. There's little reason to favor it over 2D unless you prefer it aesthetically. Good marketing is about all that could raise the series' sales at this point, and Konami will not go out on a limb and market it unless they see something that indicates that it can become a big seller if they were to do so (and let's face it, they won't).

About all 2D Mario selling rampantly proves is that 2D isn't fundamentally Castlevania's problem. Unfortunately, the problem is far deeper and is tied integrally into what Castlevania is -- its style; its aesthetics; its nature, and if that has to change so Castlevania can sell well, then personally I don't want Castlevania to sell well, since it likely wouldn't interest me anymore.

2D outselling 3D in any form has never been front page news.  I understand the knee-jerk reaction to compare Mario to Castlevania...  but you guys need to compare the comparisons.  Does that many any sense?

(2D Mario Vs 3D Mario) compared to (2D Castlevania Vs 3D Castlevania)

If 2D Mario is considered vastly superior to 3D Mario, well --that certainly is news to me.  That's what the sales seem to indicate.  What isn't news is that 2D Castlevania is widely considered to be vastly superior to 3D Castlevania.  So if Konami designed a 2D Castlevania with the same pride and diligence Nintendo showered on 2D Mario --what do you think the sales would look like?

If the NSMBWii example existed before Konami started the Dracula X Chronicles, I'll bet IGA could have pushed for an HD console release.

[darkwzrd4]

I would like to make a point that no one has mentioned yet.  Unless I am misinformed, both Mario and Zelda games don't follow a continuing story line (at least not one as long as CV).  Prior to LoS, CV had a storyline that is 25 years in the making.  It is my opinion that between the length of the series, the fact that multiple teams have been messing with the timeline, and that IGA tends to use a completely backward method when it comes to making a new game, CV will remain the way it is. 
I mean, from what I've heard, IGA starts with the protagonist and their method of combat before shoehorning it into the existing storyline.  It doesn't make sense shoehorning something into an existing series in that fashion.  He should start with the existing storyline and then create something that will fit nicely rather than being sloppily shoehorned in the timeline.
That being said, I think the old cannon is almost filled short of some gaidens for characters like Sypha before the events of CV3, the 1999 game, and the SotN sequel.  With that in mind, if those things are done, we should then focus on the new storyline that starts with LoS and hope for the best.

[KaZudra]

HD did sell alot and was top seller for a week or so, a 2.5D Co-op optional Vania would work if you get solid stages and whatnot.

[Laughing skeleton]

The Megaman franchise had a revival after a long hiatus retaining its original 2-D gameplay, and it sold comparatively well.
Hopefully vintage fans with 2-D castlevania as part of their dear gaming heritage would follow suit if Konami acted
along the lines you suggest.  Its good to hear 2-D mario is carrying classic gaming experiences to the new generation.
While posters here make a convincing case against this event being a good market indicator, as a loyal follower of the darkness I'd consider it an omen that Dracula may again return to us in his most awesome and dreadful form.

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

2D outselling 3D in any form has never been front page news.

Just pointing out that it has been to me, although basically only in Mario, since that's one of the few instances I know of. I don't know what Donkey Kong Country Returns' sales look like compared to the 3D entries though. It's possible they're better too. The Wii has a lot of 2D games to appeal to the old school hardcore fans, if they can stomach the fact that the themes and styles are still mostly still aimed at young kids.

What isn't news is that 2D Castlevania is widely considered to be vastly superior to 3D Castlevania.

It is among the old school hardcore fans, but your "widely" changes that by bringing larger segments of the population into play, so I'll go with that. What is generally referred to as "hardcore" in gaming marketing today -- the "core," the segments of gaming who are represented largely by the PS3 and 360 -- will tend to prefer a 3D Castlevania. These are the people  CV64, LoD, LoI, CoD, and LoS were intended to reach, as well as those among the old school hardcore fans who would like a 3D action CV too (and it obviously can still appeal to that group as well).

But then you have the new swath of "casual" gamers brought in by the Wii and who trickled in for earlier consoles (perhaps some had a PS2 as well but probably few of what those of us here would consider great titles). These are the group that NSMBWii most appeals to and where a great deal of its sales come from. And it appeals to the old school hardcore fan too due to nostalgia and being familiar with the style from younger days. So you essentially have concentric rings of larger and larger groups. NSMBWii largely skips the core and appeals to the old school and the casual.

Now when we consider what is considered "widely" better than something else I assume we're including all these groups. The thing is, this new casual group doesn't really "consider" CV at all. They probably only vaguely know it exists if that. So then we get into the other two groups, the old school and the core, and there we see the core's preference for 3D trump 2D CVs. So that is essentially what makes 3D CV "widely" trump 2D CV. The thing is, the majority of the casual group probably wouldn't like 2D CV even if it knew it existed, for other reasons -- mostly stylistic and theme related, although because of the casual group's large size, it's possible for even a minority of them to trump the core in size and sales.

Keep in mind that as with any demographic analysis, these aren't hard and fast groups though, there's some level of abstraction and bleed over. It's perfectly possible for someone who played the 2D CVs as a kid or young adult to have grown up to prefer the 3D entries completely or still have fervent desire for both 2D and 3D entries, and  you'll see these groups represented here as well.

So if Konami designed a 2D Castlevania with the same pride and diligence Nintendo showered on 2D Mario --what do you think the sales would look like?

Probably a bit above DS CV level sales, assuming it's on a platform with a good install base. Pretty modest cult hit that's very acclaimed by professional reviewers (although the DS CVs already are pretty liked by pro reviewers actually). Now if by pride and diligence you mean in large amounts of actual marketing which Konami simply doesn't do for CV outside the game mags and sites and such (which doesn't reach outside segments of the old school  market and some of the core market, if that), then I'm not sure. That muddies the waters a bit and it might be able to sell higher. Mind you, still nowhere near NSMBWii or some other Nintendo first party stuff. I doubt it'd hit 1 million, but it'd probably be better than DS CV levels.

If the NSMBWii example existed before Konami started the Dracula X Chronicles, I'll bet IGA could have pushed for an HD console release.

I have to disagree sadly. Castlevania and Mario are just in totally different universes, so Konami seeing what NSMBWii can do largely would have no impact on their CV strategy (what they'd allow IGA to do). What works for Mario does not work for Castlevania, not only because Castlevania doesn't have the marketing Mario has had, but also because NSMBWii is a somewhat different type of platformer from CV (even Rondo) and has a vastly different style. Probably a large percentage of NSMBWii sales are due to the steady Mario marketing, and longing for a simple Mario platforming experience like the old NES-SNES styles before all this complexity came into gaming, or someone new to gaming (the casual wave) who also wants something simple like that.