Topic: Exolutionary Steps to make Metroidvanis better...?

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

I respectfully disagree with half of what you're saying.

A level-up system is not, in my opinion, a major part of a "Metroidvania" game.  The core of Metroidvania gameplay is an open sprawling world and accessing new areas after acquiring abilities.  That is all.
I do agree that a Metroidvania without a level-up system would feel different than the ones we've had.
And I am totally OK with that, and am looking forward to that one such game, if it's ever made.

[Chernabogue]

I respectfully disagree with half of what you're saying.

A level-up system is not, in my opinion, a major part of a "Metroidvania" game.  The core of Metroidvania gameplay is an open sprawling world and accessing new areas after acquiring abilities.  That is all.
I do agree that a Metroidvania without a level-up system would feel different than the ones we've had.
And I am totally OK with that, and am looking forward to that one such game, if it's ever made.

PoR's level-1 mode was kickass, but definitively very, very hard. It'd be interesting to see a well balanced, non-level-up game.

[Kusanagi]

A level-up system is not, in my opinion, a major part of a "Metroidvania" game.  The core of Metroidvania gameplay is an open sprawling world and accessing new areas after acquiring abilities.  That is all.
I do agree that a Metroidvania without a level-up system would feel different than the ones we've had.
And I am totally OK with that, and am looking forward to that one such game, if it's ever made.

I don't mind that type of gameplay either, but Im also willing to defend that the current leveling up system is still fun for some people. For as long as the leveling up system is not removed entirely from the future metroidvanias to come, then Im all for having some with the suggested gameplay. Someone will surely complain about it if a metroidvania were to play like that, but not everyone can be pleased ^^"

That said...

PoR's level-1 mode was kickass, but definitively very, very hard. It'd be interesting to see a well balanced, non-level-up game.

Hearing the challenge makes me want to give that mode a shot xD But much agreed with seeing a well balanced, non-level-up metroidvania. If they can pull it off well, I'll be happy to play it. Regardless of the leveling up system there or not; similarly to what Jorge said, The leveling up system isn't everything for a metroidvania game.

[KaZudra]

the thing is about the level system,
yes its fun, but at the end of the game and you gotta grind, guess where you'll be spending a couple hours at?
1 same area. going back and forth, this is the exact same with Souls/weapons/glyphs/skills
The problem isn't the existance of the level system, its the existance of the Grinding aspect that gets very, very old.
Solution is to knock things down a bit in rates so leveling would be morderatly fast and you wont have to spend an hour or 2 for that thing you want.
I remember spending an hour and a half for 1 ghost dancer soul (DoS)
3 hours for a Bloody Mermaid meat (OoE)
and 2 hours for a runesword (SoTN)
I'm not saying just hand it over, I say at most 30 mins should do the trick so you wont mindlessly grind.

[Maedhros]

Grinding is not necessary to finish any of the metroidvanias. If you guys are grinding, you're doing something wrong.

[Kusanagi]

the thing is about the level system,
yes its fun, but at the end of the game and you gotta grind, guess where you'll be spending a couple hours at?
1 same area. going back and forth, this is the exact same with Souls/weapons/glyphs/skills
The problem isn't the existence of the level system, its the existance of the Grinding aspect that gets very, very old.
Solution is to knock things down a bit in rates so leveling would be morderatly fast and you wont have to spend an hour or 2 for that thing you want.
I remember spending an hour and a half for 1 ghost dancer soul (DoS)
3 hours for a Bloody Mermaid meat (OoE)
and 2 hours for a runesword (SoTN)
I'm not saying just hand it over, I say at most 30 mins should do the trick so you wont mindlessly grind.

Hmm, your argument seems more directed towards the drop rates of the game vs leveling up, but I'll talk about both anyways xD

In regards to base stat leveling up you don't necessarily need to stay in one area to train unless you choose to, and with adjustment to the enemy AIs and their stats (strength, defense, how much exp they drop, etc), then leveling up won't seem so tedious and can seem more natural and progressive. If a game were to be designed with that thought in mind (which is the case for most konami metroidvania's I've seen), then the castle of the game would need an increase in size as so each room's enemy level range is more narrow and grinding won't be as tedious. Not to mention the equipment you will find often help balance out the playing field, or at least they should be strong enough to help against the boss of that area. For as long as the game can be balanced out that way, the leveling up system is still there for those who want it, yet most players can just go through and look for the equipment to balance out their stats against their enemies. Ontop of that, it will come down to the skill of the player to get through each battle; stats isn't the only determining point when fighting bosses and such.

Based on the examples you gave at the bottom, the grinding issue seems to be more apparent with the drop rates of particular items, glyphs, etc. That one I can say that a good number of people will find it tedious to farm for those items (even myself at times). The thing with drops (not including story related/effecting drops), they're completely optional and you can go through the game without it. Of course if you want an edge on your opponents you will need to grind for it, which is why the designers made them hard to get because of how useful they would be. All that said, I don't mind the drop rate being increased a little however (particularly for story related/effecting drops).

Whether the player goes through the game by only leveling up, only gathering equips, or both (which is mostly the case), is entirely up to them. Again, skill will still be the most important factor in every fight you go through. I simply wanted to defend the "base stats" leveling up system, because while the changes may be small per level, they still have an effect on the overall game and gives you feel a sense of accomplishment after killing enough enemies.

[KaZudra]

Hmm, your argument seems more directed towards the drop rates of the game vs leveling up, but I'll talk about both anyways xD

In regards to base stat leveling up you don't necessarily need to stay in one area to train unless you choose to, and with adjustment to the enemy AIs and their stats (strength, defense, how much exp they drop, etc), then leveling up won't seem so tedious and can seem more natural and progressive. If a game were to be designed with that thought in mind (which is the case for most konami metroidvania's I've seen), then the castle of the game would need an increase in size as so each room's enemy level range is more narrow and grinding won't be as tedious. Not to mention the equipment you will find often help balance out the playing field, or at least they should be strong enough to help against the boss of that area. For as long as the game can be balanced out that way, the leveling up system is still there for those who want it, yet most players can just go through and look for the equipment to balance out their stats against their enemies. Ontop of that, it will come down to the skill of the player to get through each battle; stats isn't the only determining point when fighting bosses and such.

Based on the examples you gave at the bottom, the grinding issue seems to be more apparent with the drop rates of particular items, glyphs, etc. That one I can say that a good number of people will find it tedious to farm for those items (even myself at times). The thing with drops (not including story related/effecting drops), they're completely optional and you can go through the game without it. Of course if you want an edge on your opponents you will need to grind for it, which is why the designers made them hard to get because of how useful they would be. All that said, I don't mind the drop rate being increased a little however (particularly for story related/effecting drops).

Whether the player goes through the game by only leveling up, only gathering equips, or both (which is mostly the case), is entirely up to them. Again, skill will still be the most important factor in every fight you go through. I simply wanted to defend the "base stats" leveling up system, because while the changes may be small per level, they still have an effect on the overall game and gives you feel a sense of accomplishment after killing enough enemies.

gotcha.

new suggestion, Smarter Enemies, More attacks for enemies and overall more complex enemies.

[Belmont Stakes]

Platforming. The Zelda style works the Metroidvania/RPG does not. Level grind if you must but it does not equate to great gaming by my standard. Take a look at Prince of Persia for the SNES. It had exploration but also had leveling up and instant death. IMO Prince of Persia is the best game I ever played. I am not adverse to grinding. In Adventure of Link you has to grind but you got places with it and there was a level boost after every boss battle. That horizontal shaft and vertical spaces need to have death pits and traps. SOTN did not have any of that.

[whitedragon_nall]

Grinding is not necessary to finish any of the metroidvanias. If you guys are grinding, you're doing something wrong.

Yeah. I don't recall ever feeling it was necessary to grind.

[Kusanagi]

gotcha.

new suggestion, Smarter Enemies, More attacks for enemies and overall more complex enemies.

Much agreed with that. The smarter they are, the harder they will be to defeat without the need of altering their stats at all xD Then even those who level grind will find it harder to defeat the enemies.

Platforming. The Zelda style works the Metroidvania/RPG does not. Level grind if you must but it does not equate to great gaming by my standard. Take a look at Prince of Persia for the SNES. It had exploration but also had leveling up and instant death. IMO Prince of Persia is the best game I ever played. I am not adverse to grinding. In Adventure of Link you has to grind but you got places with it and there was a level boost after every boss battle. That horizontal shaft and vertical spaces need to have death pits and traps. SOTN did not have any of that.

Indeed major platforming sections were not that big in SOTN, but there were some traps (just the game was not trap heavy like prince of persia). Instant kill in metroidvanias might not be the best received, as one mistake will have the player sent back all the way to their last save point (and it would be repetitive having to reload the game every time you miss a jump and fall to your doom). Unless of course falling simply has the player take some amount of damage and teleports the player back to the last block they were standing on.

That said, bringing in a few more platforming challenges and traps would be interesting for the game, in a sense it would make the game feel a bit more like the classics.

[Belmont Stakes]

Much agreed with that. The smarter they are, the harder they will be to defeat without the need of altering their stats at all xD Then even those who level grind will find it harder to defeat the enemies.
Indeed major platforming sections were not that big in SOTN, but there were some traps (just the game was not trap heavy like prince of persia). Instant kill in metroidvanias might not be the best received, as one mistake will have the player sent back all the way to their last save point (and it would be repetitive having to reload the game every time you miss a jump and fall to your doom). Unless of course falling simply has the player take some amount of damage and teleports the player back to the last block they were standing on.

That said, bringing in a few more platforming challenges and traps would be interesting for the game, in a sense it would make the game feel a bit more like the classics.

       As much as I hate to admit it I miss the days of overbloated aggravation from Ninja Gaiden Act 6-2. That may be the extreme example, but I like consequence in my gaming. Call me a glutton for eye strain but it's what made Castlevania epic in my opinion. Maybe they could figure out a way to make  fair save systems before and after an obscenely difficult platforming area.
But then again how many people hate Mario's platforming?

[Kusanagi]

As much as I hate to admit it I miss the days of overbloated aggravation from Ninja Gaiden Act 6-2. That may be the extreme example, but I like consequence in my gaming. Call me a glutton for eye strain but it's what made Castlevania epic in my opinion. Maybe they could figure out a way to make  fair save systems before and after an obscenely difficult platforming area.
But then again how many people hate Mario's platforming?

Well if we change the instant death to just taking damage every time you fall, I think it would be fair enough that way. Instant death due to falling to your doom in a metroidvania might be too harsh, but then again us gamers have gone through similar before.

But we could do that way as well; designated save points before and after the section.
I'll be very happy to see more platforming challenges either way xD (But Im sure we'll all dread medusa heads flying at us if going through that section)

[X]

But then again how many people hate Mario's platforming?

This was me in SMB 2 jap aka the lost levels. That was stupidly painful and couldn't stop cussing every time 

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Well if we change the instant death to just taking damage every time you fall, I think it would be fair enough that way. Instant death due to falling to your doom in a metroidvania might be too harsh, but then again us gamers have gone through similar before.

But we could do that way as well; designated save points before and after the section.
I'll be very happy to see more platforming challenges either way xD (But Im sure we'll all dread medusa heads flying at us if going through that section)

That would also be like Zelda.  In the old Zelda games, you took one heart of damage and would be sent back to the beginning of the pit.  It wouldn't be too hard to implement.
In the 3D Zelda games, Link falls, screams, you get a weird sound, screen fades to black, and you come back to the room you're in with a heart's worth of health missing.
They even did this in Lords of Shadow, where after a failed jump, you'd come back just prior to that jump, with less health.

[Laughing skeleton]

Leveling up might not be necessary or optimum, but it does give you the opportunity to not only get totally lost in a castle of undead, but to develop a kind of special attachment to one area of the castle, haunting it if you will... while your greed for power slowly consumes your (very real) life, you might even start thinking those statues by the wall could be talking while your not looking...