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Offline TheouAegis

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #255 on: January 07, 2012, 04:54:17 PM »
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This is the problem with sales logistics. You see it all the time in the movie industry.

Pirates Of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides was a domestic FLOP, but internationally it was a success, grossing over a billion dollars in sales. That could be compared in a way to LoS - domestically (within the CV fanbase) it may be a flop, but if it snags a large number of GoW fans, enough to cover the costs, it's a success.

Tangled was another domestic flop but international success. Golden Compass was nearly a flop on both fronts, but all combined it was profitable. That's another problem with this. If LoS is a flop with the CV fanbase and a flop with the GoW fanbase, but all totaled it is profitable, then it's still profitable in Konami's eyes.

Then we look at films like Paranormal Activity, supposedly made on a budget of $15k and making $300k total (domestic and internationally). $300k gross sales would be a flop in Hollywood, but for the guys that made Paranormal Activity, that's a huge profit. If Konami gets trapped in the Hollywood mindset, it could fail to see insanely profitable ventures to fruition simply because they might compare end profits to different tiers. If you're going to earmark a game with a $500k budget, you damn well better make $1m in sales. But if you earmark a game with a $20k budget, $100k in sales is 250% more profitable for them. But then, if that $500k game grosses $580k in sales, how is that any different than the $20k game making $100k? The point is, it was a riskier venture for a $500k movie. Also, the $20k game could have probably sold for half the price of the $500k game, meaning that $100k sales translates into an even higher profit. But high volume sales isn't for everyone. (My boss has one of the most expensive stores cuz she marks everything at 50% markup, even shit she buys from Dollar Tree.)
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Offline e105beta

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #256 on: January 07, 2012, 06:35:06 PM »
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Tangled was a flop?

Now I'm sad. That movie was adorable.

Offline cecil-kain

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #257 on: January 07, 2012, 06:51:17 PM »
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Honest feedback does not equals only your opinion.

Agreed.  That’s why the Mission Statement was carefully tailored to appeal to hardcore Castlevania fans based on CVD polling, popular topics, common complaints, and a couple of “dream project” games that have been widely speculated, discussed, and coveted by the fans for many, many years...  Why is it such a stretch for you to believe that some of your fellow fans may not share your opinions that old-school Castlevanias should be replaced by Lords of Shadow?  Naturally, you would hawk LoS’ sales in response, so let me take my point a step further and point out that the sales only represent the mass market, not necessarily the loyalty of the Castlevania fanbase.  David Cox himself had repeatedly said that mass market appeal was the LoS’ primary objective all along...

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I am sorry, but it's called "grasping on straws". No matter how you look at it LOS sold more than previous CV games in the past ten years and that what ultimately matters. And I believe it is exactly what Konami will be looking at, choosing direction for the next CV title.

I’ve already acknowledged LoS’ sales, Konami’s satisfaction, and the real likelihood of a sequel.  But you need to understand that while businesses do care about their sales, their main concern is the bottom line --it’s all about PROFIT.  And at 1 million copies sold, we have only the vaguest idea how profitable LoS was compared to other games in the seires.  Without the hard data on revenue and production costs, the real profits are unknowable both in terms of dollars and percentages.  Therefore we are not in a position to have any intelligent debate about the merits of any particular games’ performance --especially if you want to gloat and make comparisons.  Any argument to that end would be *highly* speculative.

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Considering that you try to provide "demand" for something that is "remake a really old game and market it to 300,000 people with a budget that should be aiming for multi-millions", I doubt Konami will take it seriously. They want good sells, not realization of your desires. So, your demands need at least some sort of base to them. Not just "WE WANT IT!!".

OA has never specifically requested “multi-millions” to be budgeted for these games.  We’re not pretending to know the relevant production costs, because Konami really doesn’t even publish that kind of data.  What we’re requesting is a “serious investment” which is wide open to *professional* interpretation.  And just for the sake of argument, let’s suppose the market is locked at 300,000 hardcore fans.  Konami should respond by asking “how much money are these fans willing to pay for a “serious investment?”  And the more I think about it, the more I’m realizing that’s a question that will eventually need to be answered....

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Actually such project should have been started around the POR (or maybe even DOS) times, when the series began to go awry. Then it could have a chance to establish some connection with Konami, while IGA was at the helm, and probably more or less have some influence on their design decisions. As of now, this project comes a bit too late, when the major decisions regarding series future already have been made. In the essence OA fights with the consequences, not with the reason. And that's why I actually doubt it will have major influence (if any at all) on the Konami politics regarding the Castlevania.

You know what, I think we can agree on this.  We really deserve some blame for sitting on our asses for too long.  Now the stakes are higher and the challenges are severe --not to mention there’s no sympathetic insider to lend a hand...

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And in the end it basically reduces number of people who aware about OA initiative.

The best we can do is to work on raising awareness for the cause, and then let the fans decide if it’s worth supporting.  If OA grows with exposure, we’ll eventually get the numbers we need to make our case to Konami.  But if we stagnate in spite of the exposure, the members will lose faith, and we’ll eventually fade into the sunset.  Right now it’s really too early to say, one way or the other.
 
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I meant overall thing. Like demanding certain games with certain conditions, that probably only you want to see.

You’re personalizing again.  There are more opinions on this forum and within this fanbase than yours and mine.  Have you asked anyone else what they want?

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You misundersatnd me. It's not about "demanding mediocre", it's about making demand less specific to your taste. Make them more general, not like "return IGA or ELSE".

There's certainly a broader appeal by generalizing...  But if we’re not specific about demanding a certain level of quality, there’s a danger that Konami would think we can be pacified by inferior or mediocre products.

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The same could be said about OA "movement". Wasn't it your personal bias against new approach to the CV that made you start this project?


No.  Operation: Akumajo was founded on the CVD back in July in reaction to Konami’s imminent failure to celebrate the 25th Anniversary.  Most of the active members here already know that, and for those that don't it's also explained in the Mission Statement.

Also, I know you gave me more to respond to by addressing my points to e105beta...  I'll respond to those points when I find a little more time.

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #258 on: January 07, 2012, 08:10:36 PM »
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Ok what I am about to post might been seen as odd heck even dumb but I don't care. Just forget the matter of a 2-D or even 3-D game and which to give priority to. Instead of all this bickering on what is cv and not just concretrate on one point the quality and time taken care into the series. Why so over complicated? Why this and that and the other just make it a point just to put quality no thinking outside boxes or no failure in 3D or something that might just proper time I think that would be the most reasonable thing to do not ask for game a or remake b just move foward but with the time and investment just a simple request damn now my body feels all odd I do not know why I put this it feels redundant but there is just one thing we all should do. Just join together and not be divided and stuff join for a common cause that great quality I think that is something we all can agree on(yeah I'am done now, yet for some reason I just cannot explain what I want to type down all that well).
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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #259 on: January 07, 2012, 10:53:27 PM »
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OA has never specifically requested “multi-millions” to be budgeted for these games. We’re not pretending to know the relevant production costs, because Konami really doesn’t even publish that kind of data.  What we’re requesting is a “serious investment”
 
Yet you ask for remastered HD 2D games, which generally, if as you are saying, you want to be of good quality- will cost a pretty penny. All games these days cost a ton of money to make. And buy as well. So if you are asking for HD high quality 2D games, well first, lets think of on what platform they would be on. They would most likely currently be the 3DS, since that is the newest handheld next gen. it could be a downloadable on the Wii, but with the Wii-U in the works, I dont think they would try and release the game for a system that will die down soon enough. not to mention a downloadable game will not garner as much attention, nor exposure. (ill get back to that in a bit) But then theres the matter of what exactly you want with "HD" "High Quality". Do you want super high quality 3D/2.5D models? or Hand Drawn animated types like Blazblue and Bloodrayne Betrayal? Either of those could easily cost a lot of money. Every decision of the game you have to take into consideration when you say you want Konami to make you a game.

And then Konami before even THINKING about lifting a finger has to estimate how many units they might sell, or, if that data isnt available, set a standard, a bar, a sales number. So they make the game and sell it. if it does not meet their financial standards, then konami lost money from that move. They used more than they regained, and will never cave to fan wants again.

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I really don't understand this --why should a multiverse be such a divisive idea?

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Let LoS series go its own way and tell its own story,
Because some of us prefer our multiverses to be neat and tidy. just rejecting LoS and saying "let it go it's own way, we will stick to what we know and like", isnt the approach many of us want. We like out traditional vanias, and we liked aspects and parts of LoS, and want to include it into our tastes by changing things we felt did not work or should not work.

the majority of us dont distinguish between "Akumajo Dracula" and "Castlevania" because its the same damn thing. you are just taking Cox's words way too literally. And it's not like the "Castlevania" title hasnt gone to Japan before either.

why should we just abandon LoS? I for one, would rather work with it so future entries can be enjoyable to both sides of the argument. The hardcore fans of the franchise, and the outside crowd that the fresh different approach is meant to bring in.

Also, I simply just dont really agree with your idea of bringing back Akumajo Dracula. or the "soul" of the series. You insist upon 2D. and while 2D is nice and all, I for one, would much rather Konami perfect their 3D formula. Seriously, it took them an outside team to make a high quality well made 3Dvania? (say what you will about the story, the gameplay and everything about that is great, and fun.)

before I forget, back to what I said about downloadable games.

You insist on 2D, when these days, no matter how high quality they may be, they are 1 of 2 things. Either a handheld, or a downloadable. And the higher the quality and production values, the more likely it is to be a downloadable console title. but the problem with those is, they do not get any attention outside of those who actively seek them. AKA they dont go onto store shelves where they are easier to market and/or/ buy

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Offline cecil-kain

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #260 on: January 08, 2012, 01:09:21 AM »
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I don't divide Castlevania for "Castlevania" and "Akumajou Dracula".
SOTN is Castlevania, but so is LOS. It's different games, set in different worlds, but part of the same series with the same name.

I have always believed Castlevania = Akumajo Dracula.  It was my opinion that Los is not an Akumajo Dracula game, and therefore LoS is not Castlevania.

Enter David Cox to explain.  November 11, 2011 on Twitter

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Stanislav Plakhov: Mr.Cox can I ask you a question? Why CLoS wasn't released in Japan as a part of Akumajo Dracula series. Just curious.

David Cox: Because it's not part of the Akumajo Dracula series.

Stanislav Plakhov: Simple. But isn't it a part of Castlevania series which is kind of... you know, the same thing (to me at least).

David Cox: It's not the same thing. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow has nothing to do with Akumajo series. It's completely separate.” It's a whole new approach, a new brand that uses certain DNA from previous CV games from the series but it isn't part of it. its set in a separate universe. It's doesn't follow any other CV game. Make sense now?

Stanislav Plakhov: All right. Thanks. I know all that. Not new to the series. Playing it since the very first game. Thanks for answering anyway.

Just curious --how you would interpret this conversation?

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It doesn't matter in the end. We know that LOS sequel is produced and HD was canned with ridicilous 8-bit rehash. It speaks for itself.

Again, this is completely speculative scenario, but...  How do we know Harmony of Despair didn’t have a massive profit margin?  We don’t know the DLC sales, nor do we know the revenues.  Although we don’t know the production cost, we can see quite clearly that it may be the most cheaply produced game in the whole series --undeniably peanuts compares to LoS’s budget.  The only thing we really know for certain is that Konami thought it would be worthwhile to port over to the PSN, and that’s about it...  Don’t mistake this as me defending HD, because I’m not --but you are making a mistake writing this game off without knowing the facts of how it affected Konami’s bottom line.

I've suspected both Rebirth and HD may be trial balloons to help Konami decide what to do with the Akumajo series.  They may be far more profitable than any of us realize...

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And they wouldn't care about them as long as the game will bring them money.

My point exactly.

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And honestly they not that obligated to do so.

Agreed, but throwing loyal fans under the bus is kinda shitty.

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And you tell that you are not biased against LOS after that? LOL.

Am I biased in the sense that LoS is not a legitimate Akumajo Dracula reboot?  ABSOLUTELY!

Am I biased against LoS as high-quality hardcore gamer’s game?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I happen to enjoy both Twix and Snickers candy bars.  But if someone slips a Twix in a Snickers wrapper, I have the intellectual honesty to stand up and say “this Twix is NOT a Snickers bar!”

And on the subject of bias, you should expect than I am biased in favor of Operation: Akumajo --I am after all, the founder.  I haven’t made any false pretenses of objectivity here, so I make no apologies for espousing these views.

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LOS is about trying to get profit from the exhausted series, applying to it generous amount of paint and cement of modern action game philosophy. Exactly what should be done with the franchise that literally stucked in the past and abysmal copypasting of itself. Reinvention by modernization and radical change of approach. In many ways it is experimental and alienating for some, but exactly that allows to see the potential, where previously people saw nothing.

Besides fans already were disappointed with direction of the DOS, POR and some were disappointed with OOE. Even if LOS was never created any next Castlevania most likely completely shattered fanbase for the group who wanted more "metroidvanias" and for the people who wanted something else (anything else). LOS just made it in differen way, but, ironically, still in the same vein.

I hope that LOS's sequel will change this situation and LOS subseries will be hailed as modern 3D view of what Castlevania should be in general.

Quality problems don’t necessarily mean you need to reinvent the wheel.  There is such a thing as going too far, and that’s where the discord comes from.  As for the sequel addressing fans’ concerns and complaints, that’s an interesting possibility.  It would be nice to think David Cox is considering critical feedback, but he seems rather ambivalent toward the fans and indignant toward critics...  I seem to remember him getting upset over IGN’s LoS review in particular...

Offline cecil-kain

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #261 on: January 08, 2012, 02:35:05 AM »
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Ok what I am about to post might been seen as odd heck even dumb but I don't care. Just forget the matter of a 2-D or even 3-D game and which to give priority to. Instead of all this bickering on what is cv and not just concretrate on one point the quality and time taken care into the series. Why so over complicated? Why this and that and the other just make it a point just to put quality no thinking outside boxes or no failure in 3D or something that might just proper time I think that would be the most reasonable thing to do not ask for game a or remake b just move foward but with the time and investment just a simple request damn now my body feels all odd I do not know why I put this it feels redundant but there is just one thing we all should do. Just join together and not be divided and stuff join for a common cause that great quality I think that is something we all can agree on(yeah I'am done now, yet for some reason I just cannot explain what I want to type down all that well).

I understand what you're saying here, but we really can't deny that LoS had already delivered high quality and secured the future of the 3-D games.  The only real quality problems that exist right now are on the 2-D side, which also face the possibility of utter extinction.

Yet you ask for remastered HD 2D games, which generally, if as you are saying, you want to be of good quality- will cost a pretty penny. All games these days cost a ton of money to make. And buy as well. So if you are asking for HD high quality 2D games, well first, lets think of on what platform they would be on. They would most likely currently be the 3DS, since that is the newest handheld next gen. it could be a downloadable on the Wii, but with the Wii-U in the works, I dont think they would try and release the game for a system that will die down soon enough. not to mention a downloadable game will not garner as much attention, nor exposure. (ill get back to that in a bit) But then theres the matter of what exactly you want with "HD" "High Quality". Do you want super high quality 3D/2.5D models? or Hand Drawn animated types like Blazblue and Bloodrayne Betrayal? Either of those could easily cost a lot of money. Every decision of the game you have to take into consideration when you say you want Konami to make you a game.

OA endorsed HD home consoles for 2 reasons.  First, because HD consoles have more potential in terms of quality.  And secondly, to help the 2-D games escape the portable rut.  Hard copy vs digistrib really shouldn't matter, but you may have a legitimate point about exposure --OA hasn't taken a position either way.

The artform of 2.5 models vs Hi-res Sprites was left open to Konami's interpretation.  Although I personally enjoyed the 2.5 D style of the DXC --I know of some fans would actually prefer the hi-res sprites.  Either way, Castlevania really needs to get beyond recycling these 18 year old Rondo graphics.

And yes, a "serious investment" is meant to imply larger budgets.  But since neither you nor I know how anything about real production costs, we're better off not even speculating of the specifics --let the professionals who have access to that kind of information make their own judgments about what constitutes a serious investment, relative to the high-quality standards that have been requested.

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And then Konami before even THINKING about lifting a finger has to estimate how many units they might sell, or, if that data isnt available, set a standard, a bar, a sales number. So they make the game and sell it. if it does not meet their financial standards, then konami lost money from that move. They used more than they regained, and will never cave to fan wants again.

Considering the last 4 portable games sold well over 300,000 copies, that would seem to be a reasonable benchmark.  But the key thing they really need to know is "How much are those fans willing to pay to offset the production cost and generate profits?"  That would be a determining factor in determining the size of a "serious investment"

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Because some of us prefer our multiverses to be neat and tidy. just rejecting LoS and saying "let it go it's own way, we will stick to what we know and like", isnt the approach many of us want. We like out traditional vanias, and we liked aspects and parts of LoS, and want to include it into our tastes by changing things we felt did not work or should not work.

LoS2 may possibly well have some sort of redemption, but that really depends on Cox opening himself up to fan feedback.  I could be wrong, but I'm guessing he's caught up in an echo chamber of positive reviews and praise from the new fans that his game has attracted.

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the majority of us dont distinguish between "Akumajo Dracula" and "Castlevania" because its the same damn thing. you are just taking Cox's words way too literally. And it's not like the "Castlevania" title hasnt gone to Japan before either.

Cox specifically noted Akumajo and Castlevania are not the same thing.  Here's the quote again.

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Stanislav Plakhov: Mr.Cox can I ask you a question? Why CLoS wasn't released in Japan as a part of Akumajo Dracula series. Just curious.

David Cox: Because it's not part of the Akumajo Dracula series.

Stanislav Plakhov: Simple. But isn't it a part of Castlevania series which is kind of... you know, the same thing (to me at least).

David Cox: It's not the same thing. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow has nothing to do with Akumajo series. It's completely separate.” It's a whole new approach, a new brand that uses certain DNA from previous CV games from the series but it isn't part of it. its set in a separate universe. It's doesn't follow any other CV game. Make sense now?

Stanislav Plakhov: All right. Thanks. I know all that. Not new to the series. Playing it since the very first game. Thanks for answering anyway.

You and I can disagree with his views, but Cox is the man in charge right now.  :-S

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why should we just abandon LoS? I for one, would rather work with it so future entries can be enjoyable to both sides of the argument. The hardcore fans of the franchise, and the outside crowd that the fresh different approach is meant to bring in.

I never suggested abandoning LoS.  The lesson here was to live and let live, and make everyone happy with a multiversal approach.  If LoS2 is has the ambition to be a redemption, that's just fine --either way it IS Konami's vision for 3-D Castlevania.  All the more reason for OA to focus on the 2-D side of the equation...

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Also, I simply just dont really agree with your idea of bringing back Akumajo Dracula. or the "soul" of the series. You insist upon 2D. and while 2D is nice and all, I for one, would much rather Konami perfect their 3D formula. Seriously, it took them an outside team to make a high quality well made 3Dvania? (say what you will about the story, the gameplay and everything about that is great, and fun.)

The gameplay and format are really issues of personal taste.  I enjoyed the gameplay much more than the format actually --the combat cross was THE best feature of the game IMO.  And again.  Regardless of my personal taste, OA's primary concern is the mythology, and secondly westernizing of the brand.

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before I forget, back to what I said about downloadable games.

You insist on 2D, when these days, no matter how high quality they may be, they are 1 of 2 things. Either a handheld, or a downloadable. And the higher the quality and production values, the more likely it is to be a downloadable console title. but the problem with those is, they do not get any attention outside of those who actively seek them. AKA they dont go onto store shelves where they are easier to market and/or/ buy

Perhaps...  But we do have a few shining exceptions that have been very successful.  I'm very anxious to see what Sonic Generation's sale look like a year from now....

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #262 on: January 08, 2012, 03:11:09 AM »
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Of course, but between the sales, Konami's excitement at said sales, Cox's claimed budget, the confirmation of a sequel, and my knowledge of the industry, I'd be more than willing to argue it was successful.

I agreed that it was successful. I mentioned in the first post that by all the metrics I've seen both LoS and the 2D games have gotten past the "success" lines. The question is more about the degrees of success, which is somewhat hard to gauge beyond a murky guess without info that isn't really out there in the public domain.

As far as another issue brought up in the last couple posts, it doesn't really seem like Konami has the number of 2D artists needed to do HD sprites. They'd have to outsource or Vanillaware or something. Supposedly there's a big shortage of well trained 2D sprite artists as it is and very few who have ventured into HD spriting. It probably wouldn't be that reasonable for them profit-wise to go for HD sprites when it's difficult for them to make a new SD sprite for each enemy for every new game (although I don't really have as much of a problem with sprite reuse as other people seem to since there's only so many ways to design a skeleton, minotaur or a medusa head; I have more of a problem with copy-paste level design). They'd need to actually have a decent amount of spriters before they could even think of making a new HD sprite for each enemy in a new game and acquiring that many might not be within the budget possibilities on the 2D CVs.

Offline Neobelmont

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #263 on: January 08, 2012, 03:33:49 AM »
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Something just hit me in the head right now. Now why is it that CV has never sold really well LoS 1million now let's see a high quality (2d/3d) game right on a console no less. Well here is the perfect answer. Target audience Cv is not for eveyone do not know why but it's just not so connect with the ones that could connect like for example there is a new cv coming out right? well let's see it has that demonic flair right well bam put it on ktla5 on supernatural and sppeaking of supernatural what about adult swim great place for some new fans or what about that show true blood hell why does not konami connect the dots it  just seems so simple do major marketing during october, sales would boost like crazy like in the pool business it is at it's peak during the summer cv october supernatural/horror shows hell put a crap load of commercials onto channels like sci-fi and chiller and bam something will happen just something.

Now that alone would boost sales and fans like ourselfs would get it so bam! Now there is only one problem when it comes to 2d game on a disc on a current gen system the fact that some people think 2d is dead  ( MARIO AND SONIC WILL ALLWAYS SELL. A PLATNIUM TURD WITH THEIR NAMES ON IT WILL SELL DON'T KNOW WHY BUT THEY JUST DO). Now that is out of my system take a look at current 2d disc games otomedius did not sell all well,record of argest(cannot remeber how to spell it) not great either, and 3d dot game heros that looked like time and effort was put into it and even that did not sell a crap load heck the game even made a point that 2d is sort of looked down upon.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 04:01:09 AM by Neobelmont »
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Come on now this was going to happen eventually  :P

Offline C Belmont

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #264 on: January 08, 2012, 04:23:49 AM »
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As far as another issue brought up in the last couple posts, it doesn't really seem like Konami has the number of 2D artists needed to do HD sprites. They'd have to outsource or Vanillaware or something. Supposedly there's a big shortage of well trained 2D sprite artists as it is and very few who have ventured into HD spriting. It probably wouldn't be that reasonable for them profit-wise to go for HD sprites when it's difficult for them to make a new SD sprite for each enemy for every new game (although I don't really have as much of a problem with sprite reuse as other people seem to since there's only so many ways to design a skeleton, minotaur or a medusa head; I have more of a problem with copy-paste level design). They'd need to actually have a decent amount of spriters before they could even think of making a new HD sprite for each enemy in a new game and acquiring that many might not be within the budget possibilities on the 2D CVs

Konami could always outsource the work to a professional animation studio themselves, I believe that is what was done with Warioland: The Shake dimension they went to Production I.G for their character animation and another company that specialised in backgrounds for the rest of their art. But trying to create HD pixel art (like what SNK is doing with KOF) would be just insane and a little pointless really when it can be done so well without spending months pushing individual pixels around.

A Castlevania game with animation done by Madhouse (the studio responsible for Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust) would probably look pretty sweet.

Offline Successor The Cruel

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #265 on: January 08, 2012, 05:49:25 AM »
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It's funny how absurd a full 2-D game for sale on a home console sounds to some people now. If a very stunning 2-D game with excellent gameplay was made, which had all the other bases down, such as music, atmosphere, and so forth, that was also well advertised, I bet it would be a hit. Of course, that probably sounds silly to many people, because, "No one will buy a 2-D console game these days."

The people who are real visionaries are the ones who do things no one else is doing, and make them work. Way back in the day, many of the classical composers broke "the rules" of music at the time and did their own thing. Nowadays, they're revered as legends of the highest order, and the new rules have been written around them. They did stuff no one thought or dared to do at the time, and they did it well.

It would be great if Konami made a 2-D Castlevania on a home console, but cast aside that "hardcore retro video game player" stuff that's often associated with 2-D games now, and made it approachable for everyone without compromising it to be stupid or simple. This is something that many developers who make 2-D games do not do.

When people make 2-D games while pretending that it's freaking 1991 and making it seem as though you retrieved the game from a time capsule, it will, of course, only appeal to people who like retro games. 2-D needs to become separate from the retro deal that's it's associated with and become approachable to everyone to become recognized as a respectable medium in which to make serious games again. It can do that, but people within the industry need to seriously back it and stop developing 2-D games that try so hard to appeal to people's nostalgia. They need to treat it not as though it's an old way to make games, but just that it's another way to make games that is in no way inferior to 3-D.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 05:52:30 AM by Successor The Red »

Offline Sumac

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #266 on: January 08, 2012, 08:21:21 AM »
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Why is it such a stretch for you to believe that some of your fellow fans may not share your opinions that old-school Castlevanias should be replaced by Lords of Shadow?  Naturally, you would hawk LoS’ sales in response, so let me take my point a step further and point out that the sales only represent the mass market, not necessarily the loyalty of the Castlevania fanbase.  David Cox himself had repeatedly said that mass market appeal was the LoS’ primary objective all along...
No need to change topic.
I know that my sentiment is not shared by everyone. However, what you call "a honest feedback" as of now looks like your own opinion about series. And most likely not every single "old school fan" share your own thoughts.
As for mass market appeal - it is excatly why big corporation create games. And, yes, sells are natural showcase of the game quality and appeal. Previous CV games wasn't thta succesful, so its natural that they will be replaced by something more interesting to the people.

The same actually happened in the CV early history. CV2 tried to go into different direction rather than the first part. It wasn't that succesful and CV3 returned to CV1 formula with few twists, practically removing almost every innovation CV2 brought. Much to my disappointment, I must add.

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But you need to understand that while businesses do care about their sales, their main concern is the bottom line --it’s all about PROFIT.
And it's wrong in the big businees because?
I understand that you're hurt, by Konami abandoment of the old formula(s) and 2D direction. However you need to approach this maturely and understand that in the world of big money (and video game industry is about big money, like it or not), PROFIT means much more than hurt feeling of old school fans. And no matter how you try to hide that fact, LOS sold more and this is deciding factor in the Konami politics. As it always had been.

Besides, technical advancement creates neccesity for the games (and developers) to adopt to the new rules and powers. It's only natural that games will change, sometimes radically. I bet some of the fans of TEXT RPG were enraged, when they favorite interactive books were replaced with kiddish primitive graphics. And can you imagine majority of the people playing those games today? I don't think so. The same thing happening with 2D games. There are niche market, living on the life support provided by enthusiasts, DLC and portable consoles. And even portable console nowadays grow powerful enough that many of the games step into 3D. It's only question of time, when 2D will completely disappear as a commercialy relevant product. It's evolution, and as much you can disagree with it, hate it, it couldn't be stopped. Old things will be replaced or lose they value. Its inevitable and, when we talk about big money title, it's very unlikely that big corp. decide to spent they time and efforts on something oldfashioned, that will take time and resources, but will not guarantee any positive outcome.

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What we’re requesting is a “serious investment” which is wide open to *professional* interpretation.
Essentially requesting the same "big budget" title, but with roundabout words.

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And just for the sake of argument, let’s suppose the market is locked at 300,000 hardcore fans.  Konami should respond by asking “how much money are these fans willing to pay for a “serious investment?”  And the more I think about it, the more I’m realizing that’s a question that will eventually need to be answered....
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I've suspected both Rebirth and HD may be trial balloons to help Konami decide what to do with the Akumajo series.  They may be far more profitable than any of us realize...
In another words you think that Konami obligated to create game for the old fans, just to know how well it would sell?
I think they already did it with Harmony of Despair. The fact that they had nothing to present on the CV 25th birthday and lack of any information about future 2D titles is kind of telling in that situation.

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You know what, I think we can agree on this.  We really deserve some blame for sitting on our asses for too long.  Now the stakes are higher and the challenges are severe --not to mention there’s no sympathetic insider to lend a hand...
Indeed. Fans should have started some movement at the times, when CV went into the odd directions, starting with DOS. The time was lost, partially because it were "metroidvania" games and some people still were "charmed" by SOTN to eat anything that resembled that game. As of now, I think its too late too turn this locomotive to the other railroad track.

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But if we’re not specific about demanding a certain level of quality, there’s a danger that Konami would think we can be pacified by inferior or mediocre products.
Once again: Quality is not limited to your desires and vision.

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Just curious --how you would interpret this conversation?
That Castlevania: Lords of Shadow is a different kind of Castlevania. That simple. If Cox called it just "Lords of Shadow" we had something to talk about. As he put it - LOS is still Castlevania, no matter how some people want to think that its not.

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Am I biased in the sense that LoS is not a legitimate Akumajo Dracula reboot?  ABSOLUTELY!
I much prefer to see LOS as something that separate from old CV canon.
Partially because I HATE reboots of the existing storylines or "retelling" of the same events with new twists, that set in the old universe (MK9).

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Quality problems don’t necessarily mean you need to reinvent the wheel.  There is such a thing as going too far, and that’s where the discord comes from.
While I agree with this, I also think that "metroidvania" formula was milked for all its worth and it was time to change "foundation" onto something else. Even good qality "metroidvania" would be a "metroidvania" - copy of the SOTN. That's not what I personally want to see from the series. At least not now.

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Hard copy vs digistrib really shouldn't matter,
Actually it should. Digi.restribution only is a sigh that the project is pretty small scaled.

Offline Malus793

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #267 on: January 08, 2012, 09:59:19 AM »
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That Castlevania: Lords of Shadow is a different kind of Castlevania. That simple. If Cox called it just "Lords of Shadow" we had something to talk about. As he put it - LOS is still Castlevania, no matter how some people want to think that its not.

Hands down, that's the most liberal interpretation of a statement I've ever read in my whole entire life--and one with which I would totally disagree, if only because I'm taking what Cox said at face value and am reading absolutely nothing into his words as far as what he "really meant" or what I would like him to mean.

Indeed, Cox's words imply that he believes "Castlevania" to be a separate series from "Akumajo Dracula", which is a relatively novel idea considering the only differences between the two in the past have been title (likely due to 1980s censorship differences between regions) and maybe the occasional nude or overly demonic-looking sprite.  Sure, one could argue that even IGA attempted to differentiate between "Castlevania" and "Akumajo Dracula" with Lament of Innocence, Harmony of Dissonance, and Aria of Sorrow--but later entries into the Akumajo Dracula series by IGA suggest that, again, the difference was ultimately to be superficial at best (related only to title and nothing more). 

No, Cox has struck new and, as far as I'm concerned, unnecessary (and unnecessarily vague) territory with how he views Castlevania vs. Akumajo Dracula, and really shows that he has sort of a fratboyish understanding of what made the two different in the first place (i.e. nearly nothing).

But, if Cox's view is to be taken seriously (seriously enough to be shared by, say, the higher-ups at Konami), then that just goes to prove that LoS is not an entry into Akumajo Dracula, and is therefore part of a different series--and thus there's little reason to NOT continue Akumajo Dracula as a series simply because LoS (which by Cox's own admission is not connected) exists.  Hence, IMO, Operation: Akumajo's existence is completely validated by Cox's own words.
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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #268 on: January 08, 2012, 10:45:01 AM »
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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #269 on: January 08, 2012, 12:41:58 PM »
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It's funny how absurd a full 2-D game for sale on a home console sounds to some people now. If a very stunning 2-D game with excellent gameplay was made, which had all the other bases down, such as music, atmosphere, and so forth, that was also well advertised, I bet it would be a hit. Of course, that probably sounds silly to many people, because, "No one will buy a 2-D console game these days."

The people who are real visionaries are the ones who do things no one else is doing, and make them work. Way back in the day, many of the classical composers broke "the rules" of music at the time and did their own thing. Nowadays, they're revered as legends of the highest order, and the new rules have been written around them. They did stuff no one thought or dared to do at the time, and they did it well.

It would be great if Konami made a 2-D Castlevania on a home console, but cast aside that "hardcore retro video game player" stuff that's often associated with 2-D games now, and made it approachable for everyone without compromising it to be stupid or simple. This is something that many developers who make 2-D games do not do.

When people make 2-D games while pretending that it's freaking 1991 and making it seem as though you retrieved the game from a time capsule, it will, of course, only appeal to people who like retro games. 2-D needs to become separate from the retro deal that's it's associated with and become approachable to everyone to become recognized as a respectable medium in which to make serious games again. It can do that, but people within the industry need to seriously back it and stop developing 2-D games that try so hard to appeal to people's nostalgia. They need to treat it not as though it's an old way to make games, but just that it's another way to make games that is in no way inferior to 3-D.

Bravo.  Well said.   :D

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