Topic: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo

[Flame]

Actually, another issue which I forgot about before, is that 9 relies on a particular cheap gimmick to artificially harden the level. they blindside the player with that offscreen claw grabber which drags you into spikes. That's pretty unforgivable.

Also, yes, Protoman has the charge and slide, but the game punishes you for it, by making you take double damage and knockback from it. Powered up at least had it as an unlockable. it should be something that can be purchased at the shop, perhaps upon beating the game.

IMO, Mega Man 2 earns every bit of the accolades it receives.

That doesnt mean it's the best mega man ever, which everyone treats it as. It's a good game, nothing more. a good sequel, with good music, but theres no need to constantly fawn over it when there are other classic games in the series that are of the same if not better quality, and bring much more to the table.

Im also sick of hearing the Wily fortress theme stage 1. Absolutely sick.

Change doesn't always equal contribution, and certainly not every change is good.

its not exactly good when it's a regression instead of a progression.

Protoman has those...and, honestly, I think 9 plays just fine without them.

both games constantly throw at you areas and enemies that seem to mock the fact you cant slide. particularly shield enemies, which were introduced as a mechanic to USE the slide against.

I think 9 is successful at being its own entity.

10 succeeds FAR better at that.

Likewise, I reassert that this is the first time I've read a complaint about the lack of a slide or charge--and, indeed, 10 plays just fine without them, IMO, and if you don't think so, you always have the option of playing the game as Protoman.

the lack of slide or charge was always one complaint people had. Im more upset about it's absence in 10. in 9 its understandable that after having disarmed to an extent, Rock had no time to fully upgrade back, but for 10 it's just an inexcusable gimmick to make the game harder.

Also, I dont want to have to be punished for use of the Charge and slide.

Regardless of the broken Jewel Satellite,

jewel satellite is the sole item that breaks the shop. you can purchase the max number of E tanks after just leaving the game running in plug man's stage with the satellite on.

10 doesnt have such a broken way to farm.

[Sumac]

Malus793, pretty much agree with many things you said, but this:

The fact of the matter is that some conversions have worked and some have not.  Instead of pointing the finger at the fanbase and blaming them for being resistant to change, instead consider that they may just be resistant to crap.  Not everything is golden simply because it's new or "modern", just as everything old isn't automatically awesome simply by virtue of being old.

Some fanbases really stuck up. It happens when developers reuse the same formula (or pieces of said formula with little to no changes) for too long. As a consequence some long time fans began to think that they some sort of "elite" that have the right to dictate other fans how they should think of the series (some individuals even believe that they know better than the developers themselves how the game should be). Usually those "elite" guys is the major source of troubles in the fanbase - not only they try to humilate people who disagree with them, but also forcibly try to force they point view on others. Hence certain closemindedness of the vocal fanbase. There are plenty of fans outthere, who just love games and not spent their time on forums trying to tell the others "how their series should be".

On unrelated note: MegaMan 3 is much better than 2. And I'd go so far to say that its the best MM game on the NES.

[GummiCandyful]

Not only that, but the music is much more appealing. I honestly don't see what's so great about MM2's OST, because quite frankly, 3 had better stage music, among other things.

[crisis]

this isn't a megaman thread

[JR]

Malus793, pretty much agree with many things you said, but this:Some fanbases really stuck up. It happens when developers reuse the same formula (or pieces of said formula with little to no changes) for too long. As a consequence some long time fans began to think that they some sort of "elite" that have the right to dictate other fans how they should think of the series (some individuals even believe that they know better than the developers themselves how the game should be). Usually those "elite" guys is the major source of troubles in the fanbase - not only they try to humilate people who disagree with them, but also forcibly try to force they point view on others. Hence certain closemindedness of the vocal fanbase. There are plenty of fans outthere, who just love games and not spent their time on forums trying to tell the others "how their series should be".

Do you ever resist an opportunity to badmouth a fanbase?? I think what you said has some truth to it in some circumstances, but come on.

[Flame]

this isn't a megaman thread

DOHOHOHO...

IT IS NOW!

[Malus793]

Actually, another issue which I forgot about before, is that 9 relies on a particular cheap gimmick to artificially harden the level. they blindside the player with that offscreen claw grabber which drags you into spikes. That's pretty unforgivable.

I disagree.

1. "Relies"?  He's in two levels that I can recall--Galaxy Man's and a Wily level.  That doesn't make 9 seem overly reliant on him to me.
2. A basic enemy whose pattern can easily be recognized and anticipated is hardly what I'd call a "cheap gimmick to artificially harden the level".
3. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that if the enemy appears on the screen once and there are a ton of spikes around, he'll probably be on the screen again to utilize those same spikes.

Can he be frustrating?  Maybe if you run-and-gun like you're playing Contra and keep getting caught by him, yes.  But if you keep your wits about you, chances are you'll avoid him most of the time.

Also, yes, Protoman has the charge and slide, but the game punishes you for it, by making you take double damage and knockback from it. Powered up at least had it as an unlockable. it should be something that can be purchased at the shop, perhaps upon beating the game.

Man, you really love your slide and charge shot.

IMO, the Mega Man portion of the game just doesn't need them.  The game isn't impossible to complete without them. 
 

That doesnt mean it's the best mega man ever, which everyone treats it as. It's a good game, nothing more. a good sequel, with good music, but theres no need to constantly fawn over it when there are other classic games in the series that are of the same if not better quality, and bring much more to the table.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

Like I said, MM3 is underrated.  You'll get no argument about that from me.  I'd even go so far as to say 4 and 5 are likewise underrated.  But 2 just had that wow factor--it's difficulty level is high without being sadistic or unfair (like the original), the music was memorable, and it just had the "it" that pushes games into the realm of legendary.  Plus, I have to give it props for making Mega Man as celebrated as it is (and for saving the series from oblivion after Mega Man 1's quiet release).  The game earned its accolades, IMO.

Im also sick of hearing the Wily fortress theme stage 1. Absolutely sick.

...Kind of a random tangent, I have to admit.  That's more the fault of remixers and cover-ers than the game itself, I'd think.

its not exactly good when it's a regression instead of a progression.

Moves that make the game easier also make it more enjoyable for you.  I understand that.  I just don't agree.  *shrugs*

both games constantly throw at you areas and enemies that seem to mock the fact you cant slide. particularly shield enemies, which were introduced as a mechanic to USE the slide against.

That's where timing and well-placed shots come in.  Again, the game isn't impossible or even unfair without charge shot or slide.

Out of curiosity, did you complete 9 and 10?

10 succeeds FAR better at that.

Realistically, I think they both succeed just as well at that.

the lack of slide or charge was always one complaint people had.

If it was, I don't recall it ever being considered a deal-breaker or even anything more than a minor annoyance.  But I honestly don't recall anyone complaining about it.  To the contrary, I do recall people stating that the games prove just how much people over-relied on slide and charge shot to plow through.  *shrugs* Maybe we just hung out on different Mega Man message boards.

Im more upset about it's absence in 10. in 9 its understandable that after having disarmed to an extent, Rock had no time to fully upgrade back, but for 10 it's just an inexcusable gimmick to make the game harder.

Even without them, I wouldn't agree that the game is especially difficult.  In fact, 10 is quite a bit less difficult than 9, IMO.  And actually quite a bit less difficult than 3, I'd say.

Also, I dont want to have to be punished for use of the Charge and slide.

As you've said.  I just don't agree that it's a big deal, or that it should be a deal-breaker.  *shrugs*

jewel satellite is the sole item that breaks the shop. you can purchase the max number of E tanks after just leaving the game running in plug man's stage with the satellite on.

Not that it helps much, since 9's Wily levels consistently kick my ass, lol.  I make use of each and every single one of those E-Tanks.

10 doesnt have such a broken way to farm.

10 really doesn't need it, either, as it's a lot easier, IMO.  But I won't disagree that Jewel Satellite is broken.  I still don't think that pushes MM9 out of "masterpiece" status.

Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Malus793, pretty much agree with many things you said, but this:Some fanbases really stuck up.

Oh, I agree.  The Sonic fandom seems to be a perfect example of this.

It happens when developers reuse the same formula (or pieces of said formula with little to no changes) for too long. As a consequence some long time fans began to think that they some sort of "elite" that have the right to dictate other fans how they should think of the series (some individuals even believe that they know better than the developers themselves how the game should be).

That might be one reason, sure.  I think another reason is something as simple as personal preference.  That's something shared by both sides of the argument...I think the series should be approached one way, you think it should be approached another, we both have the advantage of sitting behind the mask that is the internet, and conflict inevitably erupts.  *shrugs*  Human nature.

As for fans knowing better than developers, I think in some cases it's a valid belief.  There's a fine interplay between developer and audience that I sometimes think both sides forget about.  The relationship can be equated to a delicate machine, one requiring both sides to put in equal energy and dedication.  When one side fails to do so, it throws the machine (the relationship and, ultimately, the fandom) into disorder.  While I agree that fans should never forget where their next game fix will come from, I think it's equally reasonable to expect that developers should never forget who purchases their products in the first place.

Since this ultimately turns back towards Lords of Shadow vs. Akumajo Dracula, allow me to make my position on certain issues perfectly clear:

1. I like Lords of Shadow.  It was genuinely a fun game to play, and one in the same vein as Dante's Inferno and the God of War games (which I also enjoyed).
2. I do not think that Lords of Shadow should carry the name "Castlevania".
3. I do not think that there should be a difference between "Castlevania" and "Akumajo Dracula" aside from region/translation. 
4. I think that Castlevania/Akumajo Dracula was suffering from stagnation at the end of IGA's tenure.
5. I do not agree that a hard reboot was needed to revitalize Castlevania.  Indeed, a soft reboot (i.e. one that kept certain games--like the NES trilogy) could have done the trick.
6. I think Castlevania/Akumajo Dracula suffers from identity crisis.  It simply lacks identity and doesn't seem sure of what it should be anymore.
7. I think IGA phoned it in a lot because he was too much of a fan.
8. I think David Cox is phoning it in because he's not enough of a fan.
9. I think that Operation: Akumajo is doing something that's necessary in much the same way that the Occupy protesters are.
10. Like the Occupy protesters, I think that Operation: Akumajo is going about it the wrong way and needs to focus a bit more on specific goals.
11. I do believe it's possible to please longtime fans while appealing to a new audience.

I love Castlevania/Akumajo Dracula.  I love the Castlevania/Akumajo Dracula mythos.  I'd love it if a developer would finally take the mythos/series seriously without stripping away its identity.

Usually those "elite" guys is the major source of troubles in the fanbase - not only they try to humilate people who disagree with them, but also forcibly try to force they point view on others. Hence certain closemindedness of the vocal fanbase. There are plenty of fans outthere, who just love games and not spent their time on forums trying to tell the others "how their series should be".

I agree with this.  I think they're the majority, actually.  Sometimes they're misread by developers as "casual" gamers.  Sometimes they're misread by developers as "hardcore" gamers.  In truth, they're at times both and neither.

[A-Yty]

What is the "problem" actually? This "elite" fanbase is completely entitled to its preferences like anyone else. If Konami fails to make CV a best-seller - and especially if they fail at it because of these elite individuals - that's their own silly blunder. It's especially hilarious since some (*cough*sumac*cough*) often preach how meaningless the old fans' opinions are, yet pretty much all they do is whine about how these old, meaningless, picky elites don't like LoS.

Konami is the one failing. If they put some real good effort into this, they would either succeed in pleasing their original fanbase or making CV a hot seller for those that aren't fans. You can bitch and moan all you want about the haters and the old fans and the elites and the Illuminati, but it's Konami that has made the decisions that have gotten Castlevania into where it is now.

Yeah, there are some fans who can be dicks and elitists (this goes for lots and lots of things - be it a movie series, games or whatever), but what else does that mean besides the occasional Internet forum flaming? How much of a problem are they?

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Konami is the one failing. If they put some real good effort into this, they would either succeed in pleasing their original fanbase or making CV a hot seller for those that aren't fans.

Not often you hear truer words.

If Konami bucked up, put some cold hard cash on the tables of both their production staff and marketing staff and said "This needs to be the biggest thing since the Russian Revolution", I'm pretty sure it would happen.

As it stands, Konami relies too much on word of mouth to reach new fans, and disregarding actual quality for a moment, Harmony of Despair and Lords of Shadow haven't done a great job of endearing themselves to the old fans, whilst simultaneously failing to reach new fans, because Konami isn't generating interest in Castlevania; they're too busy hyping MGS Rising: Revengeance and the Silent Hill HD Collection.

A good marketer can and will sell ice to an Eskimo, because money is money, and selling someone something they don't need is what marketing is all about in the end.

Konami's Castlevania marketers couldn't sell water to a dying man in the desert, because the man in the desert will SURELY stumble across the water they're peddling EVENTUALLY, right? Even if it's more than a bit muddy?

I mean, you're thirsty! Give us your coin and take a damn drink from what we're selling-- what do you mean it's dirty? IT'S WATER YOU IDIOT. DRINK UP, OR YOU GET NOTHING AT ALL.

That's how the Castlevania marketers are behaving.

I don't care what your opinions of the games are at the moment.

In the end, they want us to accept whatever they offer that we stumble across by almost random chance. They want us to buy their water, but they don't post signs to the marketplace, and when we actually come across it blindly and dying of thirst, we find the water is dirty, unhealthy and not up to the standards it should be meeting.

So we look somewhere else in the market, and find more exciting options than dirty water.

"Say, the bar over at Square-Enix is offering some good looking cocktails. It may burn going down, but that's just proof you're alive! Ooh, but Sucker Punch and Rockstar have Brandy that's ON FIRE! Say, Valve's got great drinks of every variety ON TAP!"

And we move away from the crooked water salesmen, and then they blame us for having bad taste.

No, Konami, the fact is, you can't sell a product, especially one that doesn't meet our standards.

That's just the way it is.

[Sumac]

I think the series should be approached one way, you think it should be approached another, we both have the advantage of sitting behind the mask that is the internet, and conflict inevitably erupts.  *shrugs*  Human nature.

I agree with that. But I believe such preferences could be discussed without dissing people for having other opinions ("People who like game X are not true fans", "People who like Z are modern gamers who don't know better", "People who like Y are immature and stupid", e.t.c.). Such concept that people who disagree with your opinion are somehow worse than you is quite stupid. It's like saying "people who like disco are more stupid than people who like rock" - why? It doesn't make sense. It's just preference.

Another side effect, some people in the fandom began to think that they are somehow higher in position than other people in the fanbase, because they've been with the series longer or collect more series-related merchandise. I've seen those people and they really have a negative effect on everyone, since more often then not, they use they "old-timer" position to dictate what people should like or what not. It discourage any open-minded approach to the subject, since everyone who dare to state some other opinion will be ridiculed and taunted, inevitably creating a horrible pattern where certain things would be hated, because some of the "elite" guys hate them.

I've seen such things in the MGS fandom for example. Many people have became fans of the series after original MGS on PSX. Then Konami made a remake of this game on GameCube, using new engine and new director. While this game have some short comings it was universally hated by many longtime fans as "sacrilige against holy game that is original MGS". They bashed absolutely everything: graphics, gameplay, AI, voice acting, you named it. More often then not they complaints steemed from simple fanboism, since MGS was the first game that they played in the series and an attempt to remade it "hurt they feelings". Worse yet some new fans, that come on board, become thrashing the game, even if they never played it, simply because they older comrades "new better" and because they wanted to be "cool" (be a part of the crowd - barking with everyone). That simple example, when "elite" people harm fanbase. I've seen another, on one Final Fantasy forum - everyone who liked anything about FF13 were immdiately attacked, sometimes with insults. Even worse those attackers included one of the moderators of the forum, who by default should be more or less over the confilct, not creating it. The common theme was like "those people never played NES and SNES and don't know better". As it was their fault... That's kind of a textbook example of why "elite" should be somehow controled or at least not completely trusted, when it come to opinions.

As for fans knowing better than developers, I think in some cases it's a valid belief.

I disagree with that. Developers in most cases are people, who payed to make games and who supposedly know how to do it. Of course some developers fail to create a good product, but afterall its not a reason to trust "random oldscholl joe" on the forum to decide what should be in game ot what not. I already talked about certain stuck upness of the old communities and if some of those "old-schoolers" will be in deciding position the series, I believe, it will be destroyed by barrage of clones, created in vein of the "old good gmaes" (by the standard of 1995). Or inner fighting of "elite" fans who will decide who is more TruE fan than the other.

Besides everyone could be "cool guy who know how everything should be" on the internet. It is very different things - have general vision and ideas and practical know-how of inner-workings of the game to make them come true. That's why I believe, if some fans wnat to decide what games they want play, instead of hating developers, they should go and make said games themselves. There are many free engines nowadays, so it shouldn't be the problem. But in the end its much easier to give "very important instructions to the developers", than go and do something by themselves. It seems its actually the reason why so many fan developed projects come to stop. Because saying is a one thing, doing it - is completely another.

The relationship can be equated to a delicate machine, one requiring both sides to put in equal energy and dedication.

What kind of energy should come from fans, I don't understand?
They are consumers buying games. Its developers who doing all the "dirty" job. I don't think that going to the shop requre that much energy. As well as loving or hating game on forums.
And not fans make money for the companies. At least not nowadays. Its general gamers who make millions. Fans rather a small drop in that sea.

What is the "problem" actually? This "elite" fanbase is completely entitled to its preferences

Of course they are. However I am against forcing their opinion on new people or the ones who have different opinions. Discussion is a one thing, bullying is the other.

You can bitch and moan all you want about the haters and the old fans and the elites and the Illuminati, but it's Konami that has made the decisions that have gotten Castlevania into where it is now.

And even Konami sometimes look at what fanbase want. The whole "metroidvania" is almost example of it.
Do you know why Castlevania became what it is now? Because fans wanted it.
They wanted more SOTN-like games? They've got'em.
They wanted more protagonists in vein of Alucard. They've got'em.
Partial reason for the current 2D CV downfall is that fans were ready to eat anything that even remotely resembled Symphony of the Night. Konami knew this and happily make IGA make more and more SOTN-clones. And fanbase was satissfied with it actually, even when products were of a not so good quality (POR). But no one bitched and moaned, because it was in vein-of-glorious-SOTN.

When ultimately 2D CV somewhat stopped attract people who were not SOTN fans, Konami understood that they were doing something wrong. And only when they took drastical steps to revitalize the franchise, part of the fanbase was enraged. But possibly the very same fans should have made some movements even before this situation comes to a logical end with a new approach to the universe? Of course its easy now to compare "there is LOS, there is other CV games - choose what you like". But back then? It was easier to sit on your butt and say: "WOW, another SOTN-clone!! How cool is that? Well, it doesn't have half of the SOTN-atmosphere and plot is stupid, but still this game is quite close to a SOTN and I will have my faith in Konami that they will be able to make the next clone better!!"
It was an optimism of the shipwreck victim swimming in a sinking bathtub: "Everything will be OK, they just need sometime".

No, Konami, the fact is, you can't sell a product, especially one that doesn't meet our standards.

And then...LOS was succesful at the market. And big company really shouldn't care that much about opinion of some of the old fans, since, I repeat, they are not the ones who make millions. So, Konami do it right and fans bitch and moan because developers didn't consult with them how the new game should be. Reminds of situations, when the child began crying, because his ice cream had fallen on the ground. Sorry, its gravitation baby and it will not think of how unfair it is to you. =)

[Flame]

To its defense, Aria was a very good Symphony clone. (probably the bst symphony clone)

[Lumi Kløvstad]

It goes beyond being the best Symphony clones and becomes one of the best Castlevania's, period.

[crisis]

I wish it would've been released on consoles, in fact if they were to remake this game in HD, it would be an instant hit all over again! prunyuu~~

[Flame]

For sure. All that ever hold the game back was the GBA limitations. Specifically in music. The Graphics were very GBA, but not bad at all.