Topic: Do the Metroidvania's Get Any Better?

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Castlevania's never really been great at explaining details, but Symphony really makes a show of how many plot holes it has.

At least that part improved in future titles. Especially Aria.

[Sumac]

I think they wanted the "The castle is a creature of chaos" line to be the answer to that. Though that only makes if the Inverted Castle is merely the top half and not a whole separate castle.

I
It is vague explanation at best.

The manual just says that he's "now awake and aware of the evil once again at work in his homeland".

Thogh this is probably even more vague.

[TheouAegis]

Maybe since Shaft is an undead bastard, if he gathered up all of Dracula's parts and used them, he'd be consumed by Drac's power and he didn't want that. And the sum of Dracula's parts doesn't mean Dracula will be resurrected, it means there needs to be a sacrifice. Perhaps that was what Richter was for - Shaft could use Richter as the offering. The question of plot hole then falls retroactively on Simon's Quest, which doesn't explain why Simon was able to revive Dracula without any offering. Simon's Quest started the "gather Dracula's parts" method, but the Classicvanias otherwise never specified how Dracula kept coming around. Then Rondo showed a sacrifice had to be offered. Since SOTN is Rondo's sequel, there must be a sacrifice there too -- which for whatever reason was the undying dark priest.
...
Ok, I'v egot nothing. I was trying.

[VladCT]

Maybe since Shaft is an undead bastard, if he gathered up all of Dracula's parts and used them, he'd be consumed by Drac's power and he didn't want that. And the sum of Dracula's parts doesn't mean Dracula will be resurrected, it means there needs to be a sacrifice. Perhaps that was what Richter was for - Shaft could use Richter as the offering. The question of plot hole then falls retroactively on Simon's Quest, which doesn't explain why Simon was able to revive Dracula without any offering. Simon's Quest started the "gather Dracula's parts" method, but the Classicvanias otherwise never specified how Dracula kept coming around. Then Rondo showed a sacrifice had to be offered. Since SOTN is Rondo's sequel, there must be a sacrifice there too -- which for whatever reason was the undying dark priest.
...
Ok, I'v egot nothing. I was trying.

Maybe the sacrifice was only needed to restore Dracula's full power. As for Shaft being the sacrifice for some reason, Shaft's spirit was the only thing closest to a sacrifice that was available, and I think Shaft was willing to offer his soul anyway if need be, since his goal was to resurrect Dracula by any means necessary IIRC. Plus, the soul that gets consumed can free itself either when Dracula doesn't need it anymore and chooses to or if he gets killed again, or at least that's what PoR and Death's subsequent chronological appearances have led me to believe.

[cmdood]

Perhaps it varies from person to person, but for me, i liked all the metroidvanias. As far as "Do they get better?" eh, define better...
I really enjoyed Cotm, then i personally feel like it downgraded with Harmony of dissonance. Aria of sorrow was interesting with the soul system, but weak gameplay and story wise. Dawn of sorrow was enjoyable for me, since it added in Julius, Alucard, and Yoko, but was very weak story wise and (to quote one user) too much like a saturday morning anime. I liked Portrait of Ruin but yes it was a tad too easy for a castlevania game to be honest. I'm playing Order of Ecclesia and finding it very difficult! Story isn't bad either. I suppose my opinion isn't 100% reliable since i'm not very good at reviewing games, and haven't played EVERY castlevania/metroidvania.

[thernz]

So pretty much I should expect a polished version of Simon's Quest for the first part of the game?

Ehhh, Order of Ecclesia's progression isn't at all like Simon's Quest. Ecclesia has a world map from which you explore areas in a very linear matter: you beat an area, and another area unlocks on the map. There's no inter-connectivity between them. Simon's Quest is more about an integrated, cohesive world where you bump your head into everything, using items to get to new places. While that has some relevance in Ecclesia, Ecclesia pretty much has the places you need to go and use new abilities right on the path, and this only occurs in the later part of the game. But even then, Ecclesia's castle has a lot less exploration in it than the other Castlevanias. The only thematic similarity is that both take place in the countryside and you can go back to places.

But yeah, you should give Order a chance if you haven't. It's pretty much the one with the best combat and least exploration.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

Ehhh, Order of Ecclesia's progression isn't at all like Simon's Quest.

Your right...

I guess I should have clarified that I meant more in "style" rather than "progression".

It has many similarities with Simon's quest such as both having a Village hub world and the ability to explore the countryside.

[TheouAegis]

And you jump on top of Eagles' backs to get one of the glyphs.

Except for Blackmore or whatever, the enemies are more of a threat than the bosses in Ecclesia, but you don't find that out until after you figure out how to beat the bosses, because the bosses will probably rape your ass the first few times. It had some pretty creative boss battles, I'll admit. Case in point: Wall Master. He's the easiest boss in the game but I had to look online to figure out how to kill him cuz the bastard just would not die.

And "Get a photograph of a Cave Troll". I hated that quest. But it wasn't nearly as bad as the "Get a photograph of the Jersey Devil". Took me so many tries cuz the damn things wouldn't stay still.

But I still smile every time I think about The Undertaker being in Ecclesia, although they called him The Gravedigger. He even uses the Chokeslam on Shanoa.

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

But once you get to the Castle its strictly Metroidvania all the way.

But the castle in OoE is actually still rather linear beyond being able to go to either

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Eligor or Death after Blackmore,

so I'm not sure I'd consider it strictly MV. There are some side passages and round about ways of course, but they're rather short and either quickly turn into a dead end or return to the main path rather than opening up into a more open ended affair (like what some of the potrait worlds were like in PoR). Part of it may just be because the castle isn't as large as incarnations from between SotN and DoS, but I still got a pretty big vibe of stage-based progression even in the castle, even though you back tracked a few times.

I thought what the game wanted you to think happened to Richter was infinitely more interesting before Shaft shafted his way back into the plot.

This is basically exactly what I thought of SotN's plot.

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Richter trying to make his battles against Dracula last for eternity is naturally a much more interesting plot than just Shaft coming back and corrupting him.

Still, I can see why they felt that wouldn't be an acceptable path to go for the "true" plot. I just like that they injected it and gave us a taste of something like that despite going a more traditional route in the end.

Anyway, how Shaft got back into action leaves a lot of room for fan speculation but I don't necessarily think it was required for them to explain it--some games do leave stuff like this unexplained to add stuff for fans to decide on or make up themselves. Perhaps at the end of Rondo, in his fight with Shaft's ghost, Shaft had some kind of final trick up his sleeve where he subtly attached his ghost to Richter with the last of his energy and appeared to die, allowing him to gradually regain strength and corrupt Richter over time. That's about what I get out of it if I just look at what happened and need to think of a way for it to make sense.

I'd like to think just gathering Drac's remains together would summon Castlevania, but you're right. That's a guess/theory.

That is likely actually true given another one of the Metroidvania's plots, but it'd probably be spoilers to say any more. How you thought of that without playing that particular MV is actually rather perplexing to me.

[Arma]

Maybe since Shaft is an undead bastard, if he gathered up all of Dracula's parts and used them, he'd be consumed by Drac's power and he didn't want that. And the sum of Dracula's parts doesn't mean Dracula will be resurrected, it means there needs to be a sacrifice. Perhaps that was what Richter was for - Shaft could use Richter as the offering. The question of plot hole then falls retroactively on Simon's Quest, which doesn't explain why Simon was able to revive Dracula without any offering. Simon's Quest started the "gather Dracula's parts" method, but the Classicvanias otherwise never specified how Dracula kept coming around. Then Rondo showed a sacrifice had to be offered. Since SOTN is Rondo's sequel, there must be a sacrifice there too -- which for whatever reason was the undying dark priest.
...
Ok, I'v egot nothing. I was trying.

I always thought Richter function was to keep away all the vampire hunters that may come to the castle to make time for Dracula to regenerate, perhaps that was the reason Maria was able to enter the castle? after all in Rondo Shaft was planning to use her to increase Dracula's powers if that's not the reason she's there then I don't know how to explain the fact Shaft let someone who could help Richter to free himself of his influence get into the castle.

[Raxivace]

That is likely actually true given another one of the Metroidvania's plots, but it'd probably be spoilers to say any more. How you thought of that without playing that particular MV is actually rather perplexing to me.

Well if killing Dracula causes Castlevania to crumble (As seen in the many endings of the games), than it would seem likely to me that trying to bring him back to life would bring back Castlevania too.

[TheouAegis]

Except maybe the castle didn't crumble because Drac held it together, but rather because the awesome destructive power of Drac's destruction was so great that it destroyed the castle. ... ... Yeah. Just saying, think of it like a bomb going off deep inside the castle. You might be able to outrun the bomb's blast, but the shockwave would reverberate through the walls, fracturing them and causing the structure to collapse in on itself. Just think of Drac's deaths as being like airplanes crashing into tall buildings. Otherwise, how would you explain the Castle appearing before Dracula's been revived? (Yes, I know he was technically in the Inverted Castle, but so then where did the regular Castle... which would be the actual inverted castle if it's not Dracula's real castle... o_O come from?)

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

Yes, I know he was technically in the Inverted Castle, but so then where did the regular Castle... which would be the actual inverted castle if it's not Dracula's real castle... o_O come from?

I'd guess they're just two parts of the same castle. Perhaps it's a situation like in

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Harmony of Dissonance. Richter was, under Shaft's control, probably the one who collected the pieces of Drac and gathered them together in order to reform the castle. Due to the dual nature (I don't know whether what happened to Richter would be called possession or what) of the one who is gathering the parts, like Maxim in HoD, the castle split into two layers. Only in this case one upside down instead of one existing parallel and side-by-side with the other. It seems possible to me that HoD's plot was made partially to explain the inverted castle and some other things about SotN that weren't explained within the game itself.

[Raxivace]

Except maybe the castle didn't crumble because Drac held it together, but rather because the awesome destructive power of Drac's destruction was so great that it destroyed the castle. ... ... Yeah. Just saying, think of it like a bomb going off deep inside the castle. You might be able to outrun the bomb's blast, but the shockwave would reverberate through the walls, fracturing them and causing the structure to collapse in on itself. Just think of Drac's deaths as being like airplanes crashing into tall buildings. Otherwise, how would you explain the Castle appearing before Dracula's been revived? (Yes, I know he was technically in the Inverted Castle, but so then where did the regular Castle... which would be the actual inverted castle if it's not Dracula's real castle... o_O come from?)

If Dracula held THAT much explosive power within him that could blow up a whole castle, he could just blow himself up to kill the Belmonts, Al Qaeda style. And then just count (lol pun) on being revived again in 100 years. It's a slow plan, but it would work.

The idea of a castle being tied to Dracula's life was and crumbling after his death was also an originally planned ending element for the Bram Stoker novel from what I understand, that was later cut out. I just assumed the Castlevania writers liked the idea though and used it.

Also I just figured trying to revive Dracula would bring back or summon Castlevania. Not that he would actually have to be revived first for it to appear. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to go there in Simon's Quest, since he was revived in the castle.

I don't know where the Inverted Castle comes from, if it isn't just the top half of Castlevania in SotN.

[Nagumo]

Curse of Darkness kind of implies that there is a connection between Dracula and the castle. I believe the castle was resurrected at the same time as he was. Then again, in SotN the castle somehow is already there when Dracula is still dead. Though I believe Harmony of Dissonance states that Dracula's remains are already strong enough to make the castle appear. I think.