Topic: One word to describe the state of the franchise.

[TheouAegis]

Nobody ever reads full posts. The last line of my Americans post explains the correlation between Spaniards and America.

And if you're born in America, you're American, not Spanish. If your brother wasn't killed by a Jet, you're American.
SNAP!

The palette in CV2 is one of the biggest gripes about it (and the crappy clues and not knowing what to do and crappy bosses and horrible level design...). It was supposedly cited somewhere that Konami went back to CV1's palette style because there was so much backlash about CV2's. I don't know why they didn't change it in CV2 before releasing it. Maybe they wanted to try to be artistic. Or maybe they're color blind. At least Konami listens to its critics and tries to right its wrongs.

...Unlike SNK Playmore which keeps releasing shitty knock-offs of SNK's glory days....... God, who brought up that Judgement thread? Now i'm grumpy.

[GummiCandyful]

You mean Spanish-American. The only "real" Americans are the Native Indian ones, IMO.

Back on  topic, I'm not really familiar with Wayforward and Platinum Games, but I'd be willing to give them a chance if they made a Castlevania game, as it is refreshing to see other people's take on the series.

[Sumac]

CV2 had darker pallets if I recall.

I am sorry, it seems I meant something else. Not brightness, but general "aquarelness" of palette.
For me CV1 looks gritty and almost muddy. Sprites of background and enemies looked like they didn't had clear outline, as if somewhat coloured them with aquarel. The same goes for the backgrounds.
In CV2 there were brighter colours and almost everything had clearer outlines. Except for the latest mansions in the game.

You also neglected to mention CVA1, CVChronicles, Legends, Dracula X, and Adventure Rebirth for some reason; I guess because they didn't have notable differences worth mentioning from what came before.

I didn't mention CVA and Legends because I forgot about them. And as far as I remember DX and CVC didn't had major innovations, when it came to gameplay.

Also, for Bloodlines, I'm not really sure different locales rather than just castles are notable for it alone--CV3, 4, Dracula X, and Rondo all have outdoor areas or areas leading up to the castle which aren't castle interior, like caves, forests and other varied environments.

The fact that game didn't take place in the Castle and its surroundings already was pretty innovative, I'd say. Though I think it was not the first game that did it - it was CVA2 technically, but there action took place in a different castles, so it was kind of like CV2.

Also, the 8 directional whipping innovation seems to be mostly a hitbox variation issue, of which most castleroids have in spades.

I think it was very major innovation comparing to the previous games. In the past you never had such freedom with your weapon. And we talking about overall innovations in the series, so I think this counts.

The problem is, with that type of loose description and justification, you do indeed end up acknowledging a great deal of video games as clones of each other and make it difficult for much innovation beyond major genre or structural changes to be satisfactory.

Well, my problem with Castleroids in general is like this - they all for the most part, felt the same to me. No matter how much sugar-coating and new subsystems the game had, in the end I felt like I playing simple addon to the SOTN, not a separate game. Only two games came close to be considered as more or less separate entities - COTM and OOE, that actually did more than just having trying to retread SOTN for N-th time.
This is why I strictly oppose to the returning of this style into the series. At least for the time being. I am not sure, maybe its just only my personal feelings about the matter, but I think that's how some other people feel about "metroidvanias".
 

Finally, things like the HoD spell book system or the OoE glyph system I agree are mostly only minor changes in ways of doing things the games to some extent did before, but I wouldn't exactly lump the partner system in PoR in with that.

The bad thing that dual partner system in POR was useless for the most time. It was only useful in the begining of the game, when developers thought of providing some puzzles to solve with this system. Later they mostly forgot about it and the game was comletely beatable with only one character, except for the few boss battles.
I think it could have been a major innovation, if it was done right. As it was executed it was more of a gimmick for the begining of the game. Like only 20% of what it could have been.

Wayforward

They made Contra 4 and BloodRayne Bertrayal, which according to many people resembles CastleVania in more than just having vampires.

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

Well, my problem with Castleroids in general is like this - they all for the most part, felt the same to me.

But--feelings must be controlled! =3

No matter how much sugar-coating and new subsystems the game had, in the end I felt like I playing simple addon to the SOTN, not a separate game. Only two games came close to be considered as more or less separate entities - COTM and OOE, that actually did more than just having trying to retread SOTN for N-th time.

Generally I just don't get that feel, which is probably why I'm not tired of them. I can perhaps try to expound on why but it's difficult for other people to understand why games feel a certain way to other people.

CotM: A whip as the only main weapon makes it a bit different than SotN, DSS system was actually somewhat different for its time compared to anything SotN did since its spells generally faded into the background and the traditional subweapons with their traditional hitboxes were the main form of attack besides the weapon. The castle layout definitely felt different, if worse due to all the obvious generic obstructions at random points in rooms dedicated just for them (the box rooms and the slide-required rooms). Enemy set was pretty different if unfortunately having a lot of palette swaps. Besides the central hub area, the areas felt more "blocky" in layout than SotN as well with their own dedicated spaces in the map. The graphical style was probably closer to SotN than either HoD or AoS, but not exactly a match.

HoD: Another whip game, and the weird atmosphere the graphics and the 8-bit music generated pretty much dominated this one for me, making it hard to get the same feel as SotN, despite the genre conventions in use. The Subweapons combining with the spell books to produce unique spells felt more like a take on CotM than anything out of SotN really. I suppose the subweapons should make it feel more like SotN but ended up giving me more of a classic feel (probably due to the worse graphics as well), so that sort of deflected that possible SotN feel being there for me. Also, the lower graphical capabilities of the GBA meant that they didn't reuse SotN enemies' sprites yet, so that also made it feel a lot less connected to SotN. The second castle and the 'collect Drac's parts' sidequest for the good ending were about the only things I recall off the top of my head that were reminiscent besides the formula-specific stuff like equipment and items to open new areas.

AoS: In gameplay this one feels  closer to SotN than CotM or HoD due to the return of nonwhip main weapons, but the graphical style, not as weird as HoD's but not as high quality as SotN's still doesn't remind me that much of SotN. The colors are still lighter and it generates a different atmosphere for me. The soul system feels more like a change up of the CotM-HoD spell system than anything in SotN. The plot tends to differentiate it given that it's in the future and after Dracula's demise (perhaps an equivalent 'change' to the oddness of Bloodlines taking place all over Europe, unless one really puts a lot of emphasis on the plot).

DoS: Now due to the return of the high quality graphical style, visuals feel more like SotN than any of the GBA games, but the snowy entranceway still seemed to set up a different first impression of the atmosphere that I can't shake and some of the areas are odd change-ups atmosphere-wise compared to SotN, like the garden area or the silenced ruins. The caves and clock tower have more of a SotN atmosphere. Actually I don't think any of the castles have given me the exact same atmosphere though, besides perhaps DoS and PoR. Soul system is rehashed so again that element and the returning Soma made it feel more like AoS. There's a bit of an unwanted innovation of souls powering new weapon creation but it isn't too huge a change.

PoR and OoE definitely started feeling even more alien (compared to the SotN formula) to me given the layouts being more linear. The PoR castle of course was reminiscent of SotN but it did not end up really being the main focus of the game, and there was a reduction in the "collecting items to open new areas" count due to the more linear, self contained, and totally "open" portraits taking up a lot more of the game than the castle. By "open" I mean that once you got into one you knew you likely had everything you'd need to go through most of the portrait world and reach the boss at the end rather than having to frequently backtrack to the castle or another portrait. This of course was a precursor to OoE doing away with a castle "hub" entirely and going to the world map system. Spells as weapons also felt a lot different because of all the weird hitboxes you could use as a "regular" weapon rather than some rare-use side attack. The combat requiring a lot of alternating Y and X often made it feel a bit different than the combat in the previous games. Like with PoR, the castle once you get to it is generally too small to provide a lot of "collect item, use it to progress through some past barrier" issues. It was still there occasionally but reduced and not really the focus it was in CotM-DoS.

So in the end, for me, it ends up being more like: There are games which feel like SotN in noncombat gameplay (CotM-DoS), games which feel like SotN in combat gameplay (AoS-PoR), or games which feel somewhat like SotN in graphical style (DoS-OoE). But far from having every game possessing the exact same elements there together, some of them have some aspects of SotN's gameplay or graphical style, and others offer a bit of a change up. The RPG system, however, is just so innate that I expect it to be there rather than wanting it to be changed up.

After typing that, it seems to me you focus more on the core mechanics of the games and that's generally why you get the same feel, the RPG (level, equipment) system, the "formula" of finding new items to access additional areas (although PoR and OoE didn't have as much of this given they have other methods of restricting your egress), whereas what I end up reminded of in each game is differing atmospheres, castle layouts or spell/attack mechanics.

I find that generally when I don't much like a genre a series is using at the time I end up wanting more innovation in the formula. For example, I'm generally lukewarm on Zelda after ALTTP and I'm always waiting for them to change up the dungeon-item-boss-collectable formula, but I notice the majority of Zelda players always clamor for the next Zelda and don't really care if that formula changes. You may feel similarly with the castleroid/metroidvania formula.

I am not sure, maybe its just only my personal feelings about the matter, but I think that's how some other people feel about "metroidvanias".

I've seen other people express similar views. Of course I've also seen other people begging for another metroidvania/castleroid as well or entirely expecting that one will come. I expect it'd probably still sell at least on the level of the DS CVs if they were to make another.

The bad thing that dual partner system in POR was useless for the most time. It was only useful in the begining of the game, when developers thought of providing some puzzles to solve with this system. Later they mostly forgot about it and the game was comletely beatable with only one character, except for the few boss battles.
I think it could have been a major innovation, if it was done right. As it was executed it was more of a gimmick for the begining of the game. Like only 20% of what it could have been.

These little puzzles are actually a bit more spread out than you may remember. For example, the train puzzle was in the final "13th street" portrait before you gain access to the series of final boss fights, the go-kart thing is around the half-way point and some of the simpler implementations are earlier in order to access some of the early portraits. Surely though, these puzzles didn't pervade the game or anything, but I think that was probably intentional so as not to interfere with what the player was likely mainly looking for, which was less of a puzzle platformer and more of a combat-platformer, with the puzzles as more of a side thing.

[Sumac]

But--feelings must be controlled! =3

We talk not about emotions, but sensations.

After typing that, it seems to me you focus more on the core mechanics of the games and that's generally why you get the same feel, the RPG (level, equipment) system, the "formula" of finding new items to access additional areas (although PoR and OoE didn't have as much of this given they have other methods of restricting your egress), whereas what I end up reminded of in each game is differing atmospheres, castle layouts or spell/attack mechanics.

Most likely.
Castlevania was always about gameplay for me, first and foremost, that's how I come to like the series. That and awesome music. Story and atmosphere usually were second, when it come to this series. However sometimes they played a big part in why I liked games, usually when they managed to stand out form the crowd (like CV64 and SCV4). Besides I couldn't completely concentrate on atmosphere, if gameplay dissatisfies me in some regards.

There are some exceptions, but not with Castlevania.
And as I said before COTM and OOE felt to me pretty different from the MV-crowd. Though I despise HOD almost as much as HD. And POR was a clusterfuck of good ideas executed horribly wrong, IMO.

These little puzzles are actually a bit more spread out than you may remember.

Maybe I do forgot few. Actually after first set of portraits I was ready to finish the game, when SUDDENLY another set of portraits appeared. Given that it was IGA's game, I already knew that they would be copypasta-fest, so I try to complete them as fast as I could.

Surely though, these puzzles didn't pervade the game or anything, but I think that was probably intentional so as not to interfere with what the player was likely mainly looking for, which was less of a puzzle platformer and more of a combat-platformer, with the puzzles as more of a side thing.

I personally felt that the game should have rely more on the Dual Partner System, since it was kind of the main new mechanic introduced in this game. When supposedly main mechanic is useless for the most of the game duration, it invoke some questions about neccesity of said mechanic in the first place.
After I read about this game I hoped to use two characters for the most of the time, but when it came to actual gameplay - for 90% of the game I used only one character. It was kind of letdown, since aside from DPS other innovations were minor and and if not the fact that I played as Charlotte, the game would fell to me like DOS copycat, but with even more uninpired design.

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

I personally felt that the game should have rely more on the Dual Partner System, since it was kind of the main new mechanic introduced in this game. When supposedly main mechanic is useless for the most of the game duration, it invoke some questions about neccesity of said mechanic in the first place.

A lot of games seem to do this when they try to introduce some kind of innovation into an existing genre (typically using some new functionality in control), like Folklore with the Sixaxis mechanic in soul extraction, DoS with the stylus seals, or even Lords of Shadow with the Sixaxis ledge balancing (although that was a much smaller part of the game to be sure).

I'm not entirely sure how they could've required the partner system be more prevalent without repeating essentially the same puzzles many times (although that might be a failure of my own imagination). There are some enemies where one character's attacks are not that effective and you're better off switching characters to get optimal damage, but that doesn't require both characters to be out.

Perhaps they could've required a strike from both characters at nearly the same time to do damage or to finish off some enemies, required dual crushes in more places, required dual crushes to open specific side paths, and have more enemies like Death that grabbed one character and forced you to use the other to free him/her. Unfortunately a lot of these ideas to me seem more annoying than amusing as gameplay mechanics, sort of like any of the three above examples.

After I read about this game I hoped to use two characters for the most of the time, but when it came to actual gameplay - for 90% of the game I used only one character. It was kind of letdown, since aside from DPS other innovations were minor and and if not the fact that I played as Charlotte, the game would fell to me like DOS copycat, but with even more uninpired design.

I ended up using both (i.e. having both out) for probably 95% of the game, since it never seemed to hurt much (despite one's life bar being the magic bar), but it did help, especially with the special button to instantly use the other's special. I also ended up swapping between them and playing as both a couple times a portrait or so, so I suppose I got quite a different experience.

[Flame]

and BloodRayne Bertrayal, which according to many people resembles CastleVania in more than just having vampires.

Mainly music and some of the aesthetics. Like some of the stage design resembles something you might see in castlevania.

[Belmont Stakes]

The word I choose is hyphenated and I am not sure if it is a real word.

The word is self-estranged........(ding)

[Sumac]

A lot of games seem to do this when they try to introduce some kind of innovation into an existing genre.
I'm not entirely sure how they could've required the partner system be more prevalent without repeating essentially the same puzzles many times (although that might be a failure of my own imagination).

I am think that they could've created many varied ideas of how to use both characters in the game. They already had some good ideas, just seemingly didn't want to use them to 100%.

and have more enemies like Death that grabbed one character and forced you to use the other to free him/her.

I think battle with Reaper was one of the best uses of the DPS in the game.

I ended up using both (i.e. having both out) for probably 95% of the game, since it never seemed to hurt much (despite one's life bar being the magic bar), but it did help, especially with the special button to instantly use the other's special. I also ended up swapping between them and playing as both a couple times a portrait or so, so I suppose I got quite a different experience.

I try limit my usage of special moves during the game - it just takes too much time and usually not worth it, because of the low difficulty. Besides, it more fun to jump around and kill enemies "personally", rather than unleashing some BIG BOOM on them. Most of the time at least. Charlotte and Maria (in SOTN Saturn) were good for both things. And combinations to execute specials weren't that complicated.

[GummiCandyful]

BloodRayne Bertrayal, which according to many people resembles CastleVania in more than just having vampires.

Oh, how could I forget; I remember seeing screenshots of that game, and it pretty much seemed very Castlevania-like to me. I really do wish Wayforward would make a 2D game now.

[Malus793]

I can't describe the state of the franchise in one word.  Two words, I can do.

Identity crisis.

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

I try limit my usage of special moves during the game - it just takes too much time and usually not worth it, because of the low difficulty. Besides, it more fun to jump around and kill enemies "personally", rather than unleashing some BIG BOOM on them. Most of the time at least. Charlotte and Maria (in SOTN Saturn) were good for both things. And combinations to execute specials weren't that complicated.

I'm talking about the minor specials that are pretty instantaneous like Charlotte's Raging Fire or Jonathan's subweapons that are a pretty quick cast rather than the lengthy dual crushes there. I didn't really end up using dual crushes that much besides on some bosses.

[Successor The Cruel]

From what I can tell, it's pretty universally believed (at least everywhere I look in the Castlevania fanbase) that the series is currently terrible. Perhaps even as bad as it's ever been. I think it would really be folly for Konami to continue the course that they are on. If they don't, they will survive solely on casuals who could not give a crap about Castlevania. These people buy a new game just because they buy new games, discuss them at Gamefaqs/Gamespot for about a month or less, and then once they're done with them, put them away forever or sell them and repeat the process. It's true that one guy's money is as good as the next, but it's saddening what it going on. As I've stressed before, they're generally not bringing in new fans with this stuff.

I'm really not convinced of Lords of Shadow's stellar sales because, from my personal experience, I'm seeing no evidence of them. I didn't have to go out of my way to know that San Andreas, Metroid Prime, Star Wars: Battlefront, Halo and Assasin's Creed were really big games. I've generally been around the gaming community enough to be able to tell what is a big deal and what is not, and Lords of Shadow ain't seeming like much of a big deal. When people talk about great 3D action games, it does not come up.

So, what I'm saying is...

No new fans + disillusioned and disheartened old fans = why should you continue this?

But, I dunno'. Maybe it's a game that sold a lot that nobody cares about... kinda' like a Nickelback CD or something.

[Vrakanox]

From what I can tell, it's pretty universally believed (at least everywhere I look in the Castlevania fanbase) that the series is currently terrible. Perhaps even as bad as it's ever been. I think it would really be folly for Konami to continue the course that they are on. If they don't, they will survive solely on casuals who could not give a crap about Castlevania. These people buy a new game just because they buy new games, discuss them at Gamefaqs/Gamespot for about a month or less, and then once they're done with them, put them away forever or sell them and repeat the process. It's true that one guy's money is as good as the next, but it's saddening what it going on. As I've stressed before, they're generally not bringing in new fans with this stuff.

I'm really not convinced of Lords of Shadow's stellar sales because, from my personal experience, I'm seeing no evidence of them. I didn't have to go out of my way to know that San Andreas, Metroid Prime, Star Wars: Battlefront, Halo and Assasin's Creed were really big games. I've generally been around the gaming community enough to be able to tell what is a big deal and what is not, and Lords of Shadow ain't seeming like much of a big deal. When people talk about great 3D action games, it does not come up.

So, what I'm saying is...

No new fans + disillusioned and disheartened old fans = why should you continue this?

But, I dunno'. Maybe it's a game that sold a lot that nobody cares about... kinda' like a Nickelback CD or something.

This is pretty much the exact same way I feel about it. God of War fans aren't going to leave GoW and come to Castlevania. LoS just makes the games it tries to be look better in comparison.

[AkuITA]

Retrovania(s): dying
Reboot : not requied

This my first, and last post. Lurker for years, vintage player from Italy (yes..Italy)
^^o