Topic: Judgment: canon or not?

[Nagumo]

I was talking to IGA on Facebook, and I was asking about the canonity of certain games (because it's something I'm interested in) in order to clear up some confusion that has arisen over it. Basically, the timeline that came along with Portrait of Ruin was incorrect in some regards, because IGA still insists that Circle of the Moon, and the N64 games are not in the timeline (I never really believed that timeline was correct anyway). He also confirmed that Order of Shadows and the Arcade are non-canon because they were intented from the very beginning to be such:

Regarding Castlevania 64, Legacy of Darkness, Circle of the Moon, Order of Shadows and the Arcade, they are stories from a separate world with the same world view.
Castlevania 64, Legacy of Darkness and Circle of the Moon are treated in the same way as the makers intended.
Also, for Order of Shadows and the Arcade, we proceeded from the start with the plan to create them as a separate continuity, since we thought including them in the formal series would cause a variety of production difficulties.

   

世界観 (world view) means something like atmosphere and aesthetic combined.

Interestingly enough, he used the word 別の世界 (different world/alternate universe). Non-canon seems to imply that these stories never happend at all, which isn't quite the same thing as 別の世界. IGA says these games literary take place in an alternate universe, it is not a synonym for non-canon.

Anyway, that got me thinking. Cornell appears in Judgment, but Legacy of Darkness does not take place in the main timeline. That would either mean a) Judgment is non-canon b) the Cornell that appears in Judgment is  a "reimagined Cornell" or c) Cornell is taken from a different universe than the other characters in Judgment. I asked this question to IGA as well, but his answer was kind of vague:

You mentioned Legend of Cornell was an alternate continuity. Howevef, Cornell appears in Castlevania Judgment, which I believe is not an alternate continuity. How does that work? is he from a different universe than the other characters? It is not really explained in the game itself so I was hoping you could give some clarification on the issue.

   

"Judgment" is a work that surpasses space and time and brings them together.
Without thinking about it too deeply, it has simply been chosen for the character that pervades the series.
I don't know if that's the kind of answer you were looking for, but that's about the size of it.

It is not a direct answer to my question. However, it does seem to rule out the b option already. In my question, I did say that I didn't think Judgment was non-canon, however he doesn't seem to catch on to that because he explains Cornell's appearance by saying that "Judgment is a work that surpasses space and time and brings them together" and not because it is non-canon. Which would only leave the c option.

Does anybody agree with that conclusion (Judgment is canon, Cornell is from a different universe that the other Judgment characters). Or would you still say Judgment is non-canon and just leave it at that?                       

[darkwzrd4]

I think that it's a toss up.  A time rift would explain everything because it would affect not just time but every reality as well.  This explains Cornell.  Also, I believe that all the characters lost their memory of the time rift when they were returned from whence they came.  As I said, it's a toss up.  It can really go either way. 

[X]

I believe that Judgement is it's own entity entirely. It doesn't fit anywhere in any real CV timeline or meshes properly with any of the continuity. It is it's own game, it's own universe, it's own story. This is the only real way for it to exist without interfering with the other games. Besides, who wants to continut to see Grant as a mummy rather then a properly drawn pirate?  Also the Trevor/Sypha/Grant love triangle? I call bulls**t on that one.

[Sumac]

As far as I know Judgement story happened in a time rift that disappeared after Time Reaper was defeated. So events of this kind of happened, but didn't had any lasting effect on any anything, making this game sort of non-canon / canon.
However the general idea that there is more CV universes than one, could possibly bring some ease to the some people minds, if it is what IGA meant.

As for art direction - it always changed through the series, so I don't see CVJ versions of character as separate entities from their original forms. Just another take on them.

[Nagumo]

Also, I believe that all the characters lost their memory of the time rift when they were returned from whence they came. 

Yes, I think the characters obviously lost their memories of what happend. It would be a pretty silly reason to consider Judgment non-canon because the characters would still remember what happend in the time rift, especially since hand waving that away with amnesia requires zero effort.   

However the general idea that there is more CV universes than one, could possibly bring some ease to the some people minds, if it is what IGA meant.

I really like that idea myself. And I'm kind of hoping that is indeed what IGA meant. 

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Personally, the game incensed me enough that I rarely admit it was made at all.

You want a Castlevania mash? Go play Harmony of Despair.

No, I do not consider it canon.

[Danial]

Hey Nagumo, next time you get a chance to chat with Iga could you ask him if he'll give the specific year that Order of Ecclesia takes place?  This question has been driving me crazy.

I feel like all the games, minus LoS of course, can fit easily into one streamlined continuity.  I know Iga has his own specific timeline of events, but none of the games really exclude themselves entirely from fitting in.  Judgment fits in easily because none of its events happen in normal space/time.  The only things that concern themselves with continuity are when the characters are taken from and when the Time Reaper comes from.

[Nagumo]

Sure, I'll try. However, he sometimes is a bit reluctant to give away certain information because he is not allowed to reveal it and I'm asking him things during his free time.

Also, if anybody thinks Judgment is non-canon, could you perhaps give a reason for why you think so? Aside from "because I don't like the game"?       

[Inccubus]

I believe that Judgement is it's own entity entirely. It doesn't fit anywhere in any real CV timeline or meshes properly with any of the continuity. It is it's own game, it's own universe, it's own story. This is the only real way for it to exist without interfering with the other games. Besides, who wants to continut to see Grant as a mummy rather then a properly drawn pirate?  Also the Trevor/Sypha/Grant love triangle? I call bulls**t on that one.

This.

[Nagumo]

I wouldn't worry too much about the character designs sticking. Whetever a game is canon or not does not mean its art style will remain or something. Judgment also had some stupid character scenarios but most are ok.   

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Maria is a perfect example of why I hold the game as non-canon. Her personality is so utterly distinct and butchered from her previous appearances that there really is no similarity to the original character outside of a grating voice.

Maria in Rondo is portrayed as innocent, and certainly naive, but never the cup-size obsessive we see in Judgment. She's a sweet girl, confident in herself and her own abilities. Furthermore, in Symphony (which is post-Rondo AND post-Judgment) she is shown to be a mature, cool-headed individual who's only displayed insecurity is a hinted at unrequited attraction to Alucard.

If Maria was plucked out of time between Rondo and Symphony, or even POST-Symphony, there would be no reason for her personality to be so absurdly different. If anything, she'd be showing a maturity beyond her years.

Changes like those are why I hold Judgment to be non-canon.

[Koutei]

I think that you should question IGA. "Did you get fired from the producer of Castlevania series?"

It sets aside and I think that a Judgment will be canon within IGA's brain.

[Reinhart77]

i'd like to think as much of Judgment that is logically possible is "canon", but not necessarily applicable to the "main" timeline.  the main timeline and LoD timeline are connected in a multiverse, and Judgment bridges the gap between those two timelines.   i think that's consistent with what Iga's saying.

but since characters can be pulled from any "timeline", there's no way of knowing for sure if the timeline they were pulled from was the "main" timeline.  Carmilla "could" have been pulled from Circle of the Moon's timeline or the main one.  if they later on decide that they didn't like a particular element of the character's backstory that they made up for Judgment and contradict it, they can always say, "well, he was coming from a different timeline".

EDIT:
On second thought, I think Iga's quote "it has simply been chosen for the character that pervades the series" is an indication that it's not canon.  As much as I'd like otherwise. 

[Nagumo]

All games in the series that are non-canon have this confirmed by the developers themselves somehow before the game was released, except Legends, but that one is an exception.

CotM: I believe it was confirmed in a Japanese magazine
N64: Confirmed by the title itself, Demon Castle Dracula Apocalypse Gaiden.
OoS: Confirmed by one of the developers.

If Judgment was intented to be non-canon, it would have been mentioned. Also, I think IGA would have explained Cornell's appearance by saying it was non-canon, instead of the answer he actually gave. I think the developers wouldn't have even bothered to come up with the time travel plot in the first place if it was non-canon.

It seems I managed to convince myself.         

[Successor The Cruel]

I think the developers wouldn't have even bothered to come up with the time travel plot in the first place if it was non-canon.

It seems I managed to convince myself.       

Most games these days have stories. How would all those characters meet up unless time's natural flow was being disregarded somehow?