Topic: Game Creation Techniques

[Corpsecrank]

Basically what this thread is about is discussing different aspects of game making. More specifically technical aspects that cause snags or headaches and different methods for dealing with that.

We have a lot of people working on fan games here. More than I have seen anywhere else actually. Because of that I thought discussing different methods we use for dealing with certain things might be beneficial. For those that are new to game making it can help give you a better understanding of what goes on "behind the scenes" in a game.

If you are going to discuss anything be sure to note the application or method you are using to make games. If you are using game maker, flash/actionscript, code from scratch etc.

I guess to start this off I would like to ask a question. Tiling in a game necessary or not? What would stop you from using solid layers for the background and then setting up an invisible area for a character to collide with and walk on? What are the advantages/disadvantages to tiling or not tiling? Specifically for platforming games I suppose just to keep things clear. I never gave any real thought to breaking everything into tiles vs just tossing in a background and designating a solid area of collision for the character to move along. This is why I want to ask if there is any good reason to use a tiling setup instead.

[Inccubus]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the most important technique in game creation is backups. Always keep multiple back ups in multiple places. And at least one of those should be kept in an online archive such as mediafire. Far too often have I seen great projects that show promise be taken down by the loss of the work due to a crash or what not.

[darkmanx_429]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the most important technique in game creation is backups. Always keep multiple back ups in multiple places. And at least one of those should be kept in an online archive such as mediafire. Far too often have I seen great projects that show promise be taken down by the loss of the work due to a crash or what not.

Agreed, I have a dropbox sorely for this. It would also be wise to give fans a beta version of your game so you can always have something to fall back on...

[Corpsecrank]

Yeah backups are important beyond just making games. Any project should be thoroughly backed up to prevent loss. I once lost an entire month of work on a game server because my backup failed and I only had one on disc. The disc didn't burn properly and it contained everything I had done since the previous backup. This was back in the end of the win98 days though. Back then if you did the kind of work on your pc we do today by the end of the month it completely wrecked the system and you would need to restore it to clear up all the crashing and glitching the system would have going on. I am so glad they finally got a stable OS out these days.

[Esco]

Basically what this thread is about is discussing different aspects of game making. More specifically technical aspects that cause snags or headaches and different methods for dealing with that.

We have a lot of people working on fan games here. More than I have seen anywhere else actually. Because of that I thought discussing different methods we use for dealing with certain things might be beneficial. For those that are new to game making it can help give you a better understanding of what goes on "behind the scenes" in a game.

If you are going to discuss anything be sure to note the application or method you are using to make games. If you are using game maker, flash/actionscript, code from scratch etc.

I guess to start this off I would like to ask a question. Tiling in a game necessary or not? What would stop you from using solid layers for the background and then setting up an invisible area for a character to collide with and walk on? What are the advantages/disadvantages to tiling or not tiling? Specifically for platforming games I suppose just to keep things clear. I never gave any real thought to breaking everything into tiles vs just tossing in a background and designating a solid area of collision for the character to move along. This is why I want to ask if there is any good reason to use a tiling setup instead.

Because it is not as easy to edit then for one thing. Since it is a whole background instead of separate tiles. Also, in games that use solid/unsolid tiles, no collision checking is done on non-solid tiles. Which means less resources are used, since collision with EVERY tile is not checked.

[TheouAegis]

Using Game Maker, I've already shown how to reduce memory usage by scaling the invisible solid objects. But as Esco said and as I have argued for months now on GMC (to deaf eyes, since they're all more stubborn than range horses), any object that has no real use is wasted space. Sure, it makes things easier to work with many times, but it's still a waste. In my Castlevania engine, splash effects and rubble from broken walls are objects, but that's horrible planning on my part; they should be sprites drawn via timeline accessed via the broken wall or the player.

Anyway, I've also already shown that in Game Maker you can easily (... the term is used loosely) program an entire game with no collision objects, just tiles. I've even argued that in theory you could program an entire game with just a handful of invisible controller objects that just draw sprites to the screen (although that would be nuts).

The only argument that I've made on GMC that has been validated by anyone of note on that forum is that a game constructed around tiles rather than invisible solid collision objects will run many times faster and be less of a memory hog.

[Corpsecrank]

a game constructed around tiles rather than invisible solid collision objects will run many times faster and be less of a memory hog.

See I actually would have guessed the opposite to be true since individual tiles would need to be loaded to memory. A couple of large layers vs the same number of layers with tons of smaller items seems like the number of items would slow things down more.

Considering that what is the best method for breaking up graphics into tiles? Is there really any specific way to break things up or can you slice the graphics up any way you see fit? I know some tiles would be things that would repeat like the blocks in classic castlevania games but what about more complex things like the ds games and sotn? It doesn't seem like those would be as easy to break apart. I guess I will have to go play with some roms and see how they were busted up in the original games.

Interesting stuff. I would like to try both methods with benchmarking and post the results when I get some time. Been moving all month so I only have a couple hours a day at the moment. I think it would be great to keep updating this with examples of good ways for handling things. It could prove really useful for people who plan on making a game anyhow.

[Aridale]

it all depends on the program used. GameMaker you almost HAVE to be tile based with objects cause of performance. It was designed that way. Somethin like html 5 it wouldnt matter cause its just graphics like anything else. It might actually be better to use full backgrounds instead of tiles with it.

traditionally 2d games are done with tiles cause of useability small size and memory restrictions. Theres no reason that has to be true now... UNLESS your program was designed that way

[Corpsecrank]

Well fo rmy game I am using MMF2 so I am guessing I should use a tile set instead of a full background but I could be wrong too. I am still new to this myself. Maybe I should ask around over on the MMF2 forum which is best since that is what I use.

The html5 thing makes sense but I know nothing about html5. I keep hearing it is so amazing and will eventually replace flash etc. Is it really that great though? Also with html5 wouldn't you be restricted to a browser or is it able to be used without a browser? Not real familiar with html outside of web page stuff and even then I have limited knowledge.

Back to tiles vs full backgrounds. Lets expand on this some and look at games other than platformers. I know an rpg can benefit more from tiles especially when talking classic style final fantasy games. What are the differences and pros cons?

[Aridale]

pros of tiles would be more variety in locations for typical 2d rpgs. 1 tileset can make dozens of different buildings that all look similar but not the same. Each building would have to be a individual img without a tileset. Thatd mean if you wanted a layout you didnt already have youd either have to do without or make it. But with tiles you could just arrange em as close to what you envisioned for the layout (and depending on how well the tileset was made) you wouldnt have to make any changes to the graphics you already had

You can also add a new tile to an existing tileset with as little effect as adding a whole new img. The difference is that new tile can be added into any existing maps AND new ones

The main thing would be how your game needed to be made from the beginning. If you wanted big graphics similar to Odin Sphere then itd make more sense to have big backgrounds cause tiles arent really ideal. But if you want to make somethin like a oldschool 2d rpg or a platform game then tiles would be a smarter idea

[Corpsecrank]

Yeah that makes sense. I remember how odd it was when they started using the "pre-rendered" backgrounds in rpgs around the ff7 years on psx. ff7 and saga frontier both used them and it was kind of a huge shift from the tile based era that came before. I remember having a difficult time finding exits on some maps and being able to determine what areas you could and could not walk on. With tiles you could almost always tell when an "edge" was.

Something I still wonder about though. Are we really that limited today? Look at the average pc and the amount of resources we have. Is memory and performance an issue for a game that is sprite based? There were obvious limitations on old consoles and even today a console vs a pc is like day and night. A cheap pc can easily out perform the best console on the market. You can spend 500 bucks and build a computer with superior graphics and resources because console hardware is like 10 years behind in a lot of areas especially graphics.

I guess that is why I have to wonder if we really need to be as concerned about resource usage. Other than efficiency I suppose. Because it is poor habit to just hog resources. I just wonder if you could even notice the difference without checking the resource usage.

I still need to dig around and find more info about tiling graphics in games. Specifically the best way to chop the graphics up. I will probably have to get my hands dirty with some roms though since I need to see specifically how certain graphics were broken up. Regardless of which uses less resources the question for me becomes which one is more flexible and I think tiling is obviously more flexible than solid backgrounds.

I have this weird way of thinking since I have spent more time creating and using graphics inside programs like flash. I feel like it is easy enough to make a single sheet of graphics as a psd or ai file and then change things there as needed. But with games it's not quite as easy. I can link and update my changes in a program like flash or illustrator lol. I guess that was why I had originally given tiles no real consideration over a solid background.

When I animate in flash if there is a change needed to a background I have used hundreds of times I can simple update my graphics in photoshop or illustrator and then update all instances of that background in flash in one shot. To bad MMF2 and other game making programs don't work that way eh.

[uzo]

Do you want your rooms of each stage to be 5MB to 25MB or just 500k? Do you want to spend a few days constitutions each room, or a few hours? Do you want your game to be unplayable on lower end computers? Do you want your game to have a terrible frame rate unless the PC is way over current standards?

Tiled graphics exist for a very good reason. Think about it for a moment, and you'll realize; 3D games also used 'tiled' graphics. It was never abandoned, or overcome, or outdated. It's very much in use today as it ever was.

[Aridale]

yeah just look at BethSoft games from Morrowind to Skyrim they all use tiles lol. Besides terrain 3d tiles make their entire games indoors and out

But I think Uzo means the textures tile mainly. 1 2*x2* texture tiled across the surface

[uzo]

If you really want to be a smart ass, then realize each polygon is a 'tile'.

But of course, I mean textures. Even if not in exactly the same format,  each texture has coordinates for the specific reusable portion of the image grouping. It's the same exact concept as traditional tiled 2d graphics, for the same exact reason. Reusability, centralization, and resource efficiency.

[Corpsecrank]

If you really want to be a smart ass, then realize each polygon is a 'tile'.

But of course, I mean textures. Even if not in exactly the same format,  each texture has coordinates for the specific reusable portion of the image grouping. It's the same exact concept as traditional tiled 2d graphics, for the same exact reason. Reusability, centralization, and resource efficiency.

I don't agree though. Textures across a 3D model are not like tiles in a 2D game at all. I know because I have worked with 3D meshes and models and they are VERY different. The texture is applied to a surface not a tile and each surface must have a texture applied to it to cover all the bare spots on the model. That is completely different than a tile because the size of the surface to be covered can vary in size and while a texture may be scaled and/or repeated as needed it is a totally different subject than sprite tiles.

I don't understand the idea that breaking up the same amount of graphics over a screen could effect how much memory it takes to load those graphics. Bottom line you are drawing the same amount of graphics on screen no matter how those graphics are put together. I think the memory usage must come from how the engine handles those graphics vs how the graphics are pieced together either as a whole or as chunks. But if you understand why smaller pieces = less resource usage please explain it because that is the point to learn why these things matter and how they make a difference.