Topic: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.

[Dracula9]

DXX is IMHO a clunky and considerably slower-paced game than Rondo.

Richter moves very slowly. If this was intentional then I'm shocked at it. But since even the Skeleton Apes are able to keep up with Richter easily, it's fair for me to say that Richter moves too slowly for one to really enjoy movement like Rondo.

The same applies to the backflip. I don't even know why it was retained in DXX since there aren't any real places that would make its use ingenious. There aren't any puzzles or clever hidden items to get to by backflipping over a gap too long to jump over, which ruins the point of the backflip. There aren't many places like that in Rondo, I'll admit, but there were some legitimately unique secrets/items that got easier to reach by using the backflip. Case and point, the giant heart in the Stage 3' Cemetery. It CAN be walked over, but utilizing the backflip for it creates, however momentary, a change of pace in the game's flow. The backflip could also be useful for dodging Drac's fireballs in Rondo. Trying that in DXX will result in a very likely death, or an immense feeling of luck and success if you can land on a platform. The dying part tends to happen more, at least for me last time I plated DXX.

There's also DXX's non-standard platforming aspects, or lack thereof as the case may be. The giant pendulums in Rondo's Clock Tower? Gone. Replaced by simple horizontal gears. Still a good platform aspect, but considerably less challenging to nail than the pendulums. You don't have to time your jump and landing as precisely on a static platform.

I also am bothered by you using hostage rescue to give DXX some light. Rondo has four hostages to rescue. DXX has two. Rondo requires the key to be held and used just as well as DXX, but there's a lot more challenge in maintaining the key in Rondo and not dying. The Behemoth has more holes to knock you into, half of which don't even take you to the right place.

[Flame]

Now some quick example of why XX is genius; to save both hostages requires more skill, not just finding them or by luck. ie. Having to have the key (why basically handed to you) on you makes the level harder since you can't use sub-weapons fro the first half, then the second half too if your clever enough to figure this out. Tell me this is not brilliant.

Rondo uses Keys too. have you... Even played Rondo? Or at least saved the Hostages?

Also, whats so bad about style? Why cant I have style AND substance? You dont have to be a graphics whore to want a good looking and aesthetically pleasing game. part of the game design is the aesthetic. It has to LOOK appealing, and in terms of Castlevania, the stage progression has to follow some kind of cohesive pattern.

And yeah, I still feel that level design wise, Rondo just feels better. XX just feels... bad?

The pacing also. Rondo is just better paced and the gameplay flows more smoothly, controls and mechanics notwithstanding.

Why dony you give us your views on why Rondo is so bad? I see you using XX examples, and asking us to explain Rondo, but what about some Rondo Examples?

[thernz]

I actually liked the raft ride too, because of how it mixed up the mechanics a bit. It wasn't just graphical fluff. Richter was given a much more limited space, and the inclination and rockiness of the level made you approach things in a different matter.

[knightmere]

DXX is a pretty bad port but it does have a nice challenge level, mostly due to cheap enemy placement and the fact that Richter controls like shit.  The only level that has interesting design is level one if only because of the cool flame effects that are actually better than any effects in Rondo.  The soundtrack is pretty good with a few tracks sounding even better, (bloody tears, bloodlines, cemetary) however sporting fewer tracks altogether.  I think just about all of the boss fights are tougher as well.  Its definitely not the worst game in the series, but a balanced one it is not.

[Abnormal Freak]

I can't understand anyone saying Rondo has poor design or that it's lacking in some way. IMO, it's one of the better- and tightly-designed games inf the series.

One thing I like about it so much is you have to use strategy. Some enemies require moving in for attack but then stepping way the hell back. You have to time your attacks and movements. DXX only has the spear guards and red knights, and lacks all the other such enemies.

Legends is a good game but it's my least favorite of the Classicvanias. But it's funny you would put that down while praising DXX, because they're both by the same director and Legends feels slightly less sloppy and more tightly controlled and designed than DXX, showing that the director learned a few things since his last game.

[X]

Rondo and CV: DX... I like 'em both. They each have certain strengths and weaknesses that make them stand out from one another. I first played Castlevania: Dracula X and did not hear about Rondo until some years later when I was exposed to the internet. CV: DX was and is still hard as shit for me. Rondo is similar but far and few I've found. In terms of Richter, I don't notice any real difference in the way he controls. Both are the same to me but I can tell that in CV: DX Richter does seem more heavier (Gravity wise) And that his attacks on enemies feel more solid then in Rondo. Despite that many here feel his back-flip is wasted in CV: DX I've found it to be a helpful strategy for the first stage boss fight. I also find that Richter's speed and how fast he progresses in the levels to be more realistic as the sprite implies. In Rondo his sprite animation is moving too slow while the level is passing by fast and this is clearly seen when looking at his feet. Rondo's levels do look better in terms of progression and transition, but I find that the coloration is more a kin to the NES games. I liked the way CV: DX's stages looked because it reminds me a little of SCV IV, but again they are flawed in the fact that they are disjointed from one another. Although not all the stages seem that way.
    I do find that in CV: DX, the lack of music tracks, stages, two of the four main characters and a non-playable Maria to be a bit of a cop out. However to me it feels complete, even the choice selections for the stages I find are better and you don't feel you're running all over the place time and again. One of the music tracks in Rondo, despite being of CD quality doesn't really play out well at all. That track is of course Vampire Killer. It has this...gap; An annoying pause that ruins the flow of the song which was (thank god) fixed and made better in CV: DX. Another thing that I don't get about Rondo is that you cannot complete all of the stages until after you've beaten Dracula. Why was this? I have absolutely no idea. It was only one stage that held no real meaning to it and was essentially a recycled area using the tiles from the Haunted ship and the dungeon stages. At least in the DXC they fixed that and made it more interesting; turning it into a unique stage all on it's own. But Dracula's stage is and should be the final one and this is where I found Rondo's design to go wrong. Both are great in some areas while both suck in others, but I still like them both and still play them both from time to time. This is simply how I feel about the two games and in no way do they reflect the opinions of everyone else here, FYI.

[VladCT]

If there's one glaring flaw in DXX it's the throne room's design. There was a safe spot in which you can just duck most of Dracula's (first form) attacks and spam the Axe whenever he's in range.

[Sinful]

Wow, there is so much talk about how the game looks and stuff. Man, this thread is all over the place.. Well it does confirm that everybody assumes Rondo is well designed by looks, large scope of game, and popularity alone... why not, SotN is a massive disaster in game design and balance, but you won't hear a peep about that either. IT's GTREAT!!... Listen, forget about how a game looks completely. And most importantly, forget how much more you love certain Castlevanias so much. Sigh, Rondo's major popularity is killing me here. Everybody feels they have to defend it in every category but from a perspective of gameplay & difficulty balance... well not really, some are mentioning a few things about it... now I got to look over this mess and find out these parts...

OK, lets see if I can answer some questions? I'm not gonna use quotes because it's a major pain since I can't open Quotes in new tabs (it's how I do it, then copy and paste it all in one post... is it that hard to implement this feature? Would greatly appreciate it );

- Yes I played Rondo (own the PSP game), but there aren't any parts where you need to hold the key for too long or where secondary weapons would come in very handy... I can only think of for the very brief moment in the clocktower where it would make taking the first bird thingy out less risky with my crap skills I have at the moment... forget if it'd be very handy for the second bird type thing there? After that you can use the key and forget about it. Woo, 2 enemies! In XX you can't use it for an entire level, and in that vertical part near Maria's door where you have to go up and having all these skulls appearing, a sub weapon like an Axe would come in very handy. Plus if I die with the key in Rondo, oh well, I'll try again via level select. But do have fun starting the game over in XX (personally I just keep going for both games, either path if fine by me + more replay incentive is OK by me).
- to the one that said XX is bad designed because you have to go all the way to the edge to make certain jumps. You've been watching the Angry videogame nerd, haven't you? Well, if you understand that guy, he will go out of his way for material as long as it's funny. So don't take him too seriously, it's just a show, remember that. And there tons of games that make you go all the way to the edge to make jumps. Even in Rondo (it's how I was able to reach the giant heart in the cemetery). Plus you don't have to go to the very edge to make jumps in XX, you do have enough extra room to prevent risking falling off.
- The backflip stuff. You know, I barely use this move in both games (though I use it more in Rondo, I think?). Yes I noticed there is more of a delay in XX, but it still gets me out of trouble with them spear guys. You just have smaller reaction time, is all... I also seem to pull this move off all the time in Rondo by accident, not sure if the same applies in XX?
- Who cares if you don't enjoy Ritchie's walking speed. This is a topic about game balance, not which game you like more. Yes I know most love Rondo over XX by leaps and bounds. No more reminders, please... plus really, both games control very similarly, complain about XX controls is pretty much just like complain about Rondo's controls... I think we should drop Ritchie's controls from this topic, no?
- all you have do do in the raft ride is face left and constantly jump and whip. Then when you see a bird with the sign, prepare to leap right. Wow, this level is so in-depth!  ... Come on, it's just style over substance like most of the game, again. Nothing wrong with this, I love style in my games (why I mostly don't like modern 3D games, no style), dare I say more then gameplay?  It's just that if the gameplay is really poor, I'll just stick with VG Maps and spriters resource... Luckily I don't have this problem with Rondo at all.
- Also, Abnormal Freak said; Also, so many of the baddies in DXX can be killed by standing behind a block on the floor or throwing holy water from up above. These areas which ought to be tight pinches are easy as can be and you can just step back and attack. Real awesome designing there. You mean this can't be done from a safe distance and/or through walls with sub weapons in all other classic Castlevania games?    ... well, with the whip in Super Castlevania 4, you don't have worry about subweapons making the game much easier, since the whip in this game can reach enemies from a safe distance too for most of the game... man Abnormal Freak, you just made the classic Castlevania series look like total sh*t from a design perspective.. hey, do a challenge for Rondo next!!.
- oh, and Legfends and XX was directed by the same guy!!!!  Wow, that guy must of had an army of numb nuts when he made Legends. Because man, that game is the perfect example of a solid zero when it comes to Castlevania game design, and luckily no other 2D Castlevania comes close to that low standard from what I played.

Well, I've been playing some Rondo today, gonna try and squeeze some XX if I can today also... because it seems you guys don't want to let go of this Rondo VS XX topic anytime soon?

If there's one glaring flaw in DXX it's the throne room's design. There was a safe spot in which you can just duck most of Dracula's (first form) attacks and spam the Axe whenever he's in range.

Hey, that's how I beat Dracula too!!! But psst. Your supposed to keep it a secret, Dracula XX is unbeatable as they say.  (Man, the axe has got to be the best weapon in any classic vania game to make up for no Super Simon whip in every direction ability)

[Nagumo]

I guess I'm not smart enough to fully figure this out as to what you might mean?... I think I brought this difficulty thing up because it has a great impact on game design. Sure there should be both hard and easy games to suit each mood (I know my moods changed from hard to easy games quite a few times already), but do all games have to be easy nowadays? Or better yet, do all Castlevania games have to be easy & broken nowadays? Why can't I wish for one more old school challenge style Castlevania in the very simple classic style with the same classic Konami genius design? (This means made in-house by Konami & no whip that has more angles then Bloodlines & no more then the classic sub-weapons for other weapons... though I could do without the knife and clock just like how Bloodlines was smart enough to say no too.. anybody use these things anyway?... oh, and no more backtracking. I find it kills the repaly big time + it's boring).

Well, I'm not saying all games should be easy either and not that wanting more challenge is a bad thing. I can really like a challenge as well. I was just disagreeing with challenge = superior game design. But it was kind of off-topic, so please carry on. Also, not sure if you were being humble or just snarky with that first sentence.         

[Sinful]

Anyways, I played some XX before bed yesterday (well, earlier today... what am i doing up so early? Oh yeah, gots to hit the gym... too many days playing vanias got me lazy >_>), and I have to say I really wasn't in the mood to play that game + it was really pissing me off. I just wanted to go back to playing easy, beautiful, wonderfull, cover girl Rondo... So I endured the pain of dieing more then I liked (man, I barely took much time off from this and it's kicking my butt so bad already?! + when I die too much I almost always take a break from said game), course I sucked too much to make it to the ruins level because I died and lost the key, which I don't' mind because last time I made it to it I just gave up. Least this way I knew I could beat the game for sure. And eventually did (thank you axes... course when I didn't have 'em due to sucking, I had a harder time). And I'm glad I gave it another playthrough just now after two back to back playthrough of Rondo because I can see what everyones problem is with this one is more... the game doesn't feel like it has near as much polish in many areas all across. Doesn't feel much like an official game. Pretty basic stuff. But it's because it's so much more basic that they were able to nail the tighter design & balance for XX. It feels like a very controlled experiment in comparison to Rondo's "let's toss them all into the cage and see what happens?" + XX didn't have to come up with much new things, like enemies, and maybe just took what they felt would worked best with what they had? (Would really like to see some beta of both these games or any other Konami game to see how they g about polishing a game? Hey, there is that Euro Bloodlines Beta, the one Mr.P's realm described as the official Euro final of Bloodlines, lol. I mean, how could he get this wrong, it's pretty obvious it's unfinished since one entire level section has zero enemies... yay, back to playing Bloodlines again!.. What, gym? >_>;; )

And the other thing nobody seems to be making any comments on is just difficulty alone. XX seems to get harder with each level. Even harder to get the best ending (that ruins level is a pain + I don't see it much either). In Rondo, the difficulty spikes back and forth between all levels, and between all areas of one level (it's not uncommon for me to find the hardest part of a level the start then the middle or end). Yeah, playing through Rondo is still more fun. But XX is still the better designed around difficulty then Rondo. And this is all I'm talking about design AND difficulty. How can there be any possible rebuttal to this with these two games? I don't see it, but if it's there, I'd love to be proven wrong. Being wrong and not knowing it is terrible & learning is fun... well, when the topic is something I love, that is. I don't care which is more fun design wise. I don't. I want you guys to see this other perspective. I want you guys to see that XX is not total design flaw all across the board as everybody makes it seem. Open your eyes, and don't let hate cloud your judgement. Because if I let this happen, I'd never of played Super Castlevania 4 & Rondo enough for them to grow on me, not to mention a ton of other games that are now my biggest favourites. Too many people nowadays make quick assumptions based on first impressions, what they hear from others, and/or let other factor bias other opinions (like this game is too hard and cheap, it must be flawed! Roar!!!! And what's this, poo-e graphics, why it's levels are designed wrong too! Snarl!!!! That's it, I can't recommend this game to anyone. I know what I'm talking about), instead of playing a game enough for themselves and using a clear unbiased mind to figure things out if it's how everybody says it is? (And from experience, most don't have a clue what their talking about game review wise, or otherwise)





Oh, and the backflip in XX is pretty useless to me I just found out, since another tactic I use to avoid the spearmen charge is just jumping back. I compared the two and found out I'm more successfull with jumps... for some reason I can't always pull this move off under pressure yet, as the timing is much tighter... but at least because of this I don't ever pull the move off accidentally like in Rondo (and no, this is not a flaw in Rondo, it's me sucking & not knowing how to play the game good enough.... see, this is one example where a reviewer would jump on to bitch about if the game rubbed him the wrong way. Like that having to go to the very edge to make jumps or poor Ritchie walking too slow. Let's be smarter then this).

Well, I'm not saying all games should be easy either and not that wanting more challenge is a bad thing. I can really like a challenge as well. I was just disagreeing with challenge = superior game design. But it was kind of off-topic, so please carry on. Also, not sure if you were being humble or just snarky with that first sentence.       

Really? You don't think it's harder to design + balance well a harder game then an easier game? I think it is. Especially if you can keep at a hard game for long enough that you can eventually beat it without taking any damage and/or that much trouble (Mario 3 was really hard when I first started playing it, now it's a joke no matter how long of a break I take). Now that's pretty good game design to me (hard, yet possible to perfect... which XX is much more in then Rondo). Setting up a very nice and long learning curve should be the only challenge when making a hard game. Making a hard game that requires too much luck and impossible to do perfect makes it end up more towards the bad game design aspect, in my opinion of course.

With that first sentence I was being stupid. As in I really didn't know (is this mean humble?). Then I replied with a guess... Stupid me also had to look up snarky (though I had a good idea as to what it could mean, I had to make sure). So no, I wasn't being critical, cutting, or testy (you may of answered correct, but I sure wasn't smart enough to figure it out... undertanding & explaining in this language is my weak point).

[Abnormal Freak]

The people who have posted in this thread and have said DXX is very flawed DO NOT belong to a crowd mentality. :p Your posts continually come off as condescending so it's really not enjoyable to try and have a dialog with you.

I've been playing and enjoying DXX for 14 years. I love that game. But I also say it's terribly flawed and sloppily designed. It's hard to describe to you what I mean. You see awesome design, I see platforms and enemy placement that 50% of the time has very little rhyme or reason.

[Dracula9]

Who cares if you don't enjoy Ritchie's walking speed. This is a topic about game balance, not which game you like more. Yes I know most love Rondo over XX by leaps and bounds. No more reminders, please... plus really, both games control very similarly, complain about XX controls is pretty much just like complain about Rondo's controls... I think we should drop Ritchie's controls from this topic, no?

I don't think we should drop them at all. Since you keep bringing to point the non-graphical aspects of the games, I think Richter's control differences are a key aspect against your "DXX is better than Rondo" argument. Granted, everyone's going to have their own opinion, but DXX controls and Rondo controls are more different than they are alike. I'll point out a few I've noticed.

-Richter's backflip. Yes, I'm going back to this again. The reaction time to perform it in DXX is noticably less than in Rondo. The backflip itself is also slower. While it does come in handy in evading Spear Guards and the like, it's superior in Rondo.

-DXX, if I remember correctly, lacks the "double-tap-forward-whip-extenstion" that's in Rondo. While not something that's so terrible it ruins the whole game, it does, for me at least, draw a bit away from DXX's overall appeal. That extension comes in handy in the most simple things, like smacking a raven a second earlier than without, or taking out that goddamned Super Fleaman.

-DXX's enemy placement is cheap, pure and simple. There's also a considerable lack of situationally-unique enemies; the swinger-skeletons(yes I know you can just run past them. That they're there at all will add a change in the normal expectations of skeleons.), the Heavy Armors, which only appear on the Ghost Ship IIRC, the Skeleton Gunmen, which require a tad more thinking to kill, even for something like chucking an axe at them, because of their range and distance, etc., etc. Cheap enemy placement does create its own unique difficulty, I will give you that, but it's a challenge level based on poor production and game design. It doesn't mean as much as enemies that strategcally create an obstruction or otherwise draw the game on a bit more, such as the Skull Heads that appear in the Chapel and try and force you to stay on the platforms.

-DXX's lesser number of hostages. I've mentioned this already, but I'll explain more. You said a few posts back that DXX gave challenge, wit, skill, etc., to locate and rescue them, yet you totally ignored the wit and skill involved in getting the girls in Rondo. For example, the Cemetery rescue, Iris, who requires nothing more than a simple breaking of four blocks. But they need to be broken in a specific order and they may even go unnoticed until the player can't go back for them. It doesn't have to be excessively complicated to be well-executed. There's also Tera in the Mountain Range, who needs a frog enemy to follow you without being killed to a post. Not killing the frog, killing what enemies do show up, and not dying are a simple and working combination. THEN you have to go BACK to get to her. Backtracking works just as well as smacking a pillar in DXX's Atlantean stage, if not more so.

Now, I'll give a few things in Rondo's defense as opposed to DXX's offense;

-Rondo has the option of a second character. You say that DXX has a higher replay value for you, but Rondo having two playable characters provides two totally different ways to play the game, even more than two if you take into account the alternate-level possibilities.

-Rondo has certain little things that DXX doesn't, or did it better than DXX. Take Stage 1's bucket room, for instance. Different, and to get all the items takes a bit of thinking. There's also the Dungeon stage in Rondo and that whole second section with the Ogre guy throwing boulders around. That portion is unique in its own right and doesn't even lead to the boss. A nice perk from the dark, warm dungeon colors. Note that I did not use graphics as a main reason, but as a follow-up to a main reason.

You said that English is hard for you to interpret, what language do you speak normally?


@Abnormal Freak - Don't misunderstand me pointing out DXX's flaws, or some of or all of the others doing so, as us pushing a crowd mentality that DXX sucks. I actually enjoy DXX very much. I just happen to, on a gameplay level, prefer Rondo more. DXX takes that cake for me in stage graphics and certain song tracks. And please don't call our posts condescending just because we're pointing out what we view as flaws in a game.

[The Silverlord]

And the other thing nobody seems to be making any comments on is just difficulty alone.

I'd say XX/Vampire's Kiss has the harder difficulty.

I like the speed of Richter, he feels more solid and there's good 'feedback' in his whip hits.  It’s a really tight and technical undertaking, requiring careful management of hearts/item crushes, and taking utmost care to duck and take hits in the right spots, or you’ll plummet to your doom.

But there is trouble with hit detection and Richter can take a multi-hit barrage if you err with something so simple in killing a bat.  You’re kept on your toes. 

But Rondo is right up there with CV IV in the immersion/design stakes and just for pure enjoyment value.  You can relax a bit more and still try and aim for a good 1LC (1 life clear).

[Sinful]

@ Dracula9;
- I've already said I don't find much use for XX backflip and prefer to use jump instead. So yes, move is useless.
- yes, the extend whip does add more depth (as does a more working backflip)
- yes, XX has way less enemy variety then Rondo. Well of course. Were talking CD massive CD storage VS tiny cart space. But then again, XX don't have as many levels/areas as Rondo either, so less enemies don't look so bad (basically half the areas & half the enemies. This seem about right to me?). Them amour guys in the ship level require skill? Hmm, I did not know that, I thought it just required patience?... Oh no, you mean the guys with guns? I just walk up to or jump at them and hit them. What's so though or deep about that?... I don't think enemy placement in XX is that cheap, but rather strategically placed to pace the game more accordingly. I mean, wow, wasn't that how it was done during the Nintendo days too? Isn't Ninja Gaiden series considered a masterpiece due to same enemy placements? Oh no, wrong again, that game has enough style for people to put up with it's difficult.. er, I mean, cheapness.
- wait, wait, wait, you have to get a frog to save the mountain hostage? Are we talking about Chronicles for PSP too now? That game changed the games balance around quite a bit... I find it harder, plus the 3D look doesn't appeal tome nearly as much as the 2D one. Thus I play the unlocked original & PC-Engine version via emulation. And I don't recall having to have a frog following me? I just went there, then went back... how does figuring out which switch to hit and what order have to do with hero VS enemy balance? It don't, it's part of a puzzle design... let's get back to physical challenge.
- your right, Rondo does provide more replay with two characters. It's just not related to challenge and difficulty design... in fact playing as her tosses most of that out the window... but it's still fun and extra replay. Right on that... Yes, lot's of level variety to keep things fresh too, but it's a different kind of replay, not related more well designed challenge... Look, you want me to say Rondo is more replayable then XX? I will, because so far it does seem pretty fun to come to due to great variety + I can always handicap myslef/aim for goals... But I won't know for sure which one will win in the end? Only time will tell.
- Romanian is my first language (it's a latin language, like french, only with a very different accent... thus it's a backwards language in comparison to english... plus I sometimes like finish things with "no?" )

I'd say XX/Vampire's Kiss has the harder difficulty.

I like the speed of Richter, he feels more solid and there's good 'feedback' in his whip hits.  It's a really tight and technical undertaking, requiring careful management of hearts/item crushes, and taking utmost care to duck and take hits in the right spots, or you'll plummet to your doom.

Yay, I feel much more sane now, thank you Silverlord, thank you very much.

there is trouble with hit detection and Richter can take a multi-hit barrage if you err with something so simple in killing a bat.  You’re kept on your toes. 

Don't forget also that Ritchie in Rondo can also fall victim to multiple hits due to very short invincibility time. So, Rondo is a poorly designed game too by other too then?... YAY!!!

You see awesome design, I see platforms and enemy placement that 50% of the time has very little rhyme or reason.

That's weird, that's how I see Rondo?

[TheouAegis]

I love CV3 for its design and level cohesion (although some stages beg to be questioned). But the Holy Water broke it. Drac was the only boss you couldn't use it on and most enemies couldn't get past it. And if you got the Triple Multiplier, it was way overpowered. But now it's become obsolete and I think that's wrong too. I mean, I like how half the spells in OoE were basically Holy Waters but the damage was low enough to not make them broken.  But I really do miss the long-burning blue flame of holiness.

I read this topic until halfway down page 2 then got bored and posted this.