Topic: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.

[Sinful]

Hey, Richter B, I just noticed my popularity jumped to a knew high just now. From +2 to negative 11. So I don't have to envy you anymore.

But wow, what was I thinking trying to convince Rondo fans that XX has done something better it? There no way I'd ever win a discussion going against the biggest talked about Castlevania games out there, Rondo & SotN. And your were right, you can't be popular liking XX. (should change it to my fav game)

It's too bad really... and it's sad too. Rondo was the first step Castlevania took towards series grave, and SotN closed the casket to the series permanently. Ever since gaming started getting too complicated for it's own good & along with prettier graphics (ie. way more money and time is being spent on game graphics then gameplay these days), people also started not to care about gaming design & balance anymore either. And games presenting any kind of challenge went out the window too. Again, SotN proves this (as well as the mad decline/death of shmups, on top of other examples), as people are more then happy enough with just style over substance + no challenge gaming (I know, I've been there and done that). And it's thanks to the majority of today's gamers and gaming journalists that we're in such a slump. Most gamers don't know better, and journalists only add to the confusion with them themselves not knowing either.ie. "Oh yes, Rondo & SotN are top of their class and set the standard for other Castlevanias to try and match." So yeah, whatever. I tried to explain to you guys some basics about gaming design and balance, or at least get you guys to go at it figuring it out for yourselves, but you guys just don't want to understand it like it makes the games you cherish so dear look bad or something. I mean, I'm baffled that no one understood when I said that if you add too many variables into an experiment, the harder it becomes to keep track of everything. This is all very basic stuff you learn in High School or possibly even earlier? So how come you guys can't add this same logic to videogames too? (ie. add all them superpowers to Alucard, and look at what a mess we have) And I can't get any more basic then this...  Richter B is as smart as I though, because what the heck am I doing trying to convince internet for? It's mission impossible.



So anyways, Richter B, I loved what you wrote for your XX playthrough. Made me go back and to make sure I get to that underground shrine type level. Failed twice, lol... the first time I just beat the game anyways. But the second time I failed (because I tried to time and hit them bone guys and skeletons above me through the wall as you did, but couldn't get the timing right) I restarted and finally succeeded (by just going through the level as normal). And when I got to that level, I finally made it to the boss this time... only to give up on him, lol. Besides, I already beat the game... About this level, it not only looks really good + reminds me of Castlevania 3 in that section before the boss, but man, is this level ever really well designed. It was also nice to see them fish men guys being used very well for once in a Castlevania game too.


Well, time to go talk about some other stuff related to Castlevania or not...

[VladCT]

Honestly, I think the reason why your rep took a big hit is because a lot of your posts come off as rude and obnoxious while having a tinge of arrogance.
To put it bluntly, it's not that they hate DXX with a burning passion, it's just that you're annoying.

[The Silverlord]

I think that prison/cave level (stage 4) always stood out for me in Dracula X.
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/Castlevania-DraculaX-Stage4.png

It appears to be very good graphically in terms of its large detailed tile sets; a well-hewn rocky floor and stalactite-festooned ceiling framing a background of some prison cells.  Are we down in Dracula’s larder?  First impressions are: this is quite good.  You can quibble that it’s too bright for a cave (and has an entirely different feel to the likes of the Castlevania IV caves), and that the place should look more bleak in general.  But taken on its own merits—and the game’s comic-book, anime-like presentation—it’s quite interesting.  If you’re going to rescue Marie or Annette then this is the place, surely?

However, as you continue, it reveals itself to have one of the worst map designs in terms of flow and progression, and it practically shatters any immersion in the level itself.  Now, platform and enemy-wise it’s not too shabby at all.  Skeletons are in the right place, lobbing bones down at you.  A red knight causes consternation as you jump down to a lower platform, bats and fleamen infuriate, and vigilance is required as ghosts materialise throughout the tricky vertical section.  Level design in terms of platforms and enemies is good, and let’s be fair and honest there, there’s a good bit of challenge.  No problem.

But look at the overall sense of flow and progression in the stage.

At the start, you’ll go up stairs and just simply appear in the next section.  Where’d that staircase go?  When you arrive in the next section, there’s a wall appeared behind you.  It happens again later, and then again at the final boss you’ll simply begin in the minotaur’s arena.  The level is not seamless in its transition, it does not connect former locale to next, and you wonder what’s coming next.  You begin to focus on the programming elements more, why they did that, you look more at the walls themselves (in disbelief), the backgrounds and colours of level.  Instead of focussing on Richter’s plight, you find yourself looking beyond at the game itself.  And hence, those beautifully elaborate tile sets become almost redundant because I'm questioning the layout of level.

Now, that may sound like bollocks.  Maybe it’s just me.  But had Richter been ‘auto-walked’ into the new sections, or seen climbing those stairs into the next area, I don’t think there would have been so much of an issue.  It’s not to say the other design elements of the stage are poor, they’re actually good, but overall the level suffers for the lack of transitions.  It’s a small thing but has such as effect on player immersion.

DraculaXX has the challenge, no question, it even has feel/style, but it just doesn’t feel like a well-rounded product.  It's the small things.

[Puwexil]

Sinful, the pervading issue here isn't really an uncompromisable "us vs. them" scenario, which you seem to have convinced yourself is what's taking place. There might be fundamental differences in thinking and opinion between the people here about the subject, but putting on airs of condescending superiority and eye-rolling dismissal at every turn isn't really making a case for people to take what you say seriously, and it puts a damper on even considering continuing any kind of constructive dialogue with you. Talking about video games doesn't have to be such a scathingly personal experience.

[The Silverlord]

people are more then happy enough with just style over substance + no challenge gaming

Get yourself an Xbox360 and download Trials Evolution, or play Geometry Wars 2.  Simple and brilliant challenging gaming for the modern age.  I thought I was good at games until I tried Trials.

Also, go play the likes of PC-Engine Salamander or SNES Parodius and try and re-evaluate the style over substance stance a little.  Soften up!  These two flow with pure Konami perfection.  All things need not be Gradius IV loop 3 level of hardness!

[VladCT]

Get yourself an Xbox360 and download Trials Evolution, or play Geometry Wars 2.  Simple and brilliant challenging gaming for the modern age.  I thought I was good at games until I tried Trials.

Don't forget Dark Souls if you want an example of extreme difficulty without actually being unfair.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

As The Silverlord said (and quite beautifully, too), it's the little things.
Had there been an open wall instead of a closed wall.
Had there been some kind of stair indicator or door in the background.
Etc. etc.

I love DraculaXX but I cannot help but feel that at times it feels like it needs polish.
For the record, one of the things I love about the game are its backgrounds and color sets.

[Sumac]

As far as I can say (since it was quite a time since I played ROB and CVDX) I liked CVDX level design more than in ROB. It was more interesting and challenging.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

I think I can agree with that to some respect.
I'm also more fond of the DraculaXX Clocktower.  Interestingly enough, the Clocktower seems to be opposite the castle, much like in Castlevania III (even though that game has two clocktowers).

I think in general the game has lots of stuff taken from CVIII.  It's quirky in that way.
The stage where you fight the werewolf (Stage 5), at its beginning, has the same layout as Castlevania III's Block 9, complete with the hunchbacks and tower.

[Sinful]

i wish dxx was more like cv1

It is. Where do you think XX got that idea to activate that bat from a jump only? Remember that? You complained about it in XX... There also seems to be quite a few scenes lifted from Castlevania 1 in XX too. Add that the controls are pretty much C1 too outside of some control in your jumps,  item crush and backflip move. And it's a wonder as to why you would ask such a question? The only reason I could think of is that you would want XX to be harder, or cheaper as so many put it, as to match Castlevania 1 more? But this doesn't make sense either?




But anywho, I just played through Castlevania Rebirth on Hard, and also noticed something else in the options for "Original" and "Normal." Well, I quickly figured this one out, and man, am I glad this option was thought of. What this option does is give you control of jumps (Normal) or not just like the NES Castlevania game (Original). So this should please fans of both jump types... in regards to my playthrough on hard? Well, I got owned big time. I didn't even reach the level one boss. >_>:: (Richter B hears this, he'll hang his head in shame at me)


I'm also glad Rebirth kept things very simple control wise. Maybe this is why they nailed the design and difficulty balance so well for this Rebirth game in comparison to the others? I mean, Contra's controls are much more complex with an insane amount of firepower aimable in every direction. For this type of game getting the design and balance right is much harder. So it's no surprise to me that they didn't quite nail the Contra series feel with that Rebirth game.

[thernz]

But they don't.
Castlevania: Stage 2

[Flame]

It is. Where do you think XX got that idea to activate that bat from a jump only? Remember that?

You're kidding right?

[Sinful]

You're kidding right?

But I'm not. I played Castlevania yesterday (which is a very rare occurrence... still trying to warm up to this one), and I came across a bat (that's right, one bat. Just like how in XX not all bats activate by jumps) that would not activate even though I was practically underneath him and almost touching him. Then I remembered a post here in regards to this happening in XX. So I backed away a tad, turned around, jumped, watched him activate, and whipped him (just like I easily did the same to that one bat in XX)... So I don't know what to say about that, other the fact that I was right in assuming that some of you guys are only going out of your ways to find faults in XX, yet blind to the fact that other Castlevania games that do the same thing (this is not very wrong to assume. It happens all the time in every category of life). I mean come on, people say XX is cheap, then what are the NES Castlevania games? To me these are much harder games, thus I assume cheaper too? (I really don't fully get what you guys find cheap about XX that I've not seen in other Castlevania game. So you guys want to take offense, whatever, be my guests)

Well, it shouldn't be too hard to spot this bat, since I never made it past Frankenstein (only made it to him twice... shows how much I played this game... yup. Twice... it's too hard, er, I mean cheap... not enough style for my taste either... but I'm sure to warm up to it sooner or later? After all, it's a Castlevania game in the same vein as XX & all others I love, so why not?)

[Sinful]

Yes!! I did it!!! I beat Frankenstein in Castlevania 1!!

Took me a few tries to get there with triple holy water, but when I finally did, I died ... but then I tried again, and succeeded!

The part I died the most at was the underground section. Because I was being a perfectionist here and wanted to make sure I got at least all the big heart candles & take no damage (so something went wrong and I committed suicide). But man, there seems to be so many tinny random parts happening in NES Castlevania that really help keep you on your toes and never a dull day (such a simple game, yet still so deep. Got to love it) + in combination with my mind drifting off after a couple of failures in a row every now and then, and there you go. I was stuck there for awhile.

But thinking about my last bout with Frankenstein yesterday, I really couldn't see why I wouldn't have been able to muscle my way through with a full health bar? But good luck with that with them two Dragon Bones before the boss... actually I hadn't even bothered to see how easy it would of been to develop a pattern for them Dragon Bones and Frankenstein + his little buddy... but I never ever tried the triple holy water trick on any boss before, and after reading about it so much, I just had to try it myself. Guess I'll try passing Frankenstein without the holy water next?...



And has anybody found that jump activated bat yet? Here's a clue, it's in level 2 and it's pretty obvious/can't be missed. In fact, you have to jump to proceed to get any further too.

[The Silverlord]

Good job Sinful.  Frankenstein's monster and Igor are tough to beat!  I always tend to end up with the dagger, but it's a good skirmish.  Igor is a devil.

And Castlevania 1 is tough.  Hardest parts I always thought were top of Stage 3 (sub-stage 9) with those damnable crows and bone pillars hurling fire at you, followed by a tricky Mummy fight where I always end up whipping furiously like a madman to just get them before they get you.  No tactics, just balls-to-the-wall button tapping.

Stage 6 (sub-stage 17) clock tower with the fleamen is also a nightmare.  That's just: get out . . . get out of there as quickly as possible!