Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [ID] Topic: Comic Books  (Read 8163 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Weiss Belmont

  • The Power of Legend
  • Forgotten One
  • Hunter in Training
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Gender: Male
  • Only at the Castle Gate...
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (PS1/SS)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2013, 11:44:42 PM »
0
Not sure what you mean by "I'm a mark" as in a target? I didn't say if DC doesn't keep things the same I'm going to rage though, just that I'll cease to really care about the character because it's so OC it's only the same one in name only. (The quote you're directly replying to was also an observational joke.) If you think your opinion is the only one that matters that's fine, but that doesn't prove your argument is logically sound. Taking thinly veiled digs at and outright insulting me doesn't prove your argument either.

Lol wat, the moral superiority doesn't make a difference? It's an integral part of his character, and it's what makes him a hero instead of a villain. It's pretty clearly important.
 

Yes yes, I read all of those stories here http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Chronicles-Vol-Bill-Finger/dp/1401204457/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357451083&sr=8-1&keywords=batman+chronicles I've read most of these, still need to get volume 10 tho. Back when Batman was a generic pulp hero/"The Shadow"/The Spider ripoff for about a year before Robin came in, he did kill a few criminals. One he tipped over into a vat of acid during a fight, he also killed some men who had been mutated into monsters in his plane. But if you'll read this book http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Complete-History-Daniels/dp/B000A1ETTC/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357451246&sr=1-1&keywords=batman+the+complete+history you'll see that shortly after the latter case, DC instituted a rule that heroes couldn't kill villains. This policy is one of the things which kept DC in the clear during the 1950s comic book witch hunt, because it was something they could point to to show their comics weren't turning kids into murderers.
 

Really? I don't remember this happening, can you cite which issues this happened in? I might be mistaken but I just don't remember that.

Batman was more inspired by Zorro but yes I'm aware of many of the masked pulp heroes who were around at the time. James Gordon was a police commissioner/vigilante hero for example. http://www.adventurehouse.com/contents/en-us/d160.html It's awfully strange that they didn't change his name if they were really worried about getting sued. Seems more likely that DC would just say Batman was naturally inspired by Superman, since they used the claim to having the first real "superhero" as a way to sue a better-selling competitor out of business not long after by claiming Captain Marvel was infringing on Superman.

Already addressed this both in my previous post (which you somehow called "irrelevant" to his character) and in this one.
Since all of the rest of your post is just you insulting me and claiming that I must know nothing about the character, despite a lack of actual proof** because I disagree with you, I see no reason to respond to the rest of it or to you again. The only thing I don't get is if you really think your opinion is the only one that matters, why you're on a board to hear other's opinions in the first place? Or do you just like to hear yourself talk (metaphorically speaking) and no one followed your blog? That's not an insult I'm just genuinely curious as to the thought process there.

*Like not noting how I said he got along about as fine as he ever had post grim/gritty reboot, which means yeah shitty as compared to the pre-Death in the Family days. But I didn't say it didn't change anything about his character, just that there wasn't anything showing the necessity of Batman Inc. or of changing Batman's character in such fundamental ways.

Addressed this above. If you want to read the earlier Batman stories though you really should check out that volume of the Batman Chronicles, it's only about $10 and I think you'll really dig it.

Oh yeah the archive editions, I remember getting some of them through inter-library loan, great stuff. Too bad they're so expensive though. The New Teen Titans now actually has a couple of giant hardback omnibuses you can buy that would be cheaper than the archive editions. But still might be less expensive to get copies of the original comics, since the Wolfman/Perez era Teen Titans sold very well.

PS- I remember there was one time Batman pushed a giant Buddha statue onto a bunch of chinese thugs/drug smugglers to, that was pretty messed up. Especially how it shows a random Chinese woman telling her daughter they should thank Batman for ridding them of this menace at the end lol. But then this was the era of the racist "Yellow Peril" (earlier issues of Detective Comics actually featured Fu-Manchu himself) so what can you expect.


Thank you. The sheer fact that you've both denied actual events in the comics and the fact that you've chosen to make things up and pretend your imagination is canon simply proves my point.

1) You argue Batman never killed anyone. People point out comics in which he did. Yet you claim that things we've actually seen in the comics never happened.

2) You think Batman's morality actually serves Gotham city and the DC universe when it actuality it hasn't done much. But you seem to think that the rampant super villains in DC are all nice guys right. In fact there are no super villains because Batman's morality has eliminated all evil doing. Right.

3) You don't even know who The Shadow is.  :-\ That's just shameful.

4) You think that Batman as a character has never changed from 1939 to 2012.

Amazing. Simply amazing. I have some magic beans. Would you care to buy them?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 11:53:12 PM by Weiss Belmont »

Offline Ratty

  • A Little Pile of Secrets
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1850
  • Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.
  • Awards The Retro Gamer: Has a heated passion for the oldschool VG Titles. The Great Defender will always defend the object of his or her fandom.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Other (?)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2013, 12:49:42 AM »
0

Thank you. The sheer fact that you've both denied actual events in the comics and the fact that you've chosen to make things up and pretend your imagination is canon simply proves my point.

1) You argue Batman never killed anyone. People point out comics in which he did. Yet you claim that things we've actually seen in the comics never happened.

I freely admit I forgot about those early stories. But their canonicity and value, considering how briefly it was a part of Batman's history, is debatable. Your accusation that I just made stuff up is a straight lie, though not the first or last you've made at/against me in this thread for some reason.

But you seem to think that the rampant super villains in DC are all nice guys right. In fact there are no super villains because Batman's morality has eliminated all evil doing. Right.

Uh I never claimed this?

3) You don't even know who The Shadow is.  :-\ That's just shameful.

I just said I know who the Shadow is, "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!" had a long line of pulp novels and Orson "Citizen Kane" Welles played him on the radio for a time, good character as pulp heroes go. And an oft-imitated one.

4) You think that Batman as a character has never changed from 1939 to 2012.
No I just think some things that are essential to the character. *shrugs* We differ in our opinions on where the elasticity of what defines Batman breaks. I think his moral code and individuality is a strong part of that. But I'm not going to sit here gnashing my teeth or insulting people who disagree with me, Batman joins the many things I don't enjoy the modern incarnations of, but there's already been more stuff written about the Bat-family in the last century than I could hope to read in a single lifetime, so I can always just go wallow in the retro stuff when I feel I need a Batman fix.

Amazing. Simply amazing. I have some magic beans. Would you care to buy them?

ITT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Though actually I didn't come here for a round of one-uppmanship with someone I've never spoken to or to be insulted to my face, but to have a pleasant conversation about sequential media with other people who enjoy it. So can we end this pointless pissing contest and get back to the topic please?

On that note.
Robin came along because batman was considered too "dark" at time right?

but hey look at the good side at least we got knightwing.
Eh that's kind of a misconception. Bob Chipman explains it better than I could.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdGk9omUeJ8 (Wonder why youtube isn't embedding now? Oh well.)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 05:48:58 AM by Ratty »

Offline Abnormal Freak

  • luvz Elizabeth B.
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 7245
  • Gender: Male
  • Swanktastic
  • Awards The Pervert: Sneaks in any and all innuendo into threads that he/she can. ICVD Denizen: Those that dwell in the corrupted, mirror image of The Dungeon. The Music Fanatic: Listens to a large collection of music, posts lyrics, etc. SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days.
    • Swankster's Backloggery
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania (NES/etc)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2013, 05:29:48 AM »
0
The main reason for Robin's creation, to my knowledge, was Bill Finger was getting tired of writing Batman's thought bubble exposition and figured it would be more fun for him to have a character to talk to instead.

The earliest issues really weren't dark, in fact they're quite corny, but once Robin was introduced, Batman didn't look quite so menacing and I don't think he killed anymore.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 05:40:35 AM by Abnormal Freak »
Oh yeah, and also:
meat

Soda as well.

Offline A-Yty

  • Your beloved monster
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 5210
  • Gender: Male
  • Floating Catacomb janitor
  • Awards SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days. The Great Defender will always defend the object of his or her fandom. Master Debater: Gracefully argues 'til the cows come home about topics. The Retro Gamer: Has a heated passion for the oldschool VG Titles. Permanent Resident: Seems to always be around to post/reply.
    • Linnavaanijat
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2013, 07:36:23 AM »
0
He carried a gun for defense in the very first comics and also breaks a guy's neck by swing-kicking it. Those first few issues he kills quite a few criminals, actually.

Then Robin came along and pussified the whole show.

Robin came along because they needed someone to balance the brooding of Batman. To please the younger audiences. He had nothing to do with the "no kill" rule, seeing as how Robin was in the first issue and Batman killed long after that.


Offline Nail_Bombed

  • Indra's Fire
  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
  • Gender: Male
  • What A Horrible Night To Have A Carlsberg
  • Awards Permanent Resident: Seems to always be around to post/reply.
    • Metal Ireland
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (PS1/SS)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2013, 09:28:14 AM »
0
So, what with all this talk about Batman, how do people feel about the way Frank Miller handled him after TDKReturns? As in All Star Batman And Robin? Do you feel that FM was just completely extracting the urine at this point? It's one of those comic arcs that reveled in it's own awfulness, IMO. Couldn't be seen as anything more than a piss-take on Batman's character - the start of THE GODDAMN BATMAN.





Of course, I reckon this was exactly what FM wanted to get across, but I haven't read a huge amount of his other stuff apart from his Dark Knight books and Sin City.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 09:30:15 AM by Nail_Bombed »
If a man chooses, and a slave obeys, then what are you if you choose to obey?


Offline A-Yty

  • Your beloved monster
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 5210
  • Gender: Male
  • Floating Catacomb janitor
  • Awards SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days. The Great Defender will always defend the object of his or her fandom. Master Debater: Gracefully argues 'til the cows come home about topics. The Retro Gamer: Has a heated passion for the oldschool VG Titles. Permanent Resident: Seems to always be around to post/reply.
    • Linnavaanijat
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2013, 10:04:47 AM »
0
All Star Batman and Robin was a waste of beautiful artwork. The script is just terrible. Best way to enjoy the story would be publish it with empty bubbles and let people write their own version. It has its memetic, over-the-top camp value, but that's about all I can think of. If it were anyone else than Miller who wrote it, I would entertain the thought of it as some sort of ingenious snark at the publisher or something like that. But he's really wacky, so as far as I know, he might be dead serious.

It's easy to get absorbed discussing Batman. I'll try doing my part not to let him overshadow the topic.


Offline Weiss Belmont

  • The Power of Legend
  • Forgotten One
  • Hunter in Training
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Gender: Male
  • Only at the Castle Gate...
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (PS1/SS)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2013, 04:03:47 PM »
0
So, what with all this talk about Batman, how do people feel about the way Frank Miller handled him after TDKReturns? As in All Star Batman And Robin? Do you feel that FM was just completely extracting the urine at this point? It's one of those comic arcs that reveled in it's own awfulness, IMO. Couldn't be seen as anything more than a piss-take on Batman's character - the start of THE GODDAMN BATMAN.

I completely agree with that. I've never been a fan of anything Frank Miller wrote. Sin City, The Spirit, and of course his take on Batman were all equally nauseating to me. Frank Miller is the Quentin Tarantino of comic books meaning that his stories are poorly written, his characters are flat, and his perception of art is to be as flamboyant as possible.

Offline Abnormal Freak

  • luvz Elizabeth B.
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 7245
  • Gender: Male
  • Swanktastic
  • Awards The Pervert: Sneaks in any and all innuendo into threads that he/she can. ICVD Denizen: Those that dwell in the corrupted, mirror image of The Dungeon. The Music Fanatic: Listens to a large collection of music, posts lyrics, etc. SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days.
    • Swankster's Backloggery
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania (NES/etc)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2013, 09:04:59 PM »
0
Robin came along because they needed someone to balance the brooding of Batman. To please the younger audiences. He had nothing to do with the "no kill" rule, seeing as how Robin was in the first issue and Batman killed long after that.

I'm not sure what "brooding" characteristics of Batman you're talking about. While eventually the death of his parents was established, it didn't serve much beyond a reason for why Batman came to be; he didn't have inner dialogs about his pain and he wasn't a particularly dark character. Robin also didn't appear until 11 months after Batman; he may have been in the first issue of Batman proper (which was a quarter-annual book I believe that originally acted as a collection of new Batman short stories like the ones in Detective Comics), but the Bman had a year of solo adventures prior to his introduction.

Wouldn't you know, Bman gets a guy killed in the DC issue right before Robin is introduced and he doesn't kill anymore in the Kane-drawn issues (far as I know), while also developing a countenance that's more warm and fatherly. So yeah, there is an interesting correlation between the introduction of Robin and a lighter Batman.

Finger got tired of writing exposition where Batman talks to himself and wanted someone for him to talk to. That's the most reasonable explanation for Robin's creation that I've heard, besides DC wanting to attract more young boy readers and bettering their sales. (A lot of adults read these comics as throwaway dime pulp stories.)
Oh yeah, and also:
meat

Soda as well.

Offline Ratty

  • A Little Pile of Secrets
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1850
  • Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.
  • Awards The Retro Gamer: Has a heated passion for the oldschool VG Titles. The Great Defender will always defend the object of his or her fandom.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Other (?)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2013, 01:26:22 AM »
0
So, what with all this talk about Batman, how do people feel about the way Frank Miller handled him after TDKReturns? As in All Star Batman And Robin? Do you feel that FM was just completely extracting the urine at this point? It's one of those comic arcs that reveled in it's own awfulness, IMO. Couldn't be seen as anything more than a piss-take on Batman's character - the start of THE GODDAMN BATMAN.





Of course, I reckon this was exactly what FM wanted to get across, but I haven't read a huge amount of his other stuff apart from his Dark Knight books and Sin City.

The Dark Knight Returns and Year One were great, but I think in the intervening time Miller has forgotten whether he's (at least partly) parodying the fascist ultra machismo or completely serious. The book he wrote about Batman fighting Islamic terrorists called "Holy Terror Batman!", which he published with a captain ersatz in place of his Batman when DC didn't want to do it, is proof enough of that. As if the godawful messes of TDK Strikes Again and AS:B&R weren't enough.
DC picked absolutely the wrong guy for their Marvel Ultimate universe ripoff when it comes to Batman, but at least All Star Superman was good by all accounts. I mentioned HUSH earlier and if you like Jim Lee's art in All Star Batman you should definitely check it out. His beautiful artwork in a Batman story that not only doesn't suck, but is actually pretty great.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 01:36:00 AM by Ratty »

Offline Abnormal Freak

  • luvz Elizabeth B.
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 7245
  • Gender: Male
  • Swanktastic
  • Awards The Pervert: Sneaks in any and all innuendo into threads that he/she can. ICVD Denizen: Those that dwell in the corrupted, mirror image of The Dungeon. The Music Fanatic: Listens to a large collection of music, posts lyrics, etc. SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days.
    • Swankster's Backloggery
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania (NES/etc)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2013, 01:46:04 AM »
0
I love Holy Terror (and everything Miller's done for that matter--one can't not give respect to the guy who did Ronin unless one is a complete dolt). It's so unabashedly un-PC and Miller's intent was to mimic WWII propaganda, and I think it works wonderfully. Whether DC's idea or Miller's, it was a good choice not to make it a Batman story; it's just too bad you can't read the first quarter or so of the book without seeing Batman, Catwoman, and Gordon.

All-Star Batman & Robin, the Boy Wonder is my least favorite of his work and definitely feels more like a parody of his work than genuine, but I kinda see where he was going with it and why Bman's such an asshole. Either way I wanna see it finished.

Jim Lee's certainly no slouch, but his work still fits in a pretty standard model of American comic book art. Miller on the other hand pours his damn soul out with his inks and breaks moulds. I've got a huge amount of respect for his talent even now--The Dark Knight Strikes Again was so avant-garde and beautiful. I'll take that over the norm no matter how glossy.
Oh yeah, and also:
meat

Soda as well.

Offline Abnormal Freak

  • luvz Elizabeth B.
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 7245
  • Gender: Male
  • Swanktastic
  • Awards The Pervert: Sneaks in any and all innuendo into threads that he/she can. ICVD Denizen: Those that dwell in the corrupted, mirror image of The Dungeon. The Music Fanatic: Listens to a large collection of music, posts lyrics, etc. SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days.
    • Swankster's Backloggery
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania (NES/etc)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2013, 03:16:06 AM »
0
By the way, being that he's a hot topic, y'all read Year 100? Hipster Batman to the max and I couldn't make a lick of sense of it, but I had a lotta fun reading that book. Cool art.
Oh yeah, and also:
meat

Soda as well.

Offline Ratty

  • A Little Pile of Secrets
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1850
  • Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.
  • Awards The Retro Gamer: Has a heated passion for the oldschool VG Titles. The Great Defender will always defend the object of his or her fandom.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Other (?)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2013, 05:52:57 AM »
0
I love Holy Terror (and everything Miller's done for that matter--one can't not give respect to the guy who did Ronin unless one is a complete dolt).

Oh I don't know, were Laird and Eastmen respecting it when they made their little parody? ;P
He's done great work in the past, but he's like Alan Moore in that he started out already kind of crazy and only seems to get nuttier as time passes.

I heard about Batman Year 100 and thought the premise sounded really bad, then flipped through it in the store and saw the execution appeared to be equally bad, so never bothered with it after that.
---------------------------------------------------
On subjects unrelated to Batman, this is probably the single worst comic story I read all last year.
http://sanctumsanctorumcomix.blogspot.com/2009/04/clea-loves-sex-3rd-input-its-all-about.html
Doctor Strange and his girlfriend from another deminsion travel back in time* and his girlfriend cheats on him with Benjamin Franklin, yes, that Benjamin Franklin.
Or maybe it's a wizard pretending to be Benjamin Franklin, it's not entirely clear. Somehow that's almost worse.

*This was around 1976 when everyone in America had "bicentennial fever" "200 years woo! U.S.A, U.S.A!"
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 06:06:36 AM by Ratty »

Offline Weiss Belmont

  • The Power of Legend
  • Forgotten One
  • Hunter in Training
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Gender: Male
  • Only at the Castle Gate...
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (PS1/SS)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2013, 08:22:20 AM »
0
He's done great work in the past, but he's like Alan Moore in that he started out already kind of crazy and only seems to get nuttier as time passes.

THIS!!!^ I won't deny that maybe 20 years ago Frank Miller was a name to give a crap about but nowadays he has all the appeal of someones grandpa trying to stay relevant in an era that has no need of his old stories. Not only has story-telling evolved beyond Millerism but his attempts to make his characters have depth are worn and ineffective.

Offline Abnormal Freak

  • luvz Elizabeth B.
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 7245
  • Gender: Male
  • Swanktastic
  • Awards The Pervert: Sneaks in any and all innuendo into threads that he/she can. ICVD Denizen: Those that dwell in the corrupted, mirror image of The Dungeon. The Music Fanatic: Listens to a large collection of music, posts lyrics, etc. SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days.
    • Swankster's Backloggery
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania (NES/etc)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2013, 11:38:54 AM »
0
Oh I don't know, were Laird and Eastmen respecting it when they made their little parody? ;P

Yes, actually. :) Eastman is a big Miller nut.
Oh yeah, and also:
meat

Soda as well.

Offline Ratty

  • A Little Pile of Secrets
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1850
  • Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.
  • Awards The Retro Gamer: Has a heated passion for the oldschool VG Titles. The Great Defender will always defend the object of his or her fandom.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Other (?)
  • Likes:
Re: Comic Books
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2013, 03:17:32 PM »
0
Yes, actually. :) Eastman is a big Miller nut.

Cool. Haven't actually read Ronin but it must be pretty good since it's one of the things that first brought him to prominence iirc. Not too surprising to hear Eastman loves Miller's work considering he owns and oversees "Heavy Metal" magazine now doesn't he? Both that and his TMNT co-creation bespeaks a love for the kind of big flamboyant style to characters and storytelling Miller advocates.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 03:22:46 PM by Ratty »

Tags:
 

anything