Topic: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches

[Gunlord]

Sorry guys, I still look exactly like this:

ennui 2 - なんだか退屈2

That said, Jorgey-sama, while it would take a while for me to respond to the rest of your post, I have to disagree with this:

I have always thought of the videogame people as... 'better' than the rest of the populace.  The geeks, if you will, should have a higher level of intellect than the jocks (if we're going by my 80's high school metaphor).

It would be nice if this were true, considering we're gamers ourselves, but even since the 'early days' of gaming, when it was just a 'geek' thing rather than mainstream, I doubt we were ever morally superior in any meaningful sense. Intellectually superior? *Maybe,* since, as you said, computer gaming might attract a more cerebral sort of people. On the other hand, there's no reason "jocks" wouldn't appreciate sports games or action games either, remember. However, in moral terms, well, there's always been an ugly underbelly to the gaming scene, and misogyny has been just one part of it.

For instance, gamers have fought over the silliest things, with fervor matching that of religious or political partisans--I remember a friendship in elementary school foundering because I liked the SNES while he liked the Genesis. Misogyny *and* cultural insensitivity have often gone hand in hand in the olden days as well; "Custer's Revenge," which, as I'm sure most of you have heard of by now, was a porn game for the Atari (!!!) where you played General Custer raping a Native American woman. Needless to say, my own experiences in various video game fandoms have not convinced me we are superior to anyone else. Again, as I'm sure a few of you know, there have been some very weird people in the Fire Emblem fandom ("Tedius Zanarukando" hasn't been seen for years but he remains an in-joke with some of my friends to this day). Heck, I love you guys at the CVD and other CV forums dearly (as I hope you know, prunyuu~) but from what I understand of this forum's history, we've had lots of dramu and stuff over the years as well.

Thus, given how gamers truly aren't much better than the population at large, at least morally or culturally, it doesn't surprise me that the "gaming community" would still hold many 'misogynistic' views, at least if you perceive such views as wrong or deleterious.

[Dark Nemesis]

Sorry guys, I still look exactly like this:

ennui 2 - なんだか退屈2

No you don't, you are just teasing with us and our brain, but it want affect me.......(entering into deep yoga meditation)

[X]

No you don't, you are just teasing with us and our brain, but it want affect me.......(entering into deep yoga meditation)

admit it, Gunlord broke you.

"Who's a cute kitty? You are, yes you are." 

[Lelygax]

LIES, that is Gunlord's real appearence:


Just look at Gunlord sig and you will know that this is the truth.

[Kale]

I don't agree with most of what the guy in Ratty's posted video says, because he seems to be missing the point.
Comically, most people who have a beef with this woman's video are also missing the point.

I think you miss the point of the video, and people like me, who do have a beef with her video. The point is, if you are going to claim research, and defend your claim, you shouldn't be doing such a half ass job, or ignoring part of the game to push your agenda.

Of course there are objectifying of women in games, there are objectifying of men in games. I bet, for sure, EVERYONE does it subconsciously, if not consciously. They do so by judging looks, what they have to bring to the table in a relationship (of any kind, not just between a man and a woman, love, etc.)

The video Ratty puts up does bring up stuff from what the tropes lady did not bother to bring in. Not even an acknowledgement to refute. She clearly panders to those like her, and tries to stir conversation with stupidity. She succeeded. Even if, it's not on the actual subject, but more on how she sucks at what she seems to esteems herself on.

"Plotlines that empower women don't sell as many units" -make the games anyway.  This is where indie game development can evolve the medium.  Big companies care mostly about the bottom line so it is unlikely that they will pioneer this, but I have hopes that smaller studios will invest in things that will further the medium.

No. I don't get this at all. People will make games because of one of two reasons. To make money, and to make it because they want to. The vid Ratty put up also has this in the video, where he brings up the fact that if she wants more games to uproot feminist games for the public, do so by example. Make the game, and get a base to market to. That will draw more attention to it and bring more people to make games for it.

How do you think game genre's has avid fans for them? There was a game that showed them how good it could be. Castlevania, it was a mix of myths and people liked it. The games were fun, and attracted us to sites like this one.

And the trope lady also talks about women being the weaker sex... They are, it's been proven by science. So it's not a myth, and she just flat out lies. Sure, a woman can be extremely strong and beat up most men. I have ZERO doubt of that. Why? American Gladiators. Some of the women on there, would utterly destroy me, as well as most men. But they won't beat a guy who's trained himself the same as the woman.


EDIT: HAHAHA, I didn't know that cat had another vid. So hilarious.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Quote from: Kale on Today at 11:36:52 PM

I think you miss the point of the video, and people like me, who do have a beef with her video. The point is, if you are going to claim research, and defend your claim, you shouldn't be doing such a half ass job, or ignoring part of the game to push your agenda.

I can agree with that.  However, she has succeeded in that she has us talking about it, even if there were more than a few parts of the video which show some lack of objectivity on her behalf.
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Of course there are objectifying of women in games, there are objectifying of men in games. I bet, for sure, EVERYONE does it subconsciously, if not consciously. They do so by judging looks, what they have to bring to the table in a relationship (of any kind, not just between a man and a woman, love, etc.)

It should be better.  And it happens far more with women than with men because it's easy.
Quote

The video Ratty puts up does bring up stuff from what the tropes lady did not bother to bring in. Not even an acknowledgement to refute. She clearly panders to those like her, and tries to stir conversation with stupidity. She succeeded. Even if, it's not on the actual subject, but more on how she sucks at what she seems to esteems herself on.

As I said, I disagree with MOST of what that guy said.  The few things he said that I agree with is that she's pandering.  But at least there's now an 8-page thread talking about this.  Talking is how we get better.  So whether you agree or disagree with what she or he have to say, the fact that we're having a dialogue is a good thing.
Quote

No. I don't get this at all. People will make games because of one of two reasons. To make money, and to make it because they want to. The vid Ratty put up also has this in the video, where he brings up the fact that if she wants more games to uproot feminist games for the public, do so by example. Make the game, and get a base to market to. That will draw more attention to it and bring more people to make games for it.

I'm not sure she's a game programmer.  However, if she gets enough funding, she could hire a small indie game company to do just that.  So I hope she keeps getting funding, then.
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And the trope lady also talks about women being the weaker sex... They are, it's been proven by science. So it's not a myth, and she just flat out lies. Sure, a woman can be extremely strong and beat up most men. I have ZERO doubt of that. Why? American Gladiators. Some of the women on there, would utterly destroy me, as well as most men. But they won't beat a guy who's trained himself the same as the woman.

Where's that bingo chart again?  Ah yes... B5.
I don't think a woman in the real world has any bearing on what a woman in the videogame world can or cannot do.  In the videogame land of superhuman feats, magic and stats, breaking the norm should not be a problem.  So... moot point?

[Kale]

Where's that bingo chart again?  Ah yes... B5.
I don't think a woman in the real world has any bearing on what a woman in the videogame world can or cannot do.  In the videogame land of superhuman feats, magic and stats, breaking the norm should not be a problem.  So... moot point?

Moot paint, it may be, but she was the first one to bring it up. Much like in trials, you shouldn't be able to bring up a point then discard it right after. It just makes that point invalid, and the person seem stupid. I only brought it up because of that. Not that I personally care if it did or not, though I do like realism in games (to a point, the physical weakness is usually not one I would care to be in a video game.)

What irks me, and a lot mind you, is that this woman actually managed to get funding for being so ill informed, and with doing such poor research. I just think it's retarded.

She should've used the money she gained in her kick starter to make a game, rather than use it on whatever it is she used it on. Because she obviously didn't use much to make the videos or research for it.

As I said, I disagree with MOST of what that guy said.  The few things he said that I agree with is that she's pandering.  But at least there's now an 8-page thread talking about this.  Talking is how we get better.  So whether you agree or disagree with what she or he have to say, the fact that we're having a dialogue is a good thing.

Well, Jorge... I can't discern which part of the most you disagree with, and which part of the little that you do. So I just have to reply with negatives in mind, since it's most that you disagree with. 

[Inccubus]

You mean polydactyl? Those're rad. I hope he's like a Cabbit too though-google that shit.

I <3 Cabbits! Ryo-Ohki rulz!! (no google)

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

MOOT PAINT!

[Laina]

I <3 Cabbits! Ryo-Ohki rulz!! (no google)

...I <3 you, sir. I <3 you.

[Inccubus]

...I <3 you, sir. I <3 you.

 

this chick's Damsel in Distress video + Jorge's thing about games don't have to be this way in this day and age

I thought her argument came off as out of proportion to the situation.
Yes, it is a male dominated industry and there's room for more female empowered roles. I think things have been slowly improving over the years starting with Samus Aran.
Maybe it's because I have never thought of people as objects under any circumstances ever, but I don't instantly think that because a female is getting rescued in a game that they are a prize to be won or that they are helpless and need a male to rescue them. Objectification of people simply doesn't fit in my head. I was taught better than that.
And for the record I don't recall any instances of a hero in a game truly objectifying a kidnap victim. Most games that I know of are pretty clear about the hero's motives. Mario doesn't save Peach because she's weak and helpless and needs a man to come to her rescue. He does it because it's the right thing to do. And the series as a whole shows that because Mario has come to the rescue of Pauline, Peach, Daisy, Luigi, Yoshi, the Toads, Rosalina, and countless others. To use Super Mario Bros. as an example of misogynistic objectification of women is patently absurd. Where was Grand Theft Auto in all of this? For gods sakes, you heal your HP by way of hookers in that game.
Furthermore, you can't argue against objectification of women without also arguing against objectification of men. Only arguing one side of that is in and of itself divisive and almost equally as ignorant as the alleged objectification itself. If you want to say that we should be better than something in this day and age how about being better than to frame arguments in an "us vs. them" fashion to begin with?
The point this Anita is trying to make is that the "Damsel in Distress' trope is inherently misogynistic and therefore wrong. However, all of her examples are of antagonists objectifying women and protagonists doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do. In no way do any of her examples show the player's avatars implicitly objectifying the kidnap victim and if she had bothered to research the back stories of the mostly older games they would show the implicitly selfless motivations of the protagonists. None of that information is delved into and, therefore, her argument has no lacks the credence for misogyny than it could have.
Finally, while you can say that the video succeeded because we're talking about the issue it does so in what is, frankly, the most disingenuous way of doing so. It's no better than the tasteless SMB3 spoof PETA did to bring attention tanooki. It's a very incendiary and irresponsible way to bring attention to a subject. And in this day and age we should be able to have adult conversations about real problems without all the sensationalist bullshit. We're should be better than that.


Also...

Dale Cooper is my co-pilot

Just noticed this.
And for the record, Dale Cooper is my role model. However, I don't know if I would have run into the lodge without a little bit more "protection" at the end.

[C Belmont]

Expecting her to make a game that empowers women is a little ridiculous in my opinion even with all the money she has recieved.
But she could atleast try analysing & promoting a few positive portrayals instead of focusing on damning all the bad ones in existence. She has 12 or so videos lined up and guess how many are dedicated to positive portrayals of women in videogames? one! one single video!.
 
So by the end of her web series everyone should be well informed on whats wrong with how women are portrayed in videogames and the various crimes we men have comitted against women but they won't know squat about why all the good ones in existence work so well at empowering women.

[Abnormal Freak]

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU GUYS

and I'm sure I'll be called "sexist" or "misogynistic" by Sarkeesian and her ilk for saying this

but strictly physically speaking, Sarkeesian's videos make me really wanna make out with her 'cos I think she's puuuurdy. :B

[Gunlord]

I'm certain I'll be called more misogynistic and sexist than you, because I honestly don't think she's very good looking at all. :p That said, we should judge her on the merits of her argument, not whether or not she's good looking. I should actually sit down and watch the video sometime...

[Inccubus]

Expecting her to make a game that empowers women is a little ridiculous in my opinion even with all the money she has recieved.

I disagree. I think that not only would that do more for her cause, but she generated more than enough in the kickstarter to publish an indie game. But then again, the game probably would have had ended up with misandristic implications.

But she could atleast try analysing & promoting a few positive portrayals instead of focusing on damning all the bad ones in existence. She has 12 or so videos lined up and guess how many are dedicated to positive portrayals of women in videogames? one! one single video!.
 
So by the end of her web series everyone should be well informed on whats wrong with how women are portrayed in videogames and the various crimes we men have comitted against women but they won't know squat about why all the good ones in existence work so well at empowering women.

I agree.