Topic: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches

[TheouAegis]

Ennui kitty!!!!

*knows what ennui means*


One of the other problems with Sarkeesian's damsel vid is she basically is saying misogyny and the objectification of women is what makes video games sell, what makes the boys and deluded men want to play them. That's pure crap. I didn't play Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. 3 because I wanted to save Peach. Hell, I didn't even know she existed until the little mushroom dude told me she was in another castle. I didn't play Final Fantasy Adventure because I wanted to be the big man and rescue Poison Ivy's great-great-great-grandmother from Vandol. I didn't play the Zelda games because I wanted to rescue a princess. The princesses are just there to drive a hastily thrown-together story to drive the gameplay forward. I didn't play Super Metroid because I knew Samus was a girl. I hacked it to see the ending, sure, but didn't play it because of that.

And where does Kid Icarus Uprising fall into this? I mean, it's a damsel-in-distress story, but the damsel is a goddess and you're just one of her angels. Either way, did kids play it because they wanted to rescue Palutena? No, they played it because it looked like a fun game. That's why people buy and play games -- because they look fun! Sarkeesian and Jorge can complain about the bad messages games send all they want, but don't push the blame on the gamers. They play the games because they look fun, not because they have a damsel in distress unless said damsel has a high polygon count and is practically naked.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Whoa there, cowboy.

Do not lump me together with her.  Although I agree with a lot of what she says, I don't place full blame on gamers.  And, as people have clearly stated, her research has fundamental flaws and she's definitely lost some objectivity with some of the things she said.

As I said before, I mostly blame lazy storywriters and game producers. 

For a storywriter, It's EASY to use that trope.  The princess becomes the horde of bananas we gotta get back.  If you can replace a character with an equally-beloved pile of bananas, your storywriting needs work.  Mario games are totally guilty of this.  They're still great games, though.

And it's easy to say, as a producer, something like "Well let's look at the demographic.  Hmmm... 18-35 year old males?  Research shows they like guns, tits, and blood.  If you want a game to sell make it have these three things.  What have you got for a plot?  Oh, that again?  Well just put something that'll make the game sell, will ya?" in a Cave Johnson voice.

Kid Icarus Uprising doesn't have its entire driving point as that trope (though it does happen more than halfway through the game). 

People really need to read all of what I type, and not just every sentence that grinds their gears.

I go back to the original statement that it's perfectly fine to enjoy a game, while at the same time being critical of the aspects of society that it portrays... or something.  I can't quote 'cuz it's quite a few pages back, blah.

[PyramidHead]

Actually I'm tired of saving princesses in video games.. If the game has a great story (like Final Fantasy 9), may be it's not a big problem (besides, Dagger wasn't a damsel in distress). But usually it's: brave "cliche" who explores mysterious "cliche" in order to save another big "cliche", and for that he must collect 7 artifacts - magical stones of immortal "cliches". And of course our brave savior must also find an ancient sword forged by ancient civilization of Cliche. And finally the princess... beautiful maiden who automatically fells in love with the brave cliche.

But overall I don't think that showing women as "weak and fragile" is wrong. I like weak women. I feel an instant urge to protect them - that's just natural for me. And without that, I would feel like my life doesn't have meaning. And developers (who are usually men) knows that fact.

[Kale]

Actually I'm tired of saving princesses in video games..

I'm not... I'm tired of crappy stories. Sorry CV, but you do tend to have them too. And Rondo had both!

It's not the actual idea of saving princess, its just that there is rarely any variance than the usual. Play Xenogears. That's one where its' interesting and the female is kind of all powerful... but so is the male.

[Pfil]

Rondo of Blood...
The interesting thing there is that I can play with a female character and actually rescue another female characters!
That's not very cliche in my opinion, even though my female character was rescued in the first place. It's a nice twist to the usual cliche.

[TheouAegis]

Fire Emblem Awakening
Invade a kingdom to save the exalt (your sister) from public execution. She kills herself anyway.

Zombies Ate My Neighbors
Can play as Julie and run around rescuing bouncy teen cheerleaders.

Meh. I prefer tactical games anyway, but they're typically full of cliches too. Evil empire invades your land. Mad sorcerer threatens the peace. Three-headed ancient dragon has awoken. Pits of hell open and the world is full of demons. Only our brave band of warriors can save the world!  Although girls are almost always mages or archers. At least Fire Emblem let you have girl knights. ... Ok so they're pretty weak, but whatever that's how it should be. I tried to love SUlly, really I did; but Stahl just had her beat out on so many levels. Point is, cliches and tropes are just human nature. Feminists complaining about damsels in distress is just as cliche. Cliches stopped me from playing lots of RPGs over the years, but for a platformer, who the fuck really cares? You don't play them for the story.

[Gunlord]

The girl knights are actually pretty good in Fire Emblem, actually. Ayra (and her daughter, Lakche) in Fire Emblem 4 are pretty much indisputably the most powerful units you can get, surpassed only by Sety and Julia with the Naga tome.

[Lelygax]

You can play with a girl since FF II too.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Final Fantasy Tactics' Agrias character is pretty awesome as well.

[X]

Ok so they're pretty weak, but whatever that's how it should be.

No that's not how knights (female knights or any knight) is supposed to be. When you wear a suit of steel or iron armor and wield heavy weaponry almost all day, everyday, you will gain stamina and put on lots of muscle. Women are no exception to this reality as they are human just like men. And just like men they will gain stamina and muscle mass doing hard knight training for years. Will they be naturally weaker then men with all those years of training? Hell no! They'll be heavy-hitters who can cleave off body parts and cave a person's skull in due to their excessive and hard training regiment. They will be just as strong as men, though there are some women who have been known to exceed in strength over men so the opposite is true too. But many video game designers don't realize this reality and it shows in their games. So I dare you TheouAegis to walk up to a strong woman and tell her she's weak.

[Kale]

Rondo of Blood...
The interesting thing there is that I can play with a female character and actually rescue another female characters!
That's not very cliche in my opinion, even though my female character was rescued in the first place. It's a nice twist to the usual cliche.

That's true, but Rondo did really have one of the most cliches in there, the aforementioned Damsel in Distress and the Save the world story line. Aside from that, there isn't much that push it away from that except Maria and the fact that the remake (possibly the old one as well, but i never played the old one completely through) that Annette can change, if you're a failure. Spoiler Alert. >.>

I'm not saying it's a huge piece of crap, but it really did have the 2 most used cliches ever.

[Lelygax]

Typing "Spoiler Alert" after the spoiler doesnt help in anything, thats why we have a spoiler tag
And no, Annete doesnt change in the classic Rondo of Blood. Only in SNES Dracula X and in Dracula X Chronicles for PSP.

Also the Damsel in Distress thing doesnt happen like in the other games, simply because you dont need to save anyone to proceed or end the game, its not mandatory. So if someone think that its wrong to save people, he can just ignore everyone and end the game. (Less in DXC, since you need to save Annete, but yuou can ignore Maria)

[Super Waffle]

Anita-sama

[Lilfut]

Do you know what the problem is in analyzing the themes and biases in Mario?

Mario is not about the story.

That's not to say it doesn't have one, but I don't buy a new Mario game to find out about the next step in the Mario saga. And the Mario games that do have worthwhile stories don't include the Damsel trope as much anyway - Peach is one of the best party members in SMRPG, she shows her capability in both Paper Mario RPG games, and she is one of the Chosen Heroes (or whatever they called them - it's been a while) in Super Paper Mario. I haven't played the M&L games so that might not be as true there, but my point still stands. Analyzing the thought that went into a Mario storyline is a futile endeavor because no thought went into it.

Just my two cents.

[Lelygax]

Source or no more tentacles for you.

(click to show/hide)

j/k about the tentacle part

Do you know what the problem is in analyzing the themes and biases in Mario?

Mario is not about the story.

That's not to say it doesn't have one, but I don't buy a new Mario game to find out about the next step in the Mario saga. And the Mario games that do have worthwhile stories don't include the Damsel trope as much anyway - Peach is one of the best party members in SMRPG, she shows her capability in both Paper Mario RPG games, and she is one of the Chosen Heroes (or whatever they called them - it's been a while) in Super Paper Mario. I haven't played the M&L games so that might not be as true there, but my point still stands. Analyzing the thought that went into a Mario storyline is a futile endeavor because no thought went into it.

Just my two cents.

Can you show us some evidence?