Topic: Konami: "Taking risks with CV prevented it from becoming another Megaman"

[A-Yty]

I was genuinely asking what kind of things mean "growing up" for a game series.

[The Silverlord]

Castlevania, for all its characters and its good vs. evil core storyline, has always been created in a more innocent kind of way.  See: storylines and characters in likes of Portrait of Ruin (and also the cartoonish, anime-esque graphics).

Lords of Shadow was a step away into something darker, into something more mature.

I support that.  And I have an appreciation of Lords of Shadow in that regard.

It doesn't need to be that way.  I get that.  A good game is a good game, but I wanted to see it grow up a bit.

[uzo]

DmC is a perfect example of a reboot that has a high respect for the name it carries.

What? Seriously?

Ninja Theory took a Brokeback Mountain poster and photoshopped old Dante into it to show off at GDC. No that is not exaggerated. It actually happened. That is the exact OPPOSITE of respect.

[A-Yty]

So let's apply the same "growing up" thing to, say, Mega Man, for example. Away with his happy go lucky attitude. That is juvenile, isn't it? And what about those silly anthromorphic robots with their ridiculous motifs? Childish.

[GuyStarwind]

Sounds like Dante's Inferno to me.

On a side note, I thought Dante's Inferno was fun. Idk something just get's me fighting evil monster with holy items in hell.

[The Silverlord]

Would "growing up" work for Mega Man though?  More realism perhaps?  I'm not sure it would mate.  It would take a lot of vision I think to try and craft something out of that.

Castlevania?  Yes. You can go much, much deeper into the horror and explore many emotions.  Vampires that feel like they'd rip your own throat out.  A castle with an aura of distinct peril.  Feeling of intimidation. Reward for progression.  Realistic eerie landscapes where the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.  Really take a Belmont vs. Dracula scenario to an extreme.

There's a path to that dark place, a place which is "grown up" in the sense I mean it.  You see?

Doesn't mean it's the right way to go or my opinion is a valid one.  I also don't mean to use the term "growing up" in an overtly derogatory fashion.

[crisis]

You guys haven't played the Mega Man Zero series? It contains VERY mature content; in fact the Japanese version even has "blood" splatter out whenever you slice an enemy in half.

[A-Yty]

In my opinion, those are gimmicks. The way LoS did it. The ridiculous overkills and hands-on violence. They stray away from the point and makes the whole thing almost cartoony. Just look at the gorn of a QTE-filled session where Gabriel kills Carmilla. I rolled my eyes during that or when he air-jousted Satan.

The kind of "darkness" (separating it from gothic style) I see as more Castlevania are things like hanged corpses in the SQ mansions. Or Death's dungeon in CV. Or the catacombs in SotN. It's very moderately visceral or fleshy (which, I think makes bosses like Legion and Beezelbub stand out from the bunch).

[Foffy]

DmC is a perfect example of a reboot that has a high respect for the name it carries.
Dante is a different character, and it kind of rebooted the story.
But the look, music and gameplay stayed exactly as every Devil May Cry fan remembers it.
I never cared for Dante, so I didn't care for the change (I liked this Dante even less than the previous one).
I liked the story (but I also liked DMC3's story), and in terms of enjoyment this was the game I enjoyed the most on the series.
There were several times that I felt a little envy for DMC fans, because this is how a saga can be rebooted and still retain the identity.
It's what I personally see, and anyone can differ from my vision.
But I find DmC as the perfect example to refresh a franchise with respect for its name.

So much of this is factually wrong. How much of that franchise have you played? After playing all of the games, I can see all of the blatant issues DmC created, making it the worst title in the series since DMC2. The style system is something that's been absolutely broken (I don't even think I have to explain this, but I can if you don't see it), and the concept of mandating specific types of weapons on color-coated enemies is something that breaks the fundamental freedom offered in previous games. DmC is more about Ninja Theory having more respect for Heavenly Sword to use that as a template in DMC skin than it is for DMC. It's basically a gothic Heavenly Sword with characters who have names similar to those from Devil May Cry.

As much as it is odd to say it, LoS has had the most respect for its franchise in terms of reboots and legacy for what came before. And even then I think it fucks up a ton of it, like the most elementary concept of this series (Belmont/good vs. Dracula/evil turning into a DeviantArt plot twist). But that just goes to show you the state of video game reboots in the first place, doesn't it? Almost all of them ruin some image, some core of the series it's about, you can plainly tell it's made by people truly unfamiliar with the deepest facets. Tomb Raider is a perfect example of what happens when you care about the name and not the legacy, and that was this year.

[Maedhros]

LoS simply gave the middle finger to the older fanbase and created it's own. It's almost always the case with reboots.

How much of the old fanbase stayed with them... we'll never know.

[A-Yty]

I wouldn't have a problem with that if LoS wasn't hogging the resources.

[The Silverlord]

In my opinion, those are gimmicks. The way LoS did it. The ridiculous overkills and hands-on violence. They stray away from the point and makes the whole thing almost cartoony. Just look at the gorn of a QTE-filled session where Gabriel kills Carmilla. I rolled my eyes during that or when he air-jousted Satan.

Personally, I think the art assets used and direction was fairly cohesive, and the raw aspect and emotion of the characters and the violence portrayed largely consistent throughout the game.

However, you have gameplay elements which are heavily compartmentalised (combat here, shimmy there, puzzle here, platform there etc.), cut-scene and QTE segments which interrupt play, a narrative which drags on and makes you all too aware of it (and praying it moves on a bit), hence the inclination is to treat the game as a bit gimmicky. And of course it's true to say the game borrows elements from God of War, SotC, Tomb Raider and Lord of the Rings.

With that said though, IMO there's an indiscernible and redeeming quality to the game where—despite all its faults—I still felt caught up in it.  It's almost like a "je ne c'est quois", where I still felt a sense of immersion in the world Mercurysteam created in spite of its many "gimmicks".

Or maybe I'm talking bollocks (not for the last time .

[K.G. Morder]

You guys haven't played the Mega Man Zero series? It contains VERY mature content; in fact the Japanese version even has "blood" splatter out whenever you slice an enemy in half.

Mega Man X4 did it first

Megaman X4: Double's Betrayal

because edgy anime

Although Zero had a fucked up post apocalyptic world and themes of genocide and racism and shit. So it wins by a landslide

[Pfil]

What? Seriously?

Ninja Theory took a Brokeback Mountain poster and photoshopped old Dante into it to show off at GDC. No that is not exaggerated. It actually happened. That is the exact OPPOSITE of respect.

Yes, seriously.
With all respect, this is my personal point of view, nothing more, but I believe it that DmC was only disrespectful of the Dante character.
Every other thing I know about Devil May Cry was still there. And they added some more things I liked.
I wish LoS would have taken the same approach (for example, an asshole modern Belmont which I would have hated, but the rest of what I consider to be Castlevania still there: 3D stages with blue maps and percentage completion, RPG elements, leveling up, items, a soundtrack in the Michiru Yamane style).
I think it's the exact opposite. Gabriel character (and its story) was the only thing I really liked about the original LoS (that, and the more CV-ish Reverie DLC).
That's my opinion.

About what they mentioned about growing up... from my personal experience, every time they say something is growing up or turning more mature, to me it's just that it's becoming terribly boring.

I'll set this personal example about my tastes with something very specific: Animes about vampires.
I love Rosario to Vampire. I love everything about it. I don't like Hellsing. It bored me to death. They say Hellsing is "mature" and "compelling". That perfectly explain my tastes and what I like, I think.
Just as I don't like LoS and I love everything about PoR.

[Pfil]

So much of this is factually wrong. How much of that franchise have you played? After playing all of the games, I can see all of the blatant issues DmC created, making it the worst title in the series since DMC2. The style system is something that's been absolutely broken (I don't even think I have to explain this, but I can if you don't see it), and the concept of mandating specific types of weapons on color-coated enemies is something that breaks the fundamental freedom offered in previous games. DmC is more about Ninja Theory having more respect for Heavenly Sword to use that as a template in DMC skin than it is for DMC. It's basically a gothic Heavenly Sword with characters who have names similar to those from Devil May Cry.

As much as it is odd to say it, LoS has had the most respect for its franchise in terms of reboots and legacy for what came before. And even then I think it fucks up a ton of it, like the most elementary concept of this series (Belmont/good vs. Dracula/evil turning into a DeviantArt plot twist). But that just goes to show you the state of video game reboots in the first place, doesn't it? Almost all of them ruin some image, some core of the series it's about, you can plainly tell it's made by people truly unfamiliar with the deepest facets. Tomb Raider is a perfect example of what happens when you care about the name and not the legacy, and that was this year.

Indeed, Tomb Raider is another perfect example of having respect for the name it carries.
I played all Devil May Cry games. I think the first one was mediocre, the 2nd one terrible, I liked the 3rd (especially its story) and the 4th was OK, but I loved its look. In terms of aesthetic, DmC is the 2nd game I liked the most on the whole DMC saga (my favourite being the DMC 4). As I said, I never liked Dante nor cared about him as a character, and I think Ninja Theory was just disrespectful to him. Of course, to hardcore DMC fans that is a sacrilege, just as it is to me the fact that they stripped away the Castlevania characteristic music. But from where I see it (I'm a hardcore CV fan who happens to play other games too), everything from the DMC was present but with a different lead character and a rebooted story (which I also liked, although my favourite story is DMC 3).
And I enjoyed the gameplay.
It would take a true DMC hardcore fan to know exactly (just as a casual CV player couldn't say if LoS did it right or not), and I'm pretty sure they won't agree between them all, just as we don't all agree here on the Dungeon, but from what I perceived, DmC was a very good game, and a very good DMC game also.
That's my opinion, but as I said, anyone can disagree and have a different vision.