Topic: Save your criticism

[beingthehero]

I recall hearing someone say once: All VG music composers should learn to compose chiptunes before working on real music for games. that way they learn to make melodic music under limitations.

I dunno, Yuzo Koshiro of all people said that there is no difference in limitations between composing using chiptunes or with live-action instruments. It's all about imagination and what you're willing to do. There have been bland chiptune music before as well as melodic 'real' music. If Araujo did the soundtrack using a chiptune it still would've been bland.

I don't know if you mean it that way, but you make it sound like anyone who enjoys the game is a dudebro. Just sayin', it's kind of insulting. 

Embrace your inner dudebro, you know it to be true!

[Pfil]

The problem does not reside on the instruments used. It's just Araujo's ways which did it all.
Simplistic chord progressions, lack of closure to ideas, lack of melody, repetitive arrangements and total absence of emotion.
Give Araujo a chiptune and he will make exactly the same with chiptunes.
On the other hand, give someone else from the film industry, like Paul Cantelon or Alexandre Desplat, the same orchestra Araujo used, and perhaps they'll come out with a superb soundtrack (like they did on several occasions).

[Munchy]

The problem does not reside on the instruments used. It's just Araujo's ways which did it all.
Simplistic chord progressions, lack of closure to ideas, lack of melody, repetitive arrangements and total absence of emotion

Hm... I wouldn't say there was no emotion. It's just that what was played during certain times would rarely fit the situation.

When the music and the situation do match, like with certain battle situations, it can work really well. (Although hearing that damn theme used in the trailer for just about every major boss was kind of grating after a while.)

I'd say the main thing missing that was present in some of the better games was music evoking a sense of mystery.

well that's not too surprising, given Waterfalls of Agharta is an orchestral remix of The Waterfall from SCIV
The Waterfall: Super Castlevania 4 Music

Ironically, the best parts of the soundtrack, Belmont's theme aside, ARE the orchestral remixes of classic tunes.

See, to me this song wasn't really a remix. It contained a few musical motifs (the harp notes) from The Waterfall but the rest did its own thing.

I think of it the same way I think of comparing Leon's Theme to Calling From Heaven. Or the Library theme in MoF, which had a motif from Heart of Fire but wasn't really a remix. (We should make a thread about not-quite-remixes and musical tributes in the series.)

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

When I heard LoS was going to be using more high-quality samples, I thought the music would sound like this:


http://youtu.be/N8hE0c62kSw?t=32s
(for a cave)

or this

http://youtu.be/YOayoH9YRWk?t=13s

or this

Handel - Passacaglia in G-Minor for Orchestra

and definitely this (it grows, give it 2 minutes)

http://youtu.be/1q0t683xaWI?t=1s

[Belmontoya]

When I think of music for a gothic game that's trying to appeal to "dudebros" I think of upbeat music with thumping electric guitar and solos. We heard a lot of this in the IGA games and even some in Rondo of Blood.

LOS has an orchestral and sometimes very delicate score. Tell me how filling a game with classical style music fits with trying to make a game appeal to a dudebro audience? They did a great job with the score of this game, and they did it without cheep hooks and cheesy guitar rock genre crossovers. They did what was right for the game.

What I think is the only valid complaint I've read about the score was by Uzo. He said that because they arranged the music in a cinematic way sometimes you wind up with moments where the music is sounding really climactic or scary in a mundane moment, like walking by a cliff. But I still think that is a worthwhile trade off to have such a rich score. The thing is that Castlevania games before LOS did not have as wide of a variety of moments like this for the music not to line up. It's just the nature of the games.

Anyways, this "dudebro" label that some are trying to stamp on LOS does not fit at all. Especially not in the music department.

[Inccubus]

Dudebro gamers to me are more like those that just play whatever is popular rather than being actual fans rather than being specific to a particular game or genre.

I still maintain that they could have done a reboot that was more true to the spirit of Castlevania without having to completely rewrite everything and without the Hollywood hard-on or the whole "forget everything you know about Castlevania" schtick since the new people they were trying to attract likely don't know a damn thing about the old canon anyway. It would have done just as well and pissed of less of the dedicated fan base because honestly I think the reason the game did well had more to do with exposure in the gaming press and social media driven hype.

[Dracula9]

I don't entirely think the cinematic approach to the soundtrack was a bad thing, though. I just think that the execution wasn't done as well as it could/should have been; because Lords really is a cinematic game, with an equally cinematic soundtrack. It just didn't have as much effort put into timing and placement as it did, say, graphics (not that I'm complaining on that note).

And the cinematic formula can work when juxtaposed correctly. Like the God of War series, for instance. Particularly the most recent two games of the series are amazingly cinematic both in musical score and visual composition; but it was done right. There's never a driving melody when there's no enemy hordes or hazardous platforming, and the cutoffs from action to exploration are clean and flowing. It's just the proof for how wonderful the cinematic approach is, when done correctly. That's why it typically annoys me when someone gives Lords' soundtrack shit for being cinematic (this isn't directed at uzo or anyone here in particular, but more at the bandwagoners who say it and can't back it up, and there's a ton of LoS-hate bandwagoners).

[Flame]

Dudebro gamers to me are more like those that just play whatever is popular

So... SoTN is a dudebro game..? it DID after all, copy Super Metroid, which was incredibly popular and still relatively new at the time.

When I think of music for a gothic game that's trying to appeal to "dudebros" I think of upbeat music with thumping electric guitar and solos. We heard a lot of this in the IGA games and even some in Rondo of Blood.

...and they did it without cheep hooks and cheesy guitar rock

This is my biggest problem with CV HD. It's ALL rock and it all starts sounding incredibly generic after a while.

[Dracula9]

I think he was referring more to the modern era of popular games rather than generalizing all of gaming history. Games like CoD (yeah, I know, using CoD is overdone but it's the best example of this) that have a ton of popularity but generally have a douchebag fanbase and/or little uniqueness or merit to them. SotN and Super Metroid were phenomenal, but you have to consider (and I hate that I'm about to sound like a total hipster) that those were during probably the best period in gaming.

[DoctaMario]

I understand all of that just fine, I just don't agree with nor like the degree to which they took it. It is possible to depart so far from the things that characterize a series of works to the point that it might as well have not been included in that series at all. The score of LoS is far away from even being similar to any soundtrack that came before it in the CV franchise.
As far as my point of view it doesn't matter that it's "CASSLEVANYUUUHHHHH". If they had done this sort of score for a reboot of Megaman, Super Mario, Sonic, or Contra I wouldn't like it either because it wouldn't fit the character of those series any more than it did here.
What you seem to be missing is that, reboot or not, they presented LoS as a part of the Castlevania series which inextricably connects it to the character of that series and all those things that it has been known for since 1986. Just because they were intentionally departing from the old canon doesn't make the score fit the game as part of the Castlevania series any better. If they had dropped the Castlevania connection completely I'd have nothing to say about it at all.
 

I was referring to the demographic that Konami was most concerned with. I never said anything about who actually likes it.

I think the LoS score fits well, and that's why they put it in. That type or score WOULDN'T fit with the series you mentioned unless they received a drastic overhaul, which LoS did not. Folks like to make it seem like LoS is a completely alien game to the rest of the series in terms of, well, just about anything, but with a few exceptions, if you mentioned a particular thing, I could pinpoint a previous entry of the series where that element was used, including pseudo cinematic music (hint: the 64 games) Some elements (including the score) have seen new elements grafted to old ones with varying degrees of success, but if you can't see the connections, it's because you (general "you" that is) either haven't played the other games enough to recognize them, or you just have no sense of history. But there is little about LoS that is new to the series. Either way, it's your opinion that the music doesn't fit and I think your opinion is wrong. So we digress...

So... SoTN is a dudebro game..? it DID after all, copy Super Metroid, which was incredibly popular and still relatively new at the time.
This is my biggest problem with CV HD. It's ALL rock and it all starts sounding incredibly generic after a while.

I was going to reference this in my post but you beat me to it. And I agree. SoTN borrowed HEAVILY from other games, and it's considered a masterpiece (it's an above average game to be sure, but masterpiece? HArdly.) So why does LoS get shit for doing the same thing SoTN did to great effect?

[crisis]

So why does LoS get shit for doing the same thing SoTN did to great effect?

I think it's because Symphony borrowed Metroid's style but at the same time made it all it's own (the term "metroidvania" doesn't even belong to Metroid anymore. There hasn't been a sprite-based 2D Metroid in ages, the style now belongs to Castlevania since Nintendo refuses to make anymore 2D Metroids. It's almost like calling every 2D platformer that came after Mario Bros. a "Marioformer."); the gothic aesthetic was in tune with Castlevania's general premise & the time period the plot takes place in, so it's commonly seen as the ideal Castlevania. Lords, on the other hand, borrowed other games styles but did a poor attempt to mold it into it's own aesthetic; It seemed more like a hodge-podge of Prince of Persia meets Shadow of the Colossus meets God of War, with the gothic atmosphere present only for a couple of chapters within the 20 chapter game. I believe had they flat-out removed the Agharta levels, or made the "Land of the Lycans" less generic-looking, then people particularly the general CV fanbase that are against LoS would've had a much better time accepting the game.

I still maintain that they could have done a reboot that was more true to the spirit of Castlevania without having to completely rewrite everything and without the Hollywood hard-on since the whole "forget everything you know about Castlevania" schtick since the new people they were trying to attract likely don't know a damn thing about the old canon anyway.

What some people tend to forget is, that MercurySteam's original pitch indeed WAS in tune with the spirit of Castlevania, or so it seemed. Their original intent was to reboot the franchise by remaking CV1, albeit with several changes & modifications of course. That's what Cox/MS wanted to do, until Konami/Kojima stepped in & told them to "change it up."

Castlevania Lords of Shadow Simon Belmont Beta Footage

[Kingshango]

I was going to reference this in my post but you beat me to it. And I agree. SoTN borrowed HEAVILY from other games, and it's considered a masterpiece (it's an above average game to be sure, but masterpiece? HArdly.) So why does LoS get shit for doing the same thing SoTN did to great effect?

I'll fill this in as best I can:

When SOTN came out, the whole Metroidvania was a rare genre at the time, only dominated by...well Metroid. SOTN was taking the Metroid format and sprinkling it with the Castlevania flavor mixed with some RPG elements. It's one of the only game that can challenge Super Metroid and both games became to of a kind. Plus it made such a radical change without losing that Castlevania feeling.

Lords of Shadow is a different story. Prior to Lords of Shadow's rebranding as a Castlevania game, there were a number of hack n slash "God of War clones" out on the market, including God of War itself. God of War became to ideal action game for western developers to base their action games on since it became so popular and each game in the series sold well for it's accessibility compared to say DMC3 or Ninja Gaiden Black. However most of those games couldn't quite catch what made God of War so special so those games ended up being pale imitations. God of War became the pedestal for action games, much like how Super Metroid became the pedestal in the past for the 2D adventure game. When Lords got re-revealed as a Castlevania there was both joy and discomfort. One one hand it looked pretty, one the otherhand it looked like God of War gameplay wise. Plus, when those arc words stated by Dave Cox "Forget everything you know about Castlevania." Some felt even more discomfort that the series has suddenly been rebooted entirely and just dropped it's 20 plus year legacy in favor of a generic AAA blockbuster hack n slash to cash in on God of War developed by a western developer who's last game was objectively shit (even I hated it).

Then you got the flat out lies from Cox, Araujo's comment's on the music style of the past games and the game overall being very polarizing and you get why some fans hate the Lords of Shadow games. Then add in that the game may or may not be the most successful Casltevania game in the series history, which might be the thing some of the haters want to hear.

[Ahasverus]

The comment taht "the music was effeminate" came from KONAMI itself, Araujo said he wanted to do it old school but Konami said they felt it was effeminate. Mercury takes a lot of bashing, and if anything the guilty is Dave Cox (the voice of konami), Mercury is kinda like Ninja Theory, that absorbed all the backslash of the "emo Dante" after they pitched a traditional Dante to Capcom and they told them to keep him as far from that as possible.

[Inccubus]

I don't entirely think the cinematic approach to the soundtrack was a bad thing, though. I just think that the execution wasn't done as well as it could/should have been; because Lords really is a cinematic game, with an equally cinematic soundtrack. It just didn't have as much effort put into timing and placement as it did, say, graphics (not that I'm complaining on that note).

And the cinematic formula can work when juxtaposed correctly. Like the God of War series, for instance. Particularly the most recent two games of the series are amazingly cinematic both in musical score and visual composition; but it was done right. There's never a driving melody when there's no enemy hordes or hazardous platforming, and the cutoffs from action to exploration are clean and flowing. It's just the proof for how wonderful the cinematic approach is, when done correctly. That's why it typically annoys me when someone gives Lords' soundtrack shit for being cinematic (this isn't directed at uzo or anyone here in particular, but more at the bandwagoners who say it and can't back it up, and there's a ton of LoS-hate bandwagoners).

While it's true that a well done cinematic score can work well in a game that is set up for it, we are specifically talking about LoS. The lackluster execution aside, there are certain expectations that people had about what a game with the Castlevania brand slapped on it should sound like. And what was done for LoS is far away from that.
That said, I totally agree about bandwagoners, whether it be a hate wagon or fap wagon.

So... SoTN is a dudebro game..? it DID after all, copy Super Metroid, which was incredibly popular and still relatively new at the time.

I never said anything about using the same format as another game. Incidentally, Metroid is one the series where a cinematic score would fit well with the spirit of the series. Super Metroid itself was already trying to do some of this. So did Star Fox. Although you'll notice they kept it confined to the intro and ending music for the most part.

What some people tend to forget is, that MercurySteam's original pitch indeed WAS in tune with the spirit of Castlevania, or so it seemed. Their original intent was to reboot the franchise by remaking CV1, albeit with several changes & modifications of course. That's what Cox/MS wanted to do, until Konami/Kojima stepped in & told them to "change it up."

Castlevania Lords of Shadow Simon Belmont Beta Footage

And that's why I don't entirely blame MS... Cox is still a bit of an ass though.

The comment taht "the music was effeminate" came from KONAMI itself, Araujo said he wanted to do it old school but Konami said they felt it was effeminate. Mercury takes a lot of bashing, and if anything the guilty is Dave Cox (the voice of konami), Mercury is kinda like Ninja Theory, that absorbed all the backslash of the "emo Dante" after they pitched a traditional Dante to Capcom and they told them to keep him as far from that as possible.

+1 for clarification.

[X]

Castlevania Lords of Shadow Simon Belmont Beta Footage

I'm glad this Simon never made it. All I'm seeing in this beta footage is a copy & past of Assassin's Creed.