Topic: why weren't Hector y Isaac vampires?

[theplottwist]

However, this is never specified and the only being thought to have possessed all the stones at some point in time - due to being known for mastering Alchemy - is Saint Germain.

I'd like to know how did you get to this conclusion. I mean, nowhere anywhere it is ever mentioned that Saint Germain is an alchemist (sure, the real one was told to be an alchemist, but this doesn't apply to Castlevania's Saint Germain) much less is there a hint that he had all stones at some point.

I'm not calling you out. I know you're aware of what I just said. What I want to know is what thought process you used to reach this conclusion.

On a side note, we don't really know a whole lot about how vampirism works in the Castlevania universe.  The only time we've seen anyone start to turn, they are killed (Sara) or cured (Dorin) before the change completes.  The one exception being Mathias, who for very obvious reasons was likely to have a very different experience then most.  Maybe freshly turned vampires are mentally weak or overly dependent on their masters... Carmilla always seemed little more then a pet, so who knows.

In fact, there also are the examples of the Sisters. It seems indeed that people turned into vampires by other vampires (The sisters, Elizabeth Bartley) become dependent on their turners, but people turned into vampires through other methods are ruled by no one but themselves (Dracula, Walter, Brauner).

OBS: Walter's turning is detailed on that LoI mobile manga. He was turned into a vampire still inside his mother's womb through a pact with a demon/entity heavily implied to be Death, therefore leading to Walter's exclamation at the end of Lament: "You... You have betrayed me!"

[zangetsu468]

Just to OP Hector states in the ending "I have many friends I must conceal from the humans". It's inferred that he isn't your run of the mill man when referencing "humans" as another species. Perhaps he is a half breed between a human mother and a lesser demon father, or just a stronger being than a regular human altogether. Who is to say that being a devil forgemaster and toiling with alchemy hasn't altered his composition at a cellular and chemical level also?

I'd like to know how did you get to this conclusion. I mean, nowhere anywhere it is ever mentioned that Saint Germain is an alchemist (sure, the real one was told to be an alchemist, but this doesn't apply to Castlevania's Saint Germain) much less is there a hint that he had all stones at some point.

I'm not calling you out. I know you're aware of what I just said. What I want to know is what thought process you used to reach this conclusion.

The figure I've come across as "Saint Germain" is Theosophical Master who is also referred to as Master Rakoczi who used Alchemy to gain immortality and then adopted the title of Saint Germain.

This figure of Saint Germain was claimed to have been met by historical figures at different points in history which do not make chronological sense in the lifespan of 1 human being. Castlevania's Saint Germain is:
- Dressed like a Count/ Nobleman
- Is associated with time travel and has the ability to manipulate time (within a certain area/ zone, referenced in his duel with Hector)
- Moves in and out of portals/ wormholes (possibly interdimensional or can manipulate time/ space as above)
- Pulls a sword from thin air in the fight with Hector i.e. turning energy/ one form of matter into another form of matter (Alchemy)
- Seems to have potential knowledge of how future events/ causality plays out (referenced by his advisement to Hector to not pursue Isaac.)
- Seems to be an 'observer' of events stating "as a traveler of time I see the morrow a bit differently... the flow of time has stabilised at last... There is one great battle to be faught -- the final battle between Lord Dracula and the humans."
Hence he already knows about the battle of 1999 at such an early stage a few hundred years prior.

The way he manipulates matter and has access to different points in time, would indicate that heavy inspiration was taken from the theosophical figure. His ongoing feud with Zead/ Death implies that he is also supernatural, exists ethereally or as he states "half there" and is an immortal of sorts who has run into Zead/ Death before. He also has the ability to see Zead for who he truly is as opposed to Hector.

There was also a theory about this some time ago in the CVD. theplottwist had theorised that SG's meetings with Hector and testing his strength altered the continuum and Hector became strong enough to defeat Isaac and Dracula (in a non-centennial resurrection- form). theplottwist wrote that in the initial continuum it so happened that Hector failed, which prompted SG's involvement and this ultimately altered the events of COD. I'm beginning to understand this pov.

I do suspect this as well as SG's connection with time and the Eneomaos Machine Tower. I wrote about this before and I won't go into too much detail, however, I theorise the following:
- SG is Eneomaos; which spells "Some Aeon"^^
- SG left the clues on forging Innocent Devils to assist in Hector's success.
- Hector originally failed; either killed by Isaac, Zead or Dracula (Isaac) OR kills Isaac and becomes the vessel for Dracula's NCR (non-centennial resurrection.)
- SG's constant appearances in COD ultimately lead to Hector's destiny and the continuum or sequence of events/ causality to be altered.

[^^Aeon:
noun
1.
(in Gnosticism) one of a class of powers or beings conceived as emanating from the Supreme Being and performing various functions in the operations of the universe.
2. an immeasurably long period of time; age]



The best examples I can give of this are found in the dialogue between Hector and SG as follows:

Saint Germain: Oh! An unexpected guest. - "Guest" may be a general term, or imo imply ownership of the Machine Tower
(Saint Germain reaches to the side and pulls a sword from thin air) - Alchemy reference
Saint Germain: I can fight you.
Hector: So, is that your intent? To stop me by force?
Saint Germain: Not exactly. But by fighting you, all that I need to know will be revealed. - Temporal junction point of causality; originally a different outcome?
.............
Saint Germain: I surrender... I promise to not interfere with you again.
Hector: Very well.
Saint Germain: I now see how fascinating time, or rather, fate truly is. - Causality has already been altered
Hector: Just who are you?
Saint Germain: A traveler. Only half here. Not allowed to speak the truth. Not allowed to act upon reality. Yet one who knows all... That about covers it.
Hector: I see. Not allowed to speak the truth...
Saint Germain: Please forget everything I have told you. A traveler merely passes through, touching nothing, changing nothing. But there is one thing I can tell you. - He can't directly alter the flow of causality itself. Only Hector is able to.
Hector: What is that?
Saint Germain: I feel a new destiny flowing out of you. Walk the path that is meant for you without fear... For you are no longer alone... - Perhaps a reference to the ending i.e. Hector's alternate destiny/ causality changing: Hector lost Rosalie and was 'alone', if he was supposed to fail that would have been his destiny. However, in the ending he is united with Julia (the spitting image of Rosalie; no longer alone.

There's nothing stating that SG found the 4 stones, however given the context of CV's universe Rinaldo clearly states that the ultimate goal of alchemy is eternal life, and the crimson/ ebony stones were made unintentionally during the process of the 'philosophers stone' being created in order to attain this. Therefore it is my assumption that within the CV universe SG did indeed acquire the Philosopher's Stone at some point prior to COD (though not necessarily chronologically prior to COD, because he is a time traveller) as he heavily exhibits all the signs of time association/ manipulation/ travelling, knowledge of causality, knowledge and application of alchemy and ability to exist outside of the confines of reality being "half there" as opposed to regular beings who live in the confines of causality, including being bound by time, age and finite life spans etc.

This reflects the theosophical figure of Saint Germain to me.

Finally, in SG's official art: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/castlevania/images/2/21/Cod_1024g.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081025202127
- His appearance displays the colours of the 4 cardinal points which I do believe refer to the 4 stones of alchemy (discussed in one of my previous posts); green (eyes), crimson/ red (jacket), black (hat/ vest), white (pants, gloves, hourglass sand etc)
This could imply the 4 stones of alchemy being attained, some may feel I'm reading too much into this but that's fine.
- He is holding an hourglass filled with what one would think is white sand. However, anyone who has done enough research into the Philosopher's Stone would have come across information that it is not necessarily a 'stone' at all. It is often represented in the form of a white powder. ** I believe that Saint Germain is actually shown holding the philosopher's stone within his hourglass. It's not simply sand nor is it coincidence in my opinion.

That is my reasoning.

**Without going into absurd amounts of detail which is available on the internet and books (google ancient egypt, philoshopher's
stone, eternal life etc) When melting gold past 1000 degrees it actually transforms into this white powder which supposedly prolonged life or gave eternal life. This was also thought to be why the Pharaohs and possibly also Deities lived longer lives than humans, aside from the general advantages of being the upper class of social strata and having greater opportunities and standards of living and so forth. It was also why the Pharaohs were the only ones who could afford to consume it, as it literally came from gold.

OBS: Walter's turning is detailed on that LoI mobile manga. He was turned into a vampire still inside his mother's womb through a pact with a demon/entity heavily implied to be Death, therefore leading to Walter's exclamation at the end of Lament: "You... You have betrayed me!"

I thought Death just served the Castle's master. This is one of the reasons I have believed Walter's Castle was in fact the first incarnation of Castlevania. However is the manga supposed to be canon? I wonder. Who actually wrote the manga and was Konami or any of the staff involved? I tend to follow the games so for now I will stick to my guns that Death follows the Castle's Master. Regardless he would have served Mathias post-acquisition of the Crimson Stone.

[theplottwist]

**Explanation**

In the words of Saint Germain himself: "Interesting... Most interesting! Yes, it is quite possible!"

The only thing I'm not really keen about is the color-coding on his clothing being a hint, and indeed I think you're reading too much into it. YET I still find even this interesting and how you strung all this together. Nice.

The thread you referenced was written by me. It's this one:
http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,7585.msg169532.html#msg169532

This thread was already a "study" I was doing on the series to start writting Umbra's plot. I don't necessarily agree with some things in it anymore, but the meat of it - Saint Germain and causality - still is the same conclusion I reach today

I might send you one or two snippets about Germain's role on my project to see what you think, but this is besides the point.

I thought Death just served the Castle's master. This is one of the reasons I have believed Walter's Castle was in fact the first incarnation of Castlevania. However is the manga supposed to be canon? I wonder. Who actually wrote the manga and was Konami or any of the staff involved? I tend to follow the games so for now I will stick to my guns that Death follows the Castle's Master. Regardless he would have served Mathias post-acquisition of the Crimson Stone.

I forgot to mention that I also don't reaaaaaally trust this comic as a source of canon information, but there are some things in it that do make sense, and some things that I consider before completelly disregarding the comic as a totally non-canon source.

To begin with, no, it was not done by someone from the staff. HOWEVER it was supervised by IGA (source in the screenshot attached). Some plot details are different from how they transpired in the game, but I try to be lenient about this because had it gone the exact same route from the game, we'd have panels over panels of Leon doing nothing but running on hallways lol

I try to keep an open mind to certain plot details that actually do not exist in the game, and they deal with Walter's origins. Whenever the manga conflicts with the game, I favor the game. But there is not conflict with Walter because the game barely gives us anything about him.

In the game, there is zero mention about his origins or even Death's origins (Death simply appears out of nowhere having formed an allegiance with Mathias and "betraying" Walter for no specified reason). However, in the manga, this is expanded upon - Walter's soul was sold by his mother to a "demon" so she'd survive an attack by their traitorous servant. However, just before the pact is sealed, Walter does it first from the womb, selling his mother's soul to the demon and becoming a vampire. The "demon" in question is Death himself. I only know it's Death because it's said here:

Here are both sources about IGA's supervision and the demon being Death himself:

(click to show/hide)

And I'd say someone save this and post over the Castlevania Wiki because this page DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE! I took a print of it because it's still on Google's cache. But it's not forever!

But that's pretty much it, man. I can't even blame anyone who chooses to not follow this manga's plot because it simply disappeared on thin air, as if it had never existed. Such a shame.

I use it only to base the statement I made up there: Walter became a vampire through anormal means, like Dracula. Therefore he's a vampire without a master to submit to.

[zangetsu468]

The only thing I'm not really keen about is the color-coding on his clothing being a hint, and indeed I think you're reading too much into it. YET I still find even this interesting and how you strung all this together. Nice.

Thank you.

The thread you referenced was written by me. It's this one:
http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,7585.msg169532.html#msg169532

Ah, it was you? Well how appropriate is that!

I forgot to mention that I also don't reaaaaaally trust this comic as a source of canon information, but there are some things in it that do make sense, and some things that I consider before completelly disregarding the comic as a totally non-canon source.

To begin with, no, it was not done by someone from the staff. HOWEVER it was supervised by IGA (source in the screenshot attached). Some plot details are different from how they transpired in the game, but I try to be lenient about this because had it gone the exact same route from the game, we'd have panels over panels of Leon doing nothing but running on hallways lol

I try to keep an open mind to certain plot details that actually do not exist in the game, and they deal with Walter's origins. Whenever the manga conflicts with the game, I favor the game. But there is not conflict with Walter because the game barely gives us anything about him.

In the game, there is zero mention about his origins or even Death's origins (Death simply appears out of nowhere having formed an allegiance with Mathias and "betraying" Walter for no specified reason). However, in the manga, this is expanded upon - Walter's soul was sold by his mother to a "demon" so she'd survive an attack by their traitorous servant. However, just before the pact is sealed, Walter does it first from the womb, selling his mother's soul to the demon and becoming a vampire. The "demon" in question is Death himself. I only know it's Death because it's said here:

Here are both sources about IGA's supervision and the demon being Death himself:

(click to show/hide)

And I'd say someone save this and post over the Castlevania Wiki because this page DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE! I took a print of it because it's still on Google's cache. But it's not forever!

But that's pretty much it, man. I can't even blame anyone who chooses to not follow this manga's plot because it simply disappeared on thin air, as if it had never existed. Such a shame.

I use it only to base the statement I made up there: Walter became a vampire through abnormal means, like Dracula. Therefore he's a vampire without a master to submit to.

Well I would say I have no issue with the manga being followed by some as a 'canon' source of info. Given it's not published in LOI's manual (perhaps an after thought) it's the closest material to a canon source about Walter and Death's origins the public has access to, albeit very limited access.

The issue I have with Walter making a pact with Death is that it would then mean Death owns/ has dominion over Walter or at least Walter's soul (not necessarily his actions, desires and wishes etc)
However, Walter stating that Death "betrayed him" implies that:
a) Death was ranked below Walter in terms of demonic hierarchy within Walter's Castle at that point in time.
This is what I'd interpreted upon playing LOI, and bare in mind the manga would not have been out then.
b) IF Death had control/ dominion/ basically a receipt for Walter's soul, then Walter wouldn't have exclaimed Death's actions as a "betrayal" because that's what a pact is.

I see it as Death serving Walter but deciding of his own volition to then serve Mathias, which makes sense as Mathias acquired the Crimson Stone and thus superseded Walter in terms of Vampiric hierarchy.

Death also states in the ending (to Leon) "As long as my master survives [Mathias] I will rise from the dead." His master prior to Mathias' acquisition of the Crimson Stone would have been Walter, or rather whoever was Master of The Castle - another reason I believe LOI's castle is actually Castlevania.

I do find the backstory to Walter given in the manga quite interesting though. I have a similar theory about Mathias (minus the part about being in the womb) that he acquired the Crimson Stone upon making a pact with Satan. Because although it mentions the stones are products of alchemy, LOI never mentions how the stones were created as in physical manifestation.

[Nagumo]

I translated the description of Walter's backstory from a website that I found a couple of years back. It should be accurate for the most part, but maybe the sentence structure is actually a little different.

Further back in time, several hundred years ago before Leon's era, in a certain place there was a woman known as Bianca. She had become pregnant. Bianca, who together with her husband was chased out of the country* by pagan invaders, had been seperated and was moving from village to village together with her servant Volks. However, because of Volks' treachery she was mortally injured.
At the moment she was about to breathe her last, a demon appeared in front of her eyes. The demon said that he would save her life in exchange for another.
Bianca was usually a kind hearted person, but she begged the demon to save her life in exchange for the life of the child inside her stomach.
However, the demon killed Bianca. The child in her stomach was ahead of her, and had sold the life of his mother to the demon. The baby who had survived grew two fangs in his mouth. It was the birth of the vampire Walter.

*The word that is used, "kuni", could be country, but it could also be something smaller like a region, or it's supposed to refer to the birth place of the characters, I'm not sure.

[X]

After Leon defeats Walter you see/ hear something shattering, which is the Ebony Stone. This is why all of a sudden after Mathias' spiel, daybreak happens and Mathias flees leaving Death to face Leon.

It is thought that Dracula (Mathias) in all instances after this has both stones which is why the Castle or at least Dracula's throne room seems to always be encased in night. Whether he obtained the Ebony Stone from also absorbing Walter's soul and only it's power was destroyed when Leon bested Walter is a whole other question.

This is interesting, I wasn't aware that the ebony stone was anywhere in the game except in story only. However Dracula doesn't need the ebony stone in order to bring about eternal night. He can do that himself which is just one reason why he is the most powerful villain in the entire series. In all the games excluding the ones that have day/night cycle systems ie CV64/LoD and CoD) Dracula's castle is always cloaked in perpetual darkness.

[theplottwist]

In all the games excluding the ones that have day/night cycle systems ie CV64/LoD and CoD) Dracula's castle is always cloaked in perpetual darkness.

I can confirm that and go further: Dracula doesn't even need to be present at all for the castle to generate darkness by itself. This happens in SotN, Portrait, and even in the 2036 light novel the castle is surrounded by darkness and can't be seen through satellites (ok ok, the castle there isn't the real real castle, but it does have a fraction of the true castle's power).

This sure is an effect caused by the castle itself, and does not require Dracula's presence.

This is also one of the main reasons why I believe Walter's castle and Dracula's castle to be two entirely different structures. Walter's castle had no such power as Dracula's castle does.

[zangetsu468]

Damn. I must be the only one who believes LOI's castle is Castlevania.

Gents/ ladies what I would say is that Walter's soul was absorbed by Mathias, therefore either the residual power or power of the ebony stone was potentially also absorbed. Thereby Castlevania's encasement in darkness becoming permanent if even some of Dracula's power is present/ manifested. Secondly since Dracula's power/ source supposedly comes from chaos (and is fuelled by chaos) this explains why Castlevania can exhibit certain traits or manifestations prior to Lord Dracula being resurrected in the physical form.
Rinaldo explicitly states that these two stones are the "Vampire's two greatest treasures."

One last note, I still stand by Death not being Walter's master, hence the betrayal. So my query would be if Walter's Castle was indeed Walter's because he is it's Master/ Lord, then why did it not crumble as Walter was defeated? It only crumbled after Death - left there by Mathias - was defeated. One would assume it is not Death's Castle not is this ever alluded to. Hence I'm still saying it's Mathias' Castle; Castlevania.

[theplottwist]

Damn. I must be the only one who believes LOI's castle is Castlevania.

Gents/ ladies what I would say is that Walter's soul was absorbed by Mathias, therefore either the residual power or power of the ebony stone was potentially also absorbed. Thereby Castlevania's encasement in darkness becoming permanent if even some of Dracula's power is present/ manifested. Secondly since Dracula's power/ source supposedly comes from chaos (and is fuelled by chaos) this explains why Castlevania can exhibit certain traits or manifestations prior to Lord Dracula being resurrected in the physical form.
Rinaldo explicitly states that these two stones are the "Vampire's two greatest treasures."

You'll be happy to know that IGA himself called the castle "Demon Castle" multiple times while the game was in development. YET the castle stopped being called that after the game came out. So, while I think there was an intention of this castle being the same as Dracula's, I don't think this idea carried over to the end after all.

And THEN there is the issue that Dawn of Sorrow uses a image of Walter's castle to depict Celia's castle, which I consider to be an enormous hint at where the castle in Dawn came from.

There is too much here pushing me far from thinking Dracula's and Walter's are the same castle, but this is just me, of course.

One last note, I still stand by Death not being Walter's master, hence the betrayal. So my query would be if Walter's Castle was indeed Walter's because he is it's Master/ Lord, then why did it not crumble as Walter was defeated? It only crumbled after Death - left there by Mathias - was defeated. One would assume it is not Death's Castle not is this ever alluded to. Hence I'm still saying it's Mathias' Castle; Castlevania.

Just something I want to point out: I don't think Death is "Walter's master". I think they had a pact where Bianca's soul was given to Death in exchange for Walter surviving, and that's it. Death didn't turn into Walter's master, he only became an entity bound to Walter through this "exchange", but betrayed him in favor of a better pact as Mathias' servant for whatever reason.

About Walter's death, I thought about it a long time, and wasn't able to come up with a conclusion. But we do know that Dracula's castle can crumble when the one who has ownership of it is defeated (Brauner, for instance).

I'm willing to believe that this is one such case. Upon Walter's death, the castle's ownership was transferred to Death. Therefore it crumbles when Death is defeated.

[zangetsu468]

@plot I don't know what you mean about "after" LOI's release, is it the fact the game was no longer called Akumajo Dracula?

I appreciate the thought into the response, but when does the Castle canonically ever crumble in POR without Dracula being destroyed? Brauner was simply cutting off the Throne room from the rest of the Castle's power. Therefore he was pseudo-master temporarily but he was never the Castle's real Lord.

I don't personally but the transference of ownership to Death. Having betrayed Walter's pact should've caused the Castle to fall imo. That's why I believe although Walter owned the Castle, Mathias was still its Master/ Lord.

I don't have any issue with thinking this could later be Celia's.

[theplottwist]

@plot I don't know what you mean about "after" LOI's release, is it the fact the game was no longer called Akumajo Dracula?

No no, that's not it.

During development, IGA referred to Walter's castle as "Dracula's castle" and "Demon castle". However, after LoI was out, the castle was not officially called anything if I remember well (not even "Walter's castle).

I appreciate the thought into the response, but when does the Castle canonically ever crumble in POR without Dracula being destroyed? Brauner was simply cutting off the Throne room from the rest of the Castle's power. Therefore he was pseudo-master temporarily but he was never the Castle's real Lord.

Even though the bad endings are not canon, they STILL are "What if?" scenarios that follow the rules of the world they are set in. In Portrait's case, after defeating the sisters, Brauner decides to abandon his quest and the castle DOES crumble under his will, with Dracula having no say in the matter (he isn't even revived by then).

About Brauner being the master of the castle (albeit temporarily, of course):

Conversation with Wind:

(click to show/hide)

Jonathan: Sounds good to me.

Wind: Oh, one more thing... Regarding this castles's lord.

Charlotte: You mean Dracula right? I've read books about
           him.

Wind: Dracula isn't this castle's lord.

Jonathan: What do you mean? That's why they call this
          "Dracula's Castle".

Wind: It is indeed Dracula's Castle. However, the castle's
      lord is a vampire by the name of Brauner.

Charlotte: I've heard nothing about that!

Wind: As one would expect. His identity has been kept secret
      for years, after all. He infuses magic into paintings to
      increase his power. You will undoubtedly come across
      these paintings in this castle. Search for these paintings.

Charlotte: He's using the paintings to make the castle's power
           his, isn't he? Still, he isn't Dracula, after all, so
           we're safe for now.

Conversation with Brauner:

(click to show/hide)

Jonathan: You must be Brauner.

? ? ?: How dare you! Show my father some rspect!

Brauner: Calm yourself, Stella. What could they possibly know
         about respect? They're just humans, after all. Indeed,
         I am Brauner. Master of this castle.

Death's statement is NOT trusthworthy. He says that the one who owns the castle is Dracula "of course", and makes it clear that this is because he hasn't perceived Brauner yet (and this is not a bluff. Brauner later confirms that he's evading Death's detection).

(click to show/hide)

Stella: Father, you need not waste your time on such insolent
        pests.

Jonathan: What did you say?!

Loretta: Yes... Allow me to demonstrate how utterly pathetic
         they are.

Brauner: Well, no need to be hasty, dear. At the moment,
         Dracula's faithful servant is sniffling around MY
         castle. Disposing of him is our first priority.

Stella: But, father!

So, even though the castle is Dracula's, Brauner has managed to usurp him and take ownership of the castle for himself. And in the bad ending, the castle crumbles by Brauner's request/retreat.

[zangetsu468]

I give you those points on POR are good, admittedly.

For various reasons I don't necessarily agree on all the non-canon endings making logistical sense to that universe. However, let's say you're correct and take this a step further (assuming Walter's Castle is not CV). So if Joachim beats Walter (non canon ending) he becomes master of Walter's Castle, as it does not crumble, he takes the throne and assumes control of it.

Therefore with what we've said combined I'm saying in context let's take Death out of the picture (seeing as Brauner abandoning his quest means Death is still active when CV has crumbled - under Brauner's actions). If your logic is correct then I believe upon Mathias absorbing Walter's soul HE assumed ownership of Walter's Castle. He then fled as daybreak was coming, leaving the Castle's Lordship to Death. The Castle them crumbled after Death's defeat as Mathias no longer had his part in being the Castle's master.

I still have reservations, but this is the way I can rationalise what you've proposed.