Topic: Ideas For a Modern Classicvania

[Crying Freeman]

As much as I like the straight no bs whipping, there are many things about Castlevania that are nonsense. For one, why on Earth Dracula has an array of fantastical monsters from every different mythology localised entirely within his castle which can manifest at any given moment after crumbling.

Back to the whipping, anyone who has used a whip, lassoo etc in real life will know that the way the Belmonts (and Morrises) wield their Vampire Killer is not typical. One does not generally hit targets on pin point with a whip, in realtime you'd be more likely to take out a heap of lesser enemies with one attack. But this is what makes the Belmonts so damn special, they have this ability and this is partly why the chosen descendants of the Belmont lineage undergo such training.

End of the day, multidirectional whipping is to give the player more control of the protagonist, it was never about being realistic. Speaking of swords, it's not realistic for Soma to swing the Claimh Solais over his head consistently (in combo chains) without injuring his body. It's also not realistic to wake up in an eclipse, but here we are.

Yeah, CV isn't exactly about realism. About the whip, I love it, but the whip itself should be toned down in power to balance the extremely easy control of it. That's CV4's main criticism: The whip is OP.

Its a fantastic addition, but needs to be balanced out, like short whip with leather whip power, sub weapons' longer reach and morning star-like damage make them more relevant while not taking away from using the whip at all.

[Belmontoya]

I have no patience for those who gripe about the 8-way whipping. It was a debut mechanic. Egoraptors YouTube vid on this is pure garbage.

That was the best mechanic added to CV IMO. It should have been the new model.

Instead we got being able to whip diagonal down and down mid air only in bloodlines. Wtf

Then we got fucking backflips with rondo. Wtf

And then we never got a decent classicvania ever again. And our future was stuck with heroes who apparently have no ability to raise their arms above their shoulders.

Makes perfect sense.

[Crying Freeman]

I have no patience for those who gripe about the 8-way whipping. It was a debut mechanic. Egoraptors YouTube vid on this is pure garbage.

That was the best mechanic added to CV IMO. It should have been the new model.

Instead we got being able to whip diagonal down and down mid air only in bloodlines. Wtf

Then we got fucking backflips with rondo. Wtf

And then we never got a decent classicvania ever again. And our future was stuck with heroes who apparently have no ability to raise their arms above their shoulders.

Makes perfect sense.

I feel your frustration. Egoraptor seemed to ignore the fact that CV4 wouldnt be CV4 if it didn't have the 8 way whip, and while he said he didn't think it was a bad game, he sure made it sound like a shitty game. I know it's subjective whether someone likes or dislikes it, but common, Egoraptor can't sit there and say it's a problem to the extent he said. Sure, it's over the top comedy, but I'm not talking about that side of it.

I mean he made the game sound like a complete fail because it was the only thing he focused on in the entire video. He's right, the 8 way whip defeats the purpose of using sub weapons in a CV1 or 3 way, but it can help you clear enemies faster, which is something he did ignore. If you have the cross, it will anihilate everything. Knives are a bit faster and good in some places. Axes are good with a triple shot.
I'll also say, one bit of footage he showed to prove his point, the one with the holy water on the mudmen, he was whipping straight................. does he know thats not the same as up or diagonal up? That mudman would be toast against CV1-2 Simon or Trevor LOL

I don't mean to go off topic, but another thing he said in that sequelitis that had me scratching my head was the bit where he says the devs should've focused on more whip mechanics. Sure, the only one they really implemented was the bat ring swing (had to make that rhyme  ), but one animation he showed had Simon on a moving batring, which YOU DO later in the game! Only difference is you're not moving up and down from spikey wall hazards... But wait, if I remember correctly he said he hadn't beaten the game and in the GameGrumps run he never got past stage, so he wouldn't know that a part like that existed in the game. Then another, if you're good enough you can reach those secret areas in stage 9 with the whip ring-jump to ring bits (and it's mandatory at the quickgold part (quicksand gold??).

I think sequelitis videos are EXTREMELY well made, but the way he nitpicks can get on my nerves. The entertainment and enjoyment I get from them outweighs those bits, but like in OOT, he criticised the linearity of ALTTP and OOT, and while I'm no Zelda fan (how dare me), I don't see how thats such a gamebreaker. It's still open world, your tasks are just laid out linearly. I'm not saying the guy can't have an opinion cus everyone obviously can, but it's SOOOOO nitpicky. Doesn't he realize they're trying to tell a bigger story? Of course they're gonna have some linearity in the game.


Last thing I'll say, he and many others criticize CV2 for SUPER cryptic shit, but it's OK in Zelda 1?? Sure, CV2 had it to REDICULOUS proportions, but Zelda 1 was pretty fucking hard to find my way around in. I needed a walkthrough multiple times for that game, and I HATE the control! Is it OK to be the only person who doesn't like Zelda 1?...  Lol I'm starting to sound like him... Imma mr. hypocrisy over here

[X]

The only sequelitis of Egoraptor's I enjoyed watching, and which was very informative and funny at the same time was CV1 Vs CV 2. That was the only one worth watching and he brought out lots of interesting points (both good and bad things about CV2). He has not done a well-reviewed sequelitis since that time so it is what I consider a one-hit wonder.

8-directional whipping was a new mechanic--first, and only introduced in SCV4. We never saw it again. Both CV X68000 (Chronicles) and CV Bloodlines had multi-directional attacking with the whip but both were limited variations. Was the whip overpowered in SCV4? Not really for me as I had a tough time playing through the game when it was new at the time. A weapon can be overpowered but the game itself can still give you grief with other things like stage layouts, traps, etc. What good is an overpowered weapon if you get caught in a trap? Or an enemy takes you out from a perilous point in a stage and knocks you into a pit? SCV4 worked for what it was and it was new step for the franchise at the time. But with all that it is, I would not change a single thing in that game, even now.

[zangetsu468]

@Freeman To be fair Zelda 1's cryptic shit made more sense. You also didn't also have to go into the pause screen to equip special items for them to take effect if this applies.

Example: Impa says "go north, west, south, west"
The lost woods are right there so in context yes it makes more sense than say cv2's
"A crooked trader is offering bum deals.." Or "Stay back!!"

[Crying Freeman]

The only sequelitis of Egoraptor's I enjoyed watching, and which was very informative and funny at the same time was CV1 Vs CV 2. That was the only one worth watching and he brought out lots of interesting points (both good and bad things about CV2). He has not done a well-reviewed sequelitis since that time so it is what I consider a one-hit wonder.

8-directional whipping was a new mechanic--first, and only introduced in SCV4. We never saw it again. Both CV X68000 (Chronicles) and CV Bloodlines had multi-directional attacking with the whip but both were limited variations. Was the whip overpowered in SCV4? Not really for me as I had a tough time playing through the game when it was new at the time. A weapon can be overpowered but the game itself can still give you grief with other things like stage layouts, traps, etc. What good is an overpowered weapon if you get caught in a trap? Or an enemy takes you out from a perilous point in a stage and knocks you into a pit? SCV4 worked for what it was and it was new step for the franchise at the time. But with all that it is, I would not change a single thing in that game, even now.

Working for what it is is how I describe CV4. I understand why x68000 and Bloodlines removed it, but its such a fun and useful mechanic. Plus it would've made sense in Bloodlines since the whip is really short anyway.

And you mention the traps, which would catch almost anyone on their first try, by getting knocked back or not jumping in time. It's still a challenging game, and like I said, he couldn't get past stage 8, ironically because of the traps at the end. He couldn't figure out you could crouchwall under the spikes. And you mentioned newcomers: I got my ass handed to me a lot when I was younger, but it wasn't so ridiculous that I couldn't beat it, which is one of the great things about CV4; the difficulty feels fair and balanced in a way different from CV1

I forgot to mention that the subweapons help quite a bit on harder loops. My only real gripe with the game was the hit detection when it comes to hitting multiple things;
Throw an axe, falls into 2 bats, only one gets killed. Throw one up to hit a far away enemy, if it hits a candle then it won't register hitting that enemy. It gets REALLY annoying in tight spot, especially if you like to speed through the game and use the sub weapons to help with that.

[Crying Freeman]

@Freeman To be fair Zelda 1's cryptic shit made more sense. You also didn't also have to go into the pause screen to equip special items for them to take effect if this applies.

Example: Impa says "go north, west, south, west"
The lost woods are right there so in context yes it makes more sense than say cv2's
"A crooked trader is offering bum deals.." Or "Stay back!!"

Yeah, there's no hiding that CV2 is easily one of the most cryptic games ever made. REALLY needed true in game clues, which Zelda does have.

I admit Zelda 1 isnt near the most cryptic game, but I did personally have some trouble. Plus I hate the clunky control over link in that one. It is a REALLY fun game to play with Zelda fans, though.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I'd love a Classicvania prequel to Circle of the Moon surrounding Morris Baldwin's initial slaying of Dracula.

I think it would be pretty awesomely meta to have the "old" slaying in Classicvania style, and then Nathan Graves, the "successor", in COTM is faster, more agile, and energetic in his gameplay style.

Also, that alternate timeline seems like it had some neat promise that never got borne out-- a world completely without Alucard or the Belmonts is worth exploring. Maybe it's more crapsack than the "usual" Castlevania as the heroes are even more helpless against Dracula with the exception of the occasional Hail Mary that happens to work out.

[Crying Freeman]

I'd love a Classicvania prequel to Circle of the Moon surrounding Morris Baldwin's initial slaying of Dracula.

I think it would be pretty awesomely meta to have the "old" slaying in Classicvania style, and then Nathan Graves, the "successor", in COTM is faster, more agile, and energetic in his gameplay style.

Also, that alternate timeline seems like it had some neat promise that never got borne out-- a world completely without Alucard or the Belmonts is worth exploring. Maybe it's more crapsack than the "usual" Castlevania as the heroes are even more helpless against Dracula with the exception of the occasional Hail Mary that happens to work out.

Why don't we have this?? That'd be fucking awesome! When I was younger I thought COTM might've been a sequel cus if Morris's past slaying of Drac. I did confuse my cus all I knew at the time were Simon and Reinhardt lol.

[X]

I'd love a Classicvania prequel to Circle of the Moon surrounding Morris Baldwin's initial slaying of Dracula.

Don't forget that Nathan's parents were there as well. I think exploring more of CotM would be interesting and help to scratch that CV itch.

[Crying Freeman]

Don't forget that Nathan's parents were there as well. I think exploring more of CotM would be interesting and help to scratch that CV itch.

Hmmmm. I can see a good fanfic out of this. Maybe Hugh and Nathan being left behind while Morris and the Graves parents fight off Drac

[chainsawmidget]

Loves himself, obsessed with being beautiful/ self image, loves a bad pun (like "Secret Asians"), insecure as a schoolgirl and ....
The golorious CHIN!!!

This summer... Bruce Campbell IS Simon Belmont!

[Lumi Kløvstad]

This summer... Bruce Campbell IS Simon Belmont!

I would pay good money to see a B-Movie Castlevania adaptation starring Bruce Campbell.
Make it something in line with the tone of the Evil Dead films, and we'd be looking at a golden thing.

[Inccubus]

Last thing I'll say, he and many others criticize CV2 for SUPER cryptic shit, but it's OK in Zelda 1??

No. That's why I've never really every played much of it to this day. In fact, I would argue that Zelda 1 is more cryptic in general since there are basically no clues at all. CV2 is a slightly different beast because of the purposefully misleading NPCs which is only compounded by the mostly garbage translation.


About the 8-way whip.
What some of you guys don't seem to remember was that the problem with it was a combination of it letting you attack more freely and the fact that the much larger Simon sprite gives you mad reach.
I was one of the people that played the game from day 1, and almost never needed to use sub-weapons at all. I never used the knife at all because it's speed is not much better than the whip and it's damage output is inferior with a diminished relevance for it's reach. I used the cross just because I liked it in general since CV1 and could execute multiple hits per use at the same damage level as the whip.
Egoraptor was right that they didn't balance the game to compensate for the greater power the player now had.
I do like the solution of simply reducing the whip's damage, but I also think that the sub weapons could be made more useful and versatile.
Whip: The simplest fix after a damage reduction is to scale Simon's sprite back down to a more reasonable size along the lines of Richter.
Knife: make it much faster and make it 8-way, too. Maybe even make it rapid fire by default and the shot power ups increase it to 4 & 6 shots.
Axe: Give it a variable arch. Holding up will make it go even higher, but less forward range. Holding down gives you a lower height bit it goes much farther. And just for fun charge it to use it like short range boomerang like in Vampire Killer.
Cross: No change needed really. It's already pretty powerful.
Holy Water: Make the flame a larger and last longer. Hold up to throw it farther. And make the vial shatter on contact with enemies causing a mid-air fireball instead of going through them. Hold down to roll it along the floor where it'll be able to go through small spaces and it will spontaneously explode at a fixed distance if it doesn't collide with anything.
Stop Watch: Allow it to slow down most earlier bosses. Double and Triple Shot extend it's duration instead of basically just making it easier for you to waste hearts.

[Crying Freeman]

No. That's why I've never really every played much of it to this day. In fact, I would argue that Zelda 1 is more cryptic in general since there are basically no clues at all. CV2 is a slightly different beast because of the purposefully misleading NPCs which is only compounded by the mostly garbage translation.


About the 8-way whip.
What some of you guys don't seem to remember was that the problem with it was a combination of it letting you attack more freely and the fact that the much larger Simon sprite gives you mad reach.
I was one of the people that played the game from day 1, and almost never needed to use sub-weapons at all. I never used the knife at all because it's speed is not much better than the whip and it's damage output is inferior with a diminished relevance for it's reach. I used the cross just because I liked it in general since CV1 and could execute multiple hits per use at the same damage level as the whip.
Egoraptor was right that they didn't balance the game to compensate for the greater power the player now had.
I do like the solution of simply reducing the whip's damage, but I also think that the sub weapons could be made more useful and versatile.
Whip: The simplest fix after a damage reduction is to scale Simon's sprite back down to a more reasonable size along the lines of Richter.
Knife: make it much faster and make it 8-way, too. Maybe even make it rapid fire by default and the shot power ups increase it to 4 & 6 shots.
Axe: Give it a variable arch. Holding up will make it go even higher, but less forward range. Holding down gives you a lower height bit it goes much farther. And just for fun charge it to use it like short range boomerang like in Vampire Killer.
Cross: No change needed really. It's already pretty powerful.
Holy Water: Make the flame a larger and last longer. Hold up to throw it farther. And make the vial shatter on contact with enemies causing a mid-air fireball instead of going through them. Hold down to roll it along the floor where it'll be able to go through small spaces and it will spontaneously explode at a fixed distance if it doesn't collide with anything.
Stop Watch: Allow it to slow down most earlier bosses. Double and Triple Shot extend it's duration instead of basically just making it easier for you to waste hearts.

Glad to see another non-Zelda 1 fan. Back to discussion, he is right, as much as we don't like to hear it. I played back in the early 2000s but SNES was all I really played, and yes, since I started I've never used the sub weapons a lot. I only used them when I thought I was smart using them XD.

Your ideas for the different sub weapons I think are fantastic! I never  really found Simons sprite super large compared to Richeter personally (in Dracula X I recall it  being the same or similar size, haven't played Rondo as much so I assume it's a smaller sprite in Rondo). I can see a combination of what HoDespear and classicvania did: have bits of normal CV zoom in, but them have the stages zoom in or out in certain situations. Could be good if done right, but it'd be easier sticking to the original view.

I remember a fan game I was excited as hell for called Castlevania 4 Reborn, but the project seems like it won't see the light of day. I read a thread of it in here, too. I liked what I saw, even with its issues, I thought it'd be a great game. I especially loved the soundtrack, which the composer put up for streaming on SoundCloud, and I highly recommend it, its fantastic!

https://m.soundcloud.com/search?q=super%20castlevania%204%20reborn

I could see your ideas for the subweapons working in that game, as the scale of the levels seems much bigger in general, and Simon's size in the game can work.