Topic: Ideas For a Modern Classicvania

[X]

The simplest fix after a damage reduction is to scale Simon's sprite back down to a more reasonable size along the lines of Richter.

I doubt this would work as Simon's CV4 sprite is only 2 pixels over Richter's. There's not a whole lot of height difference in that regard. However in a different thread where we were all talking about the length of the VK. Doppelganger Trevor has the longest VK in the series and it even overshoots CV4's VK whip. So in this case the changing or adjusting of sprites probably won't make a difference.

[TheTextGuy]

Say, how do you guys think Bloodlines compares with SCIV when it comes to multi-directional attacks?
I recall that since Morris couldn't attack upwards with the whip on the ground (and since the jump mechanics were like the NES games), the axe was somewhat viable when you're stuck on the ground.  I can't say much about Lecarde since I didn't play as him much :/

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Say, how do you guys think Bloodlines compares with SCIV when it comes to multi-directional attacks?
I recall that since Morris couldn't attack upwards with the whip on the ground (and since the jump mechanics were like the NES games), the axe was somewhat viable when you're stuck on the ground.  I can't say much about Lecarde since I didn't play as him much :/

Bloodlines probably had the best balance of control-power-usefulness between whip and subweapons that I can recall. Chronicles/X68000 kind of nerfed the striking power of the whip, making multidirectional attacks kind of pointless if you have enough hearts and a decent (read: non dagger) subweapon.

Post Symphony games simply let you twirl or flail the whip, but it did almost no damage and was pretty much just a defensive tactic.

Bloodlines also let you use the whip to swing across almost any gap if you had a nearby ceiling to stick it to, instead of at defined points like Super and Lords of Shadow.

[X]

I recall that since Morris couldn't attack upwards with the whip on the ground (and since the jump mechanics were like the NES games), the axe was somewhat viable when you're stuck on the ground.

Eh, so-so. Morris can attack upwards but only at 45 degree angles. This also allows him to latch onto any ceiling/platform and whip-swing his way across pits.

[Crying Freeman]

Say, how do you guys think Bloodlines compares with SCIV when it comes to multi-directional attacks?
I recall that since Morris couldn't attack upwards with the whip on the ground (and since the jump mechanics were like the NES games), the axe was somewhat viable when you're stuck on the ground.  I can't say much about Lecarde since I didn't play as him much :/

I know its not bad, but I have a hard time getting used to it cus I'm not a big Bloodlines player. The whips length staying short is a nice touch I think, making you use far reaching subweapons a lot.

It's helpful in many areas, and the swinging is really fun to use once you get used to it. Something else I liked about the whip in Bloodlines was how you could hold the attack button down and John would keep the whip out for an extra second, doing double damage with one swing.

[X]

Something else I liked about the whip in Bloodlines was how you could hold the attack button down and John would keep the whip out for an extra second, doing double damage with one swing.

Right! Forgot about that. It was very handy when you wanted to get in that extra hit before retreating from an enemy attack.

[Belmontoya]

I got Bloodlines the day it came out.

I was beyond excited.

I loved the goriness and the extra player.

But I also remember feeling that everything was inferior to CV4. The mechanics, the graphics, the music. Everything.

While I love it, I still feel that same way about it. They should have made the whip mechanic as identical to CV4 as they could.

Instead we got a system that feels unfinished, with illogical limitations.

[Inccubus]

It's helpful in many areas, and the swinging is really fun to use once you get used to it. Something else I liked about the whip in Bloodlines was how you could hold the attack button down and John would keep the whip out for an extra second, doing double damage with one swing.

The Alucard Spear does the same thing in that game. I'm probably one of the few people that liked playing Bloodline with Eric more than with John.

I doubt this would work as Simon's CV4 sprite is only 2 pixels over Richter's. There's not a whole lot of height difference in that regard. However in a different thread where we were all talking about the length of the VK. Doppelganger Trevor has the longest VK in the series and it even overshoots CV4's VK whip. So in this case the changing or adjusting of sprites probably won't make a difference.

My mistake. I remembered there being a bigger difference.
So a more proper contrast would be with the original NES games. Compare the length of the whip in CV1, SCV4, CVDXX.
SCV4 has a Vampire Killer that is 1.5x longer than CV1, but the screen resolution is the same.
Add to that the fact that you can cover 8x  more area at will and that greatly reduces the usefulness of the sub-weapons.
This is the reason why in the other games that came out after, that had similar sized sprites, also had reduced versatility for the whip.
Eventually, you get to Rondo which has a somewhat shorter whip and a single attack direction.

PS- Added a pic of Bloodlines, too.

[Belmontoya]

I don't agree with the useless sub weapon gripe.

subweapons are not useless in CV4. They are improved with their own dedicated button allowing for better use on stairs and the ability to throw them crouched. It's funny how people forget about that.

On top of that they are easily upgraded with the double and triple shots making them absolutely useful.

The knife and holy water are about as useless as they've always been. So there's no real grounds for gripes there.

The game is solid. It's different, and better for it.

Bloodlines graphics are clunky and less refined. Just look at Johnathan. His sprites are the ugliest I've seen on a CV protagonist. The music sound quality falls short of CV4, as well as the compositions IMO. 

And as far as environments and scenarios, CV4 blows it away. Functioning draw bridges, rotating rooms, massive boss fights, portraits that come alive and grab your hand as you pass, swinging chandeliers, a ghost who cries over his lost pet... This is just the tip of the ice berg.

I will forever be perplexed by the idea of putting Bloodlins above SCV4.

I love Bloodlines to death as well. Play it all the time. But to me it's seemed of lower quality compared to SCV4 from day 1.

[piscesdreams]

I've always treated Bloodlines the same way I will Lords of Shadow, as side stories or alternate universe canon. Same with Portrait of Ruin. That said, Bloodlines is a FANTASTIC game, I've always loved the feel of the controls in the game, but SCIV will always be king in my eyes in every single way.

[Crying Freeman]

For Bloodlines, it is fantastic, but I never really play it. Hell, I've played The Adventure more than it (not saying adventure is better  , far from it). The controls are tight and responsive as hell, but there's something about moving John and Eric that I don't like. I can't place my finger on it, but their walking and jumps, plus their sprites seem a bit spastic. Plus, John's tiny head in proportion to the gigantic fucking arms always bugged me and seems goofy, but thats just me. I also didn't like how the whip was slower while crouched, which is more realistic, but again that's just me.

I still have an absolute blast playing, and I get used to the above issues rather quickly, but that might be one reason I don't play it as much. With the adventure I guess it's so simple and barebones I put up with its MUCH more flawed design (one reason I like Valis 1 for Genesis).

Another thing I absolutely dig in Bloodlines is its focus on horror and gore. Rondo, Dawn and PoR pissed me off (judgement was at least a spinoff) in that they ditched the horror and Gothic nature. I can't stand the overt anime style in them (In a bit of a hypocrite here cus I like the style in Legends,  it I guess because it reminds me more of Manwha than Manga or Anime, plus the lack of cutscenes makes you forget about its artstyle a bit). Bloodlines did carry on the fantastic attention to detail in its horror set pieces, such as the leadup to the boss of the Verseilles Palace, which was fucking awesome!
Besides that I HATE the tricky bits, like the multiple broken off layers part in the final stage.

I think I need to play Bloodlines more to get a better feel for it, And hopefully change my mind on the issues I mentioned above. Besides that, it does have one of my favorite CV songs, Iron Blue Intention.

Last thing I'll say: CV4 may seem like an extra step in a sequel sense of us because of the name, but it IS a remaketo the Japanese audience, and just called Akumajo Dracula again. Sure, later games do take ideas from CV4, like Slogra and Gaiben, the whip twirling, the swinging, and attacking in multiple direction in a more restricted sense, but perhaps the game doesn't seem like such a big deal to the country who produced the games for ages, because it's essentially the same idea as Akumajo Dracula X68000/Chronicles, which nobody makes a big deal about in terms of fanfare (even tho we all agree its a fantastic game) and references are limited to a few enemies and sprites for later games. Maybe what I'm saying is it doesn't stand out as much to the Japanese, because there are so many Akumajo Draculas with the same story. It won't stand out as much as Akumajo Densetsu or Vampire Killer. And the games sales, which I've heard on wikipedia so take that with a grain of salt, were only modest. But marketing it as a sequel was a better move for US and PAL regions.

[Jago]

sry delete plz 

[Inccubus]

I don't agree with the useless sub weapon gripe.

subweapons are not useless in CV4. They are improved with their own dedicated button allowing for better use on stairs and the ability to throw them crouched. It's funny how people forget about that.

On top of that they are easily upgraded with the double and triple shots making them absolutely useful.

The knife and holy water are about as useless as they've always been. So there's no real grounds for gripes there.

The game is solid. It's different, and better for it.

I've never forgotten about the dedicated button for the sub-weapons SCV4, but that is a feature that really doesn't do much for the effectiveness of the sub-weapons.
Yes, it makes them more convenient to use, but the 8-way whip makes the whip way more effective as a main weapon.
Couple this with the fact you can now reach almost half the screen at will with minimal aiming on the player's part and it greatly diminishes the utility of the sub-weapons all of which are nearly identical to their 8-bat counterparts.
The fact that they are not really different in the face of the vastly improved whip is more than enough grounds to criticize this aspect of the game.
I personally didn't find the sub-weapons useful in the same way as in earlier games. And it wasn't for lack of trying.

Don't get me wrong, I love SCV4 and is my favorite remake of CV1. But it does have it's flaws.

[Belmontoya]

I've never forgotten about the dedicated button for the sub-weapons SCV4, but that is a feature that really doesn't do much for the effectiveness of the sub-weapons.
Yes, it makes them more convenient to use, but the 8-way whip makes the whip way more effective as a main weapon.
Couple this with the fact you can now reach almost half the screen at will with minimal aiming on the player's part and it greatly diminishes the utility of the sub-weapons all of which are nearly identical to their 8-bat counterparts.
The fact that they are not really different in the face of the vastly improved whip is more than enough grounds to criticize this aspect of the game.
I personally didn't find the sub-weapons useful in the same way as in earlier games. And it wasn't for lack of trying.

Don't get me wrong, I love SCV4 and is my favorite remake of CV1. But it does have it's flaws.

It's different, not a flaw. That's what I take issue with.

The sub-weapons are treated differently. They are not always necessary, but often useful. And as I said above, and you admitted, they are improved on as well. The dedicated sub weapon button made a huge difference to me.

SCV4 is an easier game to get into, and it's made to be that way. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's certainly not a flaw as most complaints about the series before it were that the difficulty was too high. It's a logical progression.

Not only does the improved whipping make it easier, but also does the other improved mechanics, like the sub-weapons, jumping on and off stairs, and the crouch walking. These were all new things in SCV4 and things my child self jumped up and down about when the game came out. But again, no one ever mentions those features when talking about why the game is easier to play.

What do players considered balanced? The over the top difficulty of most other classicvanias? Or the easier leveling up style metroidvanias? Personally I think SCV4 offers the perfect difficulty level for most players. It seems to me to be just the right porridge.

Pointing out that the whip is longer in SCV4 versus past CV's doesn't mean that the game is out of whack and balance. All it means is that the whip is longer and the game is slightly less difficult in some situations. There is nothing deductive about that.

I'll say it again. It's a bogus gripe that's been perpetuated by a bogus youtube video.

To get back on track..

Wouldn't it be marvelous to see an open world Castlevania built on the SCV4 engine? Yes. It would probably be the best thing ever.

[zangetsu468]

Just as a sidebar on what Belmontoya has stated. If SCIV is so popular, why has Konami not capitalised on its success the same way Nintendo has with ALBW? Somethings not right... That something is Konami.