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Offline zangetsu468

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Legend of Zelda Hyrule Historia timelines explained
« on: November 09, 2015, 09:06:27 PM »
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    I've been sitting on this timeline theory for a good while now, trying to rationalise how Hyrule Historia's 3 timelines work in conjuction or rather in sequence so that every outcome happens. What I mean by this is that HH writes the Downfall timeline in which the Hero of Time from OOT loses to Ganondorf as an alternate event or "what if" scenario to OOT. My theory hypothesises why there are 3 outcomes after OOT which includes another event unseen in OOT, explained in the attached image and below.

    Let me first start by saying this theory although inspired partly by VortexxyGaming's video of the Zelda downfall timeline, is in no way a ripoff of her theory. Granted there are similarities (hence the inspiration) but I'm an avid fan and subscriber to her channel and others alike who may have similar theories. Vortexxy hypothesised something alone the lines of after initially losing to Ganon, the Goddess of Time sent Link back to before the fight which subsequently was won by Link. This got me thinking...

    I don't know how much detail to go into, but let's start at the......
Hero's Downfall Timeline:
There is a version of events which happens prior to OOT which I've labelled as the OOT Prologue.
In this version of events, things are different. Notably the differences to OOT are:
- Child Link withdraws the Master Sword without his spirit being put to sleep for 7 years -  POINT (A)
- This still triggers the door to the Sacred Realm to open.
- Ganon still follows Link into the Sacred Realm, meaning he ceases his pursuit of Zelda/ Impa on horseback shortly after he's seen by Child Link in said pursuit (Zelda then throwing the Ocarina of Time into Hyrule Castle Town's moat)
- Shortly after the events above, Ganon still obtains the Triforce, and it still splits, dividing between himself, Link and Zelda - the same way it did in OOT i.e. Power = Ganon, Courage = Link, Wisdom = Zelda.
- Child Zelda (perhaps with Impa) winds up facing Ganondorf in a final showdown alongside Child Link. Child Link/ Zelda can not win against Ganondorf as they're not strong enough
- The Triforce resonates as it did by will of Ganondorf similarly to OOT's Ganondorf battle/ WW's Ganondorf battle, with him managing to pry the Triforce of Wisdom and Courage from the bodies of Zelda and Link. He touches the Triforce becoming the creature known as 'Ganon', as stated in HH.
- Zelda summons the sages (not the same sages as OOT as they were not awakened, these would be the ancient sages from TP) to seal Ganon into the Sacred Realm - more than likely just prior to him making his wish.
- Zelda grabs the Ocarina of Time from Link and plays Zelda's lullaby, sending Child Link back to the point right before he withdrew the Master Sword - POINT (B)*
- Upon drawing the Master Sword (POINT B) divine forces - let's say The Goddesses - put Link's soul to sleep for a specific amount of time (in this case 7 years) so that his body could mature, allowing him to be able to face Ganondorf, which he was unable to do as a Child.**
- The rest of OOT ensues as the gamer would play from POINT (B) onward; Ganondorf overthrowing Hyrule Castle and building Ganon's fortress.

*Child Link does not remember what happened prior to POINT (B) because he did not have the Triforce of Courage anymore, Ganon had stripped him of it. This is important, because Triforce pieces protect their wielders as demonstrated in TP (Ganon survived death and the Twilight Realm, Zelda survived the Twilight by maintaining her human form, Link survived the Twilight by becoming a wolf aka the spirit of the 'divine beast') but also in OOT by Zelda becoming Shiek to disguise herself from Ganondorf, and Link being able to time travel between times without any loss/ overwriting of memory or negative effects to his physical state of being. This 'protection' from the Goddesses is also evident in that OOT's normal playthrough and ending involves Link going back to Child Zelda in the Child timeline for the benefit of the Hylians. In addition to this Zelda does state in MM that "The Goddess of Time will protect You[Link]". Whether in context this was directed to Farore's protection of Link is not 100% clear, but it does directly demonstrate protection from a relevant Goddess.

** After POINT (B) Link still travels between being a Child and Adult to awaken the sages, however he does not face Ganondorf as a Child and is unable to use the Master Sword as a Child without moving 7 years into the future. This is why even though after the first instance of Child Link withdrawing the Master Sword and Ganon obtaining the Triforce of Power, Link is still able to travel through "the door between times" and can never fully draw the Master Sword in his Child form.

Let me state that as an avid theorist of timelines, especially with Zelda, I've been through the OOT text dump several times as well as finishing the game multiple times. There is plenty of text to support the fact that the way Zelda had intended to play out. Namely with Link/ Zelda getting into the Sacred Realm and finding the Triforce so that they could have the power to defeat Ganon. To further support this theory, the text inscription on the Pedestal of Time in the Temple of Time actually changes between the Child and Adult segments of OOT. The Child segment states something along the lines of "Place the 3 spiritual Stones on the pedestal and play the Ocarina of Time" where as the Adult segment says something like "The Hero of Time, with the 3 spiritual stones and the Ocarina of Time, descended here..". Although 7 years had passed, nobody but Ganondorf and Rauru (who kept Link's body in the Chamber of Sages for 7 years) would have known Link's spirit was put to sleep - possibly other than Zelda. Therefore I propose that initially this was not meant to occur, something changed the Hero of Time's destiny which imo was the theory in discussion. To add to this, disregarding SS in the context OOT was released, Link meets Zelda for the first time and she says that his name "sounds familiar". These reasons and more are precisely why I'm hypothesising the OOT Prologue.

However, events did not play out as Zelda intended and there was no guarantee that obtaining the Triforce would have worked in their favour against Ganon, as it may have split for either Link or Zelda (not just Ganondorf). The only surefire way to defeat Ganondorf was with the Master Sword which can deflect the Triforce's power (if that power is evil) and we know from SS when the Master Sword was
(click to show/hide)
that this is why it is able to do this. Because of this, The Goddesses' intervention put Link's spirit to sleep to ensure he was physically capable of defeating Ganondorf. It is clear from the first playthrough of OOT when Child Link draws his sword against a Triforce-of-Power-less Ganondorf, he is still no match being floored by a single energy blast.

If my theory is correct, perhaps this could also explain why Link has a dream at the start of OOT taking place just prior to POINT (A) being an important junction point in time where the flow of time seems to alter with each re-visit.

In summary, the version of OOT that we play as the gamer has omitted the aforementioned "Prologue" as it would've entailed actually losing to Ganondorf for the game to progress. Nintendo had also probably not thought about timeline implications as seriously at the time when LOZ's continuum was still relatively linear. Or they may have just wanted each entry to be self-contained as they've previously explained and therefore left it to the perception of the gamers, without drawing out the length of the game and/ or compromising its integrity as a stand alone title (whose popularity speaks for itself.)

I make these assumptions based on the idea that the downfall timeline has to exist, it is as valid a timeline as both the Child and Adult timelines are. It can be argued that although the Child Timeline is the true timeline as it follows the Hero of Time's lineage from MM>>>FSA. However, most of the games do fall onto the downfall timeline. Therefore I see no reason as to why it should be an overwritten timeline, added that the previous 2 Zelda games have also fallen into this timeline. In addition, regardless of what this means for the placement of LOZ>AOL, we now know that
(click to show/hide)

PS: I still can't work out how to actually "post" an image rather than attach it, so I've attached it.

Thanks to whoever is reading!

zangetsu468

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« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 12:41:47 AM by zangetsu468 »
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Offline X

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Re: Legend of Zelda Hyrule Historia timelines explained
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2015, 12:39:35 AM »
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Personally I feel that Shigeru Miyamoto let loose a monster that he can no-longer control. And I feel it first started with the creation of OoT. The whole Zelda timeline is extremely convoluted it's any wonder anyone can begin to make sense of it. My hat goes off to those that have braved the attempt (you too zangetsu468  ;)). For me the only timeline I will follow is 'A link to the past' (Triforce of the gods), Link's Awakening, The Legend of Zelda, and finally Zelda II: The Adventures of Link. In other words the four classic games that made the series the icon it is today. Why, in all that is sacred in videogames, did Shigeru Miyamoto continue making Zelda games that went further and further back in time, rather then doing the smart thing and make sequels instead, I'll never understand. The four games mentioned above round off the series nicely and it should have been left that way. We still could have gotten all these other Zelda game, they just wouldn't have been prior to AlttP or in a separate timeline all-together. What a mess... The Zelda timeline--by far--overshadows the Castlevania timeline and that's saying something!
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Legend of Zelda Hyrule Historia timelines explained
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2015, 12:54:04 AM »
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Thanks for reading/ commenting X.
I've been on the Zelda timeline ever since the days of ALTTP>LA>LOZ>AOL, and I completely understand what you're saying.
I also believe that since Aonuma has been more heavily involved with the Zelda franchise, the games have been more timeline-aware shall we say. I don't think Miyamoto really gives a shit about the timeline, which would explain why he basically replaced the term/ story element of "Triforce" with "Trident" and shoe-horned it into the Child Timeline where avid theorists could argue not being where it truly belongs.

I've been a Zelda 'splitist' for a very long time - prior to when it was popular - and had some pretty heated debates with different theorists back in the day, much like the CVD used to be. I was actually going to post this on a couple of Zelda sites like ZU, but it doesn't seem like my ID is even valid any longer. Thus I'm posting on CVD which has always been around so long as I've actively sought interest in CV/ gaming. Props to CVD for keeping it real.

As much as I agree that making prequels didn't make much sense, I think Zelda has always been about civilisation, history and 'Legend'. Thus as more of this is difficult to explore moving forward in a chronological sense, they started moving backward. The more we go backward, the more we see history deviates ever so slightly from actual events which take place. Sometimes even creating parallel/ multiple events.

I don't like the idea of the original timeline you've mentioned being obsolete, re-iterating that it's still being kept alive through the most recent Zelda games... Hence I will also keep the downfall timeline alive!


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Re: Legend of Zelda Hyrule Historia timelines explained
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 01:33:56 AM »
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Really interesting read and Vortexxy's video, too. (I subscribed after watching.)
I never agreed with the official timeline as it was presented in HH and I feel that the the fans have done a much better job here of explaining how a third timeline could exist. Plus these explanations shed a more positive light on the "downfall" timeline which is refreshing after the rather negative tone I got from HH concerning the classic games.
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Legend of Zelda Hyrule Historia timelines explained
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 01:52:30 AM »
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Really interesting read and Vortexxy's video, too. (I subscribed after watching.)
I never agreed with the official timeline as it was presented in HH and I feel that the the fans have done a much better job here of explaining how a third timeline could exist. Plus these explanations shed a more positive light on the "downfall" timeline which is refreshing after the rather negative tone I got from HH concerning the classic games.

Thanks Inccubus. VortexxyGaming is probably my favourite theorist at the moment and I'd definitely recommend her.
Although I didn't agree with her take on the Zelda II: AOL ending in relation to this theory mainly because
(click to show/hide)
However, her conceptual ideas are very well thought out and the evidence she uses to back those concepts make for very clear and concise theories. On a side note her voice/ accent sounds familiar and reminds of that ASMRtist Lillium, how trippy would it be if they were the same person.. (Now that's a fan theory :-)

As a longtime fan I was never really on board with Nintendo reverting to Schrodinger's cat, particularly not after a clean timeline split between TP and WW. In actual fact, the timeline image I posted is part of a much larger document (starting to sound like Nintendo...) which I've been working on - currently on the backburner - for a number of months. Some day I'd really like to start a website dedicated to out there theories about LOZ as well as other games. I wouldn't mind including Castlevania on this either. 
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Re: Legend of Zelda Hyrule Historia timelines explained
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2015, 12:30:48 AM »
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Agreed.

I have a different take on some of the placements as well.
What do you think about this idea.
It's rather simplistic and lacks some really concrete evidence, however...

Simply put, OoA/OoS and LA take place after AoL not after ALttP.

My reasoning:

1) The idea that the Link from LA is the same one from ALttP is wrong. The Link in LA is simply stated to have previously defeated Ganon. At the time the only logical choice was the ALttP Link because there were no other games that matched. The other thing that is cited as evidence is that in the BS AST game Zelda states that the Link from ALttP is away from Hyrule on a training mission. It is assumed this training mission is LA, but AST isn't itself canon anyway.

2) LA has been concretely placed as the sequel to the Oracle games via the ending depicting Link sailing back to Hyrule in a ship that is very similar to the one from LA.

3) At the beginning of OoX the Triforce is split into it's 3 parts, however at the end of ALttP it is whole. Furthering this, ALBW is stated canonically to be set hundreds of years after ALttP and it also depicts a whole Triforce. Plus, the land has not changed much since ALttP so it must take place a considerable amount of time prior to Loz/AoL.

4) The Triforce has not been depicted as fragmented since OoT, but it was said to be split in the past before the events of LoZ.

5) The Triforce parts were hidden away immediately after they were split not allowing for them to be reassembled before LoZ/AoL.

Therefore, I can say for sure that OoX/LA Link is definitely not the same person as ALttP Link and that OoX/LA can only really fit in the decline timeline after AoL without forcing some retcons. However the land is mostly the same so it must not take place nearly as far in the future as LoZ/AoL.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 12:42:16 AM by Inccubus »
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Legend of Zelda Hyrule Historia timelines explained
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 02:02:16 AM »
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Agreed.

I have a different take on some of the placements as well.
What do you think about this idea.
It's rather simplistic and lacks some really concrete evidence, however...

Simply put, OoA/OoS and LA take place after AoL not after ALttP.

My reasoning:

1) The idea that the Link from LA is the same one from ALttP is wrong. The Link in LA is simply stated to have previously defeated Ganon. At the time the only logical choice was the ALttP Link because there were no other games that matched. The other thing that is cited as evidence is that in the BS AST game Zelda states that the Link from ALttP is away from Hyrule on a training mission. It is assumed this training mission is LA, but AST isn't itself canon anyway.

Firstly, much as I don't necessarily agree with its lack of reasoning, I'm still following the HH timeline especially in terms of which games are included. This is not to say I don't believe the timeline must be 100% correct and isn't subject to change, however, HH's timeline did not include BS LOZ, KNS (interquel of ALTTP>LOZ which deals with Ganon's resurrection and the power source being Death Mountain) or the ALTTP component of ALTTPFS which includes the Temple of the Four Sword in the Darkworld's Pyramid.

Having said this, the games still need to be taken somewhat in context. I do believe that OOX involves loose placement at best, as did initially all the Capcom co-developed Zelda games.
Commenting on what you've said as well as the placement of OOX/ LA, these factors need to be considered:
- It has to be a Link with a Triforce symbol on his hand; having acquired either part or all of the Triforce previously.
- Link and Zelda's designs/ attire in OOX and ALBW are very similar
- Imo the Triforce is not split, it is presented on 3 separate pedestals rotating in unison which actually means it is whole. (Remember that if it splits, it goes into the bodies/wielded by the spirit of 3 different people who believe in those virtues the most) The same behaviour of the Triforce is shown in AOL's ending when Link awakens Sleeping Zelda, the pieces move in unison. In fact the only time they seem to be together and static is on/ around the point where the wielder (Link, King, Ganon, etc) is going to make a wish.
- The ending strongly alludes to LA occurring directly after OOX
- LA imo is strongly suggested to occur after ALTTP. Environment/ Landscape/ familiar areas being one reason, but the final form of the "Nightmare" being the other, whereby both Ganon and Agahnim's forms can be seen.
- In LA the people "feared Ganon's return" so Link went on a training expedition. In context of OOX, Ganon was nearly resurrected - although incompletely by Twinrova - thereby affirming the concerns of the Hyruleans.
- The Essence of the Triforce in ALTTP tells Link that Ganon has been completely destroyed, thus there should be no reason for him to return. In OOX he returns as a 'beast' with little intelligence due to the ritual (last flame of despair) not being lit by the use of Zelda's body (vessel).

The placement of OOX prior to ALBW actually makes a case as to why Ganon would be able to return by ALBW, albeit seeming mindless and of less substance when he's brought back by Yuga. This also seems to be in spirit form moreso than physical form as the Triforce of Power is seen floating outside of his "body" (or what's left of it) with Yuga absorbing both the Triforce of Power and Ganon's remaining power.(re-affirmed by HH by the time of LOZ to be "bereft of intelligence")

OOX's placement has issues to begin with, Link and Zelda don't seem to know one another, and Link is seen riding on Epona at the opening sequence of OOX. Through out LOZ>AOL Link met 2 different Zeldas, placing it after AOL although Link has the Triforce insignia also makes this less likely imo.

I can't personally ignore the connections to LA mainly feeding from the ending and Ganon's half-assed resurrection. The only other place I could want to place OOX would be after TP on the Child Timeline. In the ending of TP/ Opening of OOX:
- Link is riding a horse away from Hyrule (TP) but toward Hyrule (OOX)
- The Triforce is unified in Hyrule Castle (implied in TP by the last screenshot and evident in OOX)
- Both placements of the game explain Ganon's ability to return after an incomplete resurrection (where this falls apart being placed TP>OOX>FSA is that Ganon already has a Trident in OOX, where as the Trident in FSA is a massive plotpoint and there is a carving in the Arbiter's ground alluding to 'Ganon' the beast next to 'The Trident', implying connections to FSA. This as well as FSA's Ganondorf being thought to be a new Gerudo King although never seen in Gerudo form.

If anything I'm more inclined to believe that since Link and Zelda didn't know each other, OOX>LA Link may be ALTTP Link's descendant. The strongest placement still seems to be ALTTP>>>OOX>LA>>>ALBW>>LOZ>AOL
This would also account for why the "Noble Sword" is not the true Master Sword (which remained in the Lost Woods between ALTTP>ALBW), why after the true OOX ending the triforce 'separated' as it also did in ALTTP's ending post-credits rolling, why the Noble Sword is featured on LOZ's title screen and why only the Silver Arrow (not the true Master Sword) is required to defeat Ganon by the time of LOZ.

2) LA has been concretely placed as the sequel to the Oracle games via the ending depicting Link sailing back to Hyrule in a ship that is very similar to the one from LA.
Agreed

3) At the beginning of OoX the Triforce is split into it's 3 parts, however at the end of ALttP it is whole.
It's not split, it's represented as 3 individual pieces acting in unison.
Watch the ALTTP ending, the "Essence of the Triforce" rotates as 3 separate pieces prior to assembling in static and unified formation for Link to make his wish.
It's to emphasise the sentience of The 3 Goddesses who created the Triforce to begin with imo, if split one will not see the Triforce pieces acting as one united force.
As per the prologue of OOX's text, the Triforce's essence clearly states "Please accept OUR quest, Hero..."
At the end of the game, the Triforce disappears/ flies off as 3 winged entities, again in unison.
What happens after this must be as per ALBW's backstory where it states that over time the 3 pieces went to:
1) The Royal Family (Zelda)
2) Ganondorf ("sealed in darkness" at that time)
3) The heart of the Hero eternal (Link)

Furthering this, ALBW is stated canonically to be set hundreds of years after ALttP and it also depicts a whole Triforce. Plus, the land has not changed much since ALttP so it must take place a considerable amount of time prior to Loz/AoL.

ALBW does happens hundreds of years post ALTTP, OOX doesn't occur in Hyrule, it takes place in Holodrum and Labrynna. What it does do is explain where all the races such as the Gorons and River Zoras went to post OOT.

I have my own theory that LOZ>AOL may not be the Hyrule we've known from ALTTP/ALBW. It is now known that Ganon perished in Lorule, Lorule and Hyrule were seemingly indefinitely sealed from one another with the last of the magic in Ravio's bracelet.

Side note: As crazy as it sounds I believe that LOZ> AOL might actually take place in Lorule. I'm not certain how much I should be posting about this because it's pretty outlandish, but Lorule wanted nothing more than to be just like Hyrule i.e. prosperous. It would not shock me if Ravio and Hilda's final wish which brings Lorule into prosperity was to become like Hyrule, basically becoming Hyrule, including the 2 of them becoming like Link and Zelda. Ravio was so pleased to meet Link being a real Hero, and judging by his journal entries and ALBW's ending he was troubled by not being able to be Hilda's hero himself. Hilda finally saw the error of her ways due to Ravio's wisdom and wanted to do the right thing by Hyrule, she realised her acts were negatively impacting Hyrule's kingdom and wanted nothing more than for her own kingdom to prosper.

However due to the presence of Ganondorf, lack of anything such as a Master Sword (to repel evil) and the people's lust for the new Triforce, The King had to take drastic measures in separating them. This batshit crazy theory may also account for why the Lorulians (now Hyruleans) lack a Master Sword, any reference in their culture/ history to the Goddesses (having crucifixes on their shields/ tombs), why the vast amount of ocean seemingly filled all of the massive fissures which in ALBW divided the separate areas of Lorule (part of Ravio/ Hilda's wish?), why the Triforce of Power in LOZ (in the title screen and within Ganon's ashes) are inverted, and why the naming tradition of "Zelda" became so important, as it would've previously been something else - Hilda. It seems every other Princess in Hyrule is called Zelda anyway (minus Hytopia), therefore the naming tradition makes more sense if it's not been a set standard.

4) The Triforce has not been depicted as fragmented since OoT, but it was said to be split in the past before the events of LoZ.

It was only split upon OOT Ganondorf touching it, but in this timeline OOT>>>AOL, Ganon unified it during his final battle with the Hero of Time, because he and Zelda were defeated.

Post ALBW it is unified, 'The King' of AOL's backstory in the manual is the one who split the Triforce into 3 cast a spell upon Hyrule that a Hero with the Triforce marking would appear, and hid the Triforce of Courage in the Valley of Death.

5) The Triforce parts were hidden away immediately after they were split not allowing for them to be reassembled before LoZ/AoL.

See the point above, the Triforce was assembled prior to LOZ>AOL, during AOL's backstory.

Therefore, I can say for sure that OoX/LA Link is definitely not the same person as ALttP Link and that OoX/LA can only really fit in the decline timeline after AoL without forcing some retcons. However the land is mostly the same so it must not take place nearly as far in the future as LoZ/AoL.

As stated above it's more than likely a descendant of ALTTP Link imo or himself with minor retcons. Changing this to post LOZ despite my own personal theories, doesn't really add substance or logic to the Downfall Timeline. I'm more inclined to leave them where they are with reasons as stated above which imo correlate to their position more strongly than shifting them.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 02:26:49 AM by zangetsu468 »
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Offline Inccubus

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Re: Legend of Zelda Hyrule Historia timelines explained
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 03:47:16 AM »
0
OK, I can see your point. I did kinda had the thought in the back of my mind about the Triforce parts not needing to be fused in order to be considered "together". I also forgot to mention about Link and Zelda not knowing each other in OoX. I think that is the definite nail in the coffin for LA Link and ALttP Link being the same.
So ALttP ... OoX >> LA ... ALttP2 >> TFH ... LoZ >> AoL seems to make perfect sense to me now.

LoZ & AoL being part of Lorule is definitely outlandish, but it is an interesting thought, though.

On an unrelated note, there is something I have been wanting to keep away from in these theories now that TFH is confirmed to take place soon after ALBW. Namely, the usage of art style in helping to place the games. It has no bearing any more to a great extent as the toon style Link in TFH was stated to be the same person as the Z3 style Link from ALBW.

TFH also brings into question other aspects of this timeline. For example it is stated that prior to LoZ the land of Hyrule has not been a unified country for a long time. How far back could this be? I mean the actual world you can explore in ALttP is not that expansive looking. In fact it looks like a small kingdom already with only one village really. Then in OoX we go to two other places that are not part of the Kingdom, but are Labrynna and Holodrum still part of the land of Hyrule? TFH depicts another relatively nearby kingdom as well. Is the whole planet technically the world of Hyrule? Does that make Termina and Lorule which are said to both be parallel worlds other planets or other universes entirely?

Another idea I've had in my head that I'd like some input on is the placement of tMC, FSA, and FS not jiving well with me. Their placement just seems kind of arbitrary. And there doesn't seem to be much of a coherent reason for the Light Force to be present.

Let's take Minish Cap. The backstory mentions how the previous hero was called the Hero of Man. Why? Why in a world that has the Triforce, the Golden Goddesses, and the Master Sword would there need to be a Hero of Man? I submit that in fact it is because they are no longer around. The explanation that the Triforce is just sealed away is super flimsy. When there is a need to save Hyrule in every other occasion the Hero is always sent to gain the power of the Triforce. What is so different about this time? So if it was me, I would have placed tMC & FS after ST in the adult timeline. You have a new land of Hyrule, you have force gems, the Master Sword is at the bottom of the ocean, and the Triforce is gone.

As for FSA, aside from the really weak connection of the Twili to the Shadow tribe in TP this placement seems even more arbitrary and only really seems to serve to have something-anything else in the child timeline besides MM & TP. Setting aside the whole idea that the game was originally intended to be a depiction of the Sealing War from the backstory of ALttP, it shares very little in common with the child timeline and most of the connections have been proven false and the product of inaccurate translation/localization. First off the kanji used to name the Twili and the Shadow Tribe are different in the original Japanese versions. While, the Shadow Tribe does enter Hyrule via a mirror it is not the same as the Mirror of Twilight which was irreparably destroyed by Midna at the end of TP. The Ganondorf in FSA is a reincarnation of the original. And again, the Master Sword and Triforce are inexplicably missing. The land is very different in layout from most previous games other than FS which it only has a passing resemblance to.

So this is what I think...

Demon War >> SS ... Hyrule Kingdom Established ... Hyrule Unification War >> OoT

Original Timeline: Sealing War ... ALttP ... OoX >> LA ... ALBW >> TFH ... LoZ >> AoL

Child Timeline: Hyrule-Gerudo War >> MM ... TP

Adult Timeline: Great Flood of Hyrule ... WW >> PH ... ST ... tMC >> FS ... FSA

Also, I had a thought about the OoT prologue idea as presented by Vortexxy. What if Link didn't face Ganon as a child at all, and the reason he is absent to stop Ganon is that without the direct support of Zelda and Impa Link instead joins the royal guard during the years that Ganon is searching for a way into the Sacred Realm? Link then eventually becomes a knight and a few years later is actually present for the Imprisoning War scenario as a Knight of Hyrule?
If nothing else it would make a cool hack for OoT.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 04:48:03 AM by Inccubus »
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Legend of Zelda Hyrule Historia timelines explained
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 07:35:55 AM »
0
OK, I can see your point. I did kinda had the thought in the back of my mind about the Triforce parts not needing to be fused in order to be considered "together". I also forgot to mention about Link and Zelda not knowing each other in OoX. I think that is the definite nail in the coffin for LA Link and ALttP Link being the same.
So ALttP ... OoX >> LA ... ALttP2 >> TFH ... LoZ >> AoL seems to make perfect sense to me now.

Agreed, it's actually quite hard to slice any other way.

LoZ & AoL being part of Lorule is definitely outlandish, but it is an interesting thought, though.

I've once theorised that New Hyrule's Crest (upside down triangle) + The old Triforce was adopted along with the terms Hyrule + Lokomo = "Lorule", which was probably more outlandish considering my theory that Hilda's ancestors destroying the Triforce was actually WW's backstory of the KORL's wish being to drown Hyrule and destroy the Triforce in the process... *takes a breath*

This theory was too hard to make work because Lorule runs alongside Hyrule, thus the flood would have wiped it out. So in hindsight, not so outlandish. The other theory is that Hyrule and Lorule eventually merge post ALBW.

My final theory would be that Hilda and Ravio or their descendants down the line use the Triforce to wish a revived Ganon back to the land from whence he came, thus he comes back into Hyrule without warning and this is why his LOZ resurrection can not be explained.

On an unrelated note, there is something I have been wanting to keep away from in these theories now that TFH is confirmed to take place soon after ALBW. Namely, the usage of art style in helping to place the games. It has no bearing any more to a great extent as the toon style Link in TFH was stated to be the same person as the Z3 style Link from ALBW.

I understand, I wasn't actually referring so much to the art style as I should have been to the attire of Zelda and Link. I wanted to point out that they are garbed the same way or very similar to OOX. However I will note originally that ALBW's art reflected ALTTP moreso, but now it seems to be a mediation between ALTTP/OOX which leads me to believe there was a reason behind this. This decision makes sense as it was a game made mainly for hardcore Zelda fans.

I actually believe TFH's art direction is targeted toward a younger audience/ trying to win younger fans over/ more colourful and iconic than say ALBW. The canon of the plot seems to follow suit, being the most simple of the Zelda series in nature. It's a smart business decision imo, not that I love the art style.

TFH also brings into question other aspects of this timeline. For example it is stated that prior to LoZ the land of Hyrule has not been a unified country for a long time. How far back could this be? I mean the actual world you can explore in ALttP is not that expansive looking. In fact it looks like a small kingdom already with only one village really. Then in OoX we go to two other places that are not part of the Kingdom, but are Labrynna and Holodrum still part of the land of Hyrule? TFH depicts another relatively nearby kingdom as well. Is the whole planet technically the world of Hyrule? Does that make Termina and Lorule which are said to both be parallel worlds other planets or other universes entirely?

Here's my take:
                                 ?>Land of Termina>Lands of Termina (MM)
                                               |
                                      Lost Woods
                                               |
World of Hyrule (planet)>Land of Hyrule(main kingdom)/Skyloft>Lands of Hyrule(OOT/ALTTP etc)>Other Kingdoms (OOX, TFH)
         |
Sacred Realm(Hyrule)
{torn fabric of space}
Sacred Realm(Lorule)
         |
World of Lorule (planet)>Land of Lorule(main kingdom)>etc


Another idea I've had in my head that I'd like some input on is the placement of tMC, FSA, and FS not jiving well with me. Their placement just seems kind of arbitrary. And there doesn't seem to be much of a coherent reason for the Light Force to be present.

Their placement is arbitrary aside from TMC. MC's backstory is quite important, it shows in game how all the monsters found in OOT were let loose into Hyrule. It shows a pre-exisitng Sky Temple/ city as well as what became of the Loft Wings. Google OOT bazaar and you'll also notice that there are wanted posters of Vaati in his final form from TMC. Hence its placement is well established, regardless of anyone's opinion of the Light force.

Let's take Minish Cap. The backstory mentions how the previous hero was called the Hero of Man. Why? Why in a world that has the Triforce, the Golden Goddesses, and the Master Sword would there need to be a Hero of Man? I submit that in fact it is because they are no longer around. The explanation that the Triforce is just sealed away is super flimsy. When there is a need to save Hyrule in every other occasion the Hero is always sent to gain the power of the Triforce. What is so different about this time? So if it was me, I would have placed tMC & FS after ST in the adult timeline. You have a new land of Hyrule, you have force gems, the Master Sword is at the bottom of the ocean, and the Triforce is gone.
As stated in the prevous point TMC's placement (out of the Capcom games) is crucial.
The Hero of Men is more than likely the King of Hyrule or his predecessor/ancestor who was also a King of Hyrule. Why?
Study the text in TMC's prologue:
-The Kingdom was doomed
-A hero emerged
-He was passed the Picori Blade and the "Light Force"
-With Wisdom and Courage he drove away the evil
-Chest of Evil yadayada and so forth, we arrive at TMC

Wisdom and Courage are imo blatant references to the Triforce pieces. (read below for more info)

The Lightforce was passed down to Zelda from said hero of men/ King (originally inherited from The Picori) via Royal Lineage and numerous things hint at this. According to the FS series every being has "force" (translated to force gems in English). Prior to it being known that Zelda was Goddess Hylia, it was thought (and perhaps still rightly so) that the Light Force was either the Triforce of Wisdom itself or the "force" that allowed Zelda to inherit the Triforce of Wisdom. Whatever the case may be, the Light Force is what sets Princess Zelda apart from others. Personally I believe it's the equivalent of 1 of the "Sacred Flames" - of Wisdom (from SS) which is an actual virtue of the Triforce itself. (From SS we can ascertain that if one has these 3 virtues, their heart is balanced enough to wield the entire Triforce without it splitting).

In both OOX and ST and SS, Zelda's (Hylia's) 'vessel' was required for the Demon King's "complete resurrection". TMC's explanation was The Light Force, SS' explanation was that Zelda was previously a Goddess who later incarnated as a mortal. Regardless this is all linked (bad fuckin pun right there!) to Zelda's mystic character and why she is who she is.

Back to Wisdom and Courage, if Wisdom refers to the Light Force and the HOM had Courage where did he obtain it? It was either from the Sacred Flame (Virtue) of Courage or the Triforce of Courage. What's missing in this scene? We have a hero, 2/3 pieces of the Triforce, Hyrule on the brink of doom (completely reversed by the time of TMC) and demons running rampant through the land... (Sounding a LOT like LOZ's plot right now) we're missing:
- A Demon King
- The Triforce of Power
As noted from previous Zelda entries = Courage+Wisdom>>>Power, sometimes it takes less than this (eg. ALTTP)

This is perhaps the first encounter with a Demon King who inherited the Triforce of Power post-SS. This makes sense because the Demon King's obtaining the Triforce would have split, the Hero inherited the ToC and someone in the Picori kingdom inherited the ToW which they bestowed to the Hero. This as well as a blade which had magical properties and potentially allowed the Hero to split himself into 4 beings. The rest is history. Potentially this will be Zelda Wii U's plot in an indirect manner, the first Demon King's story being told. 

As for FSA, aside from the really weak connection of the Twili to the Shadow tribe in TP this placement seems even more arbitrary and only really seems to serve to have something-anything else in the child timeline besides MM & TP. Setting aside the whole idea that the game was originally intended to be a depiction of the Sealing War from the backstory of ALttP, it shares very little in common with the child timeline and most of the connections have been proven false and the product of inaccurate translation/localization. First off the kanji used to name the Twili and the Shadow Tribe are different in the original Japanese versions. While, the Shadow Tribe does enter Hyrule via a mirror it is not the same as the Mirror of Twilight which was irreparably destroyed by Midna at the end of TP. The Ganondorf in FSA is a reincarnation of the original. And again, the Master Sword and Triforce are inexplicably missing. The land is very different in layout from most previous games other than FS which it only has a passing resemblance to.
Not going to comment because it's common knowledge Miyamoto shoe-horned this TP>FSA connection in. If anything I'd prefer FSA just happen prior to ALTTP where it damn well belongs. Because it's at the end of a timeline I feel it's a bit of a "we don't give a fuck" move. Given ST's "Force" (force gem) crest and multiplayer mode it's quite obvious where the FS games (aside from TMC) were supposed to go. My only thought it that they wanted to disassociate "New Hyrule" from previous iterations for whatever reason, which is why they also made the Demon King Malladus rather than Ganon.
So this is what I think...

Demon War >> SS ... Hyrule Kingdom Established ... Hyrule Unification War >> OoT

Original Timeline: Sealing War ... ALttP ... OoX >> LA ... ALBW >> TFH ... LoZ >> AoL

Child Timeline: Hyrule-Gerudo War >> MM ... TP

Adult Timeline: Great Flood of Hyrule ... WW >> PH ... ST ... tMC >> FS ... FSA
Aside from TMC I don't really have issues with this.
But then again I also used believe that any Links wielding the Four Sword/ Picori Blade (starting at the Hero of Men) were of Royal lineage, where as Links wielding the Master Sword were the lineage of the Goddess' Chosen Hero.
When the timeline was split into 2 this would have made sense and potentially explained why Link in AOL's 'vessel' was required to resurrect Ganon, as Zelda's has been several times.

Now that the timeline is split into 3 it's complicating these types of sub theories a bit more.

Also, I had a thought about the OoT prologue idea as presented by Vortexxy. What if Link didn't face Ganon as a child at all, and the reason he is absent to stop Ganon is that without the direct support of Zelda and Impa Link instead joins the royal guard during the years that Ganon is searching for a way into the Sacred Realm? Link then eventually becomes a knight and a few years later is actually present for the Imprisoning War scenario as a Knight of Hyrule?
Yeah that doesn't really work in my eyes, for a Zelda 3 pronged timeline to work you need to have 3 outcomes i.e.
-The hero has to lose at least once, then either lose again/ split the timeline
-The hero has to split the timeline, then either lose again/ split the timeline
In my hypothesised timeline
1) Point A: Child Link loses to Ganondorf, but Zelda sends him back to Point B = Downfall timeline
2) Point B: Adult Link defeats Ganondorf, but Zelda send him back to before Point B = Adult timeline
3) Before Point B: Child Link warns Zelda about (2) and goes looking for Navi = Child Timeline

If nothing else it would make a cool hack for OoT.
I love a good hack!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64        ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE     RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS
                                                                          v
                                                                          BE>*
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

 

anything