Topic: What marks a person as a Dark Lord Candidate?

[theplottwist]

Damn, why these epic arguments happen when I'm not around.

Shaft never says he's outright controlling Richter. He admits to influencing, which is easy enough and he probably could have done so without magic (never underestimate an evil psychiatrist) but he was never in 1 to 1 control of Richter's actions -- Shaft may be powerful and talented but in order to assume direct control of every little thing a man does requires that all your attention be paid to that man unless he just kind of stows Richter in a cupboard when he's not using him. If you aren't paying attention to your remote control car, you're not controlling it and it will crash.

OK, I know this was argued already but Shaft DID admit to controlling Richter. There is no mention of "influencing" but there is outright "controlling" mentioned:



From SotN in english.



From the Retranslated version.

Shaft would only do what was needed to ensure Richter stayed the course and remained under the effects of indoctrination, but would have left him a certain degree of autonomy so he could focus on other designs. Furthermore, Shaft is not Richter, and doesn't have Richter's skills. To assume direct 1 to 1 command of Richter's actions would compromise his usefulness as Shaft would never be able to control Richter as effectively in a fight as Richter could himself.

I believe this kinda responds itself. Shaft could control him for everything else, but for fighting leave his mind to work alone.

Richter fully admits to be carrying on a ritual to bring Dracula back "so the battle can last for eternity!" and, if you have the Holy Glasses equipped before you enter his room, Alucard suspects that this is a very out-of-place thing for him to say.

Richter is being controlled, and I suspect we've been talking to Shaft all along before the orb is shattered. He's carrying on the ritual through Richter.

Also, you said Richter being controlled in battle means that he'll fight like shit because Shaft doesn't know how to fight like him: This is the PERFECT explanation for how Alucard survived long enough to shatter the orb - Richter was fighting like crap.

Again, you guys LOVE to see patterns where none need exist; Richter isn't being directly controlled because he doesn't have to be.

No one is "seeing patterns". As I have shown above, it's stated plain as day that Richter is being controlled.

Meatpuppeting the Belmont (dibs on that as a band name, btw) makes absolutely zero sense as it leaves Shaft no capacity to actually revive Dracula.

Unless, as I said above and Richter's dialogue confirms, Shaft is conducting the ritual using Richter's hands. "He" admits to be  doing it to revive Dracula, not for any other reason.



From the PSP version. He says the exact same thing in all three versions.

A metaphysical expression meant to discuss whether God could be proven by reason alone, and has little if anything to do on the concept of Gameplay and Story Segregation, which the save points would fall under.

Occam's Razor is applied to every instance of inferential reasoning. It's a key piece of critical thinking and skeptcism. Can be applied to God claims, can be applied to stories and their mechanics.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

PlotTwist, they happened at about 3 AM my time, so that's probably why. I stay up a lot of late nights.

Shifting gears off of Richter Belmont in this thread (forever and ever), I want to talk a little about Gabriel Belmont and HIS Castle, as the process of mastery of said Castle seems to be almost the same from what few details we can gather about both castles.

Castlevania is only suggested as being sentient. We do know it's clearly alive (there's far too much evidence to support that and even I would never dispute it), but the structure itself is portrayed oddly in terms of its loyalties.

(Also: I am discussing the loyalties of a predominantly stone and wooden structure to an undead man. There go my chances of ever being the star of a collegiate debate team.)

The Castle in Lords 2 overwhelmingly states its bunny-boiler-level loyalty to Dracul, to the level that it will actively attempt to murder anybody seen helping him attempt to seperate himself from the Castle. But Castlevania does not -- it even obeys the will of several others at times when Dracula is sealed/indisposed. It leaves me wondering just how "loyal" the main Castle is to a given Dark Lord.

Further postulation: is commanding the Castle necessarily a prerequisite for becoming the Dark Lord?

[theplottwist]

OK so, by what I understand from Dracula's Castle:

Dracula's Castle is a manifestation of Dracula's power and symbol of it. It was built by Dracula himself, as per the japanese manual of Castlevania Adventure. And as we know, the castle's existence is powered by chaos.

Now, Dracula having built it, I do not believe ownership of the castle -- as a structure -- is needed to assert one's position as the Dark Lord.

HOWEVER, the castle is not a simple structure - it is deeply connected to Chaos. Shouldering chaos' forces IS needed if one wishes to succeed Dracula's position. This is stated in the light novel.

So, the final conclusion: If one wishes to become the Dark Lord, he needs to control chaos. And it seems that taking over Dracula's Castle is the easiest path to do so, thought not the only one.

The pathway to chaos inside the castle appears to be the only pathway in existence. However, as Dmitrii states, one doesn't need to have inherited anything from Dracula. They only need to control the forces of chaos -- and those would be the demons.

So, while one can become the Dark Lord by sitting on Dracula's throne -- as Death puts bluntly on the novel -- it appears that there are alternatives, though I think this would be a much preferred method.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Hmmm.

I'll grant that the passage to Chaos seen in the Castle is the only one known, but there are probably others. I'd imagine they'd crop up in places where misery and evil became concentrated, like in Auchwitz or Poveiglia Island.

Kudos if you know about Poveiglia Island without googling it.

[theplottwist]

Another thing I'd like to add to your point of there being "other pathways":

The castle of DoS is a replica of Dracula's Castle in that it's existence is powered by a stream of negative energy coming from the Abyss, which is not Chaos. It's a replica in the "ingredients used to build" sense, and not in the "structure" sense -- though you can identify structural similarities.

So, while it's not a pathway to Chaos, it is a pathway to somewhere where great amounts of dark energy comes from. This goes to show that a "demon castle" doesn't necessarily need to be powered by THE chaos contained in Dracula's Castle.

[Lelygax]

The novel says that chaos is what gives energy for Dracula and monsters, also creating them, not that Dracula controls chaos. Controlling chaos is what Olrox wanted to do.

About entrances to chaos, Castlevania allows it because its a "spiritual world" as said by Arikado and a stream of chaos exist, maybe sending energy to the castle and Dracula, as shown here:


So we can deduce that its impossible to reach chaos without a similar spiritual world, this place also needs to already be connected to chaos and you will need to be allowed. If I understood it right it was only possible to Soma reach chaos because Castlevania is a reflection of Dracula's spirit (Harmony of Dissonance and the novel only implies even more that it reflects the soul or will of who invokes it) that was connected by chaos already. So if we think this way, anyone, anywhere, can reach chaos spiritually (maybe meditating?).

Death could traverse to chaos physically like Soma could in Castlevania and recharge his batteries because well... Its fucking Death, he can traverse through dimensions and the spiritual world easily since its part of his job.

So in the end its like plottwist said, you can't reach chaos, but you can reach similar places that gives you a lot of dark energy that in the end comes from chaos anyway. Its like buying a PS4 on Walmart, you got one PS4 made by Sony, but not directly at Sony.

[theplottwist]

About entrances to chaos, Castlevania allows it because its a "spiritual world" as said by Arikado and a stream of chaos exist, maybe sending energy to the castle and Dracula, as shown here:

So we can deduce that its impossible to reach chaos without a similar spiritual world, this place also needs to already be connected to chaos and you will need to be allowed. If I understood it right it was only possible to Soma reach chaos because Castlevania is a reflection of Dracula's spirit (Harmony of Dissonance and the novel only implies even more that it reflects the soul or will of who invokes it) that was connected by chaos already. So if we think this way, anyone, anywhere, can reach chaos spiritually (maybe meditating?).

OK I think you misunderstood this line.

Arikado's point is that the castle is made from Dracula's magic, which in turn comes from chaos -- therefore it is a spiritual world.

So, if it is made from chaos, then there is an entrance to chaos that feeds the castle's existence. The entrance to chaos is not because "it's a spiritual world" but because it is made from chaos which turns it into a spiritual world. It's the other way around.

Death could traverse to chaos physically like Soma could in Castlevania and recharge his batteries because well... Its fucking Death, he can traverse through dimensions and the spiritual world easily since its part of his job.

I'm thinking he doesn't need to "traverse". It's more like he's connected to it and the stream of energy is constant. Once he's defeated, as its said in the novel, his soul sinks into chaos to be reborn later when Dracula's return draws near.

Also, Death is not THE concept of death given enbodiment. Death is a creature born from the human-death portion of chaos (again explained in the novel) and is a Shinigami - he can get people to die, but he can't exactly kill you if you resist. Against THE concept of death as a natural ocurrence there is nothing you can do.

Just wanted to point these things out.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Death in Castlevania is more like the villain from "The Frighteners". He's not ACTUALLY the grim reaper, he just styles himself like that for effect.

[Lelygax]

OK I think you misunderstood this line.

Arikado's point is that the castle is made from Dracula's magic, which in turn comes from chaos -- therefore it is a spiritual world.

Yes, I understood this, even so thanks. But it fueled by chaos doesn't automatically makes it a spiritual world. I think its because of Dracula's magic (we don't need to say again and again that Dracula's magic come from chaos right? xD) making a castle that should've crumbled thousand years ago back to "life" (Alucard says in SotN that it is a creature of chaos).Or you are trying to tell me that everything fueled by chaos only exists on the spiritual world?

So, if it is made from chaos, then there is an entrance to chaos that feeds the castle's existence. The entrance to chaos is not because "it's a spiritual world" but because it is made from chaos which turns it into a spiritual world. It's the other way around.

Except I think not. Yes its power comes from chaos, but before it passes by Dracula since Arikado says "This castle is a product of Dracula's magic." like you said before, if we take the entire conversation instead of line by line we can see that Soma doesn't go cut the connection of chaos with the castle, he goes cut the connection of chaos with his own soul. If by cutting the connection with the castle also cuts the connection with his soul it means that the castle is a reflection of his soul!

The meaning of only him being able to enter the chaos realm using the castle implies that only him can change his soul, like a symbolic thing. An explanation to why the castle is a "spiritual world" can be that the castle is also dead inside the eclipse, since Dracula is dead for good (I know this can sound crazy).

I'm thinking he doesn't need to "traverse". It's more like he's connected to it and the stream of energy is constant. Once he's defeated, as its said in the novel, his soul sinks into chaos to be reborn later when Dracula's return draws near.

Also, Death is not THE concept of death given enbodiment. Death is a creature born from the human-death portion of chaos (again explained in the novel) and is a Shinigami - he can get people to die, but he can't exactly kill you if you resist. Against THE concept of death as a natural ocurrence there is nothing you can do.

Just wanted to point these things out.

I know that Death isn't THE Death, even so it needs to bring these souls harvested to another place, since he is a shinigami. I was not exactly talking about when he is defeated, but about when he prepares before going to check the castle, what happened is that I remember it wrong, here is the correct part:

Death silently started moving towards the center of darkness.
He swore allegiance to his master in the distant past.
Now, he has to carry out his allegiance and in preparation for that, he allowed himself to fill up with darkness.

I was darkness, not chaos, woops
I wasn't saying that he needs to draw energy manually each time, I understood as if he was doing that to prepare himself for something extreme (that thankfully saved him later)

P.S: While a lot of people (including me) says that Death isn't THE Death, he implies otherwise near the end of the novel. But lets not think too much about that, at least not in this thread...

edit: citations from the novel (since mentioning but doesn't showing material doesn't helps much, its novel is huge after all)

 “Dracula’s castle, in other words is the embodiment of Dracula’s magic, a part of his soul and body, their belief in them being [fallen] and a part of [Genesis}.”

 “What have you misunderstood? I am Death. Human death only comprises a part of chaos..."

[theplottwist]

Except I think not. Yes its power comes from chaos, but before it passes by Dracula since Arikado says "This castle is a product of Dracula's magic." like you said before, if we take the entire conversation instead of line by line we can see that Soma doesn't go cut the connection of chaos with the castle, he goes cut the connection of chaos with his own soul. If by cutting the connection with the castle also cuts the connection with his soul it means that the castle is a reflection of his soul!

Sure, Soma went to cut himself off from chaos, but I don't believe the rest is correct. The castle is clearly shown to be an independent entity from Dracula. So much so that Dracula got separated from the castle in 1999 and the castle kept existing. It's existence doesn't depend on Dracula, it depends on chaos. Cutting Dracula's soul from chaos doesn't cut the castle from chaos.

When Soma cuts the connection between the "evil spirit" and chaos, the castle ceases existing not because "the connection between the castle and chaos was severed", it wasnt. It disappeared because it was resealed in the eclipse by members of the church. If you check the Library in Dawn of Sorrow, it says that the castle is still inside the eclipse waiting for a new master. In the novel, it says right at the beginning that it was resealed right after Soma cut the connection between himself and chaos.

TL;DR: The castle disappearing at the end of Aria is not a consequence of Soma cutting off the connection with chaos. It is simply the castle being resealed inside the eclipse.

edit: citations from the novel (since mentioning but doesn't showing material doesn't helps much, its novel is huge after all)

 “Dracula’s castle, in other words is the embodiment of Dracula’s magic, a part of his soul and body, their belief in them being [fallen] and a part of [Genesis}.”

 “What have you misunderstood? I am Death. Human death only comprises a part of chaos..."

OK, the first citation is not an explanation of what the castle is. It is explaining the belief held by Graham's cult that lead them to become a literal part of the Legion castle. They believed that, if the castle was whole again, THEN his body and soul would return (as Graham, no less) because their belief is that the castle is a part of his body and soul.

And we know they were wrong -- Aria proves it by showing that even with the castle back, Dracula's "body and soul" are not. They exist as separate entities. EVEN THOUGH I agree that the castle is a manifestation of Dracula's magic and is a reflection of his will (and maybe his soul too, why not), I do not agree the castle is "part of his soul" as in "it depends on Dracula's soul to exist". It does not. The castle was separated from Dracula before, and it still existed just fine.

The complete quote:

(click to show/hide)

Those who adhered to Graham Jones were those who were obsessed with the thought of an impactful end.
The world would soon perish. For their fallen neighbors, they would change themselves.
In order to become the body of [god] destroying this unclean world in order to create a new world together with [god].
That kind of thinking influenced this group of fanatics.
Their founder was born on the time that Dracula died and had received a degree of [power]. That was the man named Graham Jones. He had a charisma that attracts people and was practicing real magic.
He as the real dark lord and ----- also as a [fallen] human----- sought to create a paradise [Genesis] which was blindly believed to be possible.
And that blind belief still continued on unchanged even after their founder died.
It was just their story.

“Dracula’s castle, in other words is the embodiment of Dracula’s magic, a part of his soul and body, their belief in them being [fallen] and a part of [Genesis}.”

The second quote, about Death, doesn't imply Death is the embodiment of the concept of death of all things. It implies Death was born from the "human death" part that comprises part of chaos. Like "Paranoia" was probably born out of the "human paranoia" part that comprises chaos.

This explains why Death intends on influencing humans towards death (as a Shinigami does in japanese culture), and not that Death is death as the natural concept.

[Lelygax]

Sure, Soma went to cut himself off from chaos, but I don't believe the rest is correct. The castle is clearly shown to be an independent entity from Dracula. So much so that Dracula got separated from the castle in 1999 and the castle kept existing. It's existence doesn't depend on Dracula, it depends on chaos. Cutting Dracula's soul from chaos doesn't cut the castle from chaos.

When Soma cuts the connection between the "evil spirit" and chaos, the castle ceases existing not because "the connection between the castle and chaos was severed", it wasnt. It disappeared because it was resealed in the eclipse by members of the church. If you check the Library in Dawn of Sorrow, it says that the castle is still inside the eclipse waiting for a new master. In the novel, it says right at the beginning that it was resealed right after Soma cut the connection between himself and chaos.

TL;DR: The castle disappearing at the end of Aria is not a consequence of Soma cutting off the connection with chaos. It is simply the castle being resealed inside the eclipse.

We don't know if the castle crumbled or not at 1999 when he lost his connection with the castle, he could've emerged again inside the eclipse at 2035 like it always does. Also it doesn't depend on Dracula, but depends on Dracula's magic that yes, come from chaos. It seems that Dracula's magic was in Castlevania all these years, we can see that on Aria throne's room dialogue with Arikado, also Graham uses it before us.

I know that Castlevania was never truly destroyed at Aria's ending, but it is a consequence of Soma cutting off the connection and also because the eclipse ended, no need to seal again something that stills sealed. Now I really don't know if Dracula's magic returned to the castle or not after that, or if the castle started to drawn energy directly from chaos from this point on. Surely you can also be right and the castle drawn energy from chaos directly, after Dracula's death.

Even so I see cutting something from chaos as the same of cutting a wire, you can still connect it together again. Thats why I really think that Soma cut Castlevania and his soul from chaos, someone could easily "turn ON" the castle again with a ritual, but it would be still needed to wait an eclipse and it would be inside the eclipse yet.

OK, the first citation is not an explanation of what the castle is. It is explaining the belief held by Graham's cult that lead them to become a literal part of the Legion castle. They believed that, if the castle was whole again, THEN his body and soul would return (as Graham, no less) because their belief is that the castle is a part of his body and soul.

And we know they were wrong -- Aria proves it by showing that even with the castle back, Dracula's "body and soul" are not. They exist as separate entities. EVEN THOUGH I agree that the castle is a manifestation of Dracula's magic and is a reflection of his will (and maybe his soul too, why not), I do not agree the castle is "part of his soul" as in "it depends on Dracula's soul to exist". It does not. The castle was separated from Dracula before, and it still existed just fine.

The complete quote:

(click to show/hide)

Those who adhered to Graham Jones were those who were obsessed with the thought of an impactful end.
The world would soon perish. For their fallen neighbors, they would change themselves.
In order to become the body of [god] destroying this unclean world in order to create a new world together with [god].
That kind of thinking influenced this group of fanatics.
Their founder was born on the time that Dracula died and had received a degree of [power]. That was the man named Graham Jones. He had a charisma that attracts people and was practicing real magic.
He as the real dark lord and ----- also as a [fallen] human----- sought to create a paradise [Genesis] which was blindly believed to be possible.
And that blind belief still continued on unchanged even after their founder died.
It was just their story.

“Dracula’s castle, in other words is the embodiment of Dracula’s magic, a part of his soul and body, their belief in them being [fallen] and a part of [Genesis}.”

The second quote, about Death, doesn't imply Death is the embodiment of the concept of death of all things. It implies Death was born from the "human death" part that comprises part of chaos. Like "Paranoia" was probably born out of the "human paranoia" part that comprises chaos.

This explains why Death intends on influencing humans towards death (as a Shinigami does in japanese culture), and not that Death is death as the natural concept.

Text with "" is spoken by someone, that someone being Olrox, before that it was being really explained only their belief, when Olrox started talking he said the definition of the castle and their belief. Surely it was been proved that Dracula isn't needed anymore to Castlevania exist, and that is exactly why he says that it is a part of his soul and body.

Its highly implied in Aria that Soma isn't whole until he absorbed Dracula's magic from the castle. So it can be a example.

About Death, like I said before I don't think it too, but I know what it implied on the text and it wasn't really it, not at this moment. They could've wrote "god of death/shinigami" like before. He said "Human death" because he was explaining to someone about a certain someone death, chaos come from humans alone and they say human a lot in this novel. It seems to me that Death isn't the "death concept", but really is a embodiment of the concept.

A concept doesn't really need a body to exist, so even if you destroy it, it will still happen, like Paranoia. Its really deep man, thanks for opening my mind even more. That's why I love these debates and conversations. Because if we agree we learn, but even if we disagree we can open more our minds.

I think I don't need to say, but these and future posts are only my opinion.

[Flame]

Id just like to interject and say that gameplay and story need not be exclusive to each other, as far as SotN goes. Death Samus-ing Alucard's gear at the beginning is justification for you to go into the castle unarmed. at which point Alucard has to make do with the stuff in the castle. he also doesnt start with the mist or wolf or bat form, which storywise, could be attributed to just being rusty and having to shake the cobwebs off and relearn it before he fights richter, or he'll get creamed, since he just came out of a really long slumber and Richter is fresh as a cucumber right off of only recently having stormed Castlevania and killed Dracula. And has that nifty ability of making it rain holy water. So the idea of Alucard needing to level up before fighting Richter, so far as Gameplay/story goes, doesnt need to be seperate.

just my 2 cents. It's 2 am right now. Which is making this not make sense anymore.

[X]

We don't know if the castle crumbled or not at 1999

We kinda do actually. IGA stated in an interview (correct me if I'm wrong here) that the castle in 1999 is the exact same castle in AoS. It was not destroyed but sealed away in the eclipse. So in a sense we get to see that same castle in AoS that was around during 1999.